Help. I need ammo for discussion on Student Loan forgiveness w a family member

[BlueGreenLady]

Does anyone have a link for the graphic comparing the average wage from 1972 to the average wage in 2022. The graphic also had comparisons of the cost of an apartment and the cost of College tuition from 50 years ago. It will be much appreciated.

[obamanut2012]

1. Whitehouse.gov has all kinds of graphs and tables

[BlueGreenLady]

2. Thanks

I'll check there.

[Ray Bruns]

3. All you need is the graphic the White House sent out with

All the republicans who had their PPP loans forgiven. That should shut them up.

[BlueGreenLady]

5. Yes that's a good one

I also wanted to remind them that wages have not kept up with groceries, rent nor tuition.

[MissMillie]

4. terrific Letter to the Editor posted in our very own Editorial forum

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016330398

[Tetrachloride]

6. College costs are way up vs inflation

Before Reagan, college was a lot more affordable, in part due to government grants, not just loans.

[The Unmitigated Gall]

7. Free school lunches are a slap in the face...

Of every student who had to go hungry.

Social Security is a slap in the face of every elderly person who had to eat dog food in the last years of their life.

Civil rights legislation is a slap in the face of every black man who had to live under Jim Crow.

"You know what IS a slap in the face?" I'd ask him/her...
Wealthy republican legislators living high on the public teat who took out PPP loans intended for struggling businesses and that have now been forgiven. Billionaires and giant corporations who pay next to nothing in income taxes. Welfare for the rich...THERE'S your slap in the face.

[JustAnotherGen]

8. I think this is helpful too

https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/


It might be even more important. Type in their zip code - and let the chips fall where they may.

It was quite helpful in a local town facebook group I'm in - and one of the folks screaming online the loudest - got an 80K forgiveness.

Shut her up pretty quick.

[BlueGreenLady]

10. Wow! That's an excellent link.

Think I can put it to good use. Thanks for posting it.

[CrispyQ]

11. Am I reading this right?

Of the $793 billion in approved loans, $742 billion were forgiven?

Their FAQ page is pretty interesting, too.

Frequently Asked Questions

https://projects.propublica.org/coronavirus/bailouts/faq

1. Why is ProPublica publishing information about approved PPP loan applications?

The PPP loan program is a major government spending initiative, launched in response to the economic disruption caused by the coronavirus pandemic. It represents hundreds of billions of public funds, an enormous sum that deserves careful and informed scrutiny. There are important questions about the effectiveness of the program and the equity of the loan approvals, as well as the potential for fraudulent activity. The information we’ve published on approved PPP loan applicants sheds light on this significant federal initiative. It is a public record, and the application forms for the loans noted that the information could become public.

2. I don’t want my business information to be published. Can you remove it from your site?

While we understand that loan applicants may not want information released about their loan applications, we believe it is important that details of the administration of the PPP loan program be available to the public. For those reasons, we decline to remove information on business loan applications from this site.

3. Where does information about PPP loan applications come from?

The information included on our site comes directly from the Small Business Administration via the federal Freedom of Information Act and was approved for release by a federal judge who weighed various concerns but found that the significant public interest in the information called for release.

~more at link

[Mr.Bill]

14. I just looked at my zip code

and found several doctors I know who are multi-millionaires.

[Lucinda]

9. One key thing to remember is the preditory loan terms

Many people have paid what they borrowed after several years of payments - but the interest is so high that they still owe almost as much as they borrowed in interest etc

[gratuitous]

12. Don't forget how unfair the polio vaccine was and is to the kids who died of polio

It's a slap in the face to their sacrifice that a vaccine was developed and now practically nobody has to fear going to a public swimming pool in summer or be confined to an iron lung.

Alleviation of any suffering (even financial suffering) is always going to come too late for some people. That's a piss-poor reason not to do something to help.

[tinrobot]

13. Here's some ammo, courtesy of Tom Tomorrow

[Sailingdiver]

15. This?

Link to tweet

[lindysalsagal]

16. Well, in 1982, my full time pre-tax annual teaching salary was $11. But undergrad was $20K, total.

That's for all 4 years, room, board, tuition. It was considered a "Richy-rich, country-club school."

[llmart]

17. Purely an anecdotal answer from only one person's perspective - mine.

Salary as a full time executive secretary in 1972 = $6000 annually gross
Apartment rent = $120 per month (4 room apartment; approx. 600 sq. ft.)
Public college tuition = $1600 per year (not including room and board which wasn't necessary)

My health insurance was 100% covered as a full time employee. I had a husband and baby too. We lived on a very tight budget and I kept track of every single penny that was spent which is why I know exactly how much things were. I still have the budget books that I kept where we wrote every single penny we spent down.

[haele]

20. Similar story growing up. I suspect the wage number was inflated to current level

In 1973, my mom made around $500 a month as a secretary for UW, my father made between $200 and $400 a month as an adjunct assistant teacher and high school substitute teacher while he was getting his degree at UW. Lucky thing medical insurance was provided by University, however, it still was expensive dealing with the occasional fracture or other issue normal for rambunctious children.
Our rent was around $200 a month for a huge old 3 bedroom, 1 bath 1911 fixer my parents later bought from the landlord next door ($26k at 12% interest on a 15 year fixed in 1979), and as we lived in Washington State with no income tax, our food, fuel, and sundry purchases for the family was just above the rent - everything was taxed.
Total utilities - water, sewer, gas, electric, and phone were around $100 a month. They owned the (2nd hand) family car free and clear, and kept an emergency savings account (2.2% interest, with fees for withdrawals) with at least $4000 in it and a second savings account with lower interest rate and no fees for larger purchases, school costs, or the occasional splurge like family road trips or an eat-out night. Saving was a big issue for both, there always needed to be enough in the bank to handle any disaster that could come up, or to be able to survive -or move - if they found themselves without an income or on a reduced income for three or four months. They both were young children during the tail end of the depression and through WWII, and they grew up paranoid about having a regular income.

In the 1960's it was a lot different, dad was in the CANG (GI bill) and worked evenings as a gas station mechanic while he was getting his degree and mom worked as a librarian, I think they brought home around $400 a month together, having and raising two kids in California. And we either lived in student family housing or in cheap apartments then. There were a lot of PB&J or Tuna Fish casserole months growing up.

So while things were tight in the 1970's, my parents made due with what they could.

Haele

[Fullduplexxx]

18. My response has been I don't care what you think about it

Did you know trump gave name of our spies to the leaders being spied on and now those agents are turning up dead?

[hunter]

19. Do they have overwhelming student loans? Do their children?

I'm guessing not.

Arguing with people like this, people who can't put themselves in another's shoes, is generally useless. They don't believe in gay marriage until their own kid comes out and wants to marry their same-sex "friend." They don't believe in free school lunches until they're out of work and their own children are hungry. They don't believe in universal health care until their insurance company drops them.

Personally, I'd start off by saying college and trade schools should be free and that the entire student loan system was a stupid idea. Let them argue from there.

I'm an evolutionary biologist by natural inclination and some formal training. It wasn't a lucrative college major itself but I did learn how to do some math, read scientific journals, and picked up a few useful lab skills along the way.

I used to waste a lot of time arguing with creationists. Now I don't bother. If they are irritating and in my face I simply tell them to go fuck themselves. Most don't really want to argue, it's just a grift.

Sometimes, if I'm feeling kindly, I might ask a creationists what proof they have their creator exists. Might as well start with the basics and avoid a lot of nonsense about Noah's Ark, the great flood, and the geologic record.