The root cause of this latest massacre was not hatred.

[BWdem4life]

I would just like to point this out, since that is all the media wants to focus on, and since I hate the media.

The root cause was easy access to firearms and ammunition in this country.

Without that, Repukes could spew all the hatred they wanted, and it would cause increased violence against LGBTQ people, which would be bad enough.

But, there would not have been a mass shooting incident as a result.

Nice job changing the subject once again.

[jcgoldie]

1. +1

Almost nobody gets shot in Japan and it isn't because there is no bigotry.

[Sympthsical]

2. I'm waiting to hear how A to B happened

How does that bomb threat incident happen, and then a year later he's running around with a gun?

It seems very weird that such a serious incident happened, and then . . . nothing came of it?

It's early days, but that explanation must be something.

[tblue37]

3. Connections. His grandpa is a MAGA politician.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

4. I actually think the 'root cause' is the hatred ... sorry to disagree (nt)

[Caliman73]

28. Agreed.

Not taking anything away from the easy access to firearms. The firearms allowed this person to convert his hatred in to action with lethal results. Firearms, and the ease of access to them is a significant problem which creates that conditions to inflict a lot of damage and death, and we need to address that.

However, without the hatred and impulse to hurt people in the LGBTQ community, it wouldn't matter if he owned firearms.

We need to address BOTH.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

34. 100 percent (nt)

[certainot]

46. AND the main reason this hate has increased - 1500 radio stations excusing and pushing it to

help elect republicans. there will always be hate.

and RW radio is also the main reason we can't get gun control and assault weapons bans.

the absurdity of ignoring the talk radio is exemplified by the 87 + universities that broadcast sports on hundreds of hate radio station. the stations that push bathroom bills, want to ban books, make excuses for bigotry.

the university of syracuse, 150 miles from the racist buffalo mass murder, is a great eg. it broadcasts sports on 9 RW stations that have been selling versions of 'replacement theory' for at least 20 years, telling listeners Dem-enabled immigrants are taking their jobs and voting illegally, to help republicans push voter suppression legislation. and then after every masss shooting they comfort the NRA and make sure no republican and even some dems cannot possibly vote for gun control.

and in colorado, air force academy in Co Springs supports 2 RW stations. and CSU 2. AFA, like most unis, even has an LGBTQ org.

yeah it's the hate and it's the guns, but there's another reason it's getting worse instead of better, democracy's weakened, and trump got anywhere near the WH. and that is easily fixable if americans wake up on RW radio.

[Caliman73]

48. Definitely.

I think that the hatred exists from family and social teaching, but you are absolutely correct that the thousands of stations and entire media ecosphere on the right amplifies and justifies the hatred. It encourages it and plants ideas for action.

That mixed with the general glorification of violence and the easy access to firearms will often lead to people acting out.

[republianmushroom]

39. agree

[ProfessorGAC]

56. Agreed!

Hate is a root cause. Gun access is a facilitating factor.
Both contributors, but only one is a root cause.
Lots of people have guns but don't shoot up nightclubs.

[GoCubsGo]

57. Yup. Why go shoot up a bunch of people if you don't hate them?

Easy access to firearms GREATLY exacerbates things, no doubt. But, everyone pretty much has access to guns. Yet, only a small handful of people are going out and using them to massacre the targets of a years-long hate campaign.

[TomSlick]

63. Agreed.

The hatred is the essential cause. Without the hatred, there would have been no mass murder.

The bizarre access that Americans have to weapons of war was a contributing factor - it made the mass murder easier but it was not an essential cause. If the shooter did not have access to a combat-style assault rifle, he would have had access to other weapons, perhaps not as efficient as a weapon of mass murder, but weapons nevertheless. (A well-thrown Molotov cocktail would have done a lot of damage, as would an automatic or pump shotgun.)

Don't get me wrong. There is no justification for the ability of Americans to possess weapons of war. It appears that as a matter of public policy, America has the best armed mass murders in the world. Nevertheless, hate is the cause for violence.

[Walleye]

5. I get the feeling the sheriffs office was bending over backwards to protect him

Oh and they can’t bring themselves to address the real problem. Officially they didn’t say it was an AR 15 style gun, they said it was a “long rifle”. They will sanitize the shooting part of it as much as possible. And I’m talking about the sheriffs department.

[AndyS]

6. It IS the guns. It's not mental illness, all countries have mental illness.

It's not the video games, all countries play video games.

It's not the divorce rate, all countries have divorce.

It's not the movies, all countries enjoy watching American movies.

It's the guns. Guns everywhere. Guns in homes, guns in cars, guns in bars, guns on hips, guns in schools, guns concealed, guns open. It's the guns.

[onecaliberal]

7. The root cause is hate, but the fact that guns are available allow them to act in evil fashion

Again those they hate.

[Jirel]

8. Nope, it's hatred.

Your issue is guns, so you are hijacking the narrative to reflect that.

Don’t dishonor what is happening in the LGBTQ+ community by doing that. It’s like saying all the murders of African Americans by cop’s isn’t about racism at the root, but guns. Nope, it’s the racism.

[AndyS]

21. The hatred has always been there. Always, period.

What has changed in the last 20 years is the number of guns available. More guns than people.

A hater with a knife can hurt a few. A hater with a blunt instrument can hurt a few. A hater with a gun can kill and maim dozens, even hundreds.

It is the guns. The average gun sale takes 108 seconds. A little more than a head of lettuce.

I think perhaps your issue may be guns, just from the wrong side of the narrative.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

35. Thought exercise for you here

Let's say I got a diagnosis of Stage 4 terminal pancreatic cancer.

And I've never owned a gun.

I decide you know what, I don't want to suffer and die of pancreatic cancer, so I'll go buy a readily-available gun, and off myself instead.

Now ... what was the 'root cause' of my suicide?

By your argument, it was the fact that I could go easily buy a gun.

By the argument of the people here (including myself) who are disagreeing with you in this thread, the root cause of my suicide was my cancer diagnosis.

In case it's not obvious ... 'cancer diagnosis' and 'hatred' are exactly analogous here, as are 'suicide' and 'mass shooting'.

[Tetrachloride]

9. Guns access, right wing paranoia, christian paranoia

, media coverage, declining science education . they all play their role.

[RockRaven]

10. I'd say it was conservative/Republican politics.

Their positions.
Their propaganda.
Their gun fetishization.
Their activist judges.
Their hate-mongering.
Their media cesspool.

[Marthe48]

11. They get the guns

and use them against people they hate. There are too many guns, and too much hate.

I don't disagree with you, but media is fanning flames they should be extinguishing. Blood baths like this atrocious attack is their bread and butter, from the top down and the bottom up.


I can't describe America as a coast to coast death cage match, because as far as I know the people in a death cage match all know what to expect. Mass shootings killing people who were enjoying their social life is an ambush, and is the most disgusting of human actions.

[Tree-Hugger]

12. Nope. It's hate.

Easy access needs to be fucked, but what we will not do is ignore the hate that is it the root of this massacre.

[live love laugh]

13. GUN Crime not just crime is America's biggest problem.

[sop]

14. Yeah, it's the guns.

This shit happens because murderous hate-filled assholes have easy access to guns. Many other factors contribute to these tragedies, but it's the guns that are killing people by the thousands. Hate speech injures, but it doesn't fire lethal bullets. It's the fucking guns.

[sarisataka]

15. The ROOT cause is hate

Hate without the gun still leads to violence

A gun without hate never goes to the club.

Assigning the cause to the gun is essentially accepting violence to LGBTQ community, as long as it is not gun violence.

[AndyS]

22. So try taking out hate without a gun. Can't see the connection? nt

[sarisataka]

23. Hate is the root cause

The gun was the means.

There are other means. Does the UpStairs Lounge ring any bells?

[AndyS]

29. Boy, that's a reach. Anything but guns, it's always anything but guns

for some folks . . .

[sarisataka]

31. So arson would have been acceptable

Or stabbing? Or driving a truck through the front door? Just as long as the murder isn't done with a gun.

I have noticed among some folks there is a tolerance of non-gun violence...

[AndyS]

33. Really? That's the best ya' got?

A hundred thousand people shot in the good ole' U S of A and you dig up a handful of other incidents and then accuse 'some people' of having a tolerance for violence?

Admit it, that post was a shiny squirrel! Look over there! It's not the guns!

[sarisataka]

36. Where have I ever indicated

I "tolerate" gun violence?

I stand by my statement "A gun without hate never goes to the club".

And just to make sure no words that are not mine find there way into my mouth- no a person arrested for violent crimes or gathering bomb making materials should have access to guns.

[AndyS]

43. And just to be clear I didn't say you tolerate gun violence.

It was someone else who first brought up tolerance of violence.

What I said is that 'some folks' seem to find lots of things to distract from the abundance of guns in our society and their use in violent acting out. Be it hate crimes or domestic violence the availability of guns makes the escalation from thought to action easy. A gun without hate never goes to a club but when hate goes to a club without a gun the bouncer usually handles it.

It really is the guns.

Road rage without guns is a finger in the air.

Pick any number of other situations add a gun and see if it gets worse.

[markpkessinger]

54. Violence against LGBTQI+ persons has a very long history in this country . . .

. . . whether or not it is carried out with guns!

[irisblue]

16. These murders were gay bashing done with a gun.

The history of cisgender men beating and killing gay men, lesbians, transgender people in this country is extensive. Popular culture 2examples, Killing of Georgie, song, by Rod Stewart, 1976, Torch Song Trilogy,play in 1978, 1988 Movie.

The decades of hate that RW has feasted on + Gay bashing + easy access to military weaponry =toxic stew

[markpkessinger]

49. Amen!

And thank you!

[Kaleva]

17. It used to be easier to buy guns

No background checks

No federal minimum age to buy a gun

No requirement to register a handgun

One could buy handguns, rifles and shotguns fron Sears and it would be delivered to your home by the US Postal Service, no questions asked.

[AndyS]

25. It takes 108 seconds to buy a gun legally.

How much easier does it need to be?

When Brady tried to pass background checks back in the '80s (?) it came with a waiting period for local police to do a REAL background check but the NRA go involved and it had to be INSTANT! Couldn't possibly INCONVIENCE a gunner from getting hands on a gun, right?

So the fictitious background check was set up. Fictitious? Yeah, 40% of reporting entities to the NICS don't report. Some years the FBI can even issue a crime report because not enough reporting entities comply. It's all voluntary. It's not a background check, it's a PARTIAL criminal check.

Long for the good ole days Kaleva . . .

[Kaleva]

51. Nothing you say contradicts what I said

Before, one could mail order all the guns one could afford from Sears. Didn't even have to leave the house or provide proof of one's ID.

I see nothing in your post that shows it's easier to buy guns today then it used to be

[RobinA]

18. I Think It's

a cultural problem. Guns have been around, hate has been around. People didn't used to pull out a gun and start firing at people they hate in the numbers they do now. Somehow this has become seen as some kind of option by the hopeless. And I say they are hopeless, because they NEVER get away with it, and often kill themselves.

I don't pretend to know WHAT the problem is, but my vote is cultural problem. Aided and abetted by availability of guns, video games, constant hate speech from people who should know better, constant violence as entertainment... You name it.

[Kaleva]

19. People didn't pay much attention when the victims were blacks, Native Americans

and other minorities.

[AndyS]

32. Soooo you're saying that LGBTQ are somehow taking attention away

from other hate crimes? Is this a case of one minority being more important than another in your opinion?

Can you please clarify what that remark means?

[llashram]

45. All minorities are at risk

gay people, AA, First Peoples of American land, women who are strong and stand up and talk the truth about Dobbs, all are hated. And hate drives massacres like this. Tulsa? Same difference. Numbers don't matter and the driving motive is hate in the hands of the hater and a semi-auto WMD.

Please let us not be distracted from this latest massacre...

[Kaleva]

52. You never heard of lynchings or the mass murder of Native Americans

People talk about hate in this country like it's a recent development when history clearly shows it isn't

[Initech]

20. Hatred wasn't the root cause, but it was definitely a factor.

Look at Fox News and the sheer hatred that they have been spewing for the last year and a half against the LGBT people and especially the T part of that community. We can't deny that wasn't a factor, especially given that the shooter's grandfather is a MAGA politician of the conspiracy theorist variety.

[CTyankee]

24. I did the same. We are weaponizing (literally!) hatred against gay people!

As the grandmother of a transgendering grandchild, I am horrified and scared. Happily, my grandchild lives in North Hollywood and her mom works at Warner Brothers Studio. They live in an accepting and loving community. I have to believe that this horror would not happen to them.

[DavidDvorkin]

26. Hate was the motive, guns the means

Both problems must be addressed. Fighting hatred is difficult and long term. Controlling and reducing guns and access to them can be done right away.

We have to focus on both. Obviously, that's easier said than done.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. I disagree, and I'd rather live in a place with guns and without hate than the other way around.

[SYFROYH]

30. Not a root cause. It was necessary but not sufficient cause for mass shooting

IMHO

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

37. Both/and - hatred AND easy access. Not sure why the need to get so

either-or about it? Actually my first thought was - terrorism. Like a hate crime, but with the additional element of targeting groups for purposes of terrorizing them into submission. silence, subjugation....

[malaise]

38. It is both n/t

[NoMoreRepugs]

40. Doesn't hold water - almost EVERYONE in America has access to guns and ammo. It's HATRED.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

41. Switzerland is armed to the teeth. How many gay bars in Switzerland get shot up?

Firearms regulation in Switzerland



1925 Knabenschiessen certificate of participation. Target shooting is one of the most popular sports in Switzerland.



The federal shooting range of Versoix, Switzerland; people come to such ranges to complete mandatory training (Obligatorischeschiessen) with service arms, or to shoot for sport and competition.

Firearms regulation in Switzerland allows the acquisition of semi-automatic, and – with a may-issue permit – fully automatic firearms, by Swiss citizens and foreigners with or without permanent residence. The laws pertaining to the acquisition of firearms in Switzerland are amongst the most liberal in the world. Swiss gun laws are primarily about the acquisition of arms, and not ownership. As such a license is not required to own a gun by itself, but a shall-issue permit is required to purchase most types of firearms. Bolt-action rifles do not require an acquisition permit, and can be acquired with just a background check. A reason is not required to be issued an acquisition permit for semi-automatics unless the reason is other than sport-shooting, hunting, or collecting. Permits for concealed carrying in public are issued sparingly. The acquisition of fully automatic weapons, suppressors and target lasers requires special permits issued by the cantonal firearms office. Police use of hollow point ammunition is limited to special situations.

The applicable federal legislations are SR 514.54 Federal Law on Weapons, Weapon Equipment and Ammunition (German: Waffengesetz, WG, French: Loi sur les armes, LArm, Italian: Legge sulle armi, LArm) of 20 June 1997 (current edition of 15 August 2019), and SR 514.541 Ordinance on Weapons, Armament Accessories and Ammunition (German: Waffenverordnung, WV, French: Ordonnance sur les armes, OArm, Italian: Ordinanza sulle armi, OArm) of 2 July 2008 (current edition of 15 August 2019). The Weapons Law recognises a qualified "right to acquire, possess and carry arms".

Swiss gun culture has emerged from a long tradition of shooting (tirs), which served as a formative element of national identity in the post-Napoleonic Restoration of the Confederacy, and the long-standing practice of a militia organization of the Swiss Army in which soldiers' service rifles are stored privately at their homes. In addition to this, many cantons (notably the alpine cantons of Grisons and Valais) have strong traditions of hunting, accounting for a large but unknown number of privately held hunting rifles, as only weapons acquired since 2008 are registered. However, in a 2019 referendum voters opted to conform with European Union regulations which restrict the acquisition of semi-automatic firearms with high-capacity magazines. A permit for semi-automatic firearms equipped with high-capacity magazines is issued to anyone fulfilling art. 8 of the Weapons Act under the promise they will show after five and ten years that they're members of a shooting club, or that they used the weapon at least once a year within that five and ten years period or to weapons collectors. The law pertaining to the acquisition of a high-capacity magazine by itself did not change.

{snip}

[IronLionZion]

47. The Swiss even shoot holes in their cheese

Swiss are probably not as hateful as MAGAts.

[Celerity]

61. There are too many white nationalist and/or christofash scum there for my taste

Switzerland has ‘systemic’ racism issues, UN experts say

OCT 3, 2022 11:49 PM PHT
REUTERS

https://www.rappler.com/world/europe/switzerland-has-systemic-racism-issues-united-nations-experts-say/

[AndyS]

50. The Swiss have 27 guns per 100 people, we have 140 guns per 100

people. I suspect that's because as lenient as the Swiss gun laws are not more than 27 of 100 Americans would go through the Swiss process.

[former9thward]

55. The Swiss process?

Firearms regulation in Switzerland allows the acquisition of semi-automatic, and – with a may-issue permit – fully automatic firearms, by Swiss citizens and foreigners with or without permanent residence. The laws pertaining to the acquisition of firearms in Switzerland are amongst the most liberal in the world. Swiss gun laws are primarily about the acquisition of arms, and not ownership. As such a license is not required to own a gun by itself, but a shall-issue permit is required to purchase most types of firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland

Swiss laws are far more liberal than the U.S. Almost no one can get a fully automatic weapon in the U.S. They can in Switzerland.

[AndyS]

58. But wiki says the Swiss require a permit to buy a gun.

Do you have to get a permit in the US to buy a gun?

What are the steps to getting that permit? Are permits sometimes denied? If a permit can't be denied why require one?

Does it take longer than 108 seconds to get a permit in Switzerland? That's the average time to pass a NICS check here.

Seems that to acquire a gun you need a contract spelling out details on the gun, the one selling or giving it and that contract must be filed with the local authorities. Do Americans have to do that?

Just asking for clarity . . .

[former9thward]

59. Can you buy an automatic weapons in the U.S.?

Apparently you can't since mass shooters never use them in their killings even though they would be much more efficient.

Just asking for clarity .

I don't know how many seconds it takes to get a permit in Switzerland. I imagine they have computers in that country like we do in the U.S.

[AndyS]

60. You seemed to have missed the body of my post, so

I've done a quick cut-n-paste:

But wiki says the Swiss require a permit to buy a gun.

Do you have to get a permit in the US to buy a gun?

What are the steps to getting that permit? Are permits sometimes denied? If a permit can't be denied why require one?

Does it take longer than 108 seconds to get a permit in Switzerland? That's the average time to pass a NICS check here.

Seems that to acquire a gun you need a contract spelling out details on the gun, the one selling or giving it and that contract must be filed with the local authorities. Do Americans have to do that?

Yes, you can buy a machine gun (full auto) legally in the US. Buy the tax stamp and go through a REAL background check.

[UTUSN]

42. K&R for, excellent framing.

[IronLionZion]

44. It's not mutually exclusive

hatred with easy access to firearms is causing way too many mass murders in this country. It's not terrorism since they're white, but Americans are still terrorized in any given time and place anywhere in America. Doing literally anything from dancing in a nightclub to buying groceries can result in death by firearm from a very hateful POS.

But somewhere, some douchebags are claiming it's a mental health problem without doing anything to help people get mental health treatment.

[markpkessinger]

53. Please stop trying to minimize the role of hate/homophobia in attacks like this!

There was a study released in June of this year. The period covered by the study was 2017-2020. Among the study's findings:

• The rate of violent victimization of lesbian or gay persons (43.5 victimizations per 1,000 persons age 16 or older) was more than two times the rate for straight persons (19.0 per 1,000).



• The rate of violent victimization against transgender persons (51.5 victimizations per 1,000 persons age 16 or older) was 2.5 times the rate among cisgender persons (20.5 per 1,000).

(Source: https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/violent-victimization-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-2017-2020 )

The LGBTQI+ movement has worked for far too long to bring consciousness of anti-LGBTQI+ violence to public consciousness to have it hijacked by someone who wants to focus solely on guns!

[maxsolomon]

62. The chicken and the egg.

The Nihilistic hate is the motivation; the firearm is the means.

If crazy fuck can't acquire a Semi-Automatic Weapon, does he attack the target? Likely not, although a knife/sword attack is POSSIBLE, it's far more difficult to pull off and far less deadly. A bomb is even harder.

Guns are easy. Semi-autos are super easy: 1 bullet per trigger pull. Easy makes it appealing, but it's not the root cause.