Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kentuck

(111,095 posts)
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 12:54 AM Oct 2022

Where are the peacemakers?

This Russian war in the Ukraine could very easily flare up into a world conflagration.

The world would hope there would be someone calling for peace? "An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is walking around blind."

They need some sort of compromise or truce of some sort.

Where are the leaders of the world?

We need peace.

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Where are the peacemakers? (Original Post) kentuck Oct 2022 OP
Truce, yes. Compromise, no. Silent3 Oct 2022 #1
Putin is certifiably insane. rubbersole Oct 2022 #2
Absolutely! kentuck Oct 2022 #3
There is a zealous bully in charge of russia. No one's gonna force peace on him Bucky Oct 2022 #4
EU was getting 40% of its energy from Russia, for now only 9% NullTuples Oct 2022 #5
Putin says he's at war with the West and wants to conquer Tomconroy Oct 2022 #6
If you criticize the Western effort to aid Ukraine then you get called a Putin lover pecosbob Oct 2022 #7
.... MarineCombatEngineer Oct 2022 #22
Noam pretty much surrendered his credibility on this issue TheProle Oct 2022 #30
Putin wants the USSR back. I don't think there's any compromise with him. Hekate Oct 2022 #8
Peace under 3 conditions Dirty Socialist Oct 2022 #9
+100. nt MarineCombatEngineer Oct 2022 #23
Peace at what cost? The price Ukraine has already paid is beyond belief. To negotiate a deal Martin68 Oct 2022 #10
REPEAT AFTER ME StormKing Oct 2022 #11
Putin has said he intended to go after the West - Europe and the U.S. - for a long time Rhiannon12866 Oct 2022 #12
A friend of mine who studies these things ... Straw Man Oct 2022 #13
My question would be, "WHO are the peacemakers?" DFW Oct 2022 #14
Trump said he's available newdayneeded Oct 2022 #20
Excellent points. kentuck Oct 2022 #21
Agreed, not every proposal is easily dumped into one category or another. DFW Oct 2022 #26
K&R DFW Boomerproud Oct 2022 #25
Ukraine... 2naSalit Oct 2022 #15
Also the German, French, Catalan and Italian name. DFW Oct 2022 #27
Huh... 2naSalit Oct 2022 #28
:) Well, we know "where" China and India are, for two biggies. Hortensis Oct 2022 #16
If we appease Putin, he will only be more emboldened. Irish_Dem Oct 2022 #17
That is what Russia wants. NO. Demsrule86 Oct 2022 #18
Let the people decide in a free and fair democratic election... kentuck Oct 2022 #19
Every province in Ukraine voted for.independence from Russia Tomconroy Oct 2022 #24
Blessed are the cheesemakers AggressiveCanary Oct 2022 #29

Silent3

(15,212 posts)
1. Truce, yes. Compromise, no.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 01:02 AM
Oct 2022

Russia cannot and should not be rewarded in the slightest for attacking Ukraine.

I only wish there was enough leverage to force Russia to pay reparations to Ukraine.

rubbersole

(6,690 posts)
2. Putin is certifiably insane.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 01:08 AM
Oct 2022

Your wish for cooler heads is understated. The Russian ruling class might be the people that keep world from catastrophe. Media is starting to talk about a "tactical" nuclear weapons as if it's acceptable. This is nuts.

Bucky

(54,013 posts)
4. There is a zealous bully in charge of russia. No one's gonna force peace on him
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 01:21 AM
Oct 2022

You show me the leverage that anyone has over Vladimir Putin and I'll show you where the peacemakers are.

I agree it's sickening how many Ukrainian and Russian lives are being thrown into the rubbish heap by the Russian military. But the problem with the fascist society, which Russia has clearly turned into, is that it's very survival is geared around military aggression.

That is, it actually serves the interests of their government, whether we're talking about Putin or whoever it is that puts a bullet in his head to take over, to continue to wage futile war against Ukraine, no matter how great the losses. They can't afford to lose face. Those fools still think they've got a chance at taking over Ukraine's farmlands and offshore natural gas deposits. With that mentality, no one's going to convince them to cut a deal acceptable to the Ukrainians.

NullTuples

(6,017 posts)
5. EU was getting 40% of its energy from Russia, for now only 9%
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 01:35 AM
Oct 2022

They know there cannot be a "compromise" other than Russia leaving Ukraine.

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
6. Putin says he's at war with the West and wants to conquer
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 01:53 AM
Oct 2022

eastern Europe.
You don't believe him?

Pres. Zelenskyy is the peacemaker. Peace will happen when Putin is defeated.

pecosbob

(7,538 posts)
7. If you criticize the Western effort to aid Ukraine then you get called a Putin lover
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 02:25 AM
Oct 2022

Like Noam Chomsky...he's correct in that the U.S. and the West will happily fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. The West doesn't want peace in Ukraine.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,378 posts)
22. ....
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 10:11 AM
Oct 2022
The West doesn't want peace in Ukraine.


What utter bullshit.

The West has consistently called for peace, it's Russia that refuses to negotiate at all, they just keep on killing and commit atrocities and war crimes.

You kinda sound like you're blaming the West for Putin's illegal war in Ukr.

TheProle

(2,177 posts)
30. Noam pretty much surrendered his credibility on this issue
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 08:40 PM
Oct 2022

When he called Trump the “one Western statesman of stature” with a “sensible” plan for resolving the war.

Dirty Socialist

(3,252 posts)
9. Peace under 3 conditions
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 02:32 AM
Oct 2022

1. Russia withdraws from Ukraine
2. Russia pays Ukraine reparations
3. Putin goes to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes.

Martin68

(22,801 posts)
10. Peace at what cost? The price Ukraine has already paid is beyond belief. To negotiate a deal
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 02:34 AM
Oct 2022

with Russia that would let Russia keep Crimea and essential parts of Eastern Ukraine would be an obscene case of appeasement, and would most probably lead to future invasions of the rest of Ukraine by Russia. When dealing with a ruthless barbarian like Putin, it would be unconscionable to give major parts of Ukraine away in the name of "peace."

Rhiannon12866

(205,365 posts)
12. Putin has said he intended to go after the West - Europe and the U.S. - for a long time
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 03:50 AM
Oct 2022

And since the Western World has sided with and is aiding Ukraine, we've heard it called "a proxy war."

Straw Man

(6,624 posts)
13. A friend of mine who studies these things ...
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 04:35 AM
Oct 2022

Last edited Tue Oct 11, 2022, 02:18 AM - Edit history (1)

... quoted Sun Tzu to me about always leaving one's enemy a way out. If you completely encircle him, he will have to fight to the death. The problem with Putin is that he has completely encircled himself -- painted himself into a corner, if you will.

DFW

(54,379 posts)
14. My question would be, "WHO are the peacemakers?"
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 05:45 AM
Oct 2022

With Hitler and the Japanese militarists, it was never a question of fighting someone who said, "give me what I want or I will start a fight that will end human civilization in weeks." Now, it has come to that. With the 2016 election and Brexit, Putin has shown that he is clever enough to prefer winning his battles without firing a shot. However, he has no patience for those he wishes to conquer shooting back. The Ukrainian conflict was clearly a miscalculation, but not one he is willing to admit to. In a country where weakness gets leaders deposed (or worse) within a day of their supporters deciding to place their loyalties elsewhere, Putin isn't afraid to push things to--or beyond--the brink if he sees his own demise as the "one way or the other" end result.

No, we can't have a nuclear war here in Europe. But no, we can't be acquiescent if Putin decides on a first-use strategy, either. If Putin vaporizes Kharkiv or even Kyiv, and tells Berlin, Paris and London, "roll over and play dead for me, or you're next," they simply won't. The embassies of Russia and the major UK/EU/US group in Beijing will be on warp drive, as that will end up being who decides the ultimate victor of such a conflict, and Xi decides, in such a scenario, who takes orders from HIM, and not the other way around.

In Spain, on April 1, 1969, government controlled media extolled "30 years of peace." It was the 30th anniversary of the fascist victory in the brutal Spanish Civil War. Except for Franco's followers, in Spain, there was widespread talk of thirty years of victory, not peace. I lived and went to school in Spain at the time, and at the risk of losing their jobs and being jailed, my teachers openly discussed the subject, asking us to not use their names outside of the classroom. Victory is NOT peace. Germany in 1938 was technically still in a period of peace. Neville Chamberlain even called it "Peace in Our Time." Many Czechs, German Jews and Austrians saw things differently, but their opinion wasn't given a very high priority at the time.

The question of "when do you stand up to a bully, and yell STOP!, if he can destroy the world?" has never been put to the test. We can only hope never to need to answer that question, because I wouldn't know how to formulate an answer. I would never want my daughters and grandchildren to be denied life, but I would also never want Putin to be the one to control and dictate their lives, either. Hans and Sophie Scholl distributing their flyers in 1943 lasted days. Today, they wouldn't last five minutes.

Which leads me back to my original question. There are plenty of people to tell Putin, "That's enough." But what is the answer when he answers back, "who is going to stop me?"

A peaceful, prosperous, independent Ukraine would be at a trading crossroads designed to have flourishing commerce that would benefit the West, the Ukrainians, and the Russians. Does the world instead just let Putin take it, rule it with an iron fist, and dictate its life? And, if not, WHO is going to stop him? Is it not a moral imperative that we try? It is a clumsy, perilous, uncertain path, as we are in uncharted waters, dealing as nuclear powers who know what M A D means. But we can't be Chamberlain, because we KNOW what came of that tactic.

One ray of hope, if a cynical one. In 1939, Hitler was 50. Putin is now 70. Yes, Mugabe ruled Zimbabwe until he was 90, but Zimbabwe wasn't a world empire with nuclear weapons. Hitler saw himself ruling over the world for the next 40 years. Putin obviously does not, no matter how much fitness training he engages in. His chances of retiring on top are already wobbly as it is. I think that at some point, rather than destroy the world, he will make use of one of a number of escape strategies he is sure to have in place, and live out the rest of his days in the unimaginable luxury he can afford, and in (dare I say it?) peace. IF his current partners let him, that is.

newdayneeded

(1,955 posts)
20. Trump said he's available
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:50 AM
Oct 2022

for peace talk to end the war. yep, he seriously said that weeks ago.

Of course that would be a disaster!

kentuck

(111,095 posts)
21. Excellent points.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:53 AM
Oct 2022

In my opinion, we must be careful not to portray every effort to resolve the war as "appeasement". That is closing the door before it is even open.

DFW

(54,379 posts)
26. Agreed, not every proposal is easily dumped into one category or another.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 12:28 PM
Oct 2022

And the simplest are often the least acceptable to one or the other party. Still, appeasement is "the path of least resistance." It's easy because it's quick, but it always leads to repression exercised by the victor and resentment on the side of the oppressed. Anything even approaching an impression of appeasement must be carefully studied, and with skepticism, weighing all long-term consequences, and rejected out of hand if an inevitable greater conflict is the outcome.

Putin cannot be allowed to be happy with the outcome of this conflict, or the Baltics are next, and I see them as the next big miscalculation. I think Putin is convinced he can take them in a swift overnight action, and then smugly confront NATO with a "whatcha-gonna-doaboutit" smirk, figuring the answer will be "nothing." Not only would it lead to a full NATO up-to-but-not-nuclear response, and we'd liberate those Ukrainian areas not under Russian control as retaliation. Who knows, maybe Putin will just sit back and do in 2024 like he did in 2016: say nothing, have a shell company buy out the Murdochs so as to own Fox Noise (if he hasn't already), and pump five billion into the Herschel Walker for President campaign for yet one more "surprise Republican upset," as we've been used to since 2000.

DFW

(54,379 posts)
27. Also the German, French, Catalan and Italian name.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 12:41 PM
Oct 2022

How do you translate Дом into English from a language that doesn't have articles to begin with ? It means "house," "a house," and "the house." We have plenty of Ukrainian friends here, and those that talk of their homeland when speaking German, English, or one of the Romance languages always refer to it as "the Ukraine." German speaking Ukrainians here refer to home as "die Ukraine." It's not quite as universal in French. Our Ukie friends in France say "il habite en Ulraine,"--he lives in Ukraine--but "il va lutter pour pour l'Ukraine"-- he is going to fight for the Ukraine. I don't think it's up to us to dictate political correctness in a petty matter like this to anyone. Slavic languages don't have articles, period.

2naSalit

(86,612 posts)
28. Huh...
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 06:49 PM
Oct 2022

That's interesting. I was going with what my Ukrainian* friends told me but I am sure you, being in close proximity, would have a better handle on that and the other commonalities in different languages.

*They've been here for a long time.

I accept your admonition and apologize for sounding petty.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. :) Well, we know "where" China and India are, for two biggies.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 06:13 AM
Oct 2022

Us, of course. The rest of the NATO nations. Many others. There's been a lot written about ongoing efforts to contain Russia's aggression peacefully.

They're all extremely interested in giving Russia a way out, just that most realize it would be very dangerous to all of us to sacrifice Ukraine.

As Churchill, pointed out, “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” They know Putin has many independent states on his to-do list following Ukraine and that the first bite would encourage and enable the next.

Irish_Dem

(47,058 posts)
17. If we appease Putin, he will only be more emboldened.
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 07:31 AM
Oct 2022

Caving to Putin means all of Europe will be in grave danger in the future.

And China will most certainly be emboldened as well, and take Taiwan.

If all China and Russia have to do is threaten nukes to get their way,
they will threaten us 24/7.

kentuck

(111,095 posts)
19. Let the people decide in a free and fair democratic election...
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 09:26 AM
Oct 2022

...in the disputed areas of Ukraine. Neither country would probably want that to happen? To shut off all means to a truce or compromise, under the threat of nuclear war, leaves only the question, where will we bury all the dead?

If it is inevitable, there will be no victors. There will only be death and destruction.

 

Tomconroy

(7,611 posts)
24. Every province in Ukraine voted for.independence from Russia
Sun Oct 9, 2022, 11:51 AM
Oct 2022

In 1991. The votes were not close except in Crimea where it was something like 54% ( a healthy margin in a US election). The elections are over. There is no compromise with a war criminal. I saw video today of people being tossed in graves like we haven't seen since WW II. And the women always have little clothing. You don't want to watch them but this happens everywhere Russia goes.
You want peace? Help Ukraine win the war.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Where are the peacemakers...