May we please stop stigmatizing mental health care in this country with threads in which DUers

[mahatmakanejeeves]

seek to have people with whom they disagree politically declared "mentally ill"?

Could you get more Soviet? This is right out of their playbook.

You're not doing anybody any favors. The threads are as funny as threads about prison rape.

Full disclosure: I have suffered from severe depression my entire life. I guess that makes me mentally ill.

Senator Eagleton's treatment for depression sank his prospects as a vice-presidential candidate in 1972. Ha ha ha. I can't stop laughing when I think about it.

Thank you.

[Treefrog]

1. K and r.

[SheltieLover]

2. Kicking for visibility

[delisen]

3. Thank you. nt

[thucythucy]

4. Thank you for posting this.

Best wishes--

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. K&R. Our culture has a terrible understanding of mental health, and when you add in the stigma of

addiction and the strong cultural impulse to criminalize any damn thing, you see it in some really cruel threads here.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

6. I couldn't agree more.

I still suffer from bouts of PTSD, but I certainly don't consider myself mentally ill.

[gab13by13]

7. I apologize for my stupidity and lack of understanding of mental illness.

All of the QAnon and incendiary language that has become normalized by politicians and the media just seems to me to be wrong. I chose the wrong way to express my disgust. I once again sincerely apologize.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

9. Thank you. I have disagreements with a lot of people.

That does not make them -- or me -- mentally ill.

All it means is that we disagree.

Thank you again.

[Elessar Zappa]

8. Yes.

Thank you. Most of the people that are labeled “mentally ill” on this website are nothing of the sort. They’re just vile, evil assholes.

[stopdiggin]

52. +1. THAT is the flat truth. -(nt)-

[BannonsLiver]

59. How long before those terms are verboten?

If people like the OP had their way the only thing you’d be able to call Trump and his ilk are “not very nice” or “troubled”.

[Elessar Zappa]

60. Well,

I have no problems calling people what they are. What I disagree with is the notion that all of these people are mentally ill.

[Takket]

10. Here here!!!

Mental illness is a medical condition and should have all the same protections as race, gender, and protect groups have on DU

[Just A Box Of Rain]

11. I hear you.

[Ocelot II]

12. Absolutely right.

With very rare exceptions people are legally and morally responsible for their actions, and depicting those who hold extreme views as mentally ill is unfair to those who do suffer from some form of mental illness, while basically excusing the bad acts of the actors. Yes, it's fair to characterize the Qanon and other right-wing conspiracy theories as "crazy" because these ideas are not rational. This does not mean we can simply dismiss the people who believe them, who, while perhaps gullible and deluded, as simply mentally ill. Some might be; the guy who attacked Paul Pelosi sounds pretty disturbed. But each person must be evaluated individually and it is unfair and perpetuating a falsehood to do otherwise.

[stopdiggin]

53. I like this for being more nuanced than some

of the other posts here.

If we can't describe someone as 'crazy' (or mentally ill) - and I think 99% of us are not wishing to stigmatize or degrade - then we do need some kind of nomenclature (wacko, nutso, batsh*t, fruitcake) to describe those individuals who - while not technically incompetent - embrace beliefs that are so fringe and extreme, and occasionally delusional and dangerous, as to be clearly outside norm. And to pretend that there isn't something really different going on with some of these individuals that are flying high - and way out in the weeds - is to ignore basic realities. To pretend also that they don't represent certain costs and threat to society, is also papering over the truth. Clearly they do.
(cult members too, are not mentally ill - but there are quite clearly dangers and consequences)

So - while I have no desire whatsoever to offend - I do need to be able to describe people that believe in pizza parlor slavery and sex trafficking - as something - completely off the beam.

"then give me another word for it .. " - Joan Baez, 'Diamonds and Rust' -

[Ocelot II]

54. The question is whether a person who believes irrational ideas, things we call "crazy,"

must be mentally ill; otherwise why would they believe such things? There's no easy answer. Lately a lot of people who are (or were) otherwise sane, as that term is normally understood, have inexplicably fallen down the rabbit hole of Qanon and other conspiracy theories. Are those people mentally ill? In some cases, maybe. Mental illness is usually regarded as a psychological condition that significantly impairs a person's ability to manage their daily life. But some people are able to hold down jobs and maintain relationships while still believing or at least promulgating rank nonsense.

TFG's lawyers, for example, have mostly been able to function more or less normally as lawyers while making the most outrageous, absurd and utterly unbelievable arguments. Some probably don't actually believe their own bullshit; others have found themselves suspended or disbarred on account of presenting bullshit to courts. In that regard their lives have been impaired, but I don't think most of those lawyers would be considered mentally ill in the clinical sense (Lynn Wood might be an exception). I just finished a new biography of Rudy Giuliani, which was fascinating. Many people have wondered how he declined from a smart, competent (though assholish) prosecutor to a fanatical conspiracy theorist and election-denier. The author thinks the cause of his fall was moral, not psychological, although his heavy drinking might have been a factor. Basically, he posits that after Rudy was no longer the mayor of NY and later lost a presidential primary, he became so desperate for influence and relevance that he was willing to do and say whatever was necessary to keep riding TFG's coattails. But he's not mentally ill. He's bad, not mad.

On the other hand, there are certainly some people who have become right-wing conspiracy believers who are mentally ill in some respect - most probably would not qualify for an insanity defense, but they are disturbed enough that their ordinary lives - their jobs, their relationships - are negatively affected by their trips down the rabbit hole. These people are particularly susceptible to the stochastic terrorism of some GOP politicians. I do not know why some people are so easily influenced by conspiracy theories, but they are out there. But instead of stigmatizing people we need to focus on the madness of their beliefs and figure out how to counter them.

[stopdiggin]

55. a lot (most?) are quite clearly NOT mentally ill an any clinical sense

My point - regardless of any clinical diagnosis - we need to recognize what is going on with these people. And we need (usable) descriptors for their aberrant behaviors and beliefs. I need words that I can use in describing somebody that has disappeared down a rabbit hole. And that's important because those behaviors and beliefs are toxic to society - and your and my well being.

Because I'm sorry but weak kneed palaver like 'inculcated' or 'susceptible', or 'influenced' - just doesn't get the point across as well as 'whack job' or 'deranged.' (with due apologies)

[Ocelot II]

56. How about "deluded"?

[XanaDUer2]

13. I alerted on someone using the word "nutso"

In a post, and it was allowed to stay. I asked them to not use terms like that. No answer.

[GenXer47]

14. noted, however

if you're talking about MAGAtards then it's not a matter of "disagreement politically".
It's not a POLITICAL stance to favor the overthrow of the United States.
POLITICS is the set of peaceful actions and words that contribute to the management of society.
WAR is what you get when you don't want to cooperate with that.
If it's one's opinion is that our society must be burnt to the ground, and replaced with a Christo-fascist regime, I'm sorry, but that is a declaration of WAR.
Is it not crazy, to hope for a civil war? What word would you use?

[Dysfunctional]

23. Indoctrinated

[wnylib]

28. Um, yes it is a political stance to favor

the overthrow of the US government, led by an anti democracy political party, just as it was a political stance for the Nazi party to overthrow democracy in Germany.

Nazis claimed to do it in the name of social stability. MAGAs have a similar view of authoritarian stability for society.

[plimsoll]

44. Inculcated.

And it has the added benefit of sounding like it has "cult" in it.
Downside, we'll sound like elitists because we use big words.

[RockCreek]

15. KnR n/t

[redstatebluegirl]

16. K&R

[Evolve Dammit]

17. Thanks for the post!

[onenote]

18. Thanks

[iluvtennis]

19. I agree @mahatmakanejeeves. DU, we are better than than. Peace. n/t

[Warpy]

20. People who choose to be mentally ill are still mentally ill

People who slavishly follow a cult leader are definitely mentally ill and at some point they chose that path to follow. People in power who believe their own bullshit are mentally ill, but they didn't start out that way. They just had their bullshit reflected back at them by yes men for so long they started to believe it and act as though it's factual.

Anyone lost in delusion is mentally ill, but if they voluntarily chose it, they don't get the dignity of a medical diagnosis. Rather, they're bonkers, nuts, out to lunch, off their rockers, a burnt out light in the marquee, and so forth.

Are they delusional? You bet. Are they acting on that delusion as though it's reality? Check. Is it organic? Nope. They chose to be what they are. They get little sympathy from me. My sympathy lies with their victims, usually family they've rejected or who have had to cut ties because of the constant bullying.

My opprobrium is directed at those who created their delusional world.

[BaronChocula]

21. K&R

[Martin68]

22. As someone who has suffered from depression, I heartily agree, Jeeves.

[emulatorloo]

24. History of mental illness in my family and my mom and wife and myself worked in mental health

facilities. I suffer from depression. So I definitely agree w your point.

OTOH I am not surprised to hear Q Anon cultists described on DU as detached from reality and delusional. Their families are being destroyed by it because the Q Anon family member refuses to get the help they need.

Q-Anon Casualties
https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties

But I really don't see many threads by DU’ers claiming that mere political disagreements = mental illness.

Nor do I see DU’ers denigrating mental health professionals. Ever.

My personal concern about politicians who use violent rhetoric is they may be trying to manipulate mentally ill persons to act on violent rhetoric.

[c-rational]

25. K&R

[CaptainTruth]

26. Thank you. Can I ask everyone for a favor?

I've had this discussion about the use of "mentally ill" & how it's inappropriate. I get that. An illness is a medical condition.

So could my fellow DUers please suggest alternate terms or phrases?

To be clear, I'm talking about folks like some MAGAts who seem incapable of thinking normally, incapable of normal, rational, logical, thought. The things they believe are delusional fantasies & even when presented with truth, facts, & reality, they seem incapable of comprehending it.

Certainly they're brainwashed, & I've used that term a lot, but I've also used "mentally defective" because their thought process is certainly defective, & it avoids the implication that the condition is a medical one.

Feedback is welcomed.

[iemanja]

33. Idenitify the problem

Talk about how they seem incapable to normal, rational and logical thought, just as you did in your post above.

[wnylib]

34. Indoctrinated is accurate without any reference to

mental health. Anyone in the right set of circumstances can be indoctrinated. People under emotional stress or with poor critical reasoning skills can be vulnerable to it and not be mentally ill.

And mentally ill people can function well and rationally in society without becoming indoctrinated beyond reason by hate messages.

Indoctrination seems to be the appropriate term to use regarding MAGAs. I believe that many of them get sucked into the MAGAverse to satisfy some emotional need. Hatred toward others can be a means of dealing with insecurity and low self esteem. That us vs. them thing is a way to be assured of being in the "us" category by hating and dehumanizing the "them" people. It is twisted "thinking" based on emotions, but is not mental illness.

I have been guilty of using the term "nut cases" a few times, but in the future will not be so lazy about choosing more accurate language for people whose political ideas show evidence of indictrination combined with poor critical reasoning skills and an emotional need to hate.

[TygrBright]

27. Agree with you about stigmatizing mental illness...

You can see my take on it in my Journal.

BUT - your heading is a bit misleading, because I'm all in favor of calling out (is it "stigmatizing" when it's simply accurate description?) what is painfully euphemistically called "mental health care" in America.

Here is Fuller Torrey's (a VERY smart observer who's been in the field a long time) take on mental health care in America.

Short version: It's suckier than it's ever been for pretty much everyone, and it's always been pretty sucky.

Pre-Reagan it was "dump them in a mental hospital" and that might not have been too bad in some cases EXCEPT that mental hospitals a) were never funded to provide even basic conditions of human decency for most inmates; and b) even where they were well-intentioned, they still relied on a horrific array of "treatments" that rarely did much except make people suffer.

Then things "improved" by "deinstitutionalizing" people. That is, putting them on the streets where they could be homeless and miserable and get even less help.

We are now in a bifurcated system where we have pharmacological interventions available for those who can afford to pay, and some of those pharmacological interventions make some short-term improvements possible but do little for long-term well-being (and may have hellish side effects), and some of those pharmacological interventions eventually produce no results at all and have vicious withdrawal profiles when the people taking them realize they're no longer helping. We do have a few, painfully few, interventions in therapeutic technique that provide some assistance for some people, but again, they're available only for those who can afford them.

Everyone else, that is, those who can't afford to private-pay for non-harmful interventions for as long as they are needed, is just fucked. Fucked on their own, fucked on the street, fucked in a hellscape of uncaring greed-headed "mental health care" underfunded, under-reseached and unavailable.

So, yeah, stigmatize that from hell to breakfast.

But quit conflating "mentally ill" with "evil" or "stupid" or "catastrophically bad at decision-making."

helpfully,
Bright

[Mad_Machine76]

39. +1

[justhanginon]

29. K and R Agree totally.

[ffr]

30. It's out of compasion

It's out of compassion that some of us view RWNJs in the light of mentally unbalanced. And it's not a stretch to say that, simply because we've all been affected by Pb lead poisoning. That's fact. Your parents, their parents and perhaps their parents parents have all been exposed to elevated levels of lead poisoning due to tetra-ethyl lead (TEL) enhanced gasoline, which was available worldwide from the early 1920s through to about the mid-1980s and is in limited use to this day in global civil aviation. Which means we're still breathing in lead aerosols to this day.

In case anyone is wondering, there is no cure for lead poisoning and NO level of lead exposure is consider safe. IIRC, worldwide the average person measures 4 points lower on the IQ scale than they would otherwise, simply due to the level of lead in their blood and bones. Babies are exposed prior to birth if their mother's are deficient of calcium. Lead stored in the mother's bones is transferred to the baby, because the body doesn't know that lead isn't calcium.

So it's out of compassion that some of us feel sorry for people who go out of their way to unintentionally heighten their exposure to lead. People like private civil aviation pilots, people at indoor firing ranges, and people that have owned classic cars that run on TEL gasoline, many of who are more likely to vote for republicans than democrats. Coincidence?

[iemanja]

32. It's not compassionate. It's hateful.

It shows contempt for DUers who are mentally ill by further stigmatizing mental illness. Because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they have a diagnosis under the DSM, while many of us who do are insulted by such posts. Posters have had that pointed out repeatedly yet continue the posts anyway, which tells me that mean to hurt DUers who have mental illnesses.

[ffr]

35. Please do me the justice in reading my post before rebutting it with a red-herring

distraction. Your reply does not even address anything I wrote!

[iemanja]

37. It most certainly does

I chose to ignore the point about lead poisoning and focus instead on the fact you made an excuse to continue calling those you disagree with as mentally ill, that it was somehow justified. Your text about lead poisoning is simply part of that excuse.

I did indeed respond to the one part of your post that was actually relevant to the OP's discussion.

[ffr]

41. I still don't think you read my post. Or perhaps you just like to vent today.

I chose to ignore the point about lead poisoning and focus instead on the fact you made an excuse to continue calling those you disagree with as mentally ill, that it was somehow justified. Your text about lead poisoning is simply part of that excuse.

It's not an EXCUSE. Lead poisoning is a FACT. LOOK IT UP!! I'm just as affected by it as anyone else AND I acknowledge that FACT! To say that studies show that average IQs are 4 points lower than they would otherwise be, is A FACT.

So to IGNORE the reality of what is established FACT, is to ignore the evidence that lead poisoning can have very real effects on the HUMAN BRAIN, INCLUDING MENTAL ILLNESS.

Exposure to lead at a young age may lead to mental illness, according to a new study. The study, which followed 579 people in New Zealand for more than 30 years starting from age 3, found an association between exposure to lead and mental illness including phobia, depression, mania, and schizophrenia. - Harvard EDU

The FACT that republicans intentionally heighten their exposure to lead through their activities is probably also then, perhaps a deduction of why they reason things out the way they do. It is out of compassion that we, as in YOU and ME, should recognize that some of those with potentially heightened lead blood levels may actually be mentally ill.

[iemanja]

31. Thank you for this

I've grown weary of this. It doesn't matter how many times people have the issue pointed out, they continue to make derogatory posts about the mentally ill, which tells me the insult is deliberate.

[sl8]

36. Thank you. nt

[Sympthsical]

38. Pathologizing politics has a long pedigree

And I have never been a fan of it.

It has an unintended consequence as well. If the opposing politics are just mental illness, then people aren't really responsible are they? At least not to the degree you would generally hold people to for their actions and beliefs.

And it isn't like that tactic couldn't be used in our direction. There is plenty the Right thinks is crazy about us.

Mental illness is mental illness.

I still find it so bizarre people are, like, angry that Pelosi's attacker is clearly a mental health mess. Were they hoping for someone saner? Why/why not?

This is a problem with, "Politics are a game, and we need to put points on the board," thinking.

[yardwork]

40. Agreed!

[calimary]

42. I remember that.

I remember feeling bummed out. What a “scarlet letter” he got stuck with. He might have been a force of care and greater understanding on issues like this - that affect so many people.

[sarisataka]

43. Looks like the answer is no

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217304807

[emulatorloo]

46. I think you missed the point of that thread. It is about right wing media n/t

[sarisataka]

47. The end is the same

It only poses that RW media is the cause of the mental illness.

[emulatorloo]

48. It is a lot more nuanced than OP's examples.

I do believe that violent rightwing rhetoric is sometimes aimed at vulnerable mentally ill people.

OP’s thesis is that DU’ers are attacking mental healthcare and people who disagree with them politically as mentally ill.

The thread you cited doesn't really do either.

[mountain grammy]

45. I'm sorry, I will call trump a madman till the day I die

because he is.

[BannonsLiver]

57. +1

Anything goes with Trump. Word policing is why we lose.

[LudwigPastorius]

49. I am convinced that Trump meets the DSM-V standards for more than one mental illness.

So, I have to ask myself, what does that make those how slavishly follow his every utterance?

[Just A Box Of Rain]

51. I have a dear friend and neighbor who is a professor emeritus at UCLA's School of Psychiatry

and he's told me--on more than one occasion--that in his professional opinion that TFG is a "sociopath with narcissistic tendencies."

[lefthandedskyhook]

50. makes sense onder narrow circumstances

.

[BannonsLiver]

58. No.