General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat does the Inflation Reduction Act do for those thinking about installing solar panels?
I'm finally financially secure enough to pull the trigger and get my roof covered in solar panels. I've had estimates, I've recently installed a new roof, and I've done a lot of homework on exactly what I want done. A friend had her roof converted to solar last year, and she absolutely loves it. Her electricity bill is negative every month, sometimes by hundreds of dollars!
Now that the IRA has passed, though, I'm wondering if I should wait another year to pull the trigger, in case there are some new tax credits and/or rebates that will be rolling out in the next year?
NNadir
(33,525 posts)...ethics and not financial reward should guide your decision.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)In what way?
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Lancero
(3,003 posts)A scam.
Elessar Zappa
(14,004 posts)I wouldnt call solar energy a scam.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)I guess it's a matter of who is being "scammed."
Elessar Zappa
(14,004 posts)Seriously, straighten me out if Im wrong.
On edit: I just read a couple of your responses and you bring up good points. Thank you.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)Since it cannot function without access to them, it has a probability of zero of doing away with them.
If it's advertised (albeit only recently, having switched from the original goal of doing away with nuclear energy) as a tool to address climate change, and since the (newly) advertised reason for spending vast sums of money on it has a zero probability of being realized, it's a scam, an advertising scam, but a scam all the same. This is true unless someone is here to announce that half a century of cheering for, and spending vast sums of money on, solar energy has stopped climate change.
I have the distinct impression that the contrary is true, that the effects of climate change are more graphic than ever.
Germany is an example of the case about how serious advocates of wind and solar are about climate change are and what their goal is and was in Energiewende: They shut their nuclear plants to burn coal.
Electricity Map, Berlin 220820 4h0min.
As for the other stuff, thank you for reading and noticing.
You're welcome.
brooklynite
(94,591 posts)The energy to run them is frequently generated from nuclear or fossil fuels (everyone doesn't have a waterfall handy) and only waalthy people can afford them.
Do I have the rant down correctly?
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Plus anyone can do their part by installing a nuclear reactor on their roof. Makes perfect sense!
NNadir
(33,525 posts)The publication, by two European ethicists, is here: Ethics of Nuclear Energy in Times of Climate Change: Escaping the Collective Action Problem
I came across it while searching citations of this paper from Lancet: Electricity generation and health, a paper I often cite in response to rote chanting.
The ethics paper is free, open sourced. Anyone who wants to be educated about "ethics" and energy can read it. Anyone who wants to simply mouth platitudes is, of course, exempt, but certainly not worthy of making statements about the subject of ethics.
The claim is that nuclear and only nuclear needs to be risk free in order to be acceptable, that no other risk matters; all other forms of energy can kill at will.
Anyone making this claim does not really have much of an ethical standing from my perspective.
Nuclear energy need not be perfect to be vastly superior to everything else, including but hardly limited to the category applying to ethics, to be vastly superior to everything else. It only needs to be vastly superior to everything else, which it is.
The gas and coal plants that are swept under the rug by people who don't think particularly clearly, or who are abysmally misinformed or don't bother to look, do not fit on the roofs of bourgeois home owners either, not that they give a rat's ass about these. Yet the solar industry would not survive without access to gas and coal plants, which the horror now underway in Germany demonstrates.
Of course, one could argue - and I do - that a subsidy paid to homeowners is a subsidy for the relatively wealthy at the expense of the poor. People working three jobs to feed their kids in a one bedroom or studio apartment are not eligible for this subsidy.
I'm not much into "I got mine" libertarian bullshit, the cowboy approach to energy, "every person (who can afford it) for himself, herself or themselves."
Nor are the people who will have to clean up the electronic waste that every solar cell on this planet will become in 25 years. This is a subsidy for the living to be paid by future generations.
Let's be clear. The solar and wind fantasies was never about replacing dangerous fossil fuels; it was about replacing nuclear energy. The recent add on about climate change is nonsense. The expenditure of trillions of dollars on solar and wind in this century has led to the acceleration of climate change, and has contributed nothing to arresting it.
Today 18,000 people will die from air pollution. I remind anyone who thinks that all one has to do is to install solar cells and do away with gas and coal plants is not paying attention.
When confronted, as I often am by rote recitation of "conventional wisdom" whether it comes from my end of the political spectrum, the left, or elsewhere (so called "moderates" and right wingers) I produce the following text, in which I have added the bold for clarity, including a reference:
Here is what it says about air pollution deaths in the 2019 Global Burden of Disease Survey, if one is too busy to open it oneself because one is too busy carrying on about Fukushima:
The climate scientist, Jim Hansen, in a famous paper coauthored by a colleague at Columbia, picked up on this reality to show that nuclear energy saves lives.
Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 48894895)
Unfortunately, sloganeering has substituted for clear thinking. I wish I could say that this is only true on the right, but we have more of our share of it on the left.
I have been tracking the weekly readings for carbon dioxide at the Mauna Loa Website for around 2 decades. At the beginning of this century, the 12 month running average of week to week comparators of readings compared with ten years earlier was 15.10 ppm/10 years in August of 2000, or 1.51ppm/year. Last week the same reading was 24.46 ppm/10 years, 2.45 ppm/year.
For this whole century people have been bad-mouthing nuclear energy and praising so called "renewable energy." Having considered the issue in significant detail, I regard as an attack on the world's poorest citizens.
The solar and wind fantasy is doing nothing, zero, zip, nada, rien, to address climate change. It has merely soaked up money that could be better spent in a thousand better places, less prominent in "pop" culture perhaps, but very real.
In another context, Abraham Lincoln said this:
If we substitute the word "world" for "country" the quote would certainly apply to the present, in particular to the realities of energy. The present is literally stormy, except where it doesn't rain at all, where crops fail, where water supplies vanish, where vast stretches of continents burn, and people literally drop dead from excessive heat.
It does seem the biggest "difficulty" "piled high" is that people would rather offer smug chants than "think anew." This intellectual and moral laziness is killing the future, and indeed the present.
Have a nice weekend.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)You have the nerve to talk about the perfect being the enemy of the good as you slander incentives for renewable energy?
Response to jcgoldie (Reply #22)
Post removed
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Nothing more I need to READ of your condescending prose either.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)...or from anyone else.
It certainly doesn't seem they read much, especially anything that conflicts with their dogma.
Dogma is more powerful than ever, much to the loss of the world.
This set of people doesn't vary very much from case to case. They're generally bourgeois, indifferent, disinterested and badly educated.
Nevertheless, the world is on fire, and the solar fantasy has done nothing to address it.
It's just squandered money, on a scale of trillions of dollars, this on a planet where more than one billion people lack access to any form of improved sanitation.
Of course, this ethical issue escapes head in the sand types, as well it must, by definition.
Have a great weekend.
brooklynite
(94,591 posts)NNadir
(33,525 posts)hunter
(38,317 posts)Which is something we need to do now.
Thankfully the U.S.A. hasn't abandoned nuclear technology, otherwise we might end up buying it from China.
Aggressive renewable energy schemes have failed in places like California, Denmark, and Germany. These schemes are simply not viable without natural gas.
The worst is yet to come in Germany, where they quit nuclear power in favor of Russian natural gas.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)Your ethical issue with solar. Help me out here.
hunter
(38,317 posts)Rate structures could be adjusted to account for this effect, but that would make solar less attractive to the wealthy.
In my perfect world electric rates would be steeply tiered.
A home with a 20 amp service and a small electric demand would pay a lot less per kilowatt hour than a McMansion with a 200 amp electric service and a huge electric demand. Any excess solar power the McMansion dumped into the electrical grid would be limited to 20 amps and it would be accounted for at the lowest electric rate.
Somebody living in a low income apartment with a 20 amp service might pay ten cents a kilowatt hour for electricity. The McMansion person might pay 35 cents a kilowatt hour, but they would only be able to feed 20 amps of solar power back into the grid and get paid ten cents a kilowatt hour for that electricity.
I'd ban new solar projects on previously undeveloped land entirely. Those huge solar plants built out on the desert are obscene. Destroying the environment in order to save it is not an ethical position.
The biggest problem with solar is that it won't save the world. It will only prolong our dependence on natural gas.
I don't begrudge my neighbors their solar panels but I don't believe society should be subsidizing the energy follies of wealthy people.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Offering incentives for the heaviest power consumers to become producers has nothing to do with how prices should be tiered. It has to do with burning less fossil fuels. Nothing alone is going to save the world so your argument that solar cant completely replace fossil fuels is a red herring. If offering individuals of whatever socio economic strata incentives makes them clean producers rather than heavy consumers of energy produced by fossil fuels then it is a net positive.
hunter
(38,317 posts)Let's be absurdly generous about solar power's capacity factor and say it cuts fossil fuel use in half.
Does it matter to the fate of the earth if we burn a certain amount of fossil fuels in one year or two?
No, it does not.
It matters even less when world energy consumption is increasing every year.
I compare it to smoking. If you go from a pack-a-day habit to a half-pack-a-day habit plus vaping, you are still a smoker. If you are encouraging non-smokers to adopt your new smoking habits you are certainly NOT making the world a better place.
panader0
(25,816 posts)I live in the boonies and have a 200 amp service. It powers my well (that serves my neighbor too), my refrigerator, my
swamp cooler, my electrical devices, my and Jeannie's computers, my band room (20 amps to that), and my wood shop.
Of course, not all of them run at the same time. 20 amps would do the fridge and the cooler, and little more.
hunter
(38,317 posts)We just had to remember not to turn on major appliances at the same time. Those were the washing machine, the microwave oven, and the window air conditioner in the bedroom. We popped a few Edison base glass fuses before we got the hang of it.
Our kitchen range, furnace, clothes dryer, and water heater were gas. Our compact refrigerator was less than 100 watts.
The home's original knob and tube wiring had been replaced in the 'fifties but the original electrical service had never been upgraded.
The next owners had a hundred amp service installed. I'm certain their issue was air conditioning. Our little window air conditioner kept the house habitable in the summer but it didn't exactly keep it cool. On the hottest days it mostly acted as a dehumidifier.
20 amp service is still fairly common in parts of Europe.
20 amps X 240 volts = 4800 watts.
It seems to me every household in the world ought to have at least that level of electrical service.
brooklynite
(94,591 posts)They are promoted as a way to reduce the installers energy bill by replacing some or all energy from the utility company with energy from the sun. That is factually true. Perfectly ethical and definitely not a scam.
NNadir
(33,525 posts)They have no social value, particularly since the electronic waste they will become in 25 years - less than 10 years for the inverters - are going to be dumped on future generations.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)From what I have researched so far... the federal credit goes from 26% to 30%. Your state may offer additional credits.
snowybirdie
(5,229 posts)article here in Fl. that insurance companies won't cover homes with solar panels. Better check before you buy.
texasfiddler
(1,990 posts)I installed solar on my property about 5 years ago and it is great. I have produced 90% of the kWhrs I have consumed.
[link:https://www.seia.org/sites/default/files/2022-08/Inflation%20Reduction%20Act%20Summary%20PDF%20FINAL.pdf|
dweller
(23,641 posts)Im considering converting my roof to Hydrogen
✌🏻
Rstrstx
(1,399 posts)That way you can move if you have to
dweller
(23,641 posts)(said in munchkin voice)
✌🏻
BumRushDaShow
(129,081 posts)Response to NickB79 (Original post)
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