General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNeal katyal is a former solicitor general, Charlie savage is a newspaper reporter.
Why does MSNBC give them equal credibility related to where an
Indictment might be brought on the documents case? Neal says it clearly would be D.C., Savage was trying to argue it might be Florida. I'll go with katyal any day.
RockRaven
(14,784 posts)Their business model has nothing to do with providing accurate, useful information to the public. Nothing at all. Everyone should keep that in mind while watching, and when choosing whether or not to watch.
triron
(21,916 posts)cachukis
(2,201 posts)had the right to take classified documents with him. The discovery of the documents in Florida is where the crime was established.
Katyal, gracious as usual, will wait his turn to respond.
I suspect he will suggest that the protocol of managing those documents took place in D.C. and that is where things went south.
Of course, more learned minds will advance this discussion.
Bev54
(9,963 posts)when he packed up the documents to have them sent to Florida.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)I have no idea where some posters make declarations of fact when there is nothing that supports their statement.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)Must he follow protocol?
Did the former president let protocol interfere with his actions?
I used my understanding of the conversation between the televised parties to offer my thoughts.
The president controls the classification of documents, according to all I've read. He must do so procedurally.
He pretty much ruled dictatorially while in office. Some guardrails held, but many failed.
No one kept him from shipping the documents to Florida. No one kept him from carting cases of those documents overseas.
Right or wrong, he had the right or at least the ability to take those documents as president. What is the rebuttal? They were not stolen until his term expired.
I am chatting about my impressions. Someone enlighten me.
Bev54
(9,963 posts)There is a process that he has to go through and it needs to be documented with the departments that the documents originated. You really need to find a better source of information because you sound much like a Fox viewer.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)W_HAMILTON
(7,813 posts)When his time ended as president, he no longer had a claim to have those documents -- classified or not -- at his personal property. They belong to the federal government and he was no longer a federal government employee. They were to be returned to the federal government, and he was given time and time again the opportunity to do so. Florida is not the area of jurisdiction because the property belongs to the federal government in Washington, DC. That is what and where the property has been stolen from.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)But the president was head of the government and had the right, as president, to have the documents at his disposal. And since the government's titular head was in Florida with said documents, could it not be assumed that they were in a rightful place up and until the time he was no longer president?
Just looking for clarity.
W_HAMILTON
(7,813 posts)The only reason he was allowed to take them from the federal government in Washington, DC, to begin with was because -- at the time -- he was president.
And, no, Florida was not the "rightful place." The property was always the federal government's. The only reason he was allowed to have them with him was due to his role as president. Once he was no longer president, it was his duty to return the property of the federal government. He chose not to return the property; thus, he was essentially stealing government property. That's no different than any government employee. Hell, ANY employee really. If I get a laptop from work to use for my job and then I get fired and refuse to return that laptop, you can bet that I'm gonna get charged for theft. And the jurisdiction will be wherever my work HQ was because that is where the property was stolen from, not my home just because that's where the stolen property happened to be at the time.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)out of Palm Beach for a while? And if I worked for a company that had a national presence and was prosecuted for computer theft, would that prosecution take place at the location of the home office or at the branch?
An aside, I ran a company that had 10 offices statewide and when legal matters had to be adjudicated, most were done locally.
I defer to those who have more knowledge. My two cents.
W_HAMILTON
(7,813 posts)You have been getting inundated with posts from -- your words -- "those who have more knowledge" than you on the subject and yet you continue to challenge them.
The "federal government" was never located at freaking Mar-a-Lago. For a time, the president was. Now, neither the president and certainly not the "federal government" are located at Mar-a-Lago. And yet property of the federal government remained there, even after he had been informed that it was required, BY LAW, to be returned. He refused. That's a crime. A crime he is now being investigated for.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)the nation? Does not FEMA have operational status everywhere. Do we not have National Guard stations and Military Bases from coast to coast?
How is it then, that the Federal Government is not everywhere and anywhere in the US?
Is Air Force One where the government is when the president is aboard? Or is it still in D.C.?
W_HAMILTON
(7,813 posts)I don't know what more to tell you and it's not worth belaboring this any further.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)Charlie Savage had a good response to Neal Katyal.
Neal did not have a quick rejoinder and I was trying to figure what it might be.
Neal is tops.
Charlie's angle made sense. I think D.C. should be the venue, but I want to know why it will beat out Cannon and I didn't get that in this conversation.
I'm sure the pros will handle it.
Bev54
(9,963 posts)know what they are doing.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)Charlie Savage's response to Neal Katyal on where jurisdiction might be. Neal did not have a ready response and I was impressed with Charlie suggesting that the offense took place in Florida.
I had a blast posing possibilities and contemplating the next moves. Thanks.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)It's the law...you don't take USG property, particularly State secrets, when you leave office. He doesn't get to declassify docs after the fact. He could certainly declassify docs before he left office, but I believe he needs to inform the USG of his act. Laying hands on the docs and thinking he declassified them, doesn't count.
"Right or wrong, he had the right or at least the ability to take those documents as president." Please point to a law that covers Trump for taking top secret docs when leaving the office.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)That is his crime. It was discovered in Florida after a tip from someone who felt guilty. I did say he had to follow procedure to declassify. As president, and he was still president, he shipped the docs to Florida. After his term he became a criminal for keeping those doviments.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)as soon as Biden became President, he was not. Any TS files he took should have been returned post-haste, probably before the fact. Pretty sure that Achieves knew that Trump took the files, but...protocol. They most likely had to follow procedures on getting the files back. Trump obviously told them to fuck-off, so they went to the DOJ. The rest is history.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)I was struck by Charlie Savage's response to Neal Katyal's disagreement. Katyal did not have a quick response. I did not find a fallacy to Savage saying that jurisdiction could be in Florida because that is the locale of the crime. The docs went from legitimate management to stolen objects there.
I felt the protocols or processes of management of the documents originate in D.C. My sense is that it is the best jurisdiction.
I feel that Katyal will have a chance to answer.
In discussions this evening, I expressed my thinking and looked for more authority.
When I read the OP, I shared my thoughts.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)Trump, as President, had packed up those TS documents in those corrugated boxes and shipped them to the Kremlin, instead of Florida? Would Moscow have jurisdiction? Hey, he was still President at the time!
cachukis
(2,201 posts)I would suspect we'd be in deeper trouble than we are for having elected him in the first place.
Since the documents belong to "we the people," they would be subject to the same espionage laws that the former president should be jailed for right now.
He has no right to these documents and should be put in a place that prevents him from doing further harm to our country.
I think he should be in jail.
Jesus. I was just commenting on Charlie Savage having a great response to Katyal.
Having an enlightenment.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)Perhaps Trump's lawyers will indeed argue jurisdiction on this point. I'm no lawyer, but I hope this gets tried in Washington as I think this is where it belongs.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)I was just trying to consider his justification that the case had to be heard in D.C.
Trump broke with protocol/procedure. That happened in Washington. It is where he established intent.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)with him on all those international travels? He was still president when he shipped those docs to Florida. I suspect returning them was expected and when they didn't come back the Archives had grounds to investigate.
Just thinking out loud.
Bev54
(9,963 posts)the crime is in California and is tried there. The documents were requested back before he left as his lawyers have stated. The proceeds of a crime were found in Florida, that is the only reason they went to a Florida court in the first place to get a search warrant. It does not matter now that he took them on flights when he was president, they are not charging him for that and is not related to the crime of taking documents he had no business having in his possession at Mar-a-Lago or anywhere else. There is a good chance there are more documents at other of his properties but again the crime happened in DC.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)He was still president. Just curious.
They are not his documents, they belong to the archives and the US government.
cachukis
(2,201 posts)But at the time of their removal from D.C. he was the head of the government. Hence, he was not in criminal possession until 20 January. Am I wrong?
Bev54
(9,963 posts)cachukis
(2,201 posts)Bev54
(9,963 posts)cachukis
(2,201 posts)I don't know.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)Should have returned the TS files the second before he was not President.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)If Trump took the docs from DC on 1/19 and brought them to FL, he could've done so legally as he's still POTUS.
So he's sitting in FL and Biden is sworn in on 1/20. Now he's committed a crime because he no longer has the privilege to possess these docs.
So, the question is ... could it be argued that the crime itself ... actually took place in Florida, and thus that FL courts might have jurisdiction?
I think it's an interesting question myself and I have no idea what the answer is.
Edit: And while he's POTUS, it doesn't matter what the security situation was in MAL, there's no 'rule' or 'law' about what the (current) POTUS does with them, how they're secured, etc. POTUS has the authority to have whatever docs he wants, no matter what. In fact, while POTUS he could probably openly sell them to our enemies to put money in his own pocket, and all he'd face is impeachment for it, given the DoJ's infamous rules about POTUS being essentially above the law while in office.
OAITW r.2.0
(23,862 posts)It is a legitimate question.....we shall see.
Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)people were in and out All the time and the security is not sufficient. He needs to go to jail and he kept them when he was no longer president...took some as he was leaving...people sit in jail for years who have done less. He refused to give them back and likely sold some of them.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)they at Trumps golden shack in Florida (manages to b pretentious and ugly at the same time)
Joinfortmill
(14,247 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,504 posts)I switched channel when a reporter was pretending to be a lawyer.