General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt is with a very heavy heart, I announce the death of my 99 year old grandmother
Life-long Democrat.
WW2 Widow.
Grew up in the Great Depression.
She was more my mother than my "real" mother was.
I am so wrecked right now. I don't know how to live in a world that doesn't have her in it.
I should have known she wouldn't live forever, but for whatever reason, I thought she would.
I'm really struggling with a lot. My "go-to" stage of grief is anger, and I'm really trying not to hate my dad, who I feel killed her.
2 weeks in hospice with no food or water, just morphine. Does that seem right to you?
He insisted her DNR said no feeding or hydration, but TWO WEEKS!?!?!
Anyway, the world is a sadder place without her.
We've lost a wonderful Democrat, and a great lady.
Ohio Joe
(21,761 posts)Solly Mack
(90,780 posts)StarryNite
(9,459 posts)Karadeniz
(22,564 posts)Hugin
(33,189 posts)She sounds like a wonderful person.
So much history to experience.
Elessar Zappa
(14,033 posts)I dread the day when mine passes. If it helps at all, I was a CNA and we were always taught that the removal of food and hydration at that stage doesnt increase a persons suffering. One elderly man at my hospital survived 21 days with no food or hydration and he seemed at peace the entire time.
My sympathies are with you during these difficult times.
H2O Man
(73,594 posts)I am sorry for the loss of your grandmother.
Skittles
(153,185 posts)try to remember how lucky you were to have that wonderful woman in your life for so long
Coventina
(27,169 posts)A few years ago, I mentioned her donating $50 to a food bank on this board.
She survived on SS and her War Widow's pension.
(We paid as many of her expenses as she would allow us).
I remember you responded to the thread saying you were making a donation in her honor.
I can't tell you how much that warmed my heart.
Skittles
(153,185 posts)she wished she could have given more so I told you to tell her she inspired me to donate to my local food bank and I promptly made that donation! Before that I had made sporadic donations to them but that made me become a regular donor.....I also donate the gas money I save from working from home (pandemic) to that food bank
Coventina
(27,169 posts)I'm bawling my eyes out here!
Skittles
(153,185 posts)renate
(13,776 posts)That act of profound kindness and beautiful generosity will live on in the memories of all of us here.
I am so very, very sorry for your loss.
Coventina
(27,169 posts)Thank you!
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)I'm also saddened that your own pain is so elevated by the manner in which she died, but which cannot be changed.
I only hope that you can focus on her and the good memories. Thinking of you, just as you've caused me to think back to my own dear grandmother--gone so many years but still dearly missed.
Let her watch over you now.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,403 posts)She's with you, inside.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)LuckyCharms
(17,455 posts)Lost my mom when she was 94.
Mom's death was, in a few ways, similar to your grandmother's.
No matter their age, it hits very very hard.
Your grandmother sounds like a great woman.
Don't deny your feelings. You feel like you feel. I still have a lot of anger towards family members due to their actions during my mom's death, so I can relate to your feelings.
You will feel better. Roll with it the best you can.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)Nevilledog
(51,186 posts)world wide wally
(21,754 posts)awknid2
(5 posts)She sounds a lot like my Mom was. I hope you will pick up the Democratic mantle for her and try to be like she was. It will be a while before you feel better, but you will! Just keep her in your heart and you'll do fine!
malaise
(269,157 posts)Cherish the memories
Yorkie Mom
(16,420 posts)Maeve
(42,287 posts)pnwmom
(108,990 posts)how you feel
Second, with regard to your dad, I hope you can find a way to forgive him.
My understanding is that the dying person suffers less if they DON'T get even water. And so that's not an uncommon thing to have in a DNR.
Here's something about that.
shortness of breath
nausea
vomiting
digestive problems
aspiration
How can we determine how much food a patient can consume, when the metabolism slows down? Its simple, we observe the patients natural signs of hunger. End of life nutrition should be offered in a manner that listens to the patient. Offer them food and water only when they request it. These behaviors will be an indication that they are hungry or thirsty. They know their bodies and know when food and water are needed.
Do hospices prevent patients from eating and drinking? No. It is the patient who determines whether eating and drinking should be stopped. Many family members may visit and note that the patient is eating less, and assume that hospice is the cause of this change. The truth is that it is the patient who makes that decision. So, when a hospice agency denies you the right to provide food or fluids to the patient, they are simply ensuring there are no further complications added to the list.
skylucy
(3,740 posts)would set off awful coughing and breathlessness etc. She was in her 90's and did not want her suffering prolonged. Hospice was so kind and helped us make the right decisions at the end. She went peacefully and without pain. She ate very little at the end, but she was so much more comfortable than when food was being forced on her. I feel so bad for Coventina because she obviously loved her grandmother dearly and is in deep mourning, but I hope she takes your words to heart.
The Hospice folks are such angels. I miss my mother and think of her every single day, but I know that her passing was made so much easier by Hospice.
you on everything you say about hospice. I went through this last year with my my Dad. Cleared it with both my sisters and they agreed to put him on hospice. He still ate and drank, but it became more difficult as time went on. I, being the one in charge of his healthcare decisions, I eventually had to enforce the DNR after he had a massive stroke. Once you sign those hospice papers, and something like this happens, I felt there was no going back. Even though my sisters questioned me about having the nursing home take him to the hospital, I said I had to honor his wishes in his will and the DNR. I also reminded them hes 92 and do you really want that for him. They agreed. I knew he had been miserable the last six years of his life and they knew it too. Its a hard decision to make. It still bothers me, but I was just following his wishes. Like I said, I watched him go downhill, really the last ten years of his life. It was difficult because you remember how they took care of you, provided for you. Once you are in charge of an elderly persons healthcare you have to make the hard decisions. My sisters chose me to do that. They had their chance to do so, but they chose me and it has taken a toll on my mental and physical health. I am thankful my husband is here to help me through all of this. I also hope she can find a way to forgive him. I am sure he did not take the decision lightly. I sure didnt. 🕊
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)And what we read at the time gave us some peace. I hope it can help Coventina (and you -- I know it's an ongoing process, especially when other relatives have different ideas. We were lucky to not have that happen.)
Random Boomer
(4,168 posts)Seriously, read the explanation that pnwmom supplied to understand why. Your anger is understandable, but misplaced.
Picaro
(1,525 posts)we can do it
(12,190 posts)Aristus
(66,446 posts)scarletlib
(3,418 posts)Remember the good. She will always be in your heart
Emile
(22,887 posts)SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,951 posts)From you and your words I know she was remarkable human being, Coventina.
May you find peace and the strength to continue heading forward.
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)It is very painful to lose the people we count on most.
What you described is very common sadly. The hospital harassed us non stop to kill my father for a month by stopping treatment and giving him opiates etc. It is called hospice in hospital or something like that. They were the ones that put him into a life threatening state as well by drugging and restraining him with no food for 30 hours, giving him more dangerous anti-psychotic drugs right before he ate, not supervising him, then he aspirated and they did not give proper care which eventually led to his death. He had no food a lot of that time which certainly didn't help.
They were already trying to do that before he got to the point where they murdered him in the last month and after numerous negligences starting with infecting him with covid. Before you get to hospice it is called "palliative care". dni/dnr is a death sentence, many will not get the same treatment. If your loved one does not want to be resuscitated etc. you can make the decision according to their wishes when it comes to that. And that goes for all ages.
For older people it is a very dangerous situation because in many care places they want you dead and out of the hospital a lot of the time so they can give your bed to someone else. There are financial influences as well because medicare or uninsured patients give lower or no reimbursement.
My neighbor was sent home on hospice because the hospital told her son who was in charge she was on hospice and he agreed to it. She died about 4 weeks later. She had been treated for a uti at one hospital but not properly, she developed sepsis at home, went to another hospital and never fully recovered. I think she was just put on hospice and released early because they did not want to bother anymore and her son agreed to it at the time. Fortunately I was able to visit and she was eating and not suffering terribly.
People think that you are going to have a fast death when given these drugs but the fact is people can take weeks to die, at home or in hospital. It can be a painful experience for the family. I think my neighbor had a peaceful experience and was not suffering terribly. Her care taker was with her and she went fast. I was not able to be there sadly, I wish I had been. She was not on opiates, she was on her regular meds as far as I know.
What was described to me was that if people were able to eat they could still eat small amounts and some did not want to. But the realities are different for each person. I don't know what happened with your grandmother, I don't want to upset you more, just let you know what can happen. I would talk to your father about it.
My father made sure that his brother got a big dose of morphine when he was dying and suffering a lot, enough to kill him quickly. Tg he was there to make them do that. That was in Canada and his doctor agreed but other hospital workers were torturing my uncle in the hospital he worked in for many years as head of a department.
OMGWTF
(3,972 posts)They, too, were more of a mother to me than my own, from whom I am estranged on the advice of my therapist.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)She sounds like an amazing woman, some people should live forever. As long as you remember her she will always be close by. Hugs.
70sEraVet
(3,508 posts)when I dream, I'm often back home with them. I always wake up feeling grateful to have had the chance to enjoy their company once again.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)They cautioned us not to feed him or give him water because of the danger of it going into his lungs.
This lasted about 1.5 weeks, until he transitioned to spirit.
It was very hard on my mom & the nurses caught her a few times trying to feed him. 💔
He, too, was getting regular doses of morphiene, which slows the breathing.
Please remember to do good self-care: eat, sleep, & do regular deep breathing to stay centered.
Grieving is very hard work emotionally, psychologically, & physically.
Can you speak with the hospice nurses who attended her? Often, they have some beautiful stories to tell. 😉
greblach
(257 posts)When my Dad passed they had the same hospice prohibitions, I think they allowed us to give him ice chips...but it just was awful...I was pretty angry about it, but it was explained to me that giving them fluids would accentuate the pain...not sure if that is true or not but that is what I was told...very sorry for your loss...take care...
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)They were wonderful and, while profoundly sad, it was a beautiful experience.
So sorry for your tough loss.
greblach
(257 posts)My sister came down the hall playing a flute and my dad's ears perked up in joy...she played it again in church at his funeral, and I just lost it...
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)That is beautiful!
With my dad, we went to his fav hotdog stand, got some loaded dogs & passed them under is nose.
He smiled huge & began to sing.
He hadn't eaten or even opened his eyes in days. I cherish that memory.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)She had a DNR but everyday they would ask if she wanted a feeding tube (reasonable) and she relented.
She recovered and her situation continued to decline until everyday she would ask "how much longer do I have to suffer" and sleep 20 hours a day
It's a difficult situation for everyone.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Jim__
(14,083 posts)virgdem
(2,126 posts)On the loss of your Grandmother.💔
iluvtennis
(19,868 posts)Like you, my grandma was more my mother than my biological mother. She passed on to her glory in 1998 at 96 years old.
Group hug to you @Coventina
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)alwaysinasnit
(5,071 posts)usonian
(9,855 posts)I lost both parents in the same year.
They grew up during the depression.
Over time, that sorrow, though always there, turned into appreciation for all that they did and the wonderful people they were. Dads artistic and musical talent and Moms brilliance, compassion and spirit are with me every day, and I am thankful every day for them.
It sounds like you got your grandmothers indomitable spirit.
Over time, do share some of the experiences you had with your grandmother.
Youre the treasure trove now.
Warpy
(111,332 posts)probably via intravenous fluids along with the morphine. No water or food generally means none by feeding tube. If she had no interest in eating or drinking, they weren't going to put in a tube and force that on her.
I know you wanted her to live forever, but like that?
It's how I felt about my parents when they went. I wanted to have them around, they were my only family, but I didn't want them around in misery, benefiting from the best care money could buy, just for a few extra weeks.
Coventina
(27,169 posts)Once she was at that point, no, I did not want her to live even 5 minutes longer.
It was the longest 2 weeks of my life.
(Probably her life, too).
Warpy
(111,332 posts)especially with my mother, who lingered with end stage kidney disease and a few other things that made her life hell.
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)It is hard for us to wrap our minds around - because we often associate food and drink with comfort. But it is one of the ways people who are experts in gentle dying advocate for leaving this world.
I am sorry that apparently the hospice workers did not explain this to you - but you shouldn't be stressed that her last two weeks were hard because she wasn't eating or drinking.
Wicked Blue
(5,850 posts)murielm99
(30,755 posts)MLAA
(17,318 posts)💗💗💗💖💖💖💗💗💗
mia
(8,361 posts)wendyb-NC
(3,328 posts)She sounds like a wonderful, loving, strong and inspiring woman. Embrace her wisdom, and carry your memory of her and the soul gifts she shared with you. Grief takes time, it's about the love you will always have for her.
sinkingfeeling
(51,471 posts)Higherarky
(637 posts)🕯️🕊️
niyad
(113,532 posts)As for a dnr with no food or water. .that is not uncommon, and I have known several people with that directive. One lasted almost three weeks. NOT a pleasant thing to watch.
Your DU family is here for you. Lean as much as you need.
gademocrat7
(10,665 posts)on the loss of your beloved grandmother.
forgotmylogin
(7,530 posts)She was on in-home hospice for one week before she passed. Same thing - she was kept comfortable on morphine and the nurses said that morphine slows all body processes down so they aren't experiencing hunger, and forcing water or food might cause them to choke.
I had a whole bunch of sponges on sticks they said I could wet and swab her mouth to keep her from drying out, because it would have been very bad for her to aspirate any liquid into her lungs.
It was a huge adjustment and freaked me out at first too, but she passed peacefully in her sleep.
I'm past the sadness after two weeks, and am dealing with the depression phase. I don't feel like doing anything, but it will get better over time.
marble falls
(57,172 posts)Bless you both.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)fortunate to have had such a great mother and relationship. You'll always have that.
As for your father, maybe just make a plan now to someday leave the anger of grief behind? Keeping it as private as possible until then to minimize regrets. Your dad's lost her too, and he didn't get a practice run at dealing with the horrible, drawn-out reality of most deaths these days.
flying_wahini
(6,641 posts)It isnt unusual at all for people to go weeks without food. If they have had IV fluids sometime it takes longer.
Feeding people who are end stage is not helpful. People trying to feed/give fluids just causes them to aspirate.
Sorry for your loss.
TNNurse
(6,929 posts)it is hard to believe they will every leave.
You are so fortunate to have had her in your life for so long. She will always be in your heart and head.
Celerity
(43,485 posts)Response to Coventina (Original post)
Celerity This message was self-deleted by its author.
brer cat
(24,596 posts)We are here if you need to rage or grieve.
samnsara
(17,634 posts)dflprincess
(28,082 posts)It doesn't matter how old or ill someone is, we are never ready to lose someone we love.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)Its not a natural death.
Very sorry for your loss.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)If the person doesn't want to eat or drink, no one pushes it on them. It causes less suffering, because the dying body's digestive system is shutting down. Putting food or even water into a person ac6ively dying can prolong suffering.
shortness of breath
nausea
vomiting
digestive problems
aspiration
How can we determine how much food a patient can consume, when the metabolism slows down? Its simple, we observe the patients natural signs of hunger. End of life nutrition should be offered in a manner that listens to the patient. Offer them food and water only when they request it. These behaviors will be an indication that they are hungry or thirsty. They know their bodies and know when food and water are needed.
Do hospices prevent patients from eating and drinking? No. It is the patient who determines whether eating and drinking should be stopped. Many family members may visit and note that the patient is eating less, and assume that hospice is the cause of this change. The truth is that it is the patient who makes that decision. So, when a hospice agency denies you the right to provide food or fluids to the patient, they are simply ensuring there are no further complications added to the list.
https://hospicevalley.com/does-food-and-water-stop-when-in-hospice-care/
KatK
(185 posts)mercuryblues
(14,537 posts)Your father did what she wanted. He, by no means killed her. If her DNR did not say that, trust me the hospital or Dr. Would not allow it.
Do not be angry at him for following her wishes.
I can tell you 1st hand what it feels like to be accused of killing someone, when all I did was follow their end of life care /DNR. I still get angry and hurt to think that people I have been close with my entire life think so little of me to accuse me of that. So tread lightly before you irreparably damage a relationship.
samsingh
(17,600 posts)malthaussen
(17,216 posts)Niagara
(7,649 posts)OldBaldy1701E
(5,144 posts)bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)I've recently started trying to come to terms with the deaths of my Mother and Father....
I do hope you find solace somewhere.
I won't and can't do anything today to assuage your grief other than to offer comfort.
You have a family at DU.
I know from experience you can learn on them.
bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)I've recently started trying to come to terms with the deaths of my Mother and Father....
I do hope you find solace somewhere.
I won't and can't do anything today to assuage your grief other than to offer comfort.
You have a family at DU.
I know from experience you can learn on them.
soldierant
(6,914 posts)who himself has been through so much loss?
"I promise you, the time will come that what's going to happen is six months will go by and everybody is going to think, well, it's passed. But you are going to ride by that field or smell that fragrance or see that flashing image. You are going to feel like you did the day you got the news. But you know you are going to make it. The image of your dad, your husband, your friend. It crosses your mind and a smile comes to your lips before a tear to your eye. That's hwo you know. I promise you, I give you my word, I promise you, this I know. The day will come. That day will come."
Rebl2
(13,544 posts)So very true.
cate94
(2,813 posts)May she Rest In Peace.
highplainsdem
(49,029 posts)MerryBlooms
(11,771 posts)You're never prepared for such a heart loss. In time you'll be able to smile and not cry, with your memories. After 20 years of my husband passing, I still cry, but can laugh now too.
When I lost my mom, she was my best friend besides my husband. I was with her, and of coursemy husbandwhen he passed. I have amazing dreams with my mom, and my husband... Sometimes they're in the same dream.
You will eventually cry and smile. I hope you have peace of mind and heart. Then, one day, you will smile and laugh, more than you cry. But, you will always cry sometimes, and that's a good thing.
Take care, and reach out to folks for comfort. I am the praying type, which I know is frowned upon here, but that's okay, doesn't bother me. I find comfort in my prayers, and if it's okay with you, I will pray for you today. If not okay, that's fine, I get it. ❤❤❤
Ms. Toad
(34,086 posts)I hope you can let go of your anger with your father. He may very well have known of, and been following, your grandmother's wishes.
We talk openly about such things in our house. My mother (90) has a living will which expressly requests withholding nutrition and hydration. Personally, mine expressly request withholding nutrition - but I want hydration. My father (also 90) wants nutrition and hydration as long as there is a reasonable chance he will be able to recover and go play in the dirt. If, on the advice of doctors, that is not reasonably likely, he wants to be allowed to die (including withholding nutrution and hydration).
It is a pretty gently way to go, and there are some members of my parents' retirement community who choose to die by that means (even if they are not in danger of imminent death). My parents have been first hand witnesses to such deaths - and both still choose that path for their final days.
Snoopy 7
(528 posts)Weep in peace knowing that tonight she will fly with the angles
hamsterjill
(15,223 posts)Im so sorry. All I can offer is a wish for comfort for you. Please be good to yourself right now.
SheilaAnn
(9,709 posts)area51
(11,919 posts)UpInArms
(51,284 posts)My wonderful grandmother died in 1984
I still miss her dearly and still talk to her
she gave me so much and when she left, I felt that the only person who had ever truly loved me was gone
every day, I do something she taught me (and she taught me a lot
reuse, recycle, repurpose) and know that she is always with me
I hope you find your peace and know she will always be with you
((((((((Hugs)))))))
calimary
(81,441 posts)Im glad youre sharing this here. There are so many DUers with BIG hearts, and strong shoulders, and open ears, and they share, back. Lots of genuine sympathy and empathy for you at this rough and painful time.
You do not mourn alone. Always good to remember what our beloved Skittles once said: someones always here. Doesnt even matter what time it is.
3catwoman3
(24,032 posts)...the words "merged with the universe" when speaking of the loved one's death. I found that to be a gentle and elegant turn of phrase, and shall envision your beloved grandmother merging with the stars.
Raine
(30,540 posts)much sympathy to you and all those who knew and loved her.
R-I-P
CaptainTruth
(6,600 posts)Trueblue Texan
(2,440 posts)I know there are no words I can offer to comfort you, but I know that screaming, outrageous pain. I hope you can find a healthy way to express it and find peace. Thinking of you.
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)pandr32
(11,605 posts)ProfessorGAC
(65,159 posts)CrispyQ
(36,502 posts)spanone
(135,862 posts)Liberty Belle
(9,535 posts)It's really rough at the end of life sometimes. I lost both my parents to Alzheimer's and Dad also had Parkinsons.
At the end, Dad couldn't swallow anymore. Both were in extreme pain. Mom was more or less comatose, not responsive.
Dad took two weeks to die, with morphine, unable to eat or drink, other than just ice chips to keep his mouth from being too dry. There's really no other option. If you insert a feeding tube you can't take it out, and they're just a vegetable at that point.
Mom passed in a couple of days when she reached that point. There's no predicting.
At 99, your Mom lived a good, long life. Hospice wouldn't make that choice unless they were sure the end was very near and there was no more joy in life.
I am so sorry for your loss, andk now how hard this is.