Lament #1 about what's happening to the latest generation.

[LAS14]

Last edited Tue Nov 29, 2022, 04:35 PM - Edit history (3)

Let's wait until there are no living people who were taught cursive before we disdain to spend a day or two introducing our children to the skill of reading cursive.

It's one thing to stop teaching kids how to write cursive, but to not spend even an hour on how to read it is tantamount to telling them that the people who came before them don't matter. They don't need to be able to read saved correspondence, never mind notes that grandparents might send them at birthdays. The underlying message is really bad for a society.

EDIT: A lot of people responded as if I were lamenting the loss of cursive overall. I'm not. As I tried to explain in the post, letting go of teaching kids to write is one thing, but not teaching them how to read is a way of saying, "Don't pay attention to the people who came before you. What they wrote is not important. And that, in turn, tells the kids what society's values are."

Do you agree? Disagree?

[DBoon]

1. you have a point there,but ..

... prior generations had a similar lament about kids no longer learning Latin.

[LAS14]

2. Were their parents and grandparents sending them messages in Latin? nt

[DBoon]

9. Latin was used for scholarly learning until fairly recent

Scientific texts, philosophy and literature were in Latin until fairly recently (in historical terms).

There is a breadth of knowledge locked up in Latin that you don't find in other ancient languages.

[RobinA]

14. I Would Pay Money

to learn Latin. I could have taken Latin in high school, I am a Boomer, but I chose German because we were German. I have since had French and Spanish. I can't speak any of them. I still hope to start Latin one of these days. A retirement project.

[brooklynite]

15. I can't imagine why; Cicero hasn't written anything new in years...

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. It's a made-up issue that's way too close to "we're losing the western world!!!!!!" for my liking.

People who need to know how to read cursive will be able to read cursive. Most of us can read some cursive but not others. It happens.

[Bucky]

30. As an educator, I disagree

The process of learning to write and read cursive is documented to opening up import eye-hand coordination neurons in the human brain. It's a skillset, like calculating multiplication tables or mathematic estimation or basketball bouncing, that has a significant number of cognitive knock-on effects on young people's critical thinking skills and problem solving skills. When you deprive kids of these "old fashioned" eye-hand coordination skills, you limit their life coping tools.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

35. Cursive is not the only thing that teaches those fine motor skills. Many, many art skills do the

same thing.

[Bucky]

38. True, but painting doesn't have that critical de-coding component

Don't trust me. Trust the science on the matter. (Follow the links for full follow up)

Research shows that learning to write in cursive offers brain benefits* to kids that they don't get from printing letters or keyboarding. An article from Psychology Today states that learning to write in cursive is an important tool for cognitive development. Specifically, cursive writing trains the brain to learn functional specialization, which is the capacity for optimal efficiency. When a child learns to read and write in cursive through consistent practice and repetition, he or she must effectively integrate fine motor skills with visual and tactile processing abilities. This multi-sensory experience supports cognitive function and development.

Even more exciting is the belief that learning to write in cursive can help ease symptoms of dyslexia. Since new research shows that dyslexia is caused by a functional disconnection in communication between the auditory and language centers of the brain, it stands to reason that learning to write in cursive can improve these communication deficits. An article from PBS.org states that when the tactile experience of using our hands is involved, there is a stronger association for learning and memory.

(* in case you don't have access to the WSJ article, the main point there is that "Using advanced tools such as magnetic resonance imaging, researchers are finding that writing by hand is more than just a way to communicate. The practice helps with learning letters and shapes, can improve idea composition and expression, and may aid fine motor-skill development." )

Just like learning to dribble a basketball teaches the brain far more than basketball dribbling, just like learning algebra trains the brain to do a lot more than solving for an unknown quantity from a pre-fabbed equation, just like reading literature teaches us a lot more than a new story, learning cursive writing does skads more for the human brain than just learning to read cursive writing from the past.

Arguing that it's only about reading old manuscripts is a bit reductio ad absurdum.

[Prairie_Seagull]

41. I rebelled about cursive not being taught in schools.

My daughters, both now in their late 20's were never taught this skill. I will say both graduated WSU and are living lives they see as valuable. While this is true, I believe that cursive writing used to be a metric that was also used establish a certain amount of style possible leading to increased personal pride.

Remember the Palmer method. Was a bit before my time but my father was taught it and people always commented on his ability to write cursive. I know it was a point of pride with him. I do not know the class time needed to teach it but my feeling still is that it is a net loss.

[Bucky]

43. I'd forgotten about the Palmer Method

I used to remember a lot more of that old school stylistic approach to life skills that verged on aesthetics.

Just like Senator Whitehouse argued in his attack on SCOTUS's Alito problem, "Procedure is the bone structure of justice," we seem to have forgotten that the way do things has an important impact on the quality of the things we do.

[CrispyQ]

4. Seen on Facebook: Cursive: A secret language for old folks.

Another thing a lot of young people can't do is read an analog clock. A young woman stopped me one day & asked, "What time is it?" I told her "It's a quarter till four." She said, "But what time is it?" At first I was confused, cuz I'd just told her the time, then I remembered an article I read about young people not reading old-fashioned clocks, so I said, "It's 3:45." She said "Thanks" & moved on.

Another interesting thing in the article is they did an experiment & found that people who can read analog clocks have a better sense of how much time has passed, especially the longer time goes on.

[LAS14]

23. Grandparents/parents didn't/don't communicate via analog clocks. nt

[CrispyQ]

24. Well, yeah. Analog clocks aren't for communicating they're for telling time.

Not getting your point.

[Bucky]

31. That's fascinating

There's such an unexplored treasure trove of cognitive connections that go on in the brain. Like, did you read about the strong correlation between Tetris-playing and soldiers recovering from PTSD? Researchers during the Iraq War found that soldiers who'd played a lot of Tetris before going into combat for lord-knows-what reason ended up having dramatically shorter recovery periods from severe PTSD. Skills that might seem frivolous to us at first blush often end up laying down cognitive traits that pay off with unique and unexpected dividends in human problem-solving needs.

[FSogol]

5. Should kids still be required to

Adjust gas lamps and cut wicks?
Hand-crank starters on engines?
Regulate coal shuttles to furnaces?
Adjust the knots on carriage harnesses?
Cut the cream off of milk bottles?
Straighten nails?
Churn butter?
Replace thatching in roofs?
Recaulk leaks in log cabin walls?
Cut pine boughs to place on dirt floors?
Chop wood?

Not knowing how to do these everyday tasks is tantamount to telling them that the people who came before them don't matter.

[LAS14]

22. None of those address the message being sent to the older generation who have..

...recorded lots of things in cursive.

[FSogol]

26. Well, thanks to the discovery of the Rosetta stone, we are able to understand Demotic, Egyptian

hieroglyphics, and ancient Greek, so hopefully someone will be able to figure out your flowery cursive.

I think the real issue here is that you don't feel your nieces pay enough attention to you. Like them, you probably went thru a self-absorbed period too whether you admit it or not. The way to connect with young relatives is to do things with them, not to leave then written life lessons. They'll have to learn those on their own.

While cursive is less useful for the future than good economics teaching or understanding facts vs internet speculation, there will also be a method to read/understand cursive. So cursive will disappear, but it will still be understandable by some means.

[LAS14]

44. A common problem with DU posts.

"I think the real issue here is that you don't feel your nieces pay enough attention to you. Like them, you probably went thru a self-absorbed period too whether you admit it or not."

How could you possibly know enough about me or my family to speculate this way?

[FSogol]

46. How? I see what you are typing. n/t

[MineralMan]

6. Well, learning to write in cursive also teaches how to read in it.

I'm not sure how you teach how to read cursive without teaching how to write it. I'm also not sure it matters all that much, except to people who write to their offspring and grand-offspring in cursive.

Frankly, most people's handwriting is mostly illegible, anyhow. Mine certainly is. Mostly from lack of use. I almost never write anything in a cursive hand any more. If I must write manually, I print, to make sure it can be read. I don't require others to decipher my scribbles.

[question everything]

7. I am getting ready to write cursive, carefully, for a handful of Holiday cards

Otherwise, my grocery list, appointments in my paper calendar - too often I cannot decipher

[MineralMan]

8. What happened to my cursive writing is something unique.

While in the USAF, I got sent to a total immersion Russian language school for almost a year. Part of what we did there was learn to take dictation in Russian and write it down, longhand, in the Cyrillic alphabet, in cursive. So, we learned to write all over again, and did it over and over again for 9 months. That destroyed my cursive writing in English. Absolutely destroyed it.

So, I switched to lettering written English, using the short-cut keystroke alphabet used by architects and draftsmen. Eventually, I could letter almost as fast as I used to be able to write in cursive. Best of all, anyone could read it.

Oddly, Russians do not print when writing by hand. The Cyrillic cursive alphabet looks very different from the printed version of Russian.

[electric_blue68]

27. Interesting. And the Cyrillic Alphabet looks very different in printed vs cursive letters?...

I took Russian for a year in 9th grade. I'm almost positive (this was in ? '66/'67) I learned cursive Cyrillic.

[question everything]

47. Fascinating story

Do you understand Russian today? Can you still readRussian?

[MineralMan]

48. Yes, I can still read Russian.

It's more difficult to understand spoken Russian, but I can get the gist of things like Putin giving a speech. That school was in 1966, so it was more than 50 years ago. I worked later as a translator and analyst, but then went on to other careers.

It was amazing, really, how much we learned in just 9 months. But, it was a 24-hour-a-day thing. We were not allowed to speak English within the boundaries of our school area, starting the first day of classes. We learned fast and retained what we learned pretty well. All of the instructors were native-speakers of Russian, so we learned spoken Russian without much of an American accent, too.

I never found it useful, though, after getting out of the USAF. Once in a while, I encounter a Russian speaker, but not often.

[cyclonefence]

10. Kids who write thank-you notes--not emails

get more presents. That is the rule at my house. Hell, I don't care if it's in cursive or printed, as long as the kid has had to take the time to find writing paper--or any paper--a pen--or a goddam crayon--and a stamp. The note must mention the gift, and it must express appreciation. "Thank you for the bearer bond you sent me. Love, Murgatroyd" is just fine. Murgatroyd will continue to get good presents. His brother, Ethelred, who didn't even send me an email, will not.

My young relatives know my rules, and they respond appropriately.

And sure, why the hell not work in a buggy whip factory, if such exists.

[CrispyQ]

25. The day after Christmas & my birthday,

Mom took me to the local mini-mart to buy thank-you notes & stamps. No playing until they were all written & ready to mail.

[cyclonefence]

45. Well, you were brought up right

[DBoon]

11. at best, I'd make it a high school elective

at best a nice-to-know

[Kaleva]

18. One could consider it to be art.

[LAS14]

21. It would take hours, not months, to learn to read cursive. nt

[Mariana]

33. Then anyone who wants to learn to read it can do so on their own.

[LAS14]

34. I was trying to make a point about the message our society is sending to kids about...

.. their attitude toward those who came before them. "Learn it if you want to," is not a good message, in my opinion.

[RobinA]

12. This I Can't Get

too excited about. It seems to me that an intelligent kid could and will figure out how to read cursive if he really wanted to.

Since cursive is often compared to Latin in these discussions, we learned Latin and Greek roots, etc. in a college prep English class. It has been an immense help to me in noncollege-related areas.

I do feel sorry for kids who have had their education in the past 20 or so years. There's so much they haven't been exposed to, including plenty of current stuff. It's not their fault. For example, my neice and nephew went to the same high school my sister and I did. They know nothing about genetics. Not one thing. Both of us have a good basic grasp of genetics, nothing Ivy League grad school, just a working knowledge that we learned in 10th grade biology class. Now what they learned that we did not I have yet to discover.

[brooklynite]

13. Isn't it a shame that we don't teach kids to read cuneiform?

Pretty much the same argument.

Not everyone is interested in genealogy; those that are (or are interested in medieval history) will learn the skills to study it.

FWIW - I'm 63 and could be a grandparent if I had children. I would never have written to them in cursive.

[BlackSkimmer]

17. I'm around your age and dearly value the letters that my mother wrote me throughout her life. All in

cursive. I have letters my father wrote to her as well, also in cursive. Nothing to do with genealogy to treasure those letters.

After my mother died, I found all the letters I'd written her during college, and later on in my life. All in cursive. Kind of fun to read.

I found a treasure trove of correspondence between her and my grandmother, who lived in Wales. Granny's handwriting is hard to read, but it would be indecipherable if I hadn't learned cursive.

I think it's a shame it's not taught. The dumbing down of a culture.

[brooklynite]

19. Question: how do YOU write to younger generations today?

Cursive? Block letters? Or (I'm guessing) email?

[Mariana]

36. What would you do if you couldn't read those letters?

Would you just let them go unread forever?

[ismnotwasm]

16. I never use cursive except to sign my name, and even that is usually a kind of hybrid.

Well done cursive is pretty, and that’s about it. It’s not useful, expect possibly as a discipline. Computers write the best cursive anyway.

In a generation or two, it will disappear, except as an anachronism. I don’t think it’s bad for society. I think this is how it is.

[Sky Jewels]

20. I asked my early-mid 20s kids if they were able to read cursive.

The answer: "kind of." They can sort of figure out the meaning if they "get" enough of the words.

I sort of miss writing in cursive. My script handwriting is lovely and flow-y, while my printing is choppy and not pleasing to the eye.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

28. Reading cursive and writing cursive are two separate skills

I use cursive to create my shopping list for grocery shopping, very neat and artistic.

At the grocery store, I can't make out half of what was written. Good thing I can remember what I needed. Mostly.

[Torchlight]

29. Whether I like it or not, I think cursive will be gone w/in anther 25 years.

Medium, symbol, and language evolves, with our approval or without it.



(Ic ne sprece Englisc. But I do speak the evolved and much newer English)

[Mariana]

37. It will never be gone completely.

People who are interested in history or genealogy will learn it. People who need to read old documents for their jobs will learn it. People who want to read old correspondence, like some in this thread, will learn it if they aren't monumentally lazy. It's not hard and books for adults are available for very little money.

[Torchlight]

40. True. My wife learned Powhatan script

when she was editing a work of fiction about John Smith. My initial point (made with an implicit error of absolutism) is that it will soon fade from our colloquial use and standardized knowledge bases to little more than a bibliographic cite (my guess), and eventually end up as part of the historical database, like Sumeric cuneiform.

[IcyPeas]

32. I'm biased because I like cursive....

So I think it can be something beautiful. ... it's art. took many a calligraphy class in the 70s

Also having nuns teaching it made it something you had to do well! you couldn't start using a pen until you mastered cursive.

but it's a shame a lot of kids don't have any art classes either these days.

[Mossfern]

39. My handwriting is a combination of cursive and printing

I have written to my grandchildren in cursive and realized that my daughter-in-law needed to read it to them.
I sometimes forget now, but I try to remember to print. I find tedious and not as much fun or decorative.

I've been complemented on my "handwriting" - that perplexes me.
Being an actual little old lady I find the discontinuation of teaching cursive very sad.
When a person puts pen to paper, to me, it's personal and lets me know that someone actually took special time and effort to communicate with me. Receiving a posted letter is most exciting! An email - meh...

[LAS14]

42. To put it another way.

Let's wait until there are no living people who were taught cursive before we disdain to spend a day or two introducing our children to the skill of reading cursive.