Do you think it likely, as I do, that decent educated people around the world are just

[Atticus]

totally flummoxed by the fact that Donald Trump is not only not in prison but may again be nominated by "his" party to run for POTUS?

Do you think some of their assessments of our international reliability might begin with "If they don't even have the courage to punish HIM---"?

[LakeArenal]

1. They have lummoxes EVERYWHERE.

England isn’t faring much better than us in the leadership area.

30% of the world is ISIS/Proud Boys.

[PatSeg]

30. Yes, it seems to be happening

in many countries around the world, like an epidemic.

[Alwaysna]

42. Epidemic caused by Pooty

Putin has started propaganda and chaos in countries such as US & UK in order to divide & conquer. Donald trumps problem with NATO, UK's brexit fiasco are examples of such. His minions manipulated the public through social media . It was discovered at one point that Russians would have Facebook pages connected to white supremacy & black power full of memes and created "facts" to stir up problems. That little pinworm & his sidekick Trump has cost the US dearly.

[LakeArenal]

44. Yep!

[PatSeg]

67. This is true

It did not happen organically, though I think there was enough discontent and hatred to cultivate. Putin certainly is an evil genius.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I do.

The U.S. made a BIG DEAL of the Nuremberg Trials for the sake of accountability, not for punishment. Part of our national pride has been seeking justice for all.

I can only hope that we aren't let down like Fitzmas Parte Deux.

[MerryHolidays]

4. Wasn't Mueller Parte Deux? nt

Last edited Sat Oct 15, 2022, 01:07 PM - Edit history (2)

[emulatorloo]

12. I blame Barr for that. He lied about the Mueller report to protect Trump. Which was not his job.

[MerryHolidays]

17. Mueller still had a chance to overcome Barr

Fair enough. However, Mueller could have been FAR more forthcoming in his July 2019 testimony to the House. That would have been the time to overcome Bill Barr's obvious cover-up.

In Watergate, L. Patrick Gray, acting FBI director, told the Senate in March 1973 that White House Counsel John Dean "probably lied" to the FBI about key facts relating to the burglary. Arguably, that testimony helped to start a chain of events that blew the Watergate cover-up wide open a month later. It was the first time that anyone so senior had suggested White House involvement in Watergate.

So, to that extent, I still hold Mueller accountable for not standing up when he could have.

[spooky3]

40. I agree. He didn't have the courage to speak up for what was true and right.

He hid behind a ridiculous policy that was never intended for a situation like Trump's.

[lame54]

18. Shouldn't have been that simple

[emulatorloo]

19. His actions allowed Trump to claim he was exonerated. Media never really questioned Barr's

interpretation. Unfortunately.

[lame54]

52. And?...

It was the loosest fig leaf ever
In 3 weeks it fell and when Trump's junk was exposed no one cared
Not even the current AG

Trump beat the Mueller report in the easiest way ever

[MerryHolidays]

58. I'm not sure I understand? Can you please state another way? Thanks. nt

[lame54]

59. So, you rob a bank...

Your DA uncle says he watched the surveillance video and it does not show you robbing the bank
3 weeks later the video goes public and clearly shows you robbing the bank

But he is not fired and you are not arrested because it was so 3 weeks ago

The 2 of you beat the system so easily

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Mueller did his job.

No complaints from me.

[RockRaven]

3. Nothing has damaged the USA's reputation in my lifetime more than the popularity of, election of,

and unpunished criminality of TFG (and the persistence of his popularity and unpunished criminality despite an ever growing body of evidence). I think it's done more harm than the War on Terror wars, but I recognize that's sort of an apples and oranges comparison.

[cilla4progress]

5. Yes,

I do!

[Irish_Dem]

6. The US reputation has been damaged on many levels.

Our allies cannot trust us. At any time we can elect a known criminal into office who will betray them.

Electing buffoons and criminals to high office makes our democracy look weak and foolish.

By subjugating and negating women, POC, LGBT groups, we lose our moral high ground.

Our criminal justice system looks weak and powerless against the corrupt criminal GOP leadership.

What does it say about the American character when they apparently love corrupt, racist criminals as leaders?

When the American people stand by as their institutions are dismantled?

[rubbersole]

45. It's what happens when you let putin control your government.

[Irish_Dem]

48. Exactly. Putin's war on the US has been successful beyond his wildest dreams.

It was like taking candy from a baby.

[rubbersole]

53. Yep. Pootie installing a POTUS is the greatest espionage coup in history.

[Irish_Dem]

55. I keep saying it is the crime of the century.

Putin installing one of his assets into the White House.

Bribing half the US gov't (the GOP) to help him with the crimes.

Then getting the assets to destroy US institutions and try to overthrow the US gov't.

And the asset also steals so many classified documents, it is the largest security breach in US history.

Even when the asset is out of office, he is able to hide stolen documents, hold treasonous rallies and evade justice.

No wonder Putin thought he could sail into Ukraine.

The difference is the Ukrainian people are fighting back.

Putin's information warfare in the US is so successful, many Americans agree with Putin and admire him.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

70. Don't let home-grown billionaires go blameless in this 40 year war.

Putin didn't take over the judiciary and state houses. Putin didn't provide -all- of the propaganda.

[Irish_Dem]

73. Of course, the GOP were very willing partners in crime with Putin.

[Joinfortmill]

46. Agree

[onecaliberal]

7. How can they be sure he won't get back in?

[malaise]

8. Speaking as a foreigner

Last edited Sat Oct 15, 2022, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)

the question I hear from several parts of the globe is what exactly is the basis for Americans to believe they have a political system worthy of emulation.
Another point raised regularly is that the US should fix its own problems before trying to impose its will on others.

[Atticus]

10. Thank you. Anyone who does not realize that should "pull their head out"! nt

[dalton99a]

11. American democracy at the federal level is gravely flawed

[malaise]

16. The truth is that if markets are more important than people and society

then all so called Democratic political systems are flawed and doomed. If the acquisition of wealth and power are the only instruments used to measure success as in winners/losers, we are collectively fucked.

[Tommymac]

22. Exactly. Fact is, UNREGULATED Capitalism works the best in an authoritarian system.

This is the existential war we are fighting today.

Some form of reasonable, but flawed by definition, Democracy for ALL THE PEOPLE which leverages the economy and regulates the capitalism beast into being a beast of burden rather than one of destruction; to benefit event the weakest members of Humanity.

VS.

The greedy, selfish, ass-holish 1% who want their own form of Fascism to continue to exploit the 99% by removing all reasonable regulations regarding the hording of power and money.

[malaise]

27. You nailed it

[spanone]

33. ⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧ EXACTLY ⇧⇧⇧⇧⇧

[triron]

41. I think this attitude also may have led to the fall of Rome.

I fear too many are asleep or badly misled.

[llmart]

60. And there it is in a nutshell.

But...let's not forget that most Americans DO measure the success of our country mainly by its economy and nothing else.

[malaise]

63. And therein lies the problem

The civic institutions have been displaced by market forces and the promotion of bling in a variety of forms.
Wealth and power have replaced all values needed to survive and live in peace.
Reason has long been assaulted and grifters (including the for profit corporate media) push for profit opinion as fact.
Humanity has been fucked by itself. And this is a now a global problem.
Can we get out of this mess or will humanity blow itself to bits. That is the question.

[llmart]

65. I think we've both lived long enough to have seen that coming.

If more people had been paying attention and educated themselves (I'm speaking purely about Americans here), they wouldn't have bought into Reagan's "greed is good" mantra. I place the beginning of the change to that era of my life. President Carter was all about the big picture and conservation and then Reagan, who had so many people buffaloed into believing that he was some sort of a "leader", came along and used his acting skills to convince the masses that parting with their hard earned money was patriotic.

I will never forget Dubya coming out with his solution to the September 11th terrorist attacks which was, "Americans need to go shopping".

[malaise]

68. You can speak for the planet

These greedy, ignorant forces are in most places waiting to pounce or already pouncing.
And yes that Reagan/Thatcher neo-liberal/neo-con Structural Adjustment model was designed to unravel any semblance of a global New Deal.

[Celerity]

62. many States too, tbh

[malaise]

66. That Mississipi scandal is proof and DeathSentence's Florida

Is serious competition for Latin American dictatorships.

[Random Boomer]

34. Speaking as an American, I couldn't agree more. n/t

[Joinfortmill]

49. Yup. Love my country, but a little humility needed

[malaise]

57. There are things I love about your country as well

[Celerity]

61. Yes, the main surprise from many non Americans I know is that a bellend like Trump did not happen

sooner in the US.

[malaise]

64. True but the thing that keeps a sliver of hope alive is that others tried before

before the Slobfather and they too failed.
That said society is hanging by a thread.

[dalton99a]

9. He will be their next nominee as well as their next House Speaker

if they win the House and if he wants the House Speaker title - to preside over Biden's impeachment

[Traildogbob]

20. Horrifying

And if the GQP let’s him take the fall, especially for ALL those Lawmakers that helped it all happen, DeSatan and running mate Tulsi, could fuck us even more.

[Traildogbob]

21. Just imagine

DeSatan and Tulsi, McCarthy or MTG speaker of the house, Walker as Senate majority leader, or as bad, Graham, and any of the other GQP idiots filling positions of highest gubment. Think our rep is bad now? It could happen.
I mean trump or his spawn could be assigned to speaker of the house.
“The BEST is Yet To Come”. She was correct in that screeching comment.
USA USA USA! “U”believably “S”tupid “A”holes.

[Cozmo]

25. GQP will NOT prevail!

[SheltieLover]

13. Leaving ruskie assets in positions of power within our govt & not locking tfg up

Are recipes for disaster.

The fact that we even have to wonder on any level whether any of them will "face justice" speaks volumes.

Really sad imo & vastly diminishes our country's standing.

[joemacdawson]

15. One Canadian's Perspective

Someone mentioned there are loonies across the world. True. Right-wing extremism is popping up all over. Even Fascism in Italy. But as a left-centre Canadian, which would be pretty lefty in the States, one can’t help but see the hypocrisy and mythology being laid bare in the US. About equality and Justice and the like. As NATO members, of course American politics affects other nations. We share much of the same media. People watch Fox News up here too.
And times of extreme strife breed nationalistic notions. Buying Canadian and that kind of thing. A lot of Canucks will be watching the mid-terms with great interest.

[LiberalLovinLug]

24. And now with Poilievre on the rise, and Danielle Smith in Alberta,

Canada is also threatened by the rise of RW extremism. Like around the world.

Countries like Italy, Sweden, Brazil, Hungary, Philippines. Countries you don't expect to move so far to the right. And that includes the Republican party in the US

Its scary.

[malaise]

69. Add India and there are others

Scary is right

[Beastly Boy]

23. No.

Most of the world's decent educated people live under a succession of unpunished "HIM"s. They are way past being flummoxed. It's the rule rather than the exception. Mildly disappointed would probably be more accurate.

[betsuni]

31. Agree.

And they know how nutty America can be.

[Kaleva]

26. Does the average, educated non-American care that much?

What evidence is that the people in other parts of the world keep close tabs as to what goes on here?

[Thunderbeast]

28. Faith in "Goodwill of Human Nature" has proved a myth.

Time and time again, fear and tribalism are the driving forces of the human condition.

Brain biology drives it all. Hard as we try, the primative brain stem that regulates survival instinct, is exploited by those seeking power.

Hard as we try to socialize as a species looking beyond our self-interest, when we feel threatened by "the other", we react as our distant ancestors did.

Kings, Popes, Dictators, and Presidents understand it well.

[scipan]

47. Cooperation is also a human instinct, along with many social species.

Maybe not as strong as the survival instinct, but there are many examples of dogs for instance, sacrificing their lives for others in their pack.

Some of us are just extending our tribe to include the whole human species.

[Turbineguy]

29. Or the ability to recognize he's a psycho

[Lonestarblue]

32. I have long suspected that many people in various parts of the world think the US has gone mad.

I’ve been fortunate enough to travel to Europe and other parts of the world (except fro two Covid years). Here are the observations I’ve gathered over the years from conversations with people in other countries.

—Many Americans are considered rude and privileged because they look down on the people of the country they’re visiting.

—The French especially think Americans have no manners. One is expected to greet employees when entering and leaving a shop. Just walking in, looking around, and leaving while saying nothing is considered rude in many countries.

—Americans are perceived to eat and drink too much, and they’re all too quick to complain about food and service.

—Many Americans do not bother to learn the customs of the countries they’re visiting and are often considered rude as a result.

—Europeans especially tend to dress a bit more formally (and stylishly) than Americans. Too many Americans dress poorly, wear t-shirts and clothing that screams “American,” women dress in far too skimpy clothing and expect to be treated with deference all the same—again part of that perception of rudeness.

—And more recently, American gun culture is so dangerous that many people fear visiting here. They also think the US is so racist that only white people would be safe to visit. Those who have visited are totally dismayed that our large cities have such poor public transit and are so dirty.

—I’ve never spoken to anyone who expressed anything other than dismay over the election of Trump and the continued worship of him. They think the US has gone nuts.

Obviously, there are also good views about Americans because many of us are considerate and do take the time to learn other customs and treat people politely. Those who bother to learn some basic greetings and words in another language are also appreciated. Americans are usually considered good tippers, though this is something of a double-edged sword since we can be sneered at for not having done our homework by overtipping.

[triron]

51. And Texans excel at this. We see it on display here in New Mexico.

We have a downhill ski area on the modestly sloped east side of the sandias. I often hear references to the steep side as the 'Texans ski area '.

[Jack the Greater]

35. I does not matter what "decent educated people around the world" think

What matters is that the times require people who would make the subjects of Profiles in Courage look like bunny rabbits. We have two that cross my admittedly low-mounted radar: Liz Cheney and Nancy Pelosi. I am sure there are others, but these two are high profile. But neither is in the Department of Justice, which, I believe, is the agency that would begin criminal proceedings. I may be wrong. I have been in the past.

[Warpy]

36. he's done, he has next to no chance of winning

anything but a primary season flooded by religious nutcases. He'd have no chance in the general, too much about him has been dredged up by the FBI, the J6 committee, and the state of Georgia.

He's going to end up in jail for one thing or another, it's gone too far for anyone to say "let the country heal" and let the asshole skate. It's just going to take some time as his ever changing cast of lawyers files useless motion after useless motion to run out the clock until he kicks the bucket.

[HubertHeaver]

37. Decent, educated people around the world were totally flummoxed

when we elected ronnie reagan over Jimmy Carter in 1980. Followed by Bush the Elder, Bush the lesser and then tfg. We have a bad reputation around the world.

[markodochartaigh]

38. Side effects

And one of the side effects of the delegitimizing of the US as the Leader of the Free World is the move toward removing reserve currency status from the dollar. Before Trump only countries like Libya and Iran talked about this. After Trump even Germany and France were talking about it. It will be a dark day of quick and horrible inflation when the dollar loses reserve currency status. Probably more England after WWII than Germany after WWI, but still very painful even for the upper classes who are not used to pain.

[Martin Eden]

39. I thought our reputation couldn't be damaged any worse than it was with

Dim Son Bush and his war crimes in Iraq.

Sadly, TFG proved me wrong.

[Irish_Dem]

50. I know, Bush/Cheney looked like the US low point of all times.

Little did we know that was just the warm up act for things to come.

[Martin Eden]

54. I do NOT want to see if the next Rethug POtuS is even worse.

Vote BLUE

[Irish_Dem]

56. The story is far from over.

We simply do not know how things will infold.

[Joinfortmill]

43. YES!

[Genki Hikari]

71. Smart people

Know that there are plenty of idiots stupid enough to vote for someone so utterly brainless and irredeemable like he who shall not be named.

Smart people also know that our justice system is completely corrupt--and always has been.

That's why smart people aren't surprised when corrupt people thrive in a thoroughly corrupt system. They expect it to work that way.

[jcgoldie]

72. I think they are busy fighting their own Trumps

This reactionary shit isn't unique America unfortunately.

[Hortensis]

74. I think they're scared that America could elect a Bad Man again

because that endangers the entire planet. We've shown that they can't trust us.

I doubt most people give a thought to whether we punish tRump. As others say, they have their own issues.

[Meowmee]

75. yes obviously it has done a lot of damage

which will never be completely repaired even if there is accountability.

[StormKing]

76. Yes but also

They did the same thing for w. We got here by how we've been behaving for decades. As I've been saying for years Trump is a symptom not the disease.

We've been letting Republicans live in their own separate world for too long and never calling them out for it. Now they've grown up a whole generation that believes in an incoming civil war and that they are never told the truth by anyone but conservatives.

Great job.

This is what civility politics gets us

[betsuni]

77. "Why didn't Democrats stop Republicans?" again.

[StormKing]

81. Don't put words in my mouth

That "we" is everyone that's not Republican and didn't commit to this fight when it was necessary.

Does letting someone else get away with a crime encourage someone else to do the same crime? Remember when Obama decided not to charge George W Bush or anyone over the Iraqi war? You can draw a straight line from that to everything Donald Trump is doing.

You can also draw a straight line from individual journalists refusing to ask tough questions. Also not the Democratic party.

And news networks who have for years refused to call out Republicans because they don't want to be called "biased." Also not the Democratic party.

Same with LEOs and their obvious bias over the years. Also not the Democratic party.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Bye

[JI7]

79. This is such bs. Why do some insist on setting these people as victims

that are misinformed ?

That's not what ut is. They just have shitty views. They hate minorities and women and have other bigoted views.

Trump made it clear what he waz and they support it becsuse they agree with his hatred.

[betsuni]

80. Rule: Democrats are the government, government bad. Republicans are innocent bystanders.

Democrats control everything and have superpowers -- why do they "let" Republicans do things? Why can't they be more like Republicans?

Mean old Democratic Establishment coastal elites caused all the terrible economic anxiety by ignoring everyone and forcing the nice white people (who totally aren't racist or anything) to vote for Trump. If progressive policies were just explained to them they'd vote for Democrats. It is easy!

None of it makes any sense.

[StormKing]

82. We expected you to fight

As a POC who watched the entire W presidency in horror the least I expected was for the party to call them out and act. I expected people to fight.

They refused. Show me one real world consequence of the genocidal invasion of Iraq to Republicans. I'll be waiting forever.

We had a mini Hitler.

Dems didn't prosecute.

Then we got a real Hitler with a third angling for a presidential run (DeSantis).

Hate me for saying it all you want, being too quick to forget and forgive got us here.

[betsuni]

84. The economy was destroyed, that was the priority and an emergency.

The Obama administration had only two years with a majority in Congress, it took great effort to pass the ACA (with a 60 filibuster proof majority for only four months and ten days). Then the midterms and Republicans controlled the House for the next six years. No chance of any investigation or "fighting" to hold Republicans accountable since they, of course, were in charge. If there was something else that could've been done, maybe you can tell us.

[StormKing]

85. These are all excuses you wouldn't accept from a Republican

These are all excuses you wouldn't accept from a Republican.

He had a duty to prosecute. He didn't.

He set a precedence that Trump has relied on. Trump has 100% relied on Republican versus Democrat politics to get away with committing crime because that's what he saw happen. He has been the way he has because he knows that he can do what he's been doing business in government because he sees government doing the same thing.

🤷

It's all history now. And history books are not going to go for the excuses. I think we'll survive Trump. But historians are not going to act like he was created in a vacuum. Everyone that wasn't tooth and nail fighting the Republican party has a responsibility in creating him.

[betsuni]

86. How would a president prosecute, tho?

Republicans controlling Congress for six of Obama's eight years and obstructing everything Democrats wanted to do is not an excuse, it's reality.

Trump has always been a criminal. He doesn't know much about politics and doesn't pay attention, so saying Obama set a precedence that Trump relied on doesn't really make sense.

[JI7]

94. There was nothing to prosecute Bush for. Anyone who cared about Iraqis or anyone else

would have opposed Bush being president in the first place.

But we have a large number of right wing trash in this country along with other trash that claims to be from the left but whose goal is to help republicans win by lying and saying Bush and gore were the same.

Stop denying reality.

Saddam Hussein also killed a bunch of Iranians , Do you blame the people of Iraq for that ?

Bunch of dumb ass ignorant bs which ignores reality .

[Scrivener7]

88. "You?" Who is "you?" Are you not a Democrat?

[StormKing]

89. I am a Democrat. Nice Trumpian finger pointing

Got a MAGA relative? You learned the "change the topic and attack the author" trick pretty well.

[Scrivener7]

90. Who is the "you" that YOU are pointing your finger at, then?

[StormKing]

91. We who gave a ffff and those that didn't

Murdering 100,000 Iraqis was a very serious crime to some of us.

And then to some of you "Oh look the economy"
Y'all : *Wanders away*
Y'all : *Does a surprised Pikachu face when Trump wins*
Y'all : *Does another surprised Pikachu face that Trump politicians are multiplying*
Y'all : *Does an even bigger surprised Pikachu face that American democracy is under threat*
Y'all : "How did this happen I do not know."

Us : Face plant and deep sigh

[Scrivener7]

92. This is interesting. First, who are these Democrats in your mind who

didn't care about the Iraq war?

Second, what actions did you take about the Iraq war that these other - apparently awful - Democrats of your imagination did not take? I read you trashing Obama about it, but what did you DO that was different from what all those other Democrats did?

And, as you seem to think you are superior than those of us who were appalled when tfg won, what actions did you take when he won that warrant that feeling of superiority?

What exactly is it that you DO - other than "giving a fuck" which doesn't actually help anyone without action, now does it? - that makes you superior to all those other Democrats?

[betsuni]

95. What does that mean?

Us/We and You/Them? Who, exactly? This is a forum for supporters of the Democratic Party.

[Scrivener7]

96. Apparently we are bad Democrats because we didn't stop the Iraq war.

I think I missed the part where he did stop it.

[betsuni]

97. Something about an ffff.

Democrats are so often blamed for not stopping things as if it's easy and they just don't want to, . Annoying.

[StormKing]

83. Also don't put words in my mouth

I never said they were "misinformed" as an excuse. We have a party/media apparatus that are too nice and unwilling to call people what they are. And a power structure that refused to hold rich men accountable until Donald Trump and they haven't even had the courage to indict him yet.

All this chatter went around Dubya. Is he in cuffs?

NO AND THAT'S A LARGE PART OF MY POINT.

But sure. Let's put imaginary excuses into my mouth that I did NOT say and do NOT agree with and talk about that. 😒

[JI7]

93. lol, still blaming others.

[raccoon]

78. Yes. Yes. Nt