Historian Thomas Zimmer meets a crazed MAGAt in the wild

[Nevilledog]

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Thomas Zimmer
@tzimmer_history
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I’m afraid these dangerous conspiracies are weaponized and shared well beyond what we tend to think of as the far-right. This exact idea – “Heavily armed IRS agents are coming to raid our homes!” – was thrown at me by an elderly lady at the beach (!) yesterday morning. 1/

Ben Collins
@oneunderscore__
Replying to @oneunderscore__
On the far-right, "more IRS" agents doesn't mean more audits of people making more than $400,000, which is what it actually is.

They're expecting doorknock raids for guns at any moment. Not an exaggeration. It's Jade Helm 2.0.
6:10 AM · Aug 12, 2022

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I’m afraid these dangerous conspiracies are weaponized and shared well beyond what we tend to think of as the far-right. This exact idea – “Heavily armed IRS agents are coming to raid our homes!” – was thrown at me by an elderly lady at the beach (!) yesterday morning. 1/
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Let me elaborate on this very unpleasant, unnerving (but, sadly, not surprising!) encounter with a Trumpist in the middle of our family vacation. All the usual caveats regarding anecdotal evidence apply; unfortunately, though, I believe this is still alarmingly instructive. 2/

I want to describe the “conversation” – if it can be called that – in some detail first, because it’s telling how things progressed and escalated; and I’ll then try to reflect on what I think are the takeaways from this encounter and what it says about the political conflict. 3/

Yesterday morning, while chasing seagulls with my two little boys on the beach of an expensive sea resort on the NJ coast, we ran into two elderly ladies who were delighted at the sight of these little human puppies: “Oh, they are adorable!” (They really are.) 4/

Some unsuspicious (at first) small talk unfurled: About life in general and vacationing with two little kids in particular. “Where are you from? You sound Australian,” one of the two, the one who turned out to be MAGA, said; “I wish,” I replied, “but no, I’m German.” 5/

She was ecstatic to hear it; talked about the many trips to Germany with her husband, how they had actually lived in Germany while he had a Fulbright scholarship. “We are both academics,” she emphasized – something that was obviously important to her identity. 6/

“Did you come here on vacation from Germany?” – No, we live in DC, moved over to the States in early 2021. “What is it you do?” - I’m a historian. - “Oh, you certainly chose a historic moment to come to this country! We live in interesting times!” 7/

At that point, the conversation still could have gone in many different directions. Until she said: “I hope you’re teaching your students the Fourth amendment!” - “The Fourth amendment?” I must have said out loud, while already thinking: Oh no… 8/

It was too late. The elderly lady who had been delighted at the sight of my toddler chasing seagulls just minutes earlier was now going off: about the “illegal raid,” what an outrage it was, how shameful, how the country was doomed. 9/

I should have just walked away right at that moment. Why didn’t I? Maybe because of the vestiges of the “respect your elders” dogma that (unfortunately) played such a crucial role in my upbringing; mostly I’m just really bad in social conflict situations with strangers. 10/

Instead of just walking away, I reflexively mentioned something about equality before the law, probable cause, a judge signing off on the warrant. In return, I received a crash course in rightwing conspiratorial talking points and how they relate to each other. 11/

“It was that Epstein judge, did you know that?” the lady said – with that “I’m about to open your eyes to what’s really going on” messianic zeal that conspiratorial thinkers often possess. And she mumbled something about “the Clintons,” because… of course. 12/

The Clintons, by the way, “stole furniture worth tens of thousands from the White House, did you know that?” A crime far worse than taking “some documents that belong to him anyway. Why should he have to give back his letters just because some archivist wants them.” 13/

And anyway, they “invaded his private home,” the now very animated lady continued, “even Melania’s chambers, can you imagine?” That actually made me laugh for a second. Which earned me a really nasty look. Melania’s chambers. Hm. 14/

I tried to build some sort of bridge, I think, maybe lighten the mood, by saying: “Well, if I was hiding evidence, I would certainly try to make it disappear amidst the chaos in the kids’ bedroom!” But she wasn’t having any of it. More nasty looks. 15/

“Why are they going after him, and not Hunter Biden?” – “Hunter Biden?” I heard myself say, reflexively, “We’re talking about the former president. Has Hunter Biden ever held public office?” She gave me the whole “Joe did his bidding… oh, the corruption!” spiel. 16/

“You are from Germany,” she said, “you should know about Hitler and Mussolini, you should be outraged!” I foolishly allowed myself to think: Now we’re talking history, I’m on firm ground: “If you are concerned about the rise of fascism, you’re looking at the wrong side.” 17/

That remark just made her angry, however. “Ah, you only say that because you’re from Germany, and you don’t know what’s going on here…” (I guess the being German thing cut both ways for her: you know from your own history! but you don’t know!) 18/

And that’s when she dropped the IRS bomb on me: “They are arming IRS agents as we speak – they are coming to our houses, they are going to raid our homes, taking away everything!” (Was she talking about wealth? Weapons? I can’t say.) 19/

I must admit I had never heard of this specific conspiracy theory. I was baffled. I said: “Come on now…” That set off her final tirade: “Ah, you’re one of those people, you’re just consuming liberal propaganda, reading from the magic laptop all day…” (whatever that means?) 20/

She was actually yelling at me by that point. On the beach. I basically froze. Thankfully, her friend chimed in: “I think we should probably go this way, and you should go that way.” Yes. And so we did. 21/

To recap what I know about her profile: She was an elderly white person, with an academic background, widely traveled, had lived overseas, and, it can be assumed, reasonably wealthy. This encounter has stuck with me since yesterday, for several reasons: 22/

1) She obviously didn’t fit the ideal of the economically anxious, left behind Trump voter, nor the stereotype of the conspiratorially inclined fringe. These pervasive myths never held up to empirical scrutiny. No one should be surprised that this person supported Trump. 23/

2) What this “conversation” put into stark relief for me is that the idea of “keeping politics out of it,” of deliberately preserving non-political realms in which we can all still come together harmoniously, is simply not plausible – and becoming less plausible every day. 24/

This person was fully politicized. Her interaction with a complete stranger, on the beach, became very political within a few minutes. And it wasn’t the fault of those “woke” activists or those supposedly dangerous trans people – it was all on this resentful senior citizen. 25/

3) Similarly, there just is no “meeting in the middle,” no “finding common ground” with such people. For her, I was the enemy – even though it was the least threatening setting imaginable: I was the dad of that five-year-old who was chasing sea gulls on the beach! 26/

We even *did* start off with some things that should have provided “common ground”: Germany, life in the academia, most of all: kids! And yet, none of that mattered. Because none of that makes the very real conflict at the heart of the political situation go away. 27/

This person wasn’t interested in debate, or a different perspective, or building bridges, or compromise. She wasn’t even interested in just ignoring politics. The only thing she would have accepted from me was compliance, submission. There is no truce to be had. 28/

4) I am amazed (as in: terrified) by the effectiveness of the rightwing information / propaganda machine. This elderly lady had all her talking points ready; it was like someone had briefed her on what the unified response to the “raid” was going to be. And she delivered. 29/

This wasn’t just some crazy-but-harmless old lady. Look at the reactions from Republican officials, listen to Jonathan Turley below (presidents taking furniture!) - the same talking points and strategies of obstruction circulating the whole rightwing spectrum without delay. 30/

5) Probably the most concerning aspect of all: The depth and extent of the Right’s radicalization. This “Armed IRS is coming for you” message is apparently shared by both fascistic militants and this elderly lady. The extremism has quickly spread to the “respectable” spheres. 31/

That doesn’t mean that this lady is herself a member of a violent militia, or that she is about to join the armed revolt. It does mean, however, that she is doing her part to popularize, normalize, legitimize this ideology – and the extremism it animates. 32/

It also means that we are not dealing with fringe phenomena. This IRS thing appears more or less simultaneously in far-right circles – and in the well-respected communities of upstanding, educated, wealthy senior citizens. It’s not a surprise, but a crucial reminder. 33/

No matter where, exactly, such extremist theories originate: They are immediately picked up by the rightwing propaganda machine and transported by leading conservatives and Republican elected officials. 34/

While there are different levels and layers of radicalism on the Trumpian Right, there is no clear line between the “fringe” and the center of conservative politics / social life. It is, at best, a permeable membrane – as it always has been. 35/

6) Here is the rightwing permission structure on full display. Why do people who may find Marjorie Taylor Greene crass still consider her a valuable ally? Why is it not a dealbreaker for more conservatives that the Proud Boyd increasingly act as the GOP’s paramilitary arm? 36/

Well, if the other side really were preparing to send out armed IRS hit squads, would there be anything - very much including the use of political violence - *not* justified in the struggle against such despotic forces? 37/

Once you have convinced yourself and/or your supporters that the other side is scheming to deprive you of what is rightfully yours, any measure you take, regardless of how radical, is justified as an inevitable act of (preemptive) self-defense. 38/

One final thought: In my mind, I keep replaying the encounter, and I’m constantly catching myself trying to figure out what I could have / should have said, better arguments, even more evidence, the perfect way to make my case… It’s not just pointless, it’s misled. 39/

The problem is not just that this particular person obviously wasn’t going to be moved by empirical evidence or by pointing out flaws and inconsistencies in what she was claiming; the very idea that the political conflict is ultimately about better arguments is a myth. 40/

It’s one of the fallacies of which many liberals / lefties – like me! – apparently can’t fully let go. But a fallacy it remains: There was no persuading that person, not by saying the right thing or in the right tone. Because it’s not a contest of ideas or better arguments. 41/

People like me would love it to be a competition of who has the better arguments: That’s the kind of struggle with which we are comfortable, that we believe we can win. But it’s not the kind of conflict in which we find ourselves. Better to accept and grapple with that. /end

[luvs2sing]

1. I worked with a woman like that woman.

I dealt with it by refusing to engage in political talk with her. If she tried to veer a conversation in that direction, I would tell her that I refuse to discuss politics or religion (she was also one of those insane toxic Catholics) in a work setting, and I would walk away. A few times she came to work raving about some crazy thing she heard on talk radio or somewhere..one day it was that WWIII was going to start by the end of the day. I just laughed and told her that was the craziest thing I ever heard and walked away. I dealt with her crap this way for three and a half years before I quit. But she never, ever got me into one of her nutso political arguments.

[Jeebo]

2. It's a virus.

It's not a microbe virus, but a meme virus. It's a plague and it's spreading without any kind of restraint. During Covid at least we had masks, social distancing, and, finally, effective vaccines. But that was in the realm of the spreading microbe. What equivalency do we have in the realm of the spreading meme? That's the problem we face. One thought I have continually about these right wingers is that they are gullible, they're paranoid, they don't have critical thinking skills, they're too easily convinced of outrageous notions. But how can we reveal to them the fact of their own paranoia?

-- Ron

[durablend]

3. Yet some people here think they can be deprogrammed....

[gratuitous]

4. When she got to the Clintons stealing furniture phase

At that point, I'd have had to stop her and say, "You know, my new year's resolution was not to get involved with whackaloons who don't reside in reality. Good-bye and you have a nice day."

[Earth-shine]

5. It's impossible to convince them or compromise with them. We simply must outvote them. nt

[wiggs]

6. great post. K n R. nt