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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe cynical insidiousness of "Guns don't kill people; People kill people."
Another day, another mass shooting in America.
I'm far from the first person to point out that by this point, we've become numb to these horrors. What 20 years ago might have dominated the headlines for nearly a month will most likely get a couple of days at most until we move onto the next thing.
But even so, there are certain constants that arise from these events. And to me, one of the most prominent of these constants has to be the talking points. The snippets that get repeated over and over and over again.
The "thoughts and prayers" reaction.
The reflexive response to the "thoughts and prayers" reaction.
The parsing of the Second Amendment every which way in order to determine what really was it that the drafters of the Constitution wanted, and why.
Talk about needing to arm everyone and everybody in order to protect against other people who are also armed.
Talk about needing to address mental health, and then when it comes time to address mental health, not addressing mental health.
The talking points--over traditional media, over social media, in day to day conversation--are as endless as this epidemic itself. But there's one in particular that grates me more than any other.
And it's a classic. An old standard of sorts, coming from none other than the fetid, diseased bowels of the NRA itself: "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."
It actually dates back farther than many people think, all the way back to 1911 when gun control legislation first became a subject of Congressional debate, and became more and more popularized throughout the 1960s, 70s and 80s as mass shooting events became less and less of an anomaly, until it became regularly spouted by the likes of Charlton Heston and Wayne La Pierre.
And while the endless repetition of the phrase has essentially reduced it to nothing more than a mindless cliché, I think it's important to stop for a moment and recognize how truly cynical a belief it is. How it perpetuates the idea of dark fatalism, of hopelessness, of inaction.
And if anything, yesterday's shooting truly brings home the utter frustration of purpose that phrase.
Here at DU--a well-trafficked political message board of a distinct Left-leaning bent--when we first hear the breaking news alerts about an active shooter or a mass shooting, before all the facts are known, there is a certain reflexive urge to immediately label the shooting as having a conservative, right-wing motive to it.
And to be fair to us, it's not merely a desire for political gamesmanship. Most people on the Right place a lot more value and attention on gun ownership than most people on the Left, so it only stands to reason that more people with immediate access to guns are going to be at least somewhat conservative in nature. In one sense, it's a Law of Numbers rationalization.
And no doubt there are plenty of examples where the perpetrators of these mass shootings in fact have been affiliated with far-right ideologies. Charleston. El Paso. Tree of Life. And numerous others in the list.
But even so, the majority of mass shooting have no clear ideological motivation, either from the Right or the Left.
Indeed, the motivation for many of these tragedies can remain a mystery for years after they take place, including some of the most horrific of them all. Think Las Vegas or Sandy Hook, for example.
Obviously, every one of these shootings has been committed by a person. No one has ever been serendipitously shot by a gun without a human actor somehow at play. So to Messrs. Heston and La Pierre, congratulations; you are not wrong on that one singular point of order.
However, people are people, and right now we have 8 billion of them living on this earth, each with their own very unique set of life circumstances and beliefs. And when you boil that 8 billion down to people who have committed the unspeakable act of taking a gun and trying to shoot as many people as they possibly can, those select few are just as varied a sort as the entire whole.
We've had white mass shooters, black mass shooters, Hispanic mass shooters, Middle Eastern mass shooters and Asian mass shooters. We've had mass shooters who are young and old, male and female, believers (of virtually all practiced religions) and atheists, and--yes--both people on the Right and Left of the political spectrum. We've had mass shooters with a long documented history of mental illness and mass shooters with nary a red flag at all.
It's been reported that the individual who committed the horrific mass shooting yesterday in Nashville was transgendered. Importantly, it's not clear yet whether that person's gender identity had anything to do with that person's motive for the shooting, but even so--all that means is that it's one more wrinkle, one more tiny tile in this sick mosaic that has gripped our country.
And what is the only common thread among them all, the very only one?
Guns.
They all used guns to commit their mass murders.
Guns--far from the only deadly weapon that exists, but also by far the most convenient and efficient tool for the ordinary person to kill and to kill easily.
And right now, we are living in a country with a very uneven perspective as to these particular killing tools. With that uneven perspective, we find ourselves with more of these guns than any other developed country on Earth.
And with more guns, it is only logical that there are more gun deaths. And more mass gun deaths at that.
We also live in a country where there exists a certain mindset by many that gun ownership is somehow central to civilized life. That without the ability to have easy--if not virtually unfettered--access to guns, we'd somehow melt into bloody lawlessness. And not just any guns, but guns with very little practicality for ordinary civilians.
No, I'm sorry. This cannot in any way be boiled down to a "people problem."
Our problems as people are as wide and varied as our species.
But this one problem, this problem right now and right here in the United States?
It's a gun problem.
And don't let anyone tell you it isn't.
badhair77
(4,216 posts)guns, then dont let those people have guns. Control the gun availability.
Sneederbunk
(14,290 posts)Kaleva
(36,294 posts)Baldwin didn't own the revolver he had in his possession.
50 Shades Of Blue
(9,975 posts)Freddie
(9,259 posts)Seen on a bumper sticker years ago. About sums it up.
Disaffected
(4,554 posts)Guns don't kill people but they make it a lot faster and easier.
In any case, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is no more than a meaningless truism which adds nothing to the debate.
They make it easier and quicker and leave less time to overcome an impulse.
A good friends teenage grandson committed suicide with his daddys gun. If he hadnt found a gun would he still be here? Yet the gun-humpers absolutely dismiss suicide as a gun problem.
Kaleva
(36,294 posts)Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)Kaleva
(36,294 posts)Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)I just saved you 5 seconds. You're welcome.
Kaleva
(36,294 posts)The issue probably isn't important enough for you to respond to it
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)I do not.
Hell, it took me near an hour to write this post. But that's my own fault as an English major.
The Unmitigated Gall
(3,803 posts)Has always been Yes, people DO kill people far more easily with a gun!
RobinA
(9,888 posts)contention that with guns illegal, let's say, all guns, guns would become unobtainable and therefore cease to be a problem? Because I can't quite get there. Although I am not anywhere near "the fetid, diseased bowels of the NRA itself" I still ultimately come down to "Guns don't kill people. people kill people." While I certainly wouldn't stand in the way of ANY gun legislation, I just don't think that is the main problem. I think it's a cultural problem.
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)SYFROYH
(34,169 posts)They are not any easier to acquire?
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)That's 60 years. Contrary to the rhetoric, firearms are harder to legally acquire now than they were then. Yet this cancer of school shooting is metastasizing. So what has changed? Obviously something.
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)...versus now?
Because I can almost guarantee you it is higher now than it was back then. Perhaps even exponentially so.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)... but I concur with that assessment. The question is "Why?" A partial answer is that nothing makes people want something more than telling them that soon they won't be able to have it. Talk of bans drives sales of AR-style rifles like nothing else.
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)Then we should talk about schmestricting the schmales of SchmAr-Schm15s and other similar schmemi-schmautomatic schmifles.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)... schmestricting the schmales of a schmype of schmifle that schmaccounts for only a tiny schmercentage of schmun schmeaths is schmoductive how?
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)...account for the majority of high fatality (10 +) mass shootings in the US in the past 20 years (12 out of 21 featured those weapons). And those have risen precipitously during that time period.
(There were 4 shootings with 10+ fatalities in the 00s, 13 in the 10s and 4 so far in the 20s. Compare that to only 2 in the 90s, 5 in the 80s, 1 in the 70s, 1 in the 60s and 0 in the 50s).*
So if a shooter is not just looking to kill someone, but looking for as high a body count as possible, it seems AR-15 type weapons are the favored choice.
Now, maybe you might be willing to waive off these mass shootings as somehow being mere anomalies, but I'm not. Clearly, we are looking at more and more of these events in recent years compared to the past. And the increasing availability and popularity of high capacity semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 has to be factor in all of this.
All of this seems to invite the question: What purpose does an AR-15 serve, other than a high casualty count? What legitimate reasons is there for it for civilian purposes? Does it simply feel good to shoot during target practice? What is it?
* Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)...account for the majority of high fatality (10 +) mass shootings in the US in the past 20 years (12 out of 21 featured those weapons).
12 out of 21: barely a majority of incidents that are only a tiny fraction of the overall gun death toll in the US. Yet a ban on these weapons seems to be the sine qua non of gun control advocacy. How about compromises, like licensure and increased background checks for semi-automatic rifles?
The real question is whether it is the causative factor. I maintain that it is not. Take these weapons away, and others will take their place. Then you will argue for those to be banned as well, and the root cause of the problem will remain undetermined and unaddressed.
AndyS
(14,559 posts)I'll distill it for ya. Profit from a gun that nobody wanted until it was promoted thru masculinity and machismo.
It was sold to you appealing to the weakest part of masculine human nature. And you just ate it up.
That's the editorial 'you' by the way.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)The one thing the US does REALLY WELL is marketing.
And they market the crap out of guns 24/7 on an ever increasing pace
We now have this gun culture that has merged their warped fantasy world with reality
So much that feedback loops exist the reinforce the "love of guns" in popular culture, fear of others, etc all contributing to the problem
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)And they market the crap out of guns 24/7 on an ever increasing pace
We now have this gun culture that has merged their warped fantasy world with reality
So much that feedback loops exist the reinforce the "love of guns" in popular culture, fear of others, etc all contributing to the problem
In re the AR-15, that is? It wasn't 1963, when if first hit the civilian market. Or 1973. Or 1983. Or 1993. The real spike happened after the sunsetting of the 1994 ban, which had created an artificially inflated demand for that particular weapon that no amount of macho marketing could hope to rival. Arguably, the ban also lost the Democrats control of Congress in the 1994 midterms, but that's another discussion.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)Pretty hard to boil it down to some 'event' date nor is there "one" factor that has created this problem.
From the easier ability through various channels to market weapons through on-line, social media, media in general to the closing of mental health facilities (thanks Raygun), to GOP culture wars, WP and other hate groups rise, stoking of fear (immigration), etc, etc, etc.
At the danger of being "anecdotal" (and not to isolate this as the "sole cause" or issue) - some observations on the general "culture" over the years:
Late 60s thru 70s guns (handguns, semi-auto M16/AR types) were pretty much relegated to the cops or military. Petty much any cop TV show had revolvers, etc. Movies (James Bond) etc were more varied (the little PPK gun against the armies) or of course the war movies had semi or full automatic. I knew a few people who had guns but for the most part it was a pretty small group (yes, I know personal experience). Going to the gun store was not like it is now where its like a Costco or Walmart experience with nice salesmen (and women). It was going to the usually sketchy part of town where the cops bought their stuff. And the salespeople werent really that friendly unless you were a regular. Yeah you could buy a long gun from Sears. But not a handgun or AR style. You got your info from the magazines like Guns and Ammo right next to Hustler and Penthouse magazines.
Going into the 80s 90s you get a lot of the cool factor going. SWAT, Sonny Crockett's gun on Miami Vice, the Terminator and other shoot em up movies. HEAT movie with the LA shoot outs, etc. Not as CAUSE but as an example of the guns culture growing. A feedback loop of guns are ok and cool. And boy you better have one if youre a good guy and the bad guys come. Still no internet so less exposure and bonding on-line. You had to got to the weird gun range to shoot with the really sketchy guys and the cops.
Then the more modern times. Websites that catalog every gun used by every hero or villain on every TV or movie. Marketing on the cool or manly factor of having a gun. Or guns the more the better. Accessories. Forum chats that people can bond on. Bigger and nicer gun stores that were much more friendly. More acceptance that its just a tool etc. etc. Modern gun ranges modeled after arcades that you can rent machine guns, etc.
Add in all the other factors: fear, manipulation for donations (GOP), mental health issues, social media exposure of the shooters, media exposure, fetization, etc, etc and here we are.
Note: not a complete picture of a vast problem
. And the growing culture of guns.
Again not cause and effect. Feedback loops. And playing the statistics that the average person wont go shoot up a school, but the outliers might. And they have more access and more exposure to guns because of the above.
yagotme
(2,919 posts)The National Matches at Camp Perry, OH, were primarily won by M1A's (civilian M-14's) prior to that. The M1A system had to be tuned, babied, and usually the best shooters had a spare rifle off the line, just in case. When the guys getting out of the military in the late 70's and early 80's started shooting in civilian life, they liked the system they trained with. Now, an AR is an accessory maker's delight. You can get an AR tuned, in short order, at home, without having to take it to a gunsmith, and it will usually shoot rings around a moderately tuned M1A. And it will STAY that way, with far less maintenance. (Shoots easier, too. Less recoil, more forgiving in position.)You can, with a few special tools, swap barrels out a home (barrels run 3-4,000 rds on a "match" rifle. They still shoot well at closer range, but won't hold muster at 600 yds). Now, throw in a ban or two, and watch the public run to the stores to get theirs before they're gone. Now, you have a popular rifle, that smaller statured shooters (think women, youth) can shoot well, with less weight and recoil, in high demand. The gun companies are going to give the public what it wants.
Tommy Carcetti
(43,174 posts)...definitely a far different attitude towards those guns by many of people who own them.
They're no longer considered primarily hunting tools or even a fail-safe means of home defense, but rather have been given some sort of greater societal import.
Thus the twisted impulse to buy multiple guns per household, increasing the likelihood that at least one of those guns could be used for illegal purposes.
Sandy Hook happened, 26 elementary school children and staff were murdered, and the first impulse by way too many people was to run out to the nearest gun store to buy AR-15s in case they were later prohibited.
SYFROYH
(34,169 posts)The data are interesting in that household with guns is relatively flat at around 40%
Other data says that 3% of gun owners own the vast majority of guns. But there arent usually more than 3 used by a shooter. It doesnt matter if a mass shooter has 3 or 100 guns.
Yes attitudes are different about guns. Theyve become a political football.
and yes many people bought ARs after Sandy Hook because the first instinct of many were to ban AR rifles.
allegorical oracle
(2,357 posts)parents reportedly denied knowing she owned any. The guns were purchased at five different gun shops. That's a problem. The usual person wouldn't have a need for that many gun purchases. Thought gun sales were tracked more efficiently. We need better red flag laws.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)I compete in four different target sports: trap (single-shot shotgun), sporting clays (repeating shotgun), bullseye (.22 pistol), and sporter rifle (.22 rifle). One main gun and one spare for each means eight guns in total just to cover competition uses. Add guns for hunting and self-defense and you easily get to a dozen or more.
The bottom line is that it only takes one gun to kill someone. What would counting and tracking have done? I agree that we need red flag laws, with judicial oversight. But that should kick in for any and all purchases and possession: search the home and take what's there, and place that person on a "cannot buy" list that goes nationwide. That's the only way it would work.
Elessar Zappa
(13,964 posts)and I dont know the reason. But violence by gun isnt new at all in this country. In fact, the overall gun violence rate is lower now than it was 30 years ago. Its a national sickness and the only possible solution, barring huge cultural change, is banning certain types of weapons and magazines.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Mass shootings are far more common now
[...]
In fact, the overall gun violence rate is lower now than it was 30 years ago. Its a national sickness and the only possible solution, barring huge cultural change, is banning certain types of weapons and magazines.
The "certain types of weapons and magazines" that you're asking to ban are those that are used in mass shootings, and banning them would have little effect on the overall death toll. Prohibition is always easier than "huge cultural change," but is minimally effective, as seen in the "War on Drugs."
Mad_Machine76
(24,406 posts)and increasingly are openly allowed in more environments than before.
mzmolly
(50,985 posts)You don't see the nutters who parrot that 'defend' themselves with anything but - a gun.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Straw Man
(6,623 posts)... get rid of persons. Persons who kill people, that is. You can put them to death, or if that's too distasteful, remove them from society for the rest of their natural lives.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Repeat: nothing. AW bans will merely lead to them to use more mundane but still deadly weapons.
Our entire legal system is based on punishment after the fact.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Straw Man
(6,623 posts)I'm not the one who's asking for new laws that will deepen the political divide in this country and will save few if any lives. Forcing suicidal killers to change weapons is a whack-a-mole activity and a waste of time and political capital.
The Nashville school shooter killed six people. That could have been done with a cowboy revolver. Any death is tragic. Your comparative calculus of deadliness is a dead end, practically and morally. Moral outrage justifies demands for an solution; it doesn't justify the insistence that there is only one valid solution.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Moral dead end to put limits on automatic weapons? Nonsense. It is practical and moral to limit them.
The Nashville shooter shot the lock off, that's one shot, five left. The way automatic weapons with large magazines are so effective at killing people is that you can hit someone with three shots instead of trying to pick each person off with a single carefully aimed shot. In the middle of a hectic scene where people might be throwing things at you like desks and fire extinguishers. You may think you are that good of a shot, but mass shooters do not have such a high opinion of their capabilities and facts bear that out.
You suggest "getting rid of persons" as an approach and then you say it won't work. So you make a point and then attack your own point.
You are aptly named "Straw Man".
You may be talking about "only one valid solution", but I think you are talking to yourself as everyone else is suggesting multiple solutions. Yet another straw man argument.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)... that revolvers can be reloaded, right? And that more than one weapon can be carried? All that it takes is for the shooter to exercise a modicum of creative thinking and initiative. At best your proposed bans would make their gruesome task a little bit harder. Is that a worthwhile goal?
Obviously semi-automatic weapons are more lethal, but to spend all your energy on reducing rather than eliminating the death toll is misguided. There are valid reasons for citizens to own semi-automatic weapons. Self-defense is one. And how would your feel about the "resisting tyranny" argument if we had a Handmaid's Tale style reactionary government deeply entrenched in Washington?
You are aptly named "Straw Man".
Is said it won't work perfectly -- in other words, it might go a along way toward reducing the bulk of crime-related gun death, but it will not eliminate the suicide-by-cop scenario because nothing will -- certainly not an assault-weapons ban.
I have the feeling you don't know what a straw-man argument is.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)It is bogus.
1) There are not enough guns to blunt the US Armed Forces if it comes to that.
2) Few would ever do anything.
3) The present danger that is massacring school children and warping the lives of millions of others is a bigger possibility (since it is a certainty) than the possibility of a tyrannical government (a real danger but not above 50%, for example).
4) There is a much higher chance of an RW nut reaction to a duly elected lawful government than any realistic chance of armed overthrow of Handmaid tyranny by leftists.
5) Tyranny gets overthrown in places without the public using AR-15s.
The "tyranny" argument is bogus and an RW talking point.
7 posted on 2017-08-06, by fivecatsandadog (DRAIN THE SWAMP. BUILD THE WALL. EFF the rogue judges, Obama and the MSM.)
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)... let's look at your suppositions:
If you were heading a tyrannical government, would you rather face ...
a) an unarmed populace
.. or ...
b) a minimally armed populace?
Conjecture, based on nothing.
You will not eliminate that danger with an assault weapons ban. At best you will make a small dent in it. Once a ban goes in, it will stay in forever -- I wouldn't expect any sunset clause this time around.
So the RW nuts will "fight the power" but leftists won't? I hope that isn't what you're saying. Or are you speaking to the unlikelihood of a tyrannical RW government? In that case, see Point 3.
How and where?
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)You keep blocking reasonable measures because they don't perfectly eliminate the threat.
Your perfect is the enemy of the greater good.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Your perfect is the enemy of the greater good.
You speak as though an AWB is without negative consequences. I strongly disagree. It places restrictions on law-abiding citizens. It loses voters. Its supposed positives are minimal and unproven.
The "greater good" would be better served through red flag laws and universal background checks, if both could be fairly and judiciously administered. Taking rights away from the many due to the actions of the few is a hard sell in a democracy.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Bazookas have no utility as a personal defense weapon. Nothing with exploding projectiles does.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)That's a bit weak, isn't it?
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)That's a bit weak, isn't it?
Common sense? Common, yes; sensible, no. We shouldn't make meaningless, misinformed, feel-good efforts that do nothing but feed the flames of division and political violence.
Is that any clearer?
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)on RW sites. The ones that say Obama was the most divisive President ever. The ones that threaten violence if any moves are made to ban any kind of gun. The same people who made the same threats the last time around and nothing came of it.
Do you believe Obama was a very divisive President by his policies?
The assault rifle ban worked. It was effective. It was the opposite of meaningless and misinformed.
But you are advocating capitulation and do-nothing because you are afraid of political violence.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Obama was far from "very divisive." Ultimately, he was a centrist. He spoke in favor of an AWB as part of the party platform, but it wasn't a sine qua non issue for him.
It didn't. It wasn't. There were mass shootings during the AWB. The same guns that were out there before it were still there during it, and the ones that were on the market during the AWB were only minimally different from their predecessors.
I'm not that straw man. I'm advocating only those measure that could be effective (judiciously applied red flag laws, universal background checks) and don't drive uncommitted voters into the arms of the Republicans. You'd be surprised how many people vote on that issue alone -- a regrettable but real thing.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,997 posts)Straw Man
(6,623 posts)Your "good" is unproven.
dlk
(11,552 posts)Weve been suckered and theres blood on the streets every day as a result. Other countries have figured it out. Yet, America continues to allow itself to be victimized by zealots. How strong are we really?
dlk
(11,552 posts)Weve been suckered and theres blood on the streets every day as a result. Other countries have figured it out. Yet, America continues to allow itself to be victimized by zealots. How strong are we really?
world wide wally
(21,740 posts)A: Shoot it
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)A: Shoot it
Just as obviously, there's a yawning gulf between the act of shooting a gun and the act of killing people. The former happens harmlessly millions of times for every time the latter is carried out.
Takket
(21,561 posts)Guns don't kill people; People kill people, guns just make it WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too easy
Caliman73
(11,730 posts)Whenever anyone tries to boil a problem down to one thing or tries to exclude factors while promoting other factors in a complex problem, they are going to fail.
I also agree that it is a cynical phrase, meant to avoid the issue of the availability of firearms, how they are promoted and perceived in American society, and who has access.
Here is the thing about the phrase. People can kill with just about anything. Something that sets us apart from other animals is our ability to adapt our environment to our needs and desires. We have created many things to enhance our abilities to survive on a planet that is 75% inhospitable to us being here. Shelter, clothing, readily available food, and weapons that increase our ability for defense and killing have all been invented to make humans one of the most impactful creatures on the planet.
Guns are used by people to kill other animals, including other humans. The gun does not function alone, but the gun was specifically made to project deadly force in a much easier manner than other tools. Given the choice, in a self defense scenario, I would rather have a gun than a stone, sling, bow & arrow, etc...
What has usually failed in human development is our ethical development compared to our technological development. We are still a "childish" species, but with the power to destroy ourselves.
It is a gun problem, but it is absolutely a people problem too. Both sides of the equation need to be addressed. Our society is broken. We need to address the availability of guns but we also have to address the factors that facilitate people deciding that harming others is a viable strategy to meet their needs/desires.
Straw Man
(6,623 posts)I have never seen the situation better expressed.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Loose gun laws ARE the problem.
Gun control IS the solution.
Mad_Machine76
(24,406 posts)that People kill MORE people WITH GUNS.