One crucial thing Maher brought up last night about Dems and Republicans

[gulliver]

In New Rules, Maher said of the Dem and Republican predicament, "It's like trying to win an argument in a marriage. Even when you're right, it still gets you nothing." I don't think it's the first time that analogy has been made, of course, so it really doesn't matter that it was Maher saying it. In fact, he's not married and never has been, so I'm not sure he's an authority on marriage arguments. But I have been both married and divorced, and his point does seem to me to have the ring of truth.

"What can we do to make (or keep) this right?" That's a question I've come to think bears keeping in mind when there is friction in a relationship, be it with a friend, spouse, parent, child, or co-citizen. I speak from painful experience. I can think of a lot of cases where I wish I had asked (or had been asked), "What can we do to make this right?"

We fight too much. We resent too much. We trust and respect too little. I sure hope we can get a handle on this.

[cachukis]

1. Yes, but you need a reply; a basis point for discussion.

They never respond to the request.

[gulliver]

3. Thought and political leaders have an uphill battle

Right now, they're often punished for dialog and rewarded for chaos, dishonesty, extremism, and even sheer lunacy.

Really, I think it's the grass roots who may have to "get their hearts right" when it comes to "the others." It's over my head though. I'm a little optimistic in that all of this ubiquitous media is helping spread wisdom, it seems to me, at a rate that is at least competitive with all of the disturbing foolishness to which we have been vulnerable. Also, the pandemic and all these other miseries are teaching most of us hard lessons from personal experience.

[cachukis]

15. The information is there, but the mindset is difficult to conquer.

Psychologists have determined that, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, people will revert to defending their wrongness as it the basis for their power.
The Finns, as a group suffered the ignominy of being classified as "rubes," when they would go to the big cities looking higher wages and opportunities.
The Finns, looked in the mirror to see what the Russians and Europeans were talking about. Took great courage, but the leadership didn't deflect with equivocation and pointing fingers. They went to work.
They realized that their education system was not adequately attending to reality.
Finland is mostly rural and agrarian.
Farm kids got basic schooling, but were needed on the farm. Mechanization replaced a lot of farm workers who headed to the big cities unprepared for modernity. The Finns, know that being down 4 touchdowns in the fourth quarter, is not going to turn out well.
They decided they would not abandon their older students, but help them select their paths.
The tested them for proficiency and those that showed aptitude in academics were encouraged to continue in the school system. Those more attuned to mechanics were encouraged to get trained on those fields.
The Finns decided that if you didn't get the kids when they were young, you weren't going to change their comfort zone easily.
They put all their energies into early childhood development. They took rural kids and devoted modern technological schooling to their communities.
They introduced new schooling ideas that focused on learning and interconnecting that knowledge across multiple fields.
These plans went into acton in the early nineties and now Finland has one of the most successful education system in the world.
I'm giving short shrift, to this story, but if we in America don't look in the mirror at how badly we allow nonsense to influence our education system, we are bound to be dumber down even further.
The top twenty percent of students have their own drive and support mechanisms in place.
The bottom twenty percent will always need help.
Those in the middle need a a reality check that doesn't happen.
People are smart and can learn. They understand when you explain the truth. They aren't getting the truth early enough to make good decisions that improve the society as a whole.
Trying to fix antivaxxers is a fools errand. They would rather die.
Expecting people who have a hard time with their own language to help people learn English is not going to happen.
The reason religion works so well is they get you when you escape the cradle.
The religious right argue against indoctrination.
How do you explain irony to them?

[gulliver]

17. These are all good points. Thanks for posting

There's an old saying that is basically, "It's hard to convince someone of something when their income depends on not being convinced."

[kairos12]

2. In marriage, often, do you want to be right,

or do you want to stay married.

Let things go for Zeus' sake.

I have learned this. Took a while, though.

[walkingman]

5. Agreed - Which is better, being right or PEACE? A lesson we all learn over time.

[tanyev]

4. That analogy only works if both participants sincerely want a successful outcome.

If one participant is abusive and is willing to commit violence to always get their way, the other participant is a victim, not a partner.

[PatSeg]

7. Yes, it really does depend on the individuals involved

I remember taking the high road and trying to see his point of view. He then switched sides. He just wanted to fight and it didn't matter what it was about. If I tried to be calm and quiet, he began to "read my mind" and argued about what he perceived I was thinking. The only thing that ever worked was to get out the door if I could and let him cool down alone. Obviously that relationship did not last.

I do, however, see the point about both sides striving to be "right" with no consideration to the long term consequences of the endless bickering.

[scarletlib]

11. Thank you. It only works if both sides are willing.

The people (MAGAS) in the Republican Party want the unconditional surrender of all the rest of us. You can’t negotiate or reason with that as a starting point.

[gulliver]

12. I agree completely

There's a time when the line has to be drawn. When you're being mugged by someone, it's ridiculous to try to reason with them. By then, it's too late.

Now, if you have friends around you, you're a lot less likely to be mugged. It's better to have as many friends as possible, or, if they're not friends, willing allies who, while they may dislike you, dislike mugging even more.

[Paladin]

6. Since when do Republicans give an unlubricated FUCK about making things right?

Democrats have been doing their goody-two-shoes act for decades, trying to make things right---and the result has been a massive empowerment shift in favor of the fascists.

Gotta love Maher's marriage commentary, however. Next up: trump's lecture on Christian charity...

[Meowmee]

8. Exactly

Lol

[PatSeg]

9. That is an excellent point

Republicans aren't concerned with being right, they just want to win at any cost. It is about power.

[gulliver]

16. I largely agree

I'm not trying to argue for "goody-two-shoes," doe-eyed, "let's just try to understand Republicans" approach at all. I'm just saying we can do better in our approach to getting our way. At least I hope we can.

If you can get someone on your adversary's side to switch to your side, you get a double bump. We don't know yet, but if Republican women, for example, don't vote with us on reproductive freedom in the coming election, we should try to find out why.

[Meowmee]

10. Don't watch him, despise him

Anyone who thinks a “ marriage” analogy is in any way similar to what is going on here is out of touch with reality. This is a war, based now mostly on insanity and against fascism.

[BannonsLiver]

13. Did the Websters folks change the meaning of crucial? Did I miss that?

[Sky Jewels]

14. That doesn't work when one is violent and abusive and has no interest in changing.