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Samrob

(4,298 posts)
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 10:39 AM Nov 2022

I still can't wrap my head around why the thug that hammered Mr. Pelosi wasn't shot on the spot.

He was wielding a hammer that cops told him to drop and he didn't. There have been too many black men shot dead for holding up a wallet, going for their wallet or running away from armed police. Yet this man who actually bludgeoned a man in front of armed police is still walking around and breathing? No cop feared their own life from a crazed hammer wielding thug but they fear wallets, whistles, iPhones and such? And every damn crime pol ad put out by the Republicans shows some black somewhere smashing a window, breaking into a car to make you think that only crimes committed by blacks is rampant and there is no criminal activity anywhere in America except in big city neighborhoods. And most of the people watching those overused videos don't even live near a big city let alone in one.

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I still can't wrap my head around why the thug that hammered Mr. Pelosi wasn't shot on the spot. (Original Post) Samrob Nov 2022 OP
Maybe they didn't want to risk harming Mr. Pelosi. milestogo Nov 2022 #1
Exactly. The two were engaged, struggling, fighting, moving. Not a firerange target. hlthe2b Nov 2022 #2
It was probably too dangerous to take a shot at him while he was so close Ocelot II Nov 2022 #3
That didn't stop them from shooting Philandro Castile... TheRealNorth Nov 2022 #17
There will always be bad examples of exceptions. Ocelot II Nov 2022 #18
The shooting of Philandro Castile .. Straw Man Nov 2022 #36
apparently all cops are the same person treestar Nov 2022 #41
American exceptionalism SallyHemmings Nov 2022 #4
Apparently snowybirdie Nov 2022 #5
My thinking too n/t malaise Nov 2022 #10
first thing that came to my mind ShepKat Nov 2022 #6
Yup. grumpyduck Nov 2022 #7
+1 IzzaNuDay Nov 2022 #23
I can tell you: there were no sharp shooters. maxsolomon Nov 2022 #44
You were there at the moment and saw the sight lines for the shot so you can second guess the police Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #8
Making an observation based on historical facts. Samrob Nov 2022 #25
You did not OBSERVE. Yes, black men get shot much more than they should, but you can't generalize to Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #27
And if the police shot him sarisataka Nov 2022 #9
Republicans say it is because under democrats police are weak on crime. Emile Nov 2022 #11
Because life isn't Hollywood Sympthsical Nov 2022 #12
Maybe they don't know about your quota system? Kaleva Nov 2022 #13
+1 Jack the Greater Nov 2022 #16
I am glad he wasn't. Due process is better than a corpse in all cases. nt Gore1FL Nov 2022 #14
Should the cops start shooting more white suspects? Jack the Greater Nov 2022 #15
I wonder the same thing when the police fail to kill a white suspect in the process Ocelot II Nov 2022 #19
My guess is they had no reason to draw their guns when they knocked on the door. patphil Nov 2022 #20
But they enter black homes with guns drawn, no matter what the circumstance. nt Samrob Nov 2022 #26
Not for "wellness checks", not even black homes Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #28
Any time a cop DOESN'T shoot someone who probably deserved it MurrayDelph Nov 2022 #21
Cops are notoriously bad shots. DePape was too close to Pelosi. They could have ended up tblue37 Nov 2022 #22
I'm more confused as to how the thug got in Polybius Nov 2022 #24
No. Broke glass with hammer, seen on Cap Police video (unwatched at that moment, one of 1800 cameras Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #30
The film on H2O Man Nov 2022 #31
He is white. H2O Man Nov 2022 #29
Simple isn't it? Simple explanations are so satisfying but practically useless Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #32
If one compares it H2O Man Nov 2022 #34
Well then, you haven't read the thread. I gave two reasons. Others gave reasons Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #35
I've read the H2O Man Nov 2022 #37
If you like, I'd like to know what the "error" is. I do make them from time to time Bernardo de La Paz Nov 2022 #38
there is no proof that the perpetrator treestar Nov 2022 #40
Others show H2O Man Nov 2022 #43
Let's try precedent. or history. nt Samrob Nov 2022 #45
A black assailant wielding a handkerchief would have been shot 200 times. usonian Nov 2022 #33
oh please, he did not have a gun treestar Nov 2022 #39
He suffers from a pronounced melanin deficiency. 11 Bravo Nov 2022 #42

Ocelot II

(115,836 posts)
3. It was probably too dangerous to take a shot at him while he was so close
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 10:42 AM
Nov 2022

to his victim - sounds like the two of them were very close together and were struggling violently over the hammer. I take your point but what if they'd shot at the guy and missed, and hit Pelosi instead?

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
17. That didn't stop them from shooting Philandro Castile...
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 11:33 AM
Nov 2022

With a woman in the side seat and child in the back seat.

Ocelot II

(115,836 posts)
18. There will always be bad examples of exceptions.
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 11:44 AM
Nov 2022

I don't think the police acted improperly in the Pelosi situation by not shooting the perp, but I don't think the reason they decided not to shoot him was because he was white. I also don't think that even if the perp had been Black they would have shot him; the risk of accidentally shooting his victim was too great. They might have beaten him up afterwards, though.

Straw Man

(6,625 posts)
36. The shooting of Philandro Castile ..
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 03:50 PM
Nov 2022

... was egregious and unjustified, but the situations are in no way comparable. Castile was seated and stationary. The shooting took place at point-blank range. Castile's body was shielding his front-seat passenger, and the child in the rear seat was not in the line of fire.

Pelosi and his assailant were locked together in a struggle and most likely were not stationary. A successful shot by police in such a situation rarely happens outside the movies.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
41. apparently all cops are the same person
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 04:51 PM
Nov 2022

no matter how different the day, situation, location, they all shoot black people every time, and never shoot white people

Honestly these comments! They are as illogical as anything a right winger could come up with, just on the opposite side.

snowybirdie

(5,234 posts)
5. Apparently
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 10:43 AM
Nov 2022

The two men were physically very close to each other. Police must make split second decisions and didn't want to shoot the victim.

ShepKat

(383 posts)
6. first thing that came to my mind
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 10:46 AM
Nov 2022

is the melanin color swatches to determine whether he should live or not.

maxsolomon

(33,400 posts)
44. I can tell you: there were no sharp shooters.
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 06:27 PM
Nov 2022

The cops had just ordered them both to drop the hammer. They observed the assault, and simply ran over and grabbed Depape.

Samrob

(4,298 posts)
25. Making an observation based on historical facts.
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 01:36 PM
Nov 2022

Black men have been shot sitting in a car with their children and/or spouses. Bystanders or victims haven't been a problem before. And white mass shooters have been led away from the scene of their shootings without a scratch, even when apprehended with as weapon.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
27. You did not OBSERVE. Yes, black men get shot much more than they should, but you can't generalize to
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 01:41 PM
Nov 2022

... but you can't generalize to every situation.

You weren't there.

It was a "wellness check" (dispatcher records). They had no reason to have their weapons drawn, by standard police protocols for wellness checks. It was a "high priority" check, but the dispatcher did not indicate any violence because there had been none by that point.

sarisataka

(18,770 posts)
9. And if the police shot him
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 10:48 AM
Nov 2022

There would be complaints that they carelessly put Mr Pelosi at risk.

I venture there would even be speculation that they hoped to "accidentally" miss the suspect and hit Mr Pelosi.

Jack the Greater

(601 posts)
15. Should the cops start shooting more white suspects?
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 11:22 AM
Nov 2022

... or stop shooting so many black suspects? How should this situation be adjusted so that equity is achieved?

Ocelot II

(115,836 posts)
19. I wonder the same thing when the police fail to kill a white suspect in the process
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 11:50 AM
Nov 2022

of arresting him. Do they want the police to shoot the white guy, too? Or maybe we should focus on getting the cops to just stop shooting black suspects and not get mad when the white ones are not killed. I think it's good that they didn't kill Depape and I don't believe for a second that they decided not to shoot him just because he was white. I don't think that under the circumstances they'd have shot him if he had been black, either.

patphil

(6,207 posts)
20. My guess is they had no reason to draw their guns when they knocked on the door.
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 12:01 PM
Nov 2022

So when the door opened, they were holstered. Then things happened so fast they only had time to rush the assailant and restrain him.
I don't think you can read anything suspicious into it.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
28. Not for "wellness checks", not even black homes
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 01:43 PM
Nov 2022

I'm not saying it never happens, but wellness checks (dispatcher's characterization, per Pelosi phone call and dispatcher records) do not require guns drawn by police protocols.

tblue37

(65,487 posts)
22. Cops are notoriously bad shots. DePape was too close to Pelosi. They could have ended up
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 12:15 PM
Nov 2022

killing Pelosi instead.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
30. No. Broke glass with hammer, seen on Cap Police video (unwatched at that moment, one of 1800 cameras
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 01:46 PM
Nov 2022

It was one of 1800 cameras the Capitol Police have to monitor constantly.

Also attested to by a witness on the streets at the time.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
32. Simple isn't it? Simple explanations are so satisfying but practically useless
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 01:51 PM
Nov 2022

Yes, I know the statistics are biased against blacks and people of colour and visible minorities.

However,

... simplistic blanket generalizations that are based on pure speculation are useless or worse.

The reason progressives are against prejudice and bigotry is because they make people take positions based on generalizations before there are any particulars that might actually indicate what happened. It cuts both ways. Generalizations that are independent of the facts of a specific situation or a specific individual are not wise.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
34. If one compares it
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 03:42 PM
Nov 2022

to all of the other historical hammer attacks on the spouse of the Speaker of the House, it remains valid. Note there is no "better" reason mentioned on this thread.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
35. Well then, you haven't read the thread. I gave two reasons. Others gave reasons
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 03:43 PM
Nov 2022

You are pitting your vague generalization against the facts.

H2O Man

(73,605 posts)
37. I've read the
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 04:13 PM
Nov 2022

entire thread. Even one of your posts where you made an error. Another error is to think you can tell what anoher person is thinking, as you have done here. (In couples' therapy, the person who first says, "You think that ...." is always more than 50% responsible for their troubles.)

The OP expressed a problem in understanding why the police, upon entering, did not shoot the thug. It was, as everyone with even the slightest degree of understand knows, because they immediately saw him assaulting Mr. Pelosi, and tackled and restrained him. That was, of course, the proper thing to do. It is so obvious that I did not think it required a rational explanation. You might have, but I didn't. Thus, we view things differently, don't we?

I did put the 100% correct response to what I considered a valid question, by a person who may not have seem the overhead film from the local news. One doesn't need to anticpate a police force from across the nation, as Frank Zappa made clear on 2,000 motels. It's local police responding to a 911 call.

I prefer when criminals are caught, their background -- including potential associates -- investigated, a trial, conviction, and incarceration. Others might ponder why there wasn't a shooting. I don't.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
38. If you like, I'd like to know what the "error" is. I do make them from time to time
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 04:44 PM
Nov 2022

I prefer to be corrected when I make errors or hear the other side if they thought I made an error. Perhaps I'm wrong about details of wellness checks or got the number of cameras wrong, but it is probably some other detail you have caught that I'm not thinking of.

You are so much more cogent when you avoid making three word posts. I always look forward to your byline because you are a thoughtful, careful, accomplished writer. That's why I was astounded by your three word post, which gave no room for reason.

As to guessing what another person is thinking, that is one of the tests of consciousness that researchers apply to studies of dogs and dolphins. Everybody does it.

However, I hope it is clear and I will state that I did not tell you what you were thinking in my reply to you. As to guessing what officers and perps might be thinking, speculation like that is performing thought experiments and exploring scenarios to figure out what aspects of an event may have been crucial.

We are agreed 100% that

The OP expressed a problem in understanding why the police, upon entering, did not shoot the thug. It was, as everyone with even the slightest degree of understand knows, because they immediately saw him assaulting Mr. Pelosi, and tackled and restrained him. That was, of course, the proper thing to do.


It is so obvious that I did not think it required a rational explanation. You might have, but I didn't. Thus, we view things differently, don't we?


I do not understand how you think we see things differently on the timing of the police action. As to being explicit, well yes as a programmer I do like explicitness for clarity and lack of ambiguity. In this case, the OP's question indicated the need that an explicit explanation would help them. Several posters did that.

I'm guessing (now that I've read this post of yours) that given you felt no explicit explanation was needed, perhaps you were thinking your reply was sardonic. If so, I missed that. My error if that was the case. I could easily be wrong about that too. But three words typed do not carry the body language, inflections of voice and tonality that saying them in person would convey. Limited bandwidth in 13 letters. Note that in couple's therapy, the statement you quote can be couched with conditionals and posed in a way that encourages feedback which makes things better, as in "I thought you were thinking ..." or "It sure seemed to me your actions on Thursday indicated you were thinking such and such."

So, thank you for clarifying your meaning of your three words. I wrote carefully to bring up the topic of prejudice but not to tar you with it, since your three word post was so surprising to me.

Again:

I prefer when criminals are caught, their background -- including potential associates -- investigated, a trial, conviction, and incarceration. Others might ponder why there wasn't a shooting. I don't.


... 100% agreement. I have written similar sentiments in other contexts, such as hoping tRump gets indicted, convicted, and jailed before he dies a natural death (unless he gets the death penalty for treason).

treestar

(82,383 posts)
40. there is no proof that the perpetrator
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 04:48 PM
Nov 2022

would have been shot if he were black.

Only if you think every black man is always shot. That cannot be or the jails would not have so many black men.

Showing the left is just as narrow minded as the right is not helpful.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
39. oh please, he did not have a gun
Wed Nov 2, 2022, 04:46 PM
Nov 2022

why make this about the cop? So every time a cop is involved, we have to declare the cops were incompetent? Or make it about race when there is no issue? There is no reason for these assumptions other than a mere reaction to every case regardless of circumstances.

You should join the force yourself if you think you would do so much better.

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