NARA isn't tasked with secret doc security. Many are missing this HUGE point.

[Saboburns]

NARA is an archive.

They do not provide security for the millions of secret documents in our government. That the NARA was not aware docs were missing isn't even a little bit important.

WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THOSE TASKED WITH THE SECURITY OF SECRET DOCUMENTS WERE AWARE THEY WERE MISSING AND POSSIBLY WHO TOOK THEM!

Things like that aren't printed in newspapers. OR ANYWHERE ELSE!

When you finally figure this point out, well then...

Go ahead, give it some thought...

And you might want to slow your roll and stop bitching about how the FBI are clueless stumble bums who didn't even know this stuff was missing for 18 months.

[louis-t]

1. NARA knew at some point but they can't seize documents.

That's why the FBI was brought in. Then they had to provide evidence to get the warrant.

[patphil]

2. I've often wondered how the government would know a particular document was missing.

Of the many millions of documents handled by the Administrative Branch each year, with a significant percentage being classified, how would any one department know what was missing?
The National Archive only knows what it has, and can make inferences as to what is missing by checking with the various government agencies, and comparing what they have to what is typically part of an administration's daily business.
There's a certain reliance on the expect level of trust, and honesty of government officials, particularly related to White House documentation.
There was no way they could know exactly what Trump had, only that a lot of stuff wasn't accounted for. Even then it took a long time for the National Archive to sift through all they did receive to determine what wasn't there.

The situation the National Archive and the FBI found themselves in was un-presidented (deliberate misspelling to accommodate Trumpian English).
Given the situation, it was necessary to go slow and give Trump every opportunity to give back what he took with him (stole).
Even now, you have to suspect there is more out there.

[Scrivener7]

3. And again:

Those most secure documents are supposed to be moved only under rigorous security conditions and with a clear chain of custody among specially designated security personnel. Under those restrictive conditions they are only supposed to go from one SCIF to another.

We're talking about nuclear secrets, by some reports. Spy identities by other reports.

How did those tasked with their security lose track of them? And if they were not returned to the places NARA designated for them, why did NARA not know this?

Go ahead, give it some thought.

[crickets]

4. This is the most frightening and infuriating betrayal of all.

Aside from the theft itself, of course.

tfg had to have help to smuggle out documents this classified, a lot of help, and some of it had to come from security willing to turn a blind eye. Not only that, tfg had to have people knowledgeable enough to choose and find the types of documents he wanted.

This isn't about hiding a folder or two in your pants to walk out the door. Dozens of boxes of national security secrets walked out of "secure" spaces. It took time. It took organization. It took complicity at all levels to pull this off.

Who are the people who helped him do it? Why are they not being discussed as well? They are every bit the nightmare security risk that he is, and some of them are still on the job.

[Saboburns]

5. THE IMPORTANT DATE IS WHEN THE GSA INFORMED THE FBI THE DOCUMENTS WERE MISSING.

That is when the FBI knew. Which is a date that nobody outside the DOJ/FBI knows yet.

KNOWING WHEN NARA KNEW IS MEANINGLESS!

Those most secure documents are supposed to be moved only under rigorous security conditions and
View profile
with a clear chain of custody among specially designated security personnel. Under those restrictive conditions they are only supposed to go from one SCIF to another.

We're talking about nuclear secrets, by some reports. Spy identities by other reports.

EXACTLY! YES! All these things make me think those tasked with document security knew the minute those docs were stolen. Who stole them. And tracked them. The minute they disappeared.

Government Services Administration, GSA, is responsible for the security, and custodians of, US Government secret Documents.

Let me try it this way...

We do not know when these documents were known to be missing. THAT INFORMATION IS NOT YET IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE. The GSA would be the first agency to know, who then goes to the DOJ/FBI and tells them what is missing. The DOJ/FBI investigates this problem. They haven't released any details yet concerning when documents were known to be missing. It could be the minute they were stolen.

All we know is that the NARA didn't know about missing documents. That's all that is in the public sphere, as of now. And it's not all that important!

Get it?

[Saboburns]

6. Maybe I'm not explaining all this adequately. That's entirely possible.

Last edited Wed Aug 24, 2022, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Perhaps someone else who understands my gibberish can explain things much better, and easier to understand than I.

And I sincerely hope someone does.

[Scrivener7]

8. You could say you think it was a sting.

I'd love it if that were the case. I doubt it is.

[Saboburns]

9. I did say that. I do say that.

Last edited Wed Aug 24, 2022, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Because I think that's what happened. And every little crumb, twist, or nugget that we get about all this just confirms my initial gut-feeling.

Though I could be totally wrong. Mocked for all eternity.

I do admit a heaping helping of wishful thinking is involved. Emotions are rarely a good thing when analytic thinking is involved.

But this is just the internet after all.

[Scrivener7]

11. I so dearly hope you are right and that it is a sting.

I am furious about this but also so sad. I suppose I was naive. I thought there were parts of the government that worked for the good of the government and the people governed. No matter who is in charge. If you are right, my intense disappointment and fear will have been misplaced and I will be very happy.

[EndlessWire]

7. The May 10th letter from NARA is reliable

NARA certainly knew that there were documents missing. How they tracked that I do not know. Probably through some internal sign-out mechanism. But, they spent most of 2021 negotiating with trump lawyers for the return of the documents.

When they finally got Trump to give back documents, they retrieved the 15 boxes. By then, he had gone through the boxes and held back docs. Why he sent back classified docs, we don't know. Maybe just to look good.

But, when NARA discovered classified docs in the boxes (why those weren't known to be missing, we don't know; perhaps they realized it early but were trying to get them back without fuss), THEY NOTIFIED DOJ AND THE FBI. Perhaps they realized that not all missing docs were returned. DOJ then requested Biden to intervene with NARA and get them to allow the FBI to inspect the docs. Biden threw the decision on whether to allow Executive Privilege (or, at any rate, on whether the FBI got to look at the docs) back on Debra Wall, the National Archivist in charge.

She was conducting correspondence with Trump's "team" and she told them that she was going to allow the FBI in, and they requested additional time. Time to do what, I don't know. Get a rep together? Time to shape further argument for EP? Trump really didn't want the FBI to realize that he had stolen the docs. But, by May 10th, she told his lawyers that the FBI was coming in, there was no Executive Privilege for Trump (this, after she consulted with some major attorney department) and that he could have a rep look at the docs but only if that rep had a security clearance (which would have had to be the highest classification to cover the Top Secret stuff.)

From the May 10th letter (and nobody knows the motivation behind the release of this letter by Trump's guy, a journalist--kinda stupid, if you ask me):

"As you are no doubt aware, NARA had ongoing communications with the former President’s representatives throughout 2021 about what appeared to be missing Presidential records, which resulted in the transfer of 15 boxes of records to NARA in January 2022."

So, we do know that NARA knew stuff was missing, and that they were attempting to negotiate the return of the docs all through most of 2021, which resulted in the return of 15 boxes. But when NARA discovered such high level docs present, they notified DOJ and the FBI.

Trump has admissions on record that he had the docs. Everybody knows that he had the docs. Let's see him weasel out of this one.

[Saboburns]

10. if I was the FBI and I wanted to smite the guy who tried to overthrow America

And endlessly bitches about, and degrades, my FBI. I would hope, wish, pray, sacrifice to FSM, do anything to receive information that Donald Trump stole state secrets. I would keep that info VERY close to my vest, I would do EVERYTHING to keep his traitorous lackeys (some of whom still work for the FBI) from finding that I was privy.

I would start a supremely tight team and ramp up an investigation. If I could I'd quietly get a warrant for his mail, phones, and whatever else I'm legally entitled to use to gather evidence.

I'd certainly use a Confidential Informant if one was available, the closer to the target the better. A spy in the House of Trump!

And I'd watch, and I'd listen, and I'd learn. I'd let him keep the purloined docs, I would be confident in his treachery and greed, I'd make arrangements regarding the state secrets. I'd have a contingency plan for emergencies. I'd not trade fucking him if it meant horror to America or Americans. But I'd let him keep them. NO MATTER HOW FUCKING LONG IT TOOK, I'D SIT TIGHT AND WAIT.

Then when my evidence was gathered and I knew I had the bastard sewn up, this is what I'd do


This is what I'd do.

I'd think back to all the immoral, illegal, disgusting things he's gotten away with and I'd study up and remember what he did, and how he reacted, when he was in a tight spot.

I'd know he'd scream political witch hunt, and planted evidence, and everything else he always screams, and I'd know too what Fox and all them WingNut propagandists would say and do. I'd cetrainly know he'd rile up his zombie hordes to violent rhetoric and violent action, and that they would go to war against my FBI.

And I'd prepare.

The first thing I'd make public would be a sort of a feint, I'd want the story to thunder the news, but I wouldn't want his gang to know anymore about what I knows than is possible, A no-knock warrant to retrieve government documents stored inside his house was a genius move. To get the warrant I'd give the evidence of the letter from NARA. I mean it's genuine, it fucks him, in thsat he's now guilty of having SCI/SAP docs in his fucking house. But I only let him see my lowest card. My big cards I keep to myself.

I'd know the reaction, you knew what was gonna happen when this story broke, you knew what they were gonna say. Asnd they did exactly what we knew they'd do. So we let them thrash about, gnash their teeth, and after a few days we released the warrant that showed investigion for Obstruction and breaking the Espionage Act. That fucked them That's when that ball of iceformed in their stomach.

Because for the first time their gnashing of teeth stamping of feet had not worked. Egads they thought, but didn't say, the FBI has stone-cold proof, and Trump has no defense. And all we can do is offer hopeless bullshit. IT WAS THE BOX PACKERS FAULT!

I'd hunker down, and drip, drip, drip only what I wanted to the public. I'd allow nothing that does not cover Donald Trump in shit to be consumed by the public. Cause i know, KNOW, I hold all the cards. I'd know that has no idea what I know, how I know it, what's coming next, BECAUSE NOW DONALD TRUMP IS POWERLESS TO STOP WHAT'S COMING NEXT.

He ain't living in the White House anymore, not Air Force 1, he's not POTUS, he's got no spies in my FBI team to tell him what I know, zero Devin Nunez's, he's got no way to get ahead of the story, cause that's the way bI planned it and that's the way I like to have Donald Trump.

POWERLESS!

Then I would tighten the screws slowly. Show the proof of his guilt a little at a time. Each time peeling away his support, each time covering him fresh piles of shit.

And if I proof of other, bigger, worser crimes, I'd slow walk it. Because that helps me, and hurts him.

But I'm just an internet blowhard. With fanciful and foolhardy notions. A certified kook.

I'm no seasoned, professional, successful Federal Prosecutor, who know more than us, how to corner big fucking rats like Merrick Garland does.

[EndlessWire]

12. You're certified?

Well...The NARA has an obligation to report. The FBI has an obligation to report. And the Executive Branch has a mandated obligation to assess the damage that this has done. So, there are other people in the pipeline that have to be accounted for.

You can't leave classified docs where they are just to set a trap. As much as we all want the perp walk, we need to clean up the leaks and safeguard our country. That's why Garland made the right move when they saw activity at the boxes. They couldn't wait for more negotiation with the Trump "team" to get the rest. What with the Saudis in town, and Orban, who knows what he was doing with them.

[Saboburns]

13. FBI is obligated to report to who? You?

Please enlighten me, exactly what law explains how the FBI must conduct this kind of investigation.

Can you tell me exactly who the FBI is obligated to inform.

Is there a time frame for reporting?

Can you identify the statute that would explain "You can't leave classified docs where they are just to set a trap.".

Meet Thomas Drake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_A._Drake

Espionage Act and whistleblowing
Drake is one of four individuals in the history of the United States who has been charged specifically with "willful retention" of "national defense" information under 18 U.S.C. § 793


In September 2002, Roark and three former NSA officials, William Binney, J. Kirk Wiebe,[26] and Ed Loomis,[27] filed a DoD Inspector General report regarding problems at NSA, including Trailblazer.[15] Drake was a major source for the report, and gave information to DoD during its investigation of the matter.[15] Roark tried to notify her superior, then-Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Porter Goss.[7] She also attempted to contact William Rehnquist, the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court at the time.[15] In addition, Roark made an effort to inform Vice President Dick Cheney's legal counsel David Addington, who had been a Republican staff colleague of hers on the committee in the 1980s.[20] Addington was later revealed by a Washington Post report to be the author of the controlling legal and technical documents for the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program, typing the documents on a Tempest-shielded computer across from his desk in room 268 of the Eisenhower Executive Office Building and storing them in a vault in his office.[28][29][30] Roark got no response any of the three men.

2007 FBI raids
In July 2007, armed FBI agents raided the homes of Roark, Binney, and Wiebe, the same people who had filed the complaint with the DoD Inspector General in 2002.[27] Binney claims they pointed guns at his wife and himself. Wiebe said it reminded him of the Soviet Union.[20] None of these people were charged with any crimes. In November 2007, there was a raid on Drake's residence. His computers, documents, and books were confiscated. He was never charged with giving any sensitive information to anyone; the charge actually brought against him is for 'retaining' information (18 U.S.C. § 793(e)).[19] The FBI tried to get Roark to testify against Drake; she refused.[20] Reporter Gorman was not contacted by the FBI.[15][21]

Drake initially cooperated with the investigation, telling the FBI about the alleged illegality of the NSA's activities.[20] The government created a 'draft indictment' of Drake, prepared by prosecutor Steven Tyrrell. It listed charges as "disclosing classified information to a newspaper reporter and for conspiracy". Diane Roark, Binney, Wiebe, and Loomis (the complainants to the DoD IG in 2002) were also allegedly listed as "unindicted co-conspirators".[27]

Indictment
In April 2010, Drake was indicted by a Baltimore grand jury on the following charges:[4][5][6][8]

Willful Retention of National Defense Information 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) (5 counts)
(793(e) is a modification of the Espionage Act of 1917 made under the McCarran Internal Security Act of 1950)
Obstructing justice 18 U.S.C. § 1519 (1 count)
Making a False Statement 18 U.S.C. § 1001(a) (4 counts)

Reported in 2002. Raided in 2007. Indicted in 2011.

Don't say a thing about reporting obligations.

Why did it take 5 years for this story to break?

[Saboburns]

14. Meet Jeffrey Sterling

Jeffrey Alexander Sterling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Alexander_Sterling

Jeffrey Alexander Sterling is an American lawyer and former CIA employee who was arrested, charged, and convicted of violating the Espionage Act for revealing details about Operation Merlin (covert operation to supply Iran with flawed nuclear warhead blueprints) to journalist James Risen

Conviction under the Espionage Act

FCI Englewood, where Sterling was located
Between 2002 and 2004, the U.S. federal government intercepted several interstate emails to and from Sterling, which were &quot ...) routed through a server located in the Eastern District of Virginia (...)". The authorities also traced telephone calls between Sterling and[5]—the journalist and book author James Risen. In the intercepted communications, Sterling is alleged to have revealed national defense information to an unauthorized person.[15] In March 2003 Sterling also raised concerns with the Senate Intelligence Committee about a "poorly executed and dangerous Operation Merlin."[20]

On December 22, 2010, U.S. attorney Neil H. MacBride filed an indictment against Sterling on the unlawful retention and unauthorized disclosure of national defense information, mail fraud, unauthorized conveyance of government property, and obstruction of justice. Sterling was arrested on January 6, 2011.[15] Sterling became the fifth individual in the history of the United States who has been charged, under the Espionage Act, with mishandling national defense information.[10][21][22]

In a hearing at the U.S. District Court on January 14, 2011, Sterling's defense attorney, Edward MacMahon, entered a not guilty plea.[23][24] MacMahon reported to the court that he was still waiting for clearance to discuss the case in detail with his client.[25] Rather than relying exclusively on records of electronic communications to legally establish that Sterling exchanged information with Risen,[26] the prosecution has subpoenaed Risen to testify and reveal his journalistic sources,[27] an effort which Risen and his attorneys contested.[28][29]

Sterling, who maintains that his communications with Risen did not involve secret information, was convicted of espionage charges on January 26, 2015. Sentencing was originally scheduled for April 24,[30] but after learning of the sentence of no more than two years’ probation plus a fine given one day earlier to David Petraeus for the misdemeanor of unauthorized removal and retention of classified material, Sterling's lawyers submitted a plea that Sterling "not receive a different form of justice" than Petraeus, asking for a similarly lenient sentence instead of the 19 to 24 years imprisonment sought by the federal prosecutors.[31] On May 11, 2015, U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema sentenced Sterling to 3½ years in prison. Judge Brinkema said there was "no more critical secret" than revealing the identity of a man working with the CIA, and that Sterling deserved a harsher penalty than other recent leakers because he had not pleaded guilty or admitted wrongdoing. The judge said she was moved by his accomplishments but needed to send a message to others: "If you do knowingly reveal these secrets, there's going to be a price to be paid."[7] On June 22, 2017, a three-judge panel of the 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals upheld the sentence.[32]

Sterling was incarcerated at FCI Englewood. In 2016, Sterling's wife said that she was afraid that Sterling could die of health issues behind bars.[33] In September 2016, Sterling detailed the FBI's continued indifference in his seeking treatment for a severe heart condition, in letters which were published by Common Dreams.[34] In April 2017 Sterling was placed into solitary confinement after he allegedly threatened an officer.[8] He was "denied medication for his heart condition and endured a cardiac-related episode" while in solitary confinement.[8]

Suspect in 2002. Indicted in 2010. Arrested in 2011.

Why did it take 8 years for this story to break?

[Saboburns]

15. Meet Daniel Hale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Hale

Daniel Everette Hale (born 1987/1988)[1] is a former National Security Agency (NSA) intelligence analyst who leaked classified information about drone warfare to the press.[2][3][4][5] Hale served in the United States Air Force 2009–2013 before joining the National Security Agency and leaking classified documents to The Intercept. In 2021, he pled guilty to retaining and transmitting national defense information and was sentenced to 45 months in prison. As of October 2021, he was incarcerated at United States Penitentiary, Marion, Illinois.

ale served in the United States Air Force from July 2009 to July 2013. He was an enlisted airman. In 2013, he was assigned to the NSA and the Joint Special Operations Command at Bagram Airfield, the largest U.S. military base in Afghanistan, where he helped identify targets for assassination.[6] In February 2014, after leaving the Air Force and becoming a contractor at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Hale leaked 17 classified documents to The Intercept.[7][8] The documents contained details about U.S. kill lists and civilian casualties of drone strikes,[9] and in some cases revealed actions that, if proven, would amount to war crimes.[10] The documents formed the basis of a series of articles, the "Drone Papers", published by The Intercept in October 2015.[11]

Government investigation and prosecution
On August 8th, 2014, the FBI raided his home in Lorton, Virginia, in what he described as retribution for his political activism. In 2016, he appeared in the documentary film National Bird, where he described his crisis of conscience and the FBI raid.[13]

In 2019, Hale was charged with disclosing intelligence information and theft of government property. He was arraigned in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. In March 2021, he pleaded guilty to retaining and transmitting national defense information.[8] On July 27, 2021, citing the need to deter others from disclosing government secrets, U.S. District Judge Liam O'Grady sentenced Hale to 45 months in prison for violating the Espionage Act of 1917. "You are not being prosecuted for speaking out about the drone program killing innocent people", O'Grady told Hale. "You could have been a whistleblower ... without taking any of these documents."

Raided in 2014. Charged in 2019. Incarcerated in 2021.

But nowhere, in any of these cases can I find anything regarding an FBI obligation to report. Or who the FBI is obligated to report to? Or what time frame parameters the FBI are obligated to report.

[EndlessWire]

17. None of your case cites are on point

nor do they support your original argument.

Have a nice night.

[Saboburns]

16. Fo' sho'. Not only certified but registered as well!

Registered and certified!



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