The only way to end the war

[Celerity]

The EU must not only ensure that Ukraine can attain a just and lasting peace but support the embedding of universal norms.

https://www.socialeurope.eu/the-only-way-to-end-the-war





Russia’s war against Ukraine, as with almost all wars, will end at the negotiating table. But negotiations cannot start until Ukraine’s territorial integrity has been restored. Since a change of heart in Moscow is unlikely in the short term, the faster that Ukraine gets the means to force Russian troops to return to Russia and stay there, the better—for Ukraine and the rest of Europe.

We should all aim for a swift conclusion to the fighting. But, paradoxically, to bring about that outcome, we must make clear to the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, that we will stay the course, doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes, so that he sees there is no point in endlessly sending young Russians into the meat grinder that is the Ukrainian front. Putin will not win this war. In fact, he has already lost it. But he could prolong it or create a semi-frozen conflict if Ukraine is deprived of what it needs to expel Russian forces. For any peace to last, it must be just. And to be just, it must respect Ukraine’s international borders, its democracy, its statehood and its right to choose its own destiny.

‘Total enemy’

This is crucial, because Russia’s justification for its aggression is based on the denial of Ukrainian statehood. Such claims are born of a Russian nationalist and imperialist ideology that rules out the very idea of a distinct Ukrainian identity. Russia defines Ukraine’s people as what the Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt called a ‘total enemy’, which must not be merely defeated but erased—not for what it does but for who it is.

This is Russia’s justification for torture, abduction of children, burning Ukrainian books and countless war crimes. The violence unleashed on Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians is comparable to Stalin’s great terror, when millions of innocent people were killed for being ‘class enemies’. Stalin’s terror ‘worked’ precisely because targeting innocent people forced everyone into total conformity with the will of the state. This is totalitarianism.

snip

[underpants]

1. 👀

Reading later. Thanks.

[JohnSJ]

2. Putin, and probably a good number Russians believe that "historically Ukraine has been part of

Russia".

As long as that is the mindset in Russia, this war will not end. When the Soviet Union fell in 1991, Ukraine formally declared itself an independent country, and formed their own government.

Until Putin loses support among the Russian people, Russia will continue this war. The hard-line old school Communists will insure that.

There is a parallel going on here, and MTG spelled it out with her "red states divorcing from the union".

and while that was ridiculed by many, it is a very real threat. January 6th was evidence of that, but it has been going on for sometime now.

[ancianita]

6. Putin has misinformed them.

Kyiv and Ukraine existed long before the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union colonized them behind the Iron Curtain.
Ukraine is never going back to that mafia KGB world.
And the 500,000 - 1,000,000 who've left don't want to return, either.

[niyad]

8. Thank you for posting this. Would you consider posting this as its own OP,

so that we can rec and bookmark for handy reference? Thanks in advance.

[JohnSJ]

10. Doesn't matter, that is their view, and until that changes, this war will go on for a long time

Native Americans occupied the US long before also, so that line of argument doesn’t hold

What does have merit is when the Soviet Union fell in 1991, Ukraine declared their independence, and Russia under Gorbachev accepted that

If China supplies military support to Russia, that would be a very dangerous development

[NJCher]

11. So you're saying

That greedy money bucks China is going to aid Russia for the short term gain of the sale of such arms?

They know full well they will be cut out of Ukrainian reconstruction for doing so.

Think they are really that stupid?

[JohnSJ]

14. I don't know. It sure has our Secretary of State concerned, and I believe China is meeting with

Putin now.

A lot also depends on what happens here in 2024.

God Forbid a desantis or a trump occupied the WH in 2024.

[NJCher]

16. Hmmmm

I wonder if Blinken might say such a thing for strategic reasons. Hmmm.






Oh, silly me. Diplomacy never involves subtlety, does it?

[NJCher]

12. On a more practical note here

Do you know that for a fact or is this something you picked up from a Putin rally?

Because I’m sure you’re aware of a post that appeared here in the last few days that told how Putin had to pay people to show up to hear his speech. Yeah, $7 I think it was.

And an aside, boohoo, Biden upstaged him.

Also, I’m just curious how one might measure the support of which you speak. Market research agency heads run a real risk of falling out a window for the “wrong” results, so I’m a little concerned about how one might measure this support that you are citing.

Just curious. I hope you’ll address these practical concerns I have. I’ll happily jump on your bandwagon once you do.

[JohnSJ]

15. I hear that he has a majority of support in Russia on Bloomberg and other news sources. If you

trust polls, they indicate he has never fallen below 60%:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_image_of_Vladimir_Putin#:~:text=Ratings%20and%20polls-,Domestic,65%25%20during%20his%20first%20presidency.

[NJCher]

17. Urm....

It’s 2023.

Got anything more recent than 2020?

And that’s being generous. This article is more like a history.

Also, why would Bloomberg et al be able to get an honest assessment when Russian based pollsters cannot? How do the interviewees determine the veracity of the questioner? The answer to this question is essential in making your point convincing.

[JohnSJ]

20. Just google it, I just picked the first one. Here is the Bloomberg excerpt

https://www.yahoo.com/now/russian-support-putin-war-ukraine-050033692.html

Do you know if Putin is unpopular in Russia among the majority in Russia?

I don't know, I am just pointing out what I have heard analysts say on various news programs.

[NJCher]

21. My point is

That what you’re claiming has legitimacy problems. No poll is going to be accurate because of the fact that there is a retribution history.

Would you answer that question honestly if you lived in Russia?

So since this is a faulty assumption on your part, you cannot make the claim that you’re making.

[JohnSJ]

23. I have no idea what people in Russia "really" think. I sometimes have trouble recognizing our

country anymore.

When racisim and bigotry is "legitimized", among other things, something is very wrong.

[NJCher]

13. Oh and while you're at it

What is the very real parallel with mtg? I don’t see it. Please explain.

[JohnSJ]

18. She wants the red states to secede from the U.S. That is in effect wanting the red states

to declare war on the United States.

It is illegal, but that doesn't mean it isn't a threat.

The country was very lucky to survive January 6. There is no doubt in my mind that the insurrectionists were planning to do harm to our elected representatives.

This was the same group mindset from those involved in the plot to kidnap Governor Whitmar in Michigan.

[NJCher]

19. Ok I understand that

But how does this apply to your argument about Putin?

[JohnSJ]

22. Declaring war on Ukraine because Putin viewed Ukraine and NATO as a threat. The fact that it was

contrived as an excuse to invade Ukraine. It didn't matter to Putin whether it was valid or not.

In the same way, I see the MAGA crazies viewing the Federal Government as a threat. That is what these jackassed homegrown militia movements are pushing, and why it so important that trump and those involved in the attempted overthrow of our government be prosecuted as soon as possible.

Maybe it isn't a good parallel. Russia invading an independent Ukraine, verses a group of MAGAs within the country wanting to bring the country down.

[2naSalit]

3. I would go further...

Though perhaps wait until the fighting has stopped, and call for dissolution of russia as a country. It must be broken up into more equitable, smaller countries with self determination. Throughout the history of the country, russia, they have proven to be nothing more than a community of aggression and barbarism. They have contributed little to nothing in the way of betterment of humankind.

[dalton99a]

4. Kick

[Martin68]

5. I agree.

[dlk]

7. We also see the "Total Enemy" idea more and more in some Republican circles

They want to erase Democrats. It’s not surprising this view has its roots in totalitarianism.

[niyad]

9. KNR and bookmarking for this important piece.

[TomSlick]

24. The problem with ending the war in negotiations is that any agreement with Putin would be worthless.

Putin has proven by his unilaterally withdrawal from the New START treaty proves that an agreement with a mad autocrat is meaningless.