Lume feminine deodorant

[cyclonefence]

Lume is imo an important and potentially a life-saving product, and I applaud its wide advertisement.

The lawsuits against Johnson&Johnson demonstrate that many women do feel the need for some kind of odor eliminator in the genital area, and it's often a legitimate concern. We all have sweat glands all over our bodies and in parts of our bodies where it's not easy for the sweat to evaporate, bacteria can grow and cause odors, parts of our bodies like the underarms and feet. Some people have greater body odors than others, and for them, soap and water, even used several times a day, are not enough to keep them smelling good.

Anatomy favors women with more folds and crevices in the genital area than men have. For some women, it's a region that is difficult to keep dry and thus a breeding ground for bacteria and odor, no matter how clean the body is kept.

When baby powder containing talc became available, some women began using it to help keep their genital region dry. Women of color, already sensitive about racist beliefs that black people have a bad odor anyway, were and are particularly prone to use powder.

Men use powder, too, but their anatomy does not invite the talcum to enter their bodies. Many people of both sexes powder their shoes.

Johnson&Johnson capitalized on adult use of talcum for odor control when they brought out Shower to Shower talcum powder. I have a container of it in my bathroom, not for genital use but general body powdering--it makes you smell good.

So when I started seeing ads for Lume, developed by a gynecologist, my reaction was Well, it's about time. I hope all women who are using talcum to stay Fresh as a Daisy will switch to Lume and I hope the company gets very, very rich.

PS It would also help if men stopped talking about "smells like a fish."

[XanaDUer2]

1. Kick nt

[CatWoman]

2. here's an alternative to Lume

It's cheaper and has decent reviews.

I just ordered this last week: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Fresh-Parts-Deodorant-Lotion/dp/B092LNRYBJ/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=RJxEH&content-id=amzn1.sym.e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_p=e4bd6ac6-9035-4a04-92a6-fc4ad60e09ad&pf_rd_r=0YCXEHX5P3SKC8PJHRHJ&pd_rd_wg=CRUx8&pd_rd_r=1acee0cf-f80a-4792-93df-94b7d1311c9d&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m

[cyclonefence]

3. I'm so happy to see this

Did you see the New Yorker article about Johnson&Johnson's being able to slither out of paying large settlements when they lose these lawsuits? (no paywall)

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/09/19/johnson-johnson-and-a-new-war-on-consumer-protection

[CatWoman]

10. that's very disappointing

[albacore]

4. Ummmm.... never ran into that problem with those "vagina" things.

Known a few, and.....
How much of that odor is in the mind of the women?
How much of that odor is advertising-induced?
Everything I have read.... and experienced... tells me that a healthy, clean vagina does not have an objectionable odor.

Maybe we've gotten to the point where natural smells are simply too much for us.

[Ilsa]

7. It's not necessarily always a vaginal problem, but the more

external skin areas, including butt, groin, and perineum. Bacteria tends to grow in sweaty areas that are skin-on-skin. Can cause rashes and other dermatitus issues, too.

[albacore]

9. I was in Vietnam... in the field...

I know.... believe me, I know.
I was talking about normal flora and fauna and being able to wash more often than twice a month.

[CatWoman]

11. i had surgery to remove a lump from under my armpit

and it got quite infected from the moisture and bacteria.

I was miserable.

[Ilsa]

41. I have one armpit

that can get wet and smelly. The other side barely sweats/smells.

[CatWoman]

53. it's amazing how the two sides of our bodies can be so different

[milestogo]

54. That is weird.

Probably distribution of sweat glands.

[LeftInTX]

16. I think it smells more like ammonia than anything...

Where does ammonia come from?
Yep...you know...

However, I don't really have a "problem" if I shower frequently.
But I think ammonia is a big "down there" problem

[CTyankee]

5. Shower daily and wear clean cotton underpants. Jockey for women is my favorite fitting underpants.

Years ago "Our Bodies Ourselves" simply said "wash your bottom every day."

[cyclonefence]

6. The problem isn't cleanliness

It's keeping the area dry. That's why most people use deodorant under their arms--the sweat can't evaporate, and bacteria grow.

The genital area also has sweat glands, and in some women all the folds and crevices "down there" simply can't be kept dry, no matter how much good old soap and water is used.

Black women in particular use these products because of racist propaganda, decades old, that black people have an offensive odor.

Please read the New Yorker article I've cited (no paywall); I think it will infuriate you, as it did me:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/09/19/johnson-johnson-and-a-new-war-on-consumer-protection

[Ilsa]

8. I wear nylon to wick away moisture. Cotton takes longer to dry. nt

[Silent3]

15. While nylon does indeed wick away moisture...

...when I wear nylon T-shirts while working out hard (I sweat A LOT when I work out, way more than most people), I feel dryer, but very soon the T-shirts smell. Bad. I'm not fit company it a closed vehicle after a long hike, before I get home to a shower.

I feel soggier in cotton, but don't get anywhere near as smelly.

[Ilsa]

40. Yes, it has to be changed out faster. nt

[PlanetBev]

12. I read some reviews online

People were saying that Lume really smells terrible when it comes out of the tube. They said it takes about ten minutes on your skin to dissipate. I decided against buying it.

[cyclonefence]

24. I haven't used Lume

so really can't say how it works. I am just delighted that an alternative to ovarian cancer and mesothelioma-inducing talcum powder is on the market and being heavily advertised. If I'd been aware of any other product I wouldn't have singled out Lume.

[peggysue2]

45. I use Lume

The odor is very light and dissipates almost instantly. I'm a walker and the product simply makes me feel (and smell) fresher. What's not to like? The product is substantially more expensive than ordinary deodorants but you use a very small amount on any body part. And no aluminum to worry about.

I also love their lavender & sage bar soap.

[LeftInTX]

13. I wish I could get rid of armpit odor. I'm a she.

The down there does OK, but the armpits are in a perpetual form of sweat. Maybe it's my Armenian genes. I don't know, but I smell like a middle eastern market. Like rotten onions (No I don't eat smelly foods)

I wash my armpits with Hibiclens and use extra strength anti-perspirant

[Ilsa]

42. I'm convinced my coffee (caffeine) plays a role

in heating me up. Also, certain medications may affect it as well.

[milestogo]

14. It's spectacularly expensive, isn't it?

$17.49 for a roll on stick on Amazon

[Ms. Toad]

17. Yup. Making money off of convincing women their natural smell is offensive.

I've been watching more of the very few TV stations we receive recently. About every other ad is an ad for Lume. Paraphrasing, "Just a pea sized amount of Lume applied between your butt cheeks like this. I will demonstrate. Just kidding I won't." The ad concludes with mathematical nonsense.

It never occurred to me that anyone take those ads any more seriously than any of the rest of the late night dreck.

[milestogo]

19. Because a woman's buttcrack smells worse than a man's buttcrack.

[Ms. Toad]

20. Not unless adult men have significantly different grooming habits

than their younger versions . . .

(Not much experience with adult male butcracks . . . but some with the juvenile variety - and the resistance to cleaning.)

ETA: How timely - https://democraticunderground.com/100217285650

[cyclonefence]

35. The thing is that women have already been convinced

that their smell is offensive. That's why so many women are dying from ovarian cancer and mesothelioma caused by the use of talcum powder, particularly Johnson & Johnson Baby Powder, to control what they perceive as offensive, whether it is or not.

This is actually an important feminist issue imo.

[Ms. Toad]

36. Then the feminist perspective is to teach them their smell is natural and healthy

Not reinforce the message that they stinkl and give them a different {likely less harmful) way to mask the smell.

Have you watched their ads? While clever, they are entirely focused on shaming - then ride in on a white horse to save us from our smells.

I agree it's a feminist issue, but Lume (and their ads, even more strongly) is an anti-feminist solution.

[Ms. Toad]

18. Counterpoint. From an OB/Gyn.

Paraphrasing the doctor: I see more than the averay number of crotches. Stinky crotches is not a significant problem. To the limited extent it is, the solution to overdiagnosing/overtreating bacterial vaginosis (the asserted motive for creating this product) is not providing confirmation that the crotch is stinky (beyond normal odors) by creating a fragranced product to cover the body's natural smell.

Bottom line: It's probably not harmful - but watch for any new signs of infection or irritation. It's definitely not necessary - just use normal hygeine. The product is advertised primarily using gender-based shaming (women stink down there).

[meadowlander]

22. Jynx :-P

[Ms. Toad]

23. GMTA. :)

[cyclonefence]

26. This is a two-part issue

One is that some women do indeed, for any number of reasons, have genital odors. They have been using a carcinogenic product, which I find horrifying.

The other part is the millions of women who believe, because of misogyny, racism, and who knows what else that their vaginal odor is not acceptable.

You know, every part of our bodies has an odor, but most of those odors don't "smell bad" to the vast majority of people.

[Ms. Toad]

37. Then the solution is to teach them to identify odors which mean something is medically wrong

and encourage them to seek medical help to treat the source of the odor when it is not a normal, healthy odor.

But, as the video response to Lume points out, far too many women with normal, healthy odors have been convinced - in part by ads nearly identical to Lume - that normal odors are disgusting, and we need to cover it up so we don't offend people. Doctors like the one paid by Lume, recognize that bacterial vaginosis is over-diagnosed - far too many doctors prescribe antibiotics (or other useless medications) just to satisfy the patient's desire to treat something they have been convinced stinks, when nothing more than simple hygiene and a recognition that their body smells just the way it was intended to smell. But, rather than address the problem touted as the reason for Lume (over-diagnosis of bacterial vaginosis) by education, she contributes to the problem by creating something different to mask normal bodily odors.

Education is the answer - not another product containing masking-fragrance which is at best innocuous, and at worse can create irritation (and who knows what else, if used long term). While it is almost certainly less harmful than talcum powder, it perpetuates the myth that all women stink "down there." And because it just masks the odor, those women who do have a medical cause for their odor may delay seeking treatment because Lume masked the odor that our bodies intend as a signal that something is medically wrong.

[cyclonefence]

47. Several posters in this thread have stated that they have genital odor

and I am assuming that anyone posting on DU doesn't need to be taught by anyone. I think a woman's perception of how her body smells is her business. My point is that if you are going to use something to deodorize your genital area, there are now safer products to use in place on talcum powder, which can cause ovarian cancer or mesothelioma.

While the Mayo Clinic does not recommend use of any product to treat this odor, they acknowledge it exists, outside the parameters of odors caused by a medical condition:

If you have vaginal odor but have no other vaginal symptoms, it's unlikely that the odor is cause for concern. You may be tempted to douche or use a vaginal deodorant to decrease vaginal odor. But these products may actually make odor worse and cause irritation and other vaginal symptoms.
mayoclinic.org/symptoms/vaginal-odor/basics/definition/sym-20050664

The Cleveland Clinic concedes that healthy vaginas have an odor, which may become more pronounced at times:

A vaginal odor that smells slightly sour or tangy may be a sign that the pH level in your vaginal flora is slightly more acidic than is typical. This smell is associated with the good bacteria in your vagina, lactobacilli. Some people describe the odor as yeasty, similar to sourdough bread.
A slightly sweet or bittersweet smell, like molasses or gingerbread, may also be a sign that your pH levels have changed.
Your vaginal discharge may smell slightly metallic — like copper pennies — when you’re menstruating. This is because period blood contains iron.
A vagina that smells like ammonia may be a sign that there’s urine residue on your genitals (vulva) or that you’re dehydrated.
A skunk-like scent or a smell similar to body odor may be a sign that you’re stressed and your sweat glands are working overtime.
my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/17905-vaginal-odor

This is getting tedious.

[Ms. Toad]

48. It really is getting tedious.

Odor is a neutral term. We have been taught that those odors which come from our genital area are bad - and we must be ashamed of them and mask them. Way too many of us have internalized message and feel that we must rid our genital area of all odors, even if those odors are just the odors of a healtny body.

The feminist approach has nothing to do with denying that many parts of our bodies have odors - what it embraces is recognizing which odors are healthy, which are not, and it rejects the societal message that those healthy odors are bad, and must be masked. That's even the message from Mayo, which you quoted above. It's also inherent in the Cleveland Clinic information - which focuses on identifying what an odor means, not on eradicating an odor just because it exists.

This crap is almost exclusively promoted by perpetuating the message that women's genital area stinks, and must be covered up so as to avoid offending those around you.

[meadowlander]

21. Here's an assessment by a gynecologist not being paid by them:

It's a waste of money. Why are you hawking it here?

[cyclonefence]

28. Not hawking it, although it seems that way

My enthusiasm for Lume comes strictly from my joy that other products are being developed so that women who use genital odor-killers will not have to use a carcinogenic product. Lume was the only one I knew about and it was discussed about a month ago on this site.

Of course, cornstarch has been around forever, but it clumps in the presence of moisture.

[LuckyCharms]

25. I'll probably get slammed for asking this...

But this odor issue...

Is this really a problem unless there is a lack of basic hygiene or a medical issue?

I'm asking because I don't know.

[obamanut2012]

27. No, there isn't, except by

Folks trying to make women into some kind of literal Barbie doll.

No one ever talks about ball sweat.

[cyclonefence]

31. Whether or not it's needed

The fact is that millions of women use talc-based products on their genitals (and it's not true that soap and water will keep every woman's genitals odor-free. Parts of the body that sweat--as all parts of the body do--where the sweat cannot evaporate, like the underarms, can allow odor-causing bacteria to grow) and expose themselves to risks of ovarian cancer and mesothelioma.

And many men do powder their balls to keep odor down. Powder just doesn't have an entrance to internal organs from the balls, so they've been safe--and this issue has not received the attention it deserves because it affects women.

[LuckyCharms]

32. Everyone, no matter their gender, has a scent.

With any woman I've ever been intimate with, I've never been offended by any type of odor anywhere on their body.

That leads me to question whether this product is a "solution looking for a problem".

As an interesting side note, the internet tells me that there are more than a few men who don't wash their butt because they are afraid it will "make them gay". I can't get my head around this. They think that just letting the shower water run down their butt crack will do the trick. A lot of men don't wash below their knees either, thinking that the water will take care of it.

Crazy world.

[yardwork]

33. Well, they do, but men think it's funny.

That's the difference. Men laugh about their body functions, etc., while women feel shamed about their normal body. It's too bad.

[Elessar Zappa]

46. It's like farting.

If a dude farts it hilarious but if a woman accidentally lets one slip, she’ll likely feel very humiliated and embarrassed. It’s a double standard.

[LeftInTX]

44. Vaginal infections and sperm can cause vaginal smells to increase

[seaglass]

29. No idea why this offensive post was un-deleted.

Wash yourselves.

[Ms. Toad]

39. Agreed.

Perpeyuating body shaming should have no place on DU.

[JuJuChen]

30. it's all about diet to be honest but understand the need for this

[Ilsa]

43. and possibly medications. nt

[iemanja]

51. meat increases body odor

and makes it fouler. I've noticed my odor has decreased since I went vegetarian.

[yardwork]

34. I think that your choices about your body are yours.

It's nobody else's businesses. However, I'm guessing that everybody else thinks you smell just fine, whether you use these products or not. I've noticed that most of us can't smell very well anyway, between allergies, age, etc. Humans seem to be losing our sense of smell.

[Mossfern]

38. What's wrong with using corn starch?

Most baby powders are made with cornstarch now.

[Lars39]

52. Cornstarch feeds yeast infections.

[Mossfern]

55. Not necessarily so

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6387672/

I know from personal experience that it doesn't.
Yes, I thought the same in the past.

[NickB79]

49. There is no scientific evidence talc is carcinogenic though

The early studies were done with small sample sizes, and the subsequent court payouts were based off of them.

However, in 2021 a MASSIVE study with over 250,000 women participating was released, peer-reviewed, and published in JAMA. It wasn't able to replicate the earlier studies, as it found no evidence that the use of talcum powder by women increased their risk of ovarian cancer. As far as I've read, this is still the gold standard study, with no others coming close to it's scale.

https://www.ajmc.com/view/jama-study-finds-no-link-between-talc-powder-ovarian-cancer

A JAMA study of more than 250,000 women published today found no significant link between the use of powder in the genital area and risk of ovarian cancer among women. The prospective observational study collected data from 4 US-based studies that took place between 1976 and 2017, including The Nurses’ Health Study, The Nurses’ Health Study II, The Sister Study, and The Women’s Health Initiative Observational Study.

Many powder products contain mineral talc, which has been investigated as a carcinogen due to its relationship to asbestos. Asbestos has been previously determined to have carcinogenic effects. Talc and asbestos may be mined in the same location, but in 1976 all US-based manufacturers of cosmetic talc agreed to ban asbestos. The International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded there is “only ‘possible’ evidence that perineal use of talc-based body powder may be carcinogenic.”

The study included a pool of 252,745 women with a median age baseline of 57 years. According to authors, this is the largest study on the topic ever conducted. Exposure was measured by dividing those who used powder in the genital area into ever users (long-term ≥20 years) and frequent users (≥1 week). Thirty-eight percent of those sampled reported use and women who did not use powder were excluded from the study. Of that 38%, 10% reported long-term use and the remaining 22% reported frequent use.

Researchers note an apparent generational trend in the use of powder in the genital area, as older women were more likely to report the practice. Use also varied among women of different races and education levels. The data showed ever users were more likely to be black, obese, or to have had a hysterectomy and less likely to have used oral contraceptives.

[Mossfern]

56. I think in the Johnson and Johnson case

the offending mineral was asbestos that was found in the talc.

[NickB79]

57. And many of the women in this study would have used that brand

As it was one of the most popular ones during their lifetimes. The average age was mid-50's for study participants.

Even then, it found no connection.

[XanaDUer2]

50. My take on this

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10181716410

[cyclonefence]

59. "Sell sandals to Jesus"

Stolen. Right now. Genius.