Weeks ago... I said ALL of this is going to end up in SCOTUS. Judge Cannon and Residual...

[WarGamer]

Residual Executive Privilege... wtf is that? Judge is batshit crazy, right?

So I googled it...

And VOILA.

Clarence Thomas... in Zivotofsky v. Kerry refers to "residual executive privilege"

In his opinion in Zivotofsky, Justice Thomas begins by saying that the
Constitution allocates the powers over foreign affairs in two ways: “First, it
expressly identifies certain foreign affairs powers and vests them in
particular branches, either individually or jointly. Second, it vests the
residual foreign affairs powers of the Federal Government—i.e., those not
specifically enumerated in the Constitution—in the President by way of
Article II’s Vesting Clause.”5 Justice Thomas does not define residual
power. Instead, he relies on an article by Saikrishna Prakash and Michael
Ramsey published in the Yale Law Journal in 2001,6 a work he cites
twelve times.



Any Trump indictment is going to have to swim upstream through Courts, defining and clarifying Presidential powers until it ends up in front of Barf, GoodHair, Handmaiden, Sleepy, Scalito and Quiet John.

[Grasswire2]

1. can you give me a link for that?

TIA

[33taw]

2. Every case involving Trump will likely end up there.

Even if there is a jury verdict at the District Court.

[WarGamer]

3. It can be blocked before a Jury Trial

Trump can challenge the indictment in Court claiming no laws were broken.

As the Courts tell him to stuff it, it'll work it's way up the ladder.

It's complex, with no legal precedent. Higher courts will take it up.

[gab13by13]

6. What indictment?

[WarGamer]

9. any possible (probable?) incoming indictment of Trump

[33taw]

16. I know. I am saying that even a jury verdict would be appealed.

[WarGamer]

17. yes, for sure...

They're going to need a new Court Room built just for SCOTUS to hear each and every argument about Presidential powers during the process.

[Joinfortmill]

4. It's going to be a fight for the soul of the country. Vote.

At some point, the SCOTUS mess needs to be addressed, but it won't be before the midterms or maybe 2024. But address it, we must. Hang on, it's gonna be a rough ride.

[gab13by13]

5. I think this means that Trump can keep the documents

and not return them? What else could it mean? This also must mean that we have 2 presidents at the same time.

Trump must have dirt on Cannon, I'm guessing this will give Trump what he wants, delay.

Didn't this judge also cut off the Wi-fi in the court so that the proceedings could not be listened to? Our tax dollars pay for that court and we should have access to the audio.

Bring Nicolle back so we can understand this.

[WarGamer]

7. This is waaaaaayyyyy complex.

It's going to take YEARS for all of this to work it's way through the Courts, fighting about Presidential powers, inherent and implicit...

Like I posted... it's not just Cannon... there are a lot of legal opinions and arguments about powers of the Executive.

We've just never had a crook bad enough to need to define those powers until now.

[gab13by13]

12. Wasn't this just about appointing a special master?

We aren't to the indictment stage yet. If the SC rules that Trump can keep the documents our democracy is finished.

[WarGamer]

15. the Judge is saying one reason a SM may be needed...

Is because there may be "residual executive privilege" in play re: documents.

I'm not an attorney... it's pretty confusing.

It does suggest that there will be a fight over Presidential powers every step of the way

[gab13by13]

8. I get confused easily.

Wasn't this just a hearing about appointing a special master? Does this mean she allowed a special master? It will take forever to find someone that Trump agrees with, and there can't be that many people qualified to choose from.

[WarGamer]

11. It's just the fact that she mentioned "residual executive privilege"

Which kinda confirms the upcoming legal fight to define Presidential power leading to a possible indictment or prosecution of Trump.

[gab13by13]

13. Doesn't that mean we have 2 presidents at the same time?

[Ohio Joe]

18. No...

It would mean once you are president, you are president for life… It’s non-sense.

[WarGamer]

22. I don't think that's what they mean by residual.

It sounds more like residual means things not specifically listed in the Constitution as Presidential powers aren't the only powers available.

Meaning, a President can do things that might not specifically be allowed or laws for/against it might not apply.

Residual privilege speaks more to "how far" do Executive Powers go/

And since Trump was POTUS when the documents were obtained and moved... that'll be the argument, I guess. I'm NO EXPERT and that's only how I read it.

Maybe it DOES mean residual, meaning power after Presidency... I don't know.

[gab13by13]

24. Yes but, after he removed the documents

he lied to the FBI about returning them all. Indict him for 1 charge, obstruction.

[Ohio Joe]

28. Not a chance...

Not even with his toadies on the SC. No power will be given to former Presidents. And the SC already laughed at the idea of any kind of executive privilege after leaving office. The crimes tfg is now facing all have to do with things done after leaving office.

[LeftInTX]

43. Hmm...they ruled on that the same year after the ruled on Roe V Wade...

They can flip again.

[wnylib]

41. However, he is no longer president,

so he has no authority to continue to hold the documents.

And I will NEVER believe that a president has legal authority to jeopardize national security.

[33taw]

19. or six.

[dweller]

20. Why 2 ?

Carter , Clinton , Bush , Obama …. or does the “residual power” wear off over time ?

😐




✌🏻

[Boomerproud]

10. Every single case will end up at SCOTUS.

🤬🖕

[gab13by13]

14. Then DOJ needs to indict Trump now,

on one of the most solid charges, obstruction. Let's get it on now.

[orthoclad]

21. Yes. I've been banging that gong

1. Trump cases will be heard by his tame Court
2. They have done a lot of damage already. They're just getting started.
3. They could hear Moore v. Harper before the midterms, a case which will "throw elections into chaos".

Trump's Plan Z is in place.

Some details:
https://democraticunderground.com/100217041982
https://democraticunderground.com/100216951825

This Court needs a floodlight shone on its practices and intentions.

[gab13by13]

23. We need to keep Congress

and immediately add 4 more Justices.

[BlueIdaho]

25. When do we decide the safety of our nation requires

The spooks “help” TFG fall out an upper story window with a gun barrel in his mouth?

[Ms. Toad]

26. Residual power

Every powerd over foreign affairs which is NOT expressly assigned to one or more branches of the government is a residual power.

That power belongs to the President under this provision of the constitution:

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

There is only one president at a time - while Trump was president, the executive powers vested in him (which is why he likely had the right to declassify stuff, and to grant clearances to his kids/kids-in-law without going through the procedures everyone else was required to go through). His exeutive powers ended on 1/20/2021. The residual (i.e. not expressly articulated) powers now belong to Biden.

[WarGamer]

27. Yes but the question revolves around what he did while still POTUS

That's when he took the documents, packed them up and moved them.

Like I said... there will be a battle royale in the Courts re: Presidential Powers.

Having said that... from what we have seen... he has broken the law in many other places. Like the obstruction angle...

I still think there's a clean line to an indictment, it just has to survive the Court fight.

[Ms. Toad]

29. Taking the documents has nothing to do with residual power.

Presidential records belong to the government, not Trump. He has zero right to take the documents when he leaves office. That's governed by the Federal records act. It doesn't matter whether they were classified or not - all presidential records belong to the government.

Residual power has to do with his right to declassify them. There is a question that has not been resolved as to whether the rules prior Presidents are binding since he has the inherent power (via the residual power granted to him in the constitution) to set the rules and to declassify things.

The potential charges against him do not depend on answering the residual power question, since they are not based on whether the documents were classified or not - simply on whether he had them when he had no right to.

[Justice matters.]

32. The investigation is about potential Obstruction of Justice. (We know he does THAT al lot.)

A DOJ subpoena means something...

It means he HAD to comply and return ALL the documents, and THEN, if he had any contention, file to get them back invoking what he might think the Residual executive privilege gave him the right to keep them.

That's how the system works, period.

That's the process he refused (or ignored and was too scared, due to missing docs?) to follow.

[Ms. Toad]

40. Correct -

But I wasn't addressing that.

I was addressing the suggestion that residual executive power had something to do with his ability/right to remove documents. It doesn't. relevant to all of the claims Trump is bandying about, residual power has to do with classification/declassification rights - his assertion that anything he took up to the residence was automatically declassified. It has nothing to do with whether he was permitted to take documents (classified or not) to Florida with him (and everything which was a direct consequence of that act).

[WarGamer]

34. A couple times I clarified...

This is just a HINT of the legal arguments that will be made re: Presidential powers and the ability to charge them with certain and specific crimes.

So I'm speaking above and beyond the "residual thing" although the Judge was quick to jump on it.

There is ZERO precedent.

Trump will argue "I broke no laws" and it'll have to go to the Courts and literally set precedent.

Will take years...

[Justice matters.]

38. Whether the privilege exists or not, the warrant described the potential charges.

Among them, there's that Obstruction thingie we know he does a lot when he's scared...

The process in the system is, when a DOJ subpoena orders compliance (in this case, it ordered the return of all the documents to the NARA), the subject must comply. The fact that the docs were classified or not doesn't matter in the case (it does matter to the NARA but, in this case, not to the subpoena's requirement). Then, once returned, tfg could have filed to get them back, invoking that 'Residual' BS all he would have wanted way up to the SC. The facts are, he probably was too chicken to return them all, probably because many docs were disposed already.

A lawyer signed a false declaration to the Court order stating that the DOJ subpoena had been complied with, but then, more boxes were found: Obstruction of the process... and THAT is a felony defined in the US Criminal Code.

That's how I see it.

Now, the fact that many classified docs are missing adds potential charges to the case.

[Justice matters.]

30. What Ms. Toad said, AND...

The fact he refused to return them to the NARA when asked politely to do so.

Then lied (or made his attorney who signed the false declaration that there were none left lie).

Hence, the probable cause of Obstruction of Justice when the FBI found 24 boxes were, in fact, still there.

[WarGamer]

36. Yes, seems like that

[Kingofalldems]

31. Should we give up?

[WarGamer]

35. my favorite critic... thanks for the reply, KOAD.

And the answer is no, never give up. Just understand it'll be a long and complex process.

[Kingofalldems]

33. Yeah theft has nothing to do with executive privilege.

Neither does treason last I checked.

[kentuck]

37. Do you think the Supreme Court would protect Trump in a case like this?

Perhaps the most treasonous act against America, ever?

[WarGamer]

39. I'm not sure...

But I can see at least Thomas and Alito covering for him.

[LeftInTX]

44. Yes because they are treasonous themselves

[WarGamer]

42. Maybe I should play the Lotto tonight?

"Any Trump indictment is going to have to swim upstream through Courts, defining and clarifying Presidential powers until it ends up in front of Barf, GoodHair, Handmaiden, Sleepy, Scalito and Quiet John."