How soon before they start pumping and transferring water from the Great Lakes to the West??

[a kennedy]

Colorado and Arizona i’m sure are eyeballing them.

[samnsara]

1. im in wash state we have plenty of water tyvm :)

[Progressive dog]

2. When hell freezes over

at the earliest.

[geardaddy]

121. This

We'll keep our water here in MN.

[VGNonly]

3. Never

[a kennedy]

4. Wonder if folks would support a water pipeline??

[brush]

7. It might come to that with the accelerating climate change...

wildfires and continuing droughts. If you can pump oil you can pump water.

[multigraincracker]

37. If they can sell us oil by the barrel,

we can sell water by the barrel. We will even sell them 2 of water for 1 of oil.

[NickB79]

10. It would be blown up or shot full of holes

Rightwing extremists in Michigan, or leftwing radical environmentalists, take your pick.

[brush]

42. Nah, people on the left are pro-environment. If the...

western half of the nation is starving for water they'd be in favor of it.

Bothsiderism on DU? Are you new here?

[NickB79]

63. Draining the Great Lakes to irrigate the desert is a pro-environmental position?!?!

No environmentalist favors diverting billions of gallons to the West to grow environmentally devastating cows, lettuce and almonds.

And new here? I was here for Gore V Bush.

[brush]

76. Who said anything about draining the lakes?

One part of the nation helping another part through a drought period is a good thing, and won't drain anything. Droughts don't last forever. We are ONE country, right?

It's not that hard to understand.

[The Revolution]

98. This may last forever

effectively. This may just be the new norm, not a temporary drought period. And the heat is only going to get worse.

Millions of people in Midwest to experience 'extreme heat belt' by 2053: Report

By 2053, 1,023 counties, an area home to more than 107 million Americans and covers a quarter of U.S. land, are expected to see the heat index, or the feels-like temperature, surpass 125 degrees Fahrenheit at least one day a year, according to the report, which was released Monday.

[Demsrule86]

57. Well you know, accidents happen.

[roamer65]

149. Michigan separatists.

If Dump steals another term, we will have them in droves.

[ornotna]

15. It would have to be a huge pipe

Or several huge pipes. And water is very heavy. It would take some very expensive infrastructure to do. Unfortunately there is no easy answer.

[brush]

45. Crude oil is piped and is a least as heavy as water.

Don't underestimate our engineers. They figured out how to build the Transcontinental RR, Hoover Dam, Brooklyn Bridge, Golden Gate and Bay Bridges, Trans-Atlantic cables, put men on the Moon and the Hubble and Webb space telescopes in outer space.

It can be done.

[VGNonly]

72. Oil weighs 6.84 pounds per gallon,

water 8.34.

[brush]

75. Engineers know how to work with that.

Last edited Wed Aug 17, 2022, 02:14 AM - Edit history (1)

[VGNonly]

92. Engineers can change the density

of water/oil...?

[brush]

97. Kind of a silly question. Engineers are problem solvers.

Hoover Damn was thought impossible. There's the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges, the Hubble and Webb space telescopes.

There are couple of engineers on this thread who have said it can be done. Very expensive, but so is climate change and Earth dying of thirst if American states with an abundance of water don't share it with other American states.

So many on this thread sound like republican obstructionists and climate deniers.

[Lancero]

103. And lets not forget another difference between water and oil...

A water pipe springing a leak doesn't have all those pesky environmental issues that a oil pipe leaking would cause.

Oil pipe pops a leak? Poisoned land. Poisoned animals. Cleanup efforts. Extremely bad PR that the company has to deal with. Oil pipelines are difficult and expensive because of how damaging the stuff they move is. It requires a lot of risk mitigation.

Water won't poison the land. Or the animals. And so long as the pipe is run away from cities and towns, cleanup is simple as shit. Just let it evaporate.

Seriously though, piping water is a hell of a lot simpler than piping oil. Just never been worth doing since we used to care about sustainable use of water. Now? Just like the environment, your average person doesn't give half a damn. Bring on the always green grass, even in 100+ weather. Keep those steaks coming. Whats that? Running out of water? What kind of woke liberal climate change crap is that? We ain't gonna run out of water. We can just pipe it in from other states. What? They'll run out of water too? Um... They can pipe back the water we just piped in from them! Yeah! Totally fine, no reason to EVER need to look at just how much water our lifestyles waste.

[brush]

116. Leave it to the problem solvers.

All of that is well and good, but if it came down to it, the government would never let the western part of the nation wither and die of thirst when other states have an abundance.

Good God. It's a no brainer.

[VGNonly]

105. Again, oil is 6.84

water is 8.34. Do you agree with that?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

114. I agree with that,

but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

112. You put a problem before us

I guarantee we'll find a way to solve it, it may be very expensive, as in this case, but if the will, the technology and the money is there, it can be done.

[USALiberal]

115. :-)

[paleotn]

16. Move to where the water is.

We've been doing that as a species for several hundred thousand years.

[Demsrule86]

56. Absolutely not. When are factories were shut down becaues of globalism who helped us?

Detroit and Cleveland were almost destroyed...Gary Indiana...well let's just say the first time I drove through it I wept. An American city destroyed by the greed of the well-to-do...jobs sacrificed so losers like Romney could get rich.

[JustAnotherGen]

155. Nope - not me

[demmiblue]

5. Never. n/t

[Ocelot II]

6. They won't. There's a law called the Great Lakes Compact that prohibits the removal

of large amounts of water from the lakes. There are also a number of probably insurmountable engineering problems involved in moving water in any significant quantities over or under a mountain range.

[Bev54]

22. I am sure there must be some agreement between US and Canada as well.

I know they have a quality water agreement not sure about use.

[Ocelot II]

23. That's part of it.

https://www.protectourgreatlakes.org/compact

[PortTack]

50. Thank the gods for this law.

It’s nonsense be it the Great Lakes or the Mississippi

[Bev54]

64. Thanks

[Model35mech]

24. An agreement with Canada... they struggle to allow water 10 miles from the lake

Waukesha WI has very high levels of radon in the public wells. Toxic levels above federal standards.

It' took a decades long fight to get the Compact to allow water to be diverted to Waukesha, and one of the conditions was RETURNING treated wastewater to the Lake Michigan basin (The Fox river in Waukesha flows into the Illinois, Mississippi and then into the Gulf of Mexico.

The reason the return of wastewater was a deal is that under the Compact any new draws on Lake Michigan must be returned as treated waste water so that there is no/negligible net loss of water.

The cost to pipe water to the west would be staggering, the price to return it to Lake Michigan would be twice staggering

Personally, I think terraforming is a better option. Though desalination of seawater from the Gulf of California may be less radical.

[brush]

48. Lake Michigan is entirely in the US, the only great lake that is.

[VGNonly]

88. Lake Michigan and Huron

are at the same level. Hydrologically they are same lake.

[Model35mech]

136. So what??? The Compact includes it. US REPRESENTATIVES AGREED

to the treaty that created it.

So you can take your very long straw away from Lake Michigan, it will NEVER water golf courses, vegetables, people or cows in the West.

WATER is the ACE-IN-THE-HOLE for the upper midwest. It -IS- the future of our economy. Don't expect any midwestern state to hand it over. In the long run it's worth more than its weight in gold. I tell this over and over and over to my grandchildren as I walk them along Lake Michigan's shore in Milwaukee.

You should really go after the snowbirds money and try to find a water source so everyone can drink water and move toxic sewage. It's a really great problem for an intellectual mind. And if it doesn't get addressed the US West will in a hydrologic sense look a lot like Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan, served by two mostly dried up and over exploited rivers-- Amu Darya and the Syr Darya

I think the answer for the American West is actually terraforming the western dry lakes and salt flats with saltwater from the Gulf of California into giant evaporation pans. It involves a much shorter distance to pump water, and it would be a solution to a problem that has held back the development of the West for 1200 years or so.

It's a better project for Elon Musk than pneumatic tube trains in California or colonization of an even more dehydrated Mars.

[haele]

8. Over the Tetons, Sandias, and Rockies just to get to

Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. They're pumping uphill, also. It requires new technology, trillions of dollars, and dozens of years.
Maybe it could happen between 2070 or 2080.
Better to get desalination plants online.
And then, we can extract lithium from the brine.

Haele

[MarineCombatEngineer]

11. I was thinking desalination plants also,

it's a much shorter distance from the Pacific Ocean to the reservoirs of the western states.

[ripcord]

47. California rejected a desalinization plant over environmental concerns earlier this year

Los Angeles is going to have a tough time as the drought gets worse, they are required to leave a certain amount of water in the Owens Valley, although they shouldn't be stealing any of it.

[Mosby]

74. San Diego invested in one in Carlsbad. nt.

[brush]

53. That has merit.

Let me ask you a question if you're an engineer. Engineers are creative and paid to figure out how build thing. Could a pipeline from the great lakes be done...thru, under or around or combination of all?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

86. It could be done with a combination of all 3,

but the cost would be astronomical.
Building desalination plants on the west coast would be more cost effective.

Military engineers have a saying, there's no problem that can't be solved with the proper application of C-4 explosives.

[brush]

87. Thanks. I thought go. Desalinization is best idea though..

[Hugh_Lebowski]

14. With serious political will, I'd bet it could be done in a single dozen years.

Yes, it would cost a shit-ton, I guess in the low trillions, like 2-4. And a lot would have to happen through eminent domain, and environmental impact reports would need to be done on a highly expedited basis. This would, I believe, be the greatest obstacle. Along with people protesting you're 'stealing their water', even though we're supposed to be one Nation. Pay everybody enough though, they'll quiet down. Look at Alaska and their oil.

Also if you could supply AZ and southern NV (i.e. not pipe across the Rockies) a lot more of the native water could be left up there for use rather than flowing downstream, so may not need to get the water up that high.

And I suspect we absolutely have the technology, but feel free to enlighten me on what technological obstacles would be faced?

Note I'm not saying "I favor this", only that I think it can physically be done for sure, and reasonably quickly, if the will existed.

[Demsrule86]

59. No, it won't ever happen. You don't understand the midwest. Protest forget about it...we are

talking sabotage. It is our greatest resource and the states that want it knew this day would come and did nothing to prepare. They can't have our water.

[inthewind21]

120. Wow

And people wonder how we got to where we are now.

[WarGamer]

28. Around 200 grams of Li per million kg of water...

A single Tesla battery pack contains 60+ kg of Lithium.

[applegrove]

44. Some kid made an electric motor that uses copper not rare earth minerals

in the battery. The kid is 17.

[WarGamer]

79. I saw that post... cool stuff!

But Lithium is used in batteries, not motors.

[applegrove]

81. Oh. I assumed. My bad.

[WarGamer]

83. really cool story though...

love smart kids

[applegrove]

84. They'll save us.

[NickB79]

9. Why? The water would be too expensive for anyone in the West to use

The energy costs alone to pump it over the Rockies would make this the most expensive water on Earth. Only the rich could afford it. Saudi shieks growing alfalfa for their race horses.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

18. So go below the Rockies into the middle of AZ and Southern NV?

And leave the water that now flows down the Colorado up higher since these lower regions wouldn't need nearly as much?

Just spitballing here.

[wcmagumba]

12. Really giant blimps...something out of Jules Verne....?

[paleotn]

13. Never.

It would be the most expensive water in history. Vastly more expensive than oil. Don't pack a ton of people into a desert.

[multigraincracker]

43. We could give them a discount on

Flint River water.

[catbyte]

17. I'm sure someone there is scheming, but IT'S OURS, lol. What about desalination?

There is an awful lot of water in the Great Lakes. In fact, there's enough water in them to cover all of North and South America to a depth of one foot, but we need the Lakes to stay here, in the Great Lakes region. Sorry, west.

[llmart]

40. Right now I'd just like to get the water back to flowing to my house.

I'm in one of those towns where we're being told we may have to boil our water until Labor Day. We need to fix our current infrastructure before we build anything that's going to steal our Great Lakes water!

[a kennedy]

52. Damn, heard that, so sorry for you.

Hope problems get resolved quickly.

[Demsrule86]

58. That sucks! Hope the water is fixed. Atlanta has the worst water ever and when I lived in the

area, we were always boiling water for bathing. I refused to during any of it as raw sewage was involved.

[sarisataka]

19. It's conditional on other events

[Demsrule86]

60. Exactly...

[BlackSkimmer]

20. Lol.

Gotta love this place.

[Bettie]

21. So, we're supposed to, at great expense, and logistics

drain the Great Lakes so that people in AZ, who have sold the water from their aquifers to Saudis for growing alfalfa in the desert, can have nice, green lawns and create a desert in the Great Lakes regions.

[Demsrule86]

62. Why should we? They would bleed us dry and then what?

[Bettie]

71. My point exactly

beyond the problem with logistics of getting all that water over the distance, the great lakes are a vital part of the ecosystem of the areas they are in.

Just because another region of the country has depleted all of their water resources doesn't mean they get to deplete those of another region.

[WarGamer]

25. California would have PLENTY of water if they regulate big AG.

[Tree Lady]

33. All the states with drought should

Outlaw lawns and only have one golf course per town. That would save a ton of water. And maybe change crops to lower watering ones. Also no new pool permits.

I know it sounds drastic but something drastic has to be done.

[WarGamer]

82. California almond farmers use massive amounts of water.

The annual almond crop uses more water than Los Angeles uses in 3 years.

ONE almond takes over a gallon to produce.

ONE walnut around 5 gallons to produce.

[Lancero]

89. Cattle ranchers thank you for your support.

https://waterfootprint.org/media/downloads/Mekonnen-Hoekstra-2012-WaterFootprintFarmAnimalProducts.pdf

[Maru Kitteh]

94. Hell that's not drastic, it's a start. Slap a painfully exorbitant tax

On ALL existing and future privately owned and commercial pools and/or water features. Tax heavily all water consumption above a reasonable allotment per resident.

[Ocelot II]

26. None of this can happen because of the Great Lakes Compact.

https://www.protectourgreatlakes.org/compact

THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT

The 2008 Great Lakes Compact is a federal law and binational agreement between Canada and US. It exists to safeguard the largest freshwater ecosystem in the world, the Great Lakes. It’s a unique agreement among eight states (Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) and two provinces (Quebec and Ontario) to protect the greatest source of freshwater in the world today.

The Great Lakes Compact was created to protect the Great Lakes as a vital economic and cultural resource. The compact details how the Great Lakes Basin’s water supply is used and managed. Included in the compact, is a ban on water diversions outside the Great Lakes Basin, except in rare instances.

COMPACT BECOMES LAW

Environmental groups worked for years with state and federal partners to advocate for passage of a strong Great Lakes Compact, and in 2008 the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River Basin Water Resources Compact was signed into law.

The process has been long with its first major accomplishment in 2005 when following a nearly five-year negotiation, the Governors of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin reached agreement on the Compact. The Compact provides a comprehensive management framework for achieving sustainable water use and resource protection. The eight Great Lakes States reached a similar, good faith, agreement with Ontario and Québec.

The Great Lakes are a national treasure—important to our nation and the world as both an environmental and economic asset. Our national economy depends on the Great Lakes for industrial uses, hydropower, maritime commerce, agricultural irrigation and many other uses. The Great Lakes are also a globally unique and important environmental resource. The Compact will ensure that the Lakes are used sustainably in order to continue to provide benefits to us all.

The Compact includes the following points:

Economic development will be fostered through sustainable use and responsible management of Basin waters.
In general, there will be a ban on new diversions of water from the Basin but limited exceptions could be allowed in communities near the Basin when rigorous standards are met.
Communities that apply for an exception will have a clear, predictable decision making process; standards to be met; and, opportunities to appeal decisions. …..

[The Unmitigated Gall]

27. It would probably be easier

To reach an agreement with Oregon and Washington…maybe solar-farmed and wind from SoCal in exchange? At least then it doesn’t have to go over the great divide. In the long run there’s going to have to be desalination as well.

[former9thward]

32. Electricity that is used to power things can't go that far.

Electric lines have resistance which takes away the strength of electricity. Power sources have to be relatively close to the population centers they serve.

[sir pball]

106. "High-Voltage Direct Current" power lines can easily extend from WA to CA.

Power lines that use "Alternating Current", where the voltage is constantly changing, suffer high losses from resistance as they get longer, but newer "Direct Current" lines, where the voltage doesn't fluctuate, have much lower loss and can stretch much longer. The current record is 2,500 kilometers/1,500 miles - the I-5 from LA to Seattle is only 1,200 miles.

[Mr.Bill]

29. Good article from American Scientific

about desalination: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-dont-we-get-our-drinking-water-from-the-ocean/

[former9thward]

30. They are not "eyeballing" the water.

Maybe you could post one tiny bit of evidence they are instead of trying to start another state bashing post.

[a kennedy]

36. Seriously??? This topic is "trying to start another state bashing post"

That was NEVER my intention.

[NickB79]

67. 500 million gallons a year by rail from Minnesota, seriously proposed in 2019

See post 65.

[former9thward]

68. The post says it was a local Minnesota company that made the proposal.

It was not AZ that had any interest. Second AZ uses about 21 Trillion gallons of water a year. 500 million gallons would be .0025% of that amount. A flyspeck.

https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts#:~:text=How%20much%20water%20do%20we,municipal%2C%20industrial%20and%20agricultural%20use.

[NickB79]

131. No one floats an idea this big without prospective clients already spoken to

And as for the size? The first water diversion projects in the Southwest were literally hand-dug canals 150 years ago. Today, they move billions of gallons. It doesn't take a genius to see how this could grow rapidly.

[former9thward]

135. So that is your proof AZ wants Midwest water.

I guess you and I have different standards of evidence.

[NickB79]

137. The company already does water delivery via WaterTrain in the Southwest

https://www.twincities.com/2019/10/31/could-trains-haul-millions-of-gallons-of-mn-groundwater-to-the-southwest-a-lakeville-railroad-thinks-so/

Fischer said the DNR has confirmed that the venture would work with Water Train, a company currently providing water to municipal and government agencies in Colorado, Utah and Arizona. The two wells currently are the only wells the company is considering in Minnesota, he added.

Water Train already has their website updated to reflect the Lake Mead crisis to boot.

https://www.watertrain.us/sample-page/getting-ready-for-the-pending-water-crisis/

The Pending Water Crisis
GETTING READY FOR THE PENDING WATER CRISIS

The Colorado River shortage is coming. Next year, or maybe the year after that, but it will be here. And once shortage conditions begin, those conditions are most likely not to end.

Conservation, water banking, recycling, building moratoriums, and agricultural restrictions will help, but NEW WATER will help more.

WATER TRAIN CAN DELIVER BILLIONS OF GALLONS OF EXCESS FRESH, SPRING, OR RECYCLED WATER, DIRECT TO AREAS OF NEED.

But yeah, nothing at all to see here, move along.

[gldstwmn]

31. The aquifer for the Colorado River is in Grand Lake, CO.

We aren't running out of water. It's the people that are downstream in Arizona and Nevada that are going to have problems.

[Demsrule86]

34. Never...it can't be done.

[A HERETIC I AM]

41. It absolutely can be done...

its just unlikely that this country will do it.

But it is by no means impossible to do.

[Demsrule86]

55. Look it up it can not...we have a compact and no way it happens.

[A HERETIC I AM]

66. Declarations, compacts, decrees, agreements, treaties.....

have ALL been changed in the past.

I read your statement;

"Never...it can't be done."

As a declarative statement. That is obviously and clearly not true. It can be done, and if there is enough political and financial desire, it WILL be done, at some point.


I would propose another way of looking at the long term water problems for the west, and that isn't only to divert water from the Great Lakes or the Big Muddy, but to set up a system of catchment basins and reservoirs to capture floodwaters, like what has been happening in Kentucky, and send that water to where ever it is needed.

Now I realize this entire conversation (and this thread is about the 5th one in the last 4 weeks I've seen on this same subject) proposes at the very least, a public works project on a MASSIVE scale. But we have undertaken massive projects in the past. We used to do great things in this country that improved the lives of its citizens.

However, when it comes to the question of some 80 million Americans having enough water to survive on, it seems now we are populated by a bunch of people who just want to say "Fuck em'" to that shitload of their fellow citizens.

[Demsrule86]

73. No, we prevent that and will...I guess they should have figured out a way to fix their issue.

They will not get our water period...

[A HERETIC I AM]

77. Thanks for proving my point.

[brush]

95. Seriously? It's one country. If the west is dying of thirst...

you're not willing to save until the drought is over? That sounds like republican obstructionist thought.

We're one country.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

100. Move out of the desert. After all, we're one country, aren't we? n/t/sarcasm

[brush]

101. Well that's a mature answer. Droughts don't last forever.

You seriouly think the government will allow Southern California with it's ports and coast and cities, Arizona and Nevada to die from lack of water?

That's not smart thinking.

[NickB79]

132. This isn't a drought. It's not even a megadrought anymore

It's aridification. A permanent shift in the climate to a drier state, driving a shift in rainfall patterns, evaporation rates and ecosystems. And it will only get worse as the planet warms, because we're "only" 1C warmer so far. We'll be at 4C by 2100.

Calling it a drought is how people keep getting pacified into thinking this isn't the blaring crisis it truly is, because people associate droughts with short term problems that end eventually.

5000 years ago, the Sahara was a green landscape, complete with lakes, elephants, giraffes, lions and humans. Then a tiny shift occurred in Earth's orbital wobble, and the whole thing turned to desert. It isn't likely to flip back for another 15,000 years.

I wonder if there was a hunter gatherer sitting around the fire after days of not finding food, telling his fellow Saharans "Don't worry, it's just a drought. These things can't last forever."

[brush]

133. See post 69

[brush]

140. See post 69, genius.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

143. Post 69 is one dipshit who has no idea about what economic and environmental impact may entail.

I say fuck 'em. Let the SW die. They choose to live in environmentally and ecologically desolate areas, so be it. The great lakes are the future and prosperity of America, and if the idiotic, almond-eating, avocado-loving dipshits that choose to live there try to take the water, it's a war. East versus West. Not Republican vs. Democrat. "Genius" this; the East will always triumph over the West. More military, more nukes, more trading, more power. The west is a dying state , always have been, and they've earned what they've wrought; Slow, painful death by dehydration.

No one who lives in the East, Republican or Democrat, would allow the level of water outsourcing the fuckshit west would require. You want our water? Come and take it.

"Genius" that, genius.

[inthewind21]

123. Indeed

it does. Any questions on why we are where we are now politically? The perfect examples are right here on this thread.

[Pathwalker]

139. So, destroying the economies of Great Lake states is okay, as lo long as

western states don't suffer from their own mistakes?

[Bettie]

85. Taking large amounts of water from the Great Lakes

would lower their level and increase the temperature. It would change the climate of the states around the lakes in very negative ways, including decreasing precipitation....for people who want to grow alfalfa and have golf courses in a desert and who are very close to having emptied their aquifers entirely.

So, yeah, it's not so much "fuck them", it's more "please don't fuck us over".

I get that most of the states around the Great Lakes are what so many call 'flyover country' and as such are of zero value to those in the "better" states, but we live here and the lakes are the lifeblood of the states around them.

[ForgedCrank]

130. The problems

here are being created by folks who want to live in these dry areas and farm etc at the same time.
The only real answer is, people in these areas are simply going to have to stop farming there and go to areas where it can be properly supported. What they are doing is not sustainable.

[marble falls]

35. Canada might have a few things to say about that. And I'd be on their side, too.

[moonshinegnomie]

38. arizona is the #10 cotton growing state

california is the #2 rice growing state.

maybe places like that need to reconsider growing such water intensive crops

[hunter]

93. Rice is grown where the water is, not in the California desert.

Some of our state's meat and dairy industry is likewise independent of the state's huge water projects.

Water used to grow rice isn't lost.

[moonshinegnomie]

118. the top rice growing part of calilfornia is the sacramento valley

https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/water-and-drought/article263754918.html

[hunter]

119. ?

That video is not where the rice is.

California is big.

We'd probably be growing more rice in California if water wasn't being diverted for other uses.

Before Europeans came here, California's Central Valley was one of the most densely populated areas in North America. It was essentially a large wetland rich with fish and game and edible plants, managed as a sophisticated permaculture by the Native Americans who lived here.

So of course it was drained to "reclaim" it, and the "surplus" water sent elsewhere.

And here we are suffering the consequences of our unwise, unsustainable farming practices and fossil fuel use.

[Kaleva]

39. Any evidence that the two states are eyeballing Great Lakes water?

[a kennedy]

46. Nope.

[NickB79]

65. This proposal was floated a few years ago. Rain cars of water from Minnesota to Arizona

FYI, they'd be tapping the same aquifer my well is on. It was shot down fast.

https://www.twincities.com/2021/04/22/dakota-county-passes-stronger-water-regulations-after-company-sought-to-ship-water-via-rail-to-southwest-u-s/

Ordinance amendments approved Tuesday by the county board of commissioners are a response to interest from a local company to export 500 million gallons of Dakota County groundwater annually and ship it to be sold in the Southwest United States, where water is scarcer.

While the 2019 proposal by a Lakeville-based company was rejected swiftly by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, it set off an outcry from county residents and prompted officials to take steps to stop others from also trying in the future.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

80. I was on Lake Shire Drive last week and there were two shifty lookin' fellas in a Grand Marquis ...

…. with Arizona plates eyeballing the lake.

[hunter]

49. Desalinating water is less trouble and costs less.

Shutting down farms for their water rights is even easier.

Farmers who couldn't afford desalinated water from the Pacific or Gulf Coast certainly wouldn't be able to afford more expensive water imported from the Great Lakes. Therefore it's not going to happen. The cost of desalinating or moving water has little to do with human law or policy, it's all about physics.

Most water in the arid West is used for farm irrigation, a lot of it for unnecessary things like alfalfa exports to Saudi Arabia or feed for the factory farm dairy industry.

The factory farm dairy industry can move to places with abundant water. It's a lot easier to transport cheap ground beef and dairy products from wet places to dry places than it is to transport the water required to raise cows in dry places.

Unfortunately farming in the arid West is a religious thing. Nobody wants to tell the farmers that God has left a recording on His Holy Help Line telling them to find other work or move elsewhere, that their prayers for rain will not be answered. We humans burned all those fossil fuels, now we face the consequences.

We don't have to be cruel to these farmers. We could help them find other work, maybe even pay them to restore their familiar lands to something resembling a natural state, letting them keep grandma's place as a vacation retreat.

Farming isn't anything sacred. People in other industries often have to find different work or move elsewhere when market conditions change.

[Greybnk48]

51. There's been talk of that since the late 80's (at least).

Some have suggested that's why the Koch brothers (et. al.) came after Wisconsin and Michigan like mad dogs.

[a kennedy]

54. Really?? Wow, didn't know that.

[LiberalFighter]

61. Absolutely never

[brush]

78. See post 67.

[brush]

129. Sorry, it's post 69.

[yaesu]

69. MI has been getting above average rainfall for many years, Lake MI levels were too high not long

ago causing flooding to roads & erosion. Water tables have been running high for decades. I for one, living here, have no problem sharing resources with other states that are suffering when we have more then enough.

[Emile]

70. Lake Tahoe is closer.

[Emile]

102. and Crater Lake in Oregon.

Lake Tahoe is 1'645 feet deep.
Crater Lake is 1,945 feet deep

Both lakes are closer than the great lakes!

[VGNonly]

107. Lake Tahoe

The water basin there contains many small streams that flow into the Truckee River. The Truckee eventually flows into Pyramid Lake. It is a brackish endorheic basin, no outlet.

Tahoe already has low water level issues. It isn't a viable source of water outside of the Tahoe basin.

Crater Lake has no inlet or outlet. It stays at about the constant level annually from precipitation. Tapping either or both will eventually drain both.

The Great Lakes have ample precipitation. The Colorado River basin does not.

[Emile]

117. Seeing how I live in a Great Lake state, I prefer

they drain Lake Tahoe before draining the Great Lakes. When I posted those two western lakes I wanted people to understand how we would feel if they tapped into the Great Lakes. I know Lake Tahoe and Crater Lake is not feasible.

[VGNonly]

127. I also live in the Great Lakes basin,

Lake Erie. The Great Lakes plan or the Mississippi is not a practical solution. My estimate is that it would cost $3 trillion. Tahoe and Crater while cheaper, would eventually run out of water or drop so low that pumping wouldn't be productive.

Climate refugees are going to be the new norm. 70 million people may have to move, just in the US alone. Population levels will have to drop. People will need to drastically cut the amount of meat/dairy they consume or go outright vegan.

We are doomed without severe restrictions.

[Xolodno]

90. Won't happen. There are better alternatives.

1. More desalinization plants.

2. Pumping recycled water into the ground water table....or just use it out right.

3. Stop subsidizing water intensive crops....which means the rest of the country will see a food price increase.

4. Add waterless urinals to every home.

5. Ban lawns.

6. Limit pool sizes.

There are more, but I don't feel like going through them all.

[kcr]

91. Never, for both practical and legal reasons

[myohmy2]

96. never...

...we choose not to live in a desert and to drink cool fresh delicious water...

...you can't take our delicious fresh water so you can live in a desert...

...practice drinking piss and sucking cactus...

...you'll get used to it...

[inthewind21]

124. How

very republican of you!

[sarisataka]

128. What is very Republican is

Overusing resources until they are depleted then finding someone else that has the resources and taking theirs.

I notice the word conservation is missing from those who believe other states should give the west their water.

[Hellbound Hellhound]

99. Fuck that and fuck the West.

They can move Easterly or to Canada. If Cali/Arizona/Colorado want to try pumping from the Great Lakes, they'll have a fight on their hands from both left and right. The Great Lakes Compact forbids it, and no one, left or right, would tolerate such blatant bullshit.

Move out of the desert you idiots. End of story.

[Brenda]

104. People need to move out of the West.

Do it now before you are forced to become a climate refugee.

There will never be a pipeline from anywhere to the West or the middle of the country which is becoming the new Death Valley.

Efforts should be put into desalination.

[inthewind21]

125. So

Is the mid-west then going to make up California's economy? The 6th largest in the WORLD? Oh wait, no one thought about that huh.

[NickB79]

134. You still think we have a choice?

We're in the midst of the 6th mass extinction event, caused by our carbon emissions. Business as usual stopped being an option about 20 years ago. Now we're in for a world of hurt as we've locked in 2-3C of warming (if we're lucky).

Mother Nature doesn't give a fuck about our economies. We'll be lucky if we aren't looking at a global Depression in the developed nations in 20 years as climate change wipes out our food supplies. In less developed nations, you're looking at possible societal collapse.

[VGNonly]

108. John Wesley Powell

He was a geologist, civil engineer, topographer, explorer and Civil War veteran (lost his arm Battle of Shiloh). In 1883 he determined that the Colorado Basin was a insufficient source of water for the SW, populations could not thrive.

[Brenda]

109. Interesting

But greedy developers and their politician sales force never let a scientist, engineer or plain old common sense argument stand in their way of making a fortune.

[VGNonly]

110. Powell proposed

basing development on watersheds, allowing only use and development on the availability of water. Greed pays for need.

[Brenda]

111. Powell was wise.

Just like so many of the eloquent climate scientists and environmental writers who have been speaking out about this for decades.

But they all have been ignored and worse mocked by those in control of the levers of government and change.

Frankly, it's too late.

[geardaddy]

122. You do realize that the Great Lakes

are an international body of water and that it isn't just up to the states that border them, but also to the Canadian provinces that border them.

[Model35mech]

141. No, people who push this DO NOT KNOW there is an international body

that oversees ALL of the Great Lakes, now actually including in addition to H.O.M.E.S.S. the Lake Champlain in New York.

Thirsty people care little for previous agreements. They want their thirst quenched. Amen

[bif]

126. Never gonna happen.

The Great Lake states and Ontario all signed a pact about this years ago.

[NickB79]

138. Why don't Colorado and Arizona just withhold their water obligations to California?

Oh, they have a legally binding water contract, you say?

The same kind of contract that the Great Lakes States and Canada have to protect our water resources from being drained away?

The same kind of contract some people think should just be ignored so we can keep growing lettuce and milk in the desert?

You guys go first. Tell us how that works out for you.

[Sam_Fields]

142. Most likely it will be the Columbia river

It is closer and will just need one pumping system over the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

[PufPuf23]

145. Hopefully never. Impacts more complex than water through a pipe.

Too many proposed human "solutions" to the environment are band aides, delaying solution or making problem worse for short term gain.

Need an orderly reduction of population over several generations. Better than population reduction via catastrophe or disease and the like associated with stress.

[moondust]

146. Israeli pumping project.

Desalinated water from Mediterranean to Sea of Galilee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/19/middleeast/israel-water-desalination-climate-cmd-intl/index.html

[hunter]

153. Israel is small, less than 8,500 square miles, and next to an ocean.

Arizona is 114,000 square miles, Colorado is 104,000 square miles, and neither is next to an ocean.

Furthermore, the lowest elevation in Colorado is 3,300 feet. Pumping water uphill takes a tremendous amount of energy. Pumping desalinated water to Colorado would exceed the cost of desalinating it.

It's possible the Central Arizona Project will carry desalinated water someday, but first Arizona farms will be abandoned as more water is diverted to the cities.

Arizona would rather grow suburbs than food anyways. They can always import food from states that have water. Importing water directly is more problematic since Arizona isn't known for having positive political relationships with either Mexico or California.

[sarisataka]

156. Israel's pipe moves 120 million cubic meters a year

That is about 31.7 billion gallons. California alone uses over 38 billion gallons per day.

Also Israel is moving the water 31km over fairly flat terrain. We we have to move it over 3100km and there is a major mountain range in the way.

[alphafemale]

147. Oh...Hell NAH!

This is like the glutton, brat kid who eats their slice of cake in two rapid fistfuls and then starts screaming "Unfair" because a sibling, eating at a normal pace, still has cake.

Again.

Oh...Hell NAH!

[karynnj]

150. Why not build plants to desalination ocean water somewhere on the coast of California and pump it

to the Colorado River instead. That along with using whatever techniques have been developed inmany dry countries to maximize the value of all water used.

I am currently in Lanzarote where all the water on the island is from two plants, at least the one on this side has to wind turbines that use the incredible wind.

Ignoring the damage done to the great lake states, it would seem that the distance is so great that at least a significant portion would be lost.

[Kaleva]

151. China is attempting something similiar with devastating environmental consequences

[Kaleva]

152. I would think you'd need a canal the size of a large river

It'd be tough to cross the Mississippi and other rivers flowing south and east

[JustAnotherGen]

154. They share a border with

Canada - they might have something to say about that.

Full Disclosure - I was raised outside of Rochester NY. Moved to NJ in 2006.

No, no, no.

Move the people - not the water.