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Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:16 AM Mar 2023

The cynical insidiousness of "Guns don't kill people; People kill people."

Another day, another mass shooting in America.

I'm far from the first person to point out that by this point, we've become numb to these horrors. What 20 years ago might have dominated the headlines for nearly a month will most likely get a couple of days at most until we move onto the next thing.

But even so, there are certain constants that arise from these events. And to me, one of the most prominent of these constants has to be the talking points. The snippets that get repeated over and over and over again.

The "thoughts and prayers" reaction.

The reflexive response to the "thoughts and prayers" reaction.

The parsing of the Second Amendment every which way in order to determine what really was it that the drafters of the Constitution wanted, and why.

Talk about needing to arm everyone and everybody in order to protect against other people who are also armed.

Talk about needing to address mental health, and then when it comes time to address mental health, not addressing mental health.

The talking points--over traditional media, over social media, in day to day conversation--are as endless as this epidemic itself. But there's one in particular that grates me more than any other.

And it's a classic. An old standard of sorts, coming from none other than the fetid, diseased bowels of the NRA itself: "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."

It actually dates back farther than many people think, all the way back to 1911 when gun control legislation first became a subject of Congressional debate, and became more and more popularized throughout the 1960s, 70s and 80s as mass shooting events became less and less of an anomaly, until it became regularly spouted by the likes of Charlton Heston and Wayne La Pierre.

And while the endless repetition of the phrase has essentially reduced it to nothing more than a mindless cliché, I think it's important to stop for a moment and recognize how truly cynical a belief it is. How it perpetuates the idea of dark fatalism, of hopelessness, of inaction.

And if anything, yesterday's shooting truly brings home the utter frustration of purpose that phrase.

Here at DU--a well-trafficked political message board of a distinct Left-leaning bent--when we first hear the breaking news alerts about an active shooter or a mass shooting, before all the facts are known, there is a certain reflexive urge to immediately label the shooting as having a conservative, right-wing motive to it.

And to be fair to us, it's not merely a desire for political gamesmanship. Most people on the Right place a lot more value and attention on gun ownership than most people on the Left, so it only stands to reason that more people with immediate access to guns are going to be at least somewhat conservative in nature. In one sense, it's a Law of Numbers rationalization.

And no doubt there are plenty of examples where the perpetrators of these mass shootings in fact have been affiliated with far-right ideologies. Charleston. El Paso. Tree of Life. And numerous others in the list.

But even so, the majority of mass shooting have no clear ideological motivation, either from the Right or the Left.

Indeed, the motivation for many of these tragedies can remain a mystery for years after they take place, including some of the most horrific of them all. Think Las Vegas or Sandy Hook, for example.

Obviously, every one of these shootings has been committed by a person. No one has ever been serendipitously shot by a gun without a human actor somehow at play. So to Messrs. Heston and La Pierre, congratulations; you are not wrong on that one singular point of order.

However, people are people, and right now we have 8 billion of them living on this earth, each with their own very unique set of life circumstances and beliefs. And when you boil that 8 billion down to people who have committed the unspeakable act of taking a gun and trying to shoot as many people as they possibly can, those select few are just as varied a sort as the entire whole.

We've had white mass shooters, black mass shooters, Hispanic mass shooters, Middle Eastern mass shooters and Asian mass shooters. We've had mass shooters who are young and old, male and female, believers (of virtually all practiced religions) and atheists, and--yes--both people on the Right and Left of the political spectrum. We've had mass shooters with a long documented history of mental illness and mass shooters with nary a red flag at all.

It's been reported that the individual who committed the horrific mass shooting yesterday in Nashville was transgendered. Importantly, it's not clear yet whether that person's gender identity had anything to do with that person's motive for the shooting, but even so--all that means is that it's one more wrinkle, one more tiny tile in this sick mosaic that has gripped our country.

And what is the only common thread among them all, the very only one?

Guns.

They all used guns to commit their mass murders.

Guns--far from the only deadly weapon that exists, but also by far the most convenient and efficient tool for the ordinary person to kill and to kill easily.

And right now, we are living in a country with a very uneven perspective as to these particular killing tools. With that uneven perspective, we find ourselves with more of these guns than any other developed country on Earth.

And with more guns, it is only logical that there are more gun deaths. And more mass gun deaths at that.

We also live in a country where there exists a certain mindset by many that gun ownership is somehow central to civilized life. That without the ability to have easy--if not virtually unfettered--access to guns, we'd somehow melt into bloody lawlessness. And not just any guns, but guns with very little practicality for ordinary civilians.

No, I'm sorry. This cannot in any way be boiled down to a "people problem."

Our problems as people are as wide and varied as our species.

But this one problem, this problem right now and right here in the United States?

It's a gun problem.

And don't let anyone tell you it isn't.

68 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The cynical insidiousness of "Guns don't kill people; People kill people." (Original Post) Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 OP
So if it's a people problem, and people can't be trusted with badhair77 Mar 2023 #1
+1, uponit7771 Mar 2023 #6
Gun owners kill people. Sneederbunk Mar 2023 #2
Don't even have to own a gun Kaleva Mar 2023 #7
People kill people with guns... 50 Shades Of Blue Mar 2023 #3
"Guns don't kill people. But they sure help." Freddie Mar 2023 #4
Or, to put it another way: Disaffected Mar 2023 #8
+1 treestar Mar 2023 #61
Exactly Freddie Mar 2023 #65
There's an OP that argues white, Christian males are the problem Kaleva Mar 2023 #5
Well, it's not my OP. nt Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #9
I could check myself but did you respond to that OP? Kaleva Mar 2023 #10
Nope. Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #11
But you don't agree with the OP though.? Kaleva Mar 2023 #12
Do I have the time and energy to respond to every post on DU? Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #13
My response to that repuke half-truth The Unmitigated Gall Mar 2023 #14
So, Is It Your RobinA Mar 2023 #15
............. Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #17
We've always had guns. Why are mass shootings, esp in schools, more prevalent? SYFROYH Mar 2023 #16
The AR-15 has been on the civilian market since 1963. Straw Man Mar 2023 #18
And what is the figures for purchase and manufacturing of AR-15s in the 60s and 70s... Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #20
I don't have exact figures ... Straw Man Mar 2023 #23
Very well. Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #24
And ... Straw Man Mar 2023 #34
Yet AR-15s and similar high capacity semi-automatic rifles... Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #40
Numbers. Straw Man Mar 2023 #44
The answer to 'why' is AndyS Mar 2023 #25
yes - pure and simple its gun culture Locrian Mar 2023 #30
And when did this all start? Straw Man Mar 2023 #36
when did it start? Locrian Mar 2023 #41
The AR system really started taking off in the 80's... yagotme Mar 2023 #68
More people, way more guns, and... Tommy Carcetti Mar 2023 #19
Yes more guns not in more households SYFROYH Mar 2023 #32
It's reported today that Audrey Hale actually owned SEVEN assorted guns. Guns are not cheap. Her allegorical oracle Mar 2023 #33
That is not a lot of guns. Straw Man Mar 2023 #53
Mass shootings are far more common now Elessar Zappa Mar 2023 #21
The part and the whole. Straw Man Mar 2023 #22
They ARE more easier to acquire Mad_Machine76 Mar 2023 #62
I'll believe that shit, when someone with a knife wins a gun fight. mzmolly Mar 2023 #26
Need both gun & person for tragedy. Can't get rid of persons, so get rid of guns. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #27
Actually, you CAN ... Straw Man Mar 2023 #38
Too late. That's after the fact. Not a deterrent for "suicide by cop" massacres. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #39
NOTHING is a deterrent for suicide-by-cop massacres. Straw Man Mar 2023 #43
So, you are attacking your own point. Further, "mundane" weapons are LESS deadly. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #46
Umm ... no, I'm not. Straw Man Mar 2023 #47
Six shot revolver would require every shot perfect for six deaths. No way. Lesser weapons kill fewer Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #48
You are a aware, of course ... Straw Man Mar 2023 #50
I see the "tyranny" argument for AR-15s on RW sites. It is bogus there and bogus here. Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #55
Speaking of "bogus" ... Straw Man Mar 2023 #56
Only you post the straw man argument "eliminate". It does not have to "eliminate" to be good. Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #59
And you beg the question with "reasonable." Straw Man Mar 2023 #63
No bazookas infringes rights of law-abiding citizens & shouldn't be restricted, by your logic. nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #66
Wrong again. Straw Man Mar 2023 #67
So we shouldn't make common sense restrictions to save lives because it will "divide" the country Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #49
Whose "common sense"? Straw Man Mar 2023 #51
I read that talking point all the time Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #54
Calling something a "talking point" is a talking point. Straw Man Mar 2023 #57
"There were mass shootings during the AWB." Your perfect is the enemy of the good . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2023 #58
Nope. Sorry. Straw Man Mar 2023 #64
Tyranny disguised as freedom dlk Mar 2023 #28
Tyranny disguised as freedom dlk Mar 2023 #29
Q: If you put an AR-15 in someone's hands...What do they want to do with it? world wide wally Mar 2023 #31
Obviously. Straw Man Mar 2023 #37
i've always thought that phrase was too short......... Takket Mar 2023 #35
It is a very stupid phrase to be sure...because it is too simplistic. Caliman73 Mar 2023 #42
Exactly. Straw Man Mar 2023 #52
We shouldn't be loosely handing them these instruments of death. roamer65 Mar 2023 #45
It is far more accurate to say Mad_Machine76 Mar 2023 #60

badhair77

(4,216 posts)
1. So if it's a people problem, and people can't be trusted with
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:20 AM
Mar 2023

guns, then don’t let those people have guns. Control the gun availability.

Disaffected

(4,554 posts)
8. Or, to put it another way:
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:38 AM
Mar 2023

Guns don't kill people but they make it a lot faster and easier.

In any case, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is no more than a meaningless truism which adds nothing to the debate.

Freddie

(9,259 posts)
65. Exactly
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 05:17 PM
Mar 2023

A good friend’s teenage grandson committed suicide with his daddy’s gun. If he hadn’t found a gun would he still be here? Yet the gun-humpers absolutely dismiss suicide as a gun problem.

Kaleva

(36,294 posts)
12. But you don't agree with the OP though.?
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:48 AM
Mar 2023

The issue probably isn't important enough for you to respond to it

Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
13. Do I have the time and energy to respond to every post on DU?
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:50 AM
Mar 2023

I do not.

Hell, it took me near an hour to write this post. But that's my own fault as an English major.

The Unmitigated Gall

(3,803 posts)
14. My response to that repuke half-truth
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 11:51 AM
Mar 2023

Has always been “Yes, people DO kill people…far more easily with a gun!”

RobinA

(9,888 posts)
15. So, Is It Your
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:02 PM
Mar 2023

contention that with guns illegal, let's say, all guns, guns would become unobtainable and therefore cease to be a problem? Because I can't quite get there. Although I am not anywhere near "the fetid, diseased bowels of the NRA itself" I still ultimately come down to "Guns don't kill people. people kill people." While I certainly wouldn't stand in the way of ANY gun legislation, I just don't think that is the main problem. I think it's a cultural problem.

SYFROYH

(34,169 posts)
16. We've always had guns. Why are mass shootings, esp in schools, more prevalent?
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:04 PM
Mar 2023

They are not any easier to acquire?

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
18. The AR-15 has been on the civilian market since 1963.
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:17 PM
Mar 2023

That's 60 years. Contrary to the rhetoric, firearms are harder to legally acquire now than they were then. Yet this cancer of school shooting is metastasizing. So what has changed? Obviously something.

Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
20. And what is the figures for purchase and manufacturing of AR-15s in the 60s and 70s...
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:22 PM
Mar 2023

...versus now?

Because I can almost guarantee you it is higher now than it was back then. Perhaps even exponentially so.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
23. I don't have exact figures ...
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 01:03 PM
Mar 2023
Because I can almost guarantee you it is higher now than it was back then. Perhaps even exponentially so.

... but I concur with that assessment. The question is "Why?" A partial answer is that nothing makes people want something more than telling them that soon they won't be able to have it. Talk of bans drives sales of AR-style rifles like nothing else.

Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
24. Very well.
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 01:08 PM
Mar 2023

Then we should talk about schmestricting the schmales of SchmAr-Schm15s and other similar schmemi-schmautomatic schmifles.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
34. And ...
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 06:40 PM
Mar 2023

... schmestricting the schmales of a schmype of schmifle that schmaccounts for only a tiny schmercentage of schmun schmeaths is schmoductive how?

Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
40. Yet AR-15s and similar high capacity semi-automatic rifles...
Wed Mar 29, 2023, 11:39 AM
Mar 2023

...account for the majority of high fatality (10 +) mass shootings in the US in the past 20 years (12 out of 21 featured those weapons). And those have risen precipitously during that time period.

(There were 4 shootings with 10+ fatalities in the 00s, 13 in the 10s and 4 so far in the 20s. Compare that to only 2 in the 90s, 5 in the 80s, 1 in the 70s, 1 in the 60s and 0 in the 50s).*

So if a shooter is not just looking to kill someone, but looking for as high a body count as possible, it seems AR-15 type weapons are the favored choice.

Now, maybe you might be willing to waive off these mass shootings as somehow being mere anomalies, but I'm not. Clearly, we are looking at more and more of these events in recent years compared to the past. And the increasing availability and popularity of high capacity semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 has to be factor in all of this.

All of this seems to invite the question: What purpose does an AR-15 serve, other than a high casualty count? What legitimate reasons is there for it for civilian purposes? Does it simply feel good to shoot during target practice? What is it?



* Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
44. Numbers.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 12:20 AM
Mar 2023
Yet AR-15s and similar high capacity semi-automatic rifles...

...account for the majority of high fatality (10 +) mass shootings in the US in the past 20 years (12 out of 21 featured those weapons).

12 out of 21: barely a majority of incidents that are only a tiny fraction of the overall gun death toll in the US. Yet a ban on these weapons seems to be the sine qua non of gun control advocacy. How about compromises, like licensure and increased background checks for semi-automatic rifles?

Clearly, we are looking at more and more of these events in recent years compared to the past. And the increasing availability and popularity of high capacity semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15 has to be factor in all of this.

The real question is whether it is the causative factor. I maintain that it is not. Take these weapons away, and others will take their place. Then you will argue for those to be banned as well, and the root cause of the problem will remain undetermined and unaddressed.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
25. The answer to 'why' is
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 01:16 PM
Mar 2023
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-america-gun-culture-politics/

I'll distill it for ya. Profit from a gun that nobody wanted until it was promoted thru masculinity and machismo.

It was sold to you appealing to the weakest part of masculine human nature. And you just ate it up.

That's the editorial 'you' by the way.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
30. yes - pure and simple its gun culture
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 02:16 PM
Mar 2023

The one thing the US does REALLY WELL is marketing.
And they market the crap out of guns 24/7 on an ever increasing pace
We now have this gun culture that has merged their warped fantasy world with reality
So much that feedback loops exist the reinforce the "love of guns" in popular culture, fear of others, etc all contributing to the problem

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
36. And when did this all start?
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 06:56 PM
Mar 2023
The one thing the US does REALLY WELL is marketing.
And they market the crap out of guns 24/7 on an ever increasing pace
We now have this gun culture that has merged their warped fantasy world with reality
So much that feedback loops exist the reinforce the "love of guns" in popular culture, fear of others, etc all contributing to the problem

In re the AR-15, that is? It wasn't 1963, when if first hit the civilian market. Or 1973. Or 1983. Or 1993. The real spike happened after the sunsetting of the 1994 ban, which had created an artificially inflated demand for that particular weapon that no amount of macho marketing could hope to rival. Arguably, the ban also lost the Democrats control of Congress in the 1994 midterms, but that's another discussion.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
41. when did it start?
Wed Mar 29, 2023, 12:01 PM
Mar 2023

Pretty hard to boil it down to some 'event' date – nor is there "one" factor that has created this problem.

From the easier ability through various channels to market weapons through on-line, social media, media in general – to the closing of mental health facilities (thanks Raygun), to GOP culture wars, WP and other hate groups rise, stoking of fear (immigration), etc, etc, etc.

At the danger of being "anecdotal" (and not to isolate this as the "sole cause" or issue) - some observations on the general "culture" over the years:

Late 60’s thru 70’s – guns (handguns, semi-auto M16/AR types) were pretty much relegated to the “cops” or military. Petty much any “cop” TV show had revolvers, etc. Movies (James Bond) etc were more varied (the little PPK gun against the armies) or of course the war movies had semi or full automatic. I knew a few people who “had guns” but for the most part it was a pretty small group (yes, I know personal experience). Going to the “gun store” was not like it is now where it’s like a Costco or Walmart experience with nice salesmen (and women). It was going to the usually sketchy part of town where the “cops” bought their stuff. And the salespeople weren’t really that friendly unless you were a regular. Yeah you could buy a long gun from Sears. But not a handgun or AR style. You got your info from the magazines like “Guns and Ammo” right next to Hustler and Penthouse magazines.

Going into the 80s – 90s you get a lot of the “cool factor” going. SWAT, Sonny Crockett's gun on Miami Vice, the Terminator and other shoot em up movies. HEAT movie with the LA shoot outs, etc. Not as CAUSE but as an example of the “guns culture” growing. A feedback loop of guns are ok and cool. And boy you ‘better have one if you’re a good guy and the bad guys come’. Still no internet so less exposure and bonding on-line. You had to got to the weird “gun range” to shoot with the really sketchy guys and the cops.

Then the more modern times. Websites that catalog every gun used by every “hero” or villain on every TV or movie. Marketing on the “cool” or “manly” factor of having a gun. Or guns – the more the better. Accessories. Forum chats that people can “bond” on. Bigger and “nicer” gun stores that were much more friendly. More acceptance that its “just a tool” etc. etc. Modern gun ranges modeled after arcades that you can rent machine guns, etc.

Add in all the other factors: fear, manipulation for donations (GOP), mental health issues, social media exposure of the shooters, media exposure, fetization, etc, etc and here we are.

Note: not a complete picture of a vast problem…. And the growing “culture” of guns.
Again – not cause and effect. Feedback loops. And playing the statistics that the “average” person wont go shoot up a school, but the outliers might. And they have more access and more exposure to guns because of the above.

yagotme

(2,919 posts)
68. The AR system really started taking off in the 80's...
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 09:36 PM
Mar 2023

The National Matches at Camp Perry, OH, were primarily won by M1A's (civilian M-14's) prior to that. The M1A system had to be tuned, babied, and usually the best shooters had a spare rifle off the line, just in case. When the guys getting out of the military in the late 70's and early 80's started shooting in civilian life, they liked the system they trained with. Now, an AR is an accessory maker's delight. You can get an AR tuned, in short order, at home, without having to take it to a gunsmith, and it will usually shoot rings around a moderately tuned M1A. And it will STAY that way, with far less maintenance. (Shoots easier, too. Less recoil, more forgiving in position.)You can, with a few special tools, swap barrels out a home (barrels run 3-4,000 rds on a "match" rifle. They still shoot well at closer range, but won't hold muster at 600 yds). Now, throw in a ban or two, and watch the public run to the stores to get theirs before they're gone. Now, you have a popular rifle, that smaller statured shooters (think women, youth) can shoot well, with less weight and recoil, in high demand. The gun companies are going to give the public what it wants.

Tommy Carcetti

(43,174 posts)
19. More people, way more guns, and...
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:20 PM
Mar 2023

...definitely a far different attitude towards those guns by many of people who own them.

They're no longer considered primarily hunting tools or even a fail-safe means of home defense, but rather have been given some sort of greater societal import.

Thus the twisted impulse to buy multiple guns per household, increasing the likelihood that at least one of those guns could be used for illegal purposes.

Sandy Hook happened, 26 elementary school children and staff were murdered, and the first impulse by way too many people was to run out to the nearest gun store to buy AR-15s in case they were later prohibited.

SYFROYH

(34,169 posts)
32. Yes more guns not in more households
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 03:34 PM
Mar 2023

The data are interesting in that household with guns is relatively flat at around 40%

Other data says that 3% of gun owners own the vast majority of guns. But there aren’t usually more than 3 used by a shooter. It doesn’t matter if a mass shooter has 3 or 100 guns.

Yes attitudes are different about guns. They’ve become a political football.

and yes many people bought ARs after Sandy Hook because the first instinct of many were to ban AR rifles.

allegorical oracle

(2,357 posts)
33. It's reported today that Audrey Hale actually owned SEVEN assorted guns. Guns are not cheap. Her
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 03:50 PM
Mar 2023

parents reportedly denied knowing she owned any. The guns were purchased at five different gun shops. That's a problem. The usual person wouldn't have a need for that many gun purchases. Thought gun sales were tracked more efficiently. We need better red flag laws.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
53. That is not a lot of guns.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 03:42 PM
Mar 2023

I compete in four different target sports: trap (single-shot shotgun), sporting clays (repeating shotgun), bullseye (.22 pistol), and sporter rifle (.22 rifle). One main gun and one spare for each means eight guns in total just to cover competition uses. Add guns for hunting and self-defense and you easily get to a dozen or more.

The bottom line is that it only takes one gun to kill someone. What would counting and tracking have done? I agree that we need red flag laws, with judicial oversight. But that should kick in for any and all purchases and possession: search the home and take what's there, and place that person on a "cannot buy" list that goes nationwide. That's the only way it would work.

Elessar Zappa

(13,964 posts)
21. Mass shootings are far more common now
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:25 PM
Mar 2023

and I don’t know the reason. But violence by gun isn’t new at all in this country. In fact, the overall gun violence rate is lower now than it was 30 years ago. It’s a national sickness and the only possible solution, barring huge cultural change, is banning certain types of weapons and magazines.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
22. The part and the whole.
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 12:52 PM
Mar 2023

Mass shootings are far more common now
[...]
In fact, the overall gun violence rate is lower now than it was 30 years ago. It’s a national sickness and the only possible solution, barring huge cultural change, is banning certain types of weapons and magazines.

The "certain types of weapons and magazines" that you're asking to ban are those that are used in mass shootings, and banning them would have little effect on the overall death toll. Prohibition is always easier than "huge cultural change," but is minimally effective, as seen in the "War on Drugs."

Mad_Machine76

(24,406 posts)
62. They ARE more easier to acquire
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:55 PM
Mar 2023

and increasingly are openly allowed in more environments than before.

mzmolly

(50,985 posts)
26. I'll believe that shit, when someone with a knife wins a gun fight.
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 01:22 PM
Mar 2023

You don't see the nutters who parrot that 'defend' themselves with anything but - a gun.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
38. Actually, you CAN ...
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 08:52 PM
Mar 2023

... get rid of persons. Persons who kill people, that is. You can put them to death, or if that's too distasteful, remove them from society for the rest of their natural lives.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
43. NOTHING is a deterrent for suicide-by-cop massacres.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 12:12 AM
Mar 2023

Repeat: nothing. AW bans will merely lead to them to use more mundane but still deadly weapons.

Our entire legal system is based on punishment after the fact.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
47. Umm ... no, I'm not.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 06:10 AM
Mar 2023

I'm not the one who's asking for new laws that will deepen the political divide in this country and will save few if any lives. Forcing suicidal killers to change weapons is a whack-a-mole activity and a waste of time and political capital.

The Nashville school shooter killed six people. That could have been done with a cowboy revolver. Any death is tragic. Your comparative calculus of deadliness is a dead end, practically and morally. Moral outrage justifies demands for an solution; it doesn't justify the insistence that there is only one valid solution.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,997 posts)
48. Six shot revolver would require every shot perfect for six deaths. No way. Lesser weapons kill fewer
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 06:21 AM
Mar 2023

Moral dead end to put limits on automatic weapons? Nonsense. It is practical and moral to limit them.

The Nashville shooter shot the lock off, that's one shot, five left. The way automatic weapons with large magazines are so effective at killing people is that you can hit someone with three shots instead of trying to pick each person off with a single carefully aimed shot. In the middle of a hectic scene where people might be throwing things at you like desks and fire extinguishers. You may think you are that good of a shot, but mass shooters do not have such a high opinion of their capabilities and facts bear that out.

You suggest "getting rid of persons" as an approach and then you say it won't work. So you make a point and then attack your own point.

You are aptly named "Straw Man".

You may be talking about "only one valid solution", but I think you are talking to yourself as everyone else is suggesting multiple solutions. Yet another straw man argument.


Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
50. You are a aware, of course ...
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 03:03 PM
Mar 2023

... that revolvers can be reloaded, right? And that more than one weapon can be carried? All that it takes is for the shooter to exercise a modicum of creative thinking and initiative. At best your proposed bans would make their gruesome task a little bit harder. Is that a worthwhile goal?

Obviously semi-automatic weapons are more lethal, but to spend all your energy on reducing rather than eliminating the death toll is misguided. There are valid reasons for citizens to own semi-automatic weapons. Self-defense is one. And how would your feel about the "resisting tyranny" argument if we had a Handmaid's Tale style reactionary government deeply entrenched in Washington?

You suggest "getting rid of persons" as an approach and then you say it won't work. So you make a point and then attack your own point.

You are aptly named "Straw Man".

Is said it won't work perfectly -- in other words, it might go a along way toward reducing the bulk of crime-related gun death, but it will not eliminate the suicide-by-cop scenario because nothing will -- certainly not an assault-weapons ban.

I have the feeling you don't know what a straw-man argument is.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,997 posts)
55. I see the "tyranny" argument for AR-15s on RW sites. It is bogus there and bogus here.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:18 PM
Mar 2023

It is bogus.

1) There are not enough guns to blunt the US Armed Forces if it comes to that.

2) Few would ever do anything.

3) The present danger that is massacring school children and warping the lives of millions of others is a bigger possibility (since it is a certainty) than the possibility of a tyrannical government (a real danger but not above 50%, for example).

4) There is a much higher chance of an RW nut reaction to a duly elected lawful government than any realistic chance of armed overthrow of Handmaid tyranny by leftists.

5) Tyranny gets overthrown in places without the public using AR-15s.

The "tyranny" argument is bogus and an RW talking point.


"My prediction is it will be a gruesome massacre. Why? Because one side in this conflict has 8 Trillion bullets & the other side doesn’t know which bathroom to use."
7 posted on 2017-08-06, by fivecatsandadog (DRAIN THE SWAMP. BUILD THE WALL. EFF the rogue judges, Obama and the MSM.)
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3574939/posts?page=7#7

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
56. Speaking of "bogus" ...
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:36 PM
Mar 2023

... let's look at your suppositions:

1) There are not enough guns to blunt the US Armed Forces if it comes to that.

If you were heading a tyrannical government, would you rather face ...
a) an unarmed populace
.. or ...
b) a minimally armed populace?

2) Few would ever do anything.

Conjecture, based on nothing.

3) The present danger that is massacring school children and warping the lives of millions of others is a bigger possibility (since it is a certainty) than the possibility of a tyrannical government (a real danger but not above 50%, for example).

You will not eliminate that danger with an assault weapons ban. At best you will make a small dent in it. Once a ban goes in, it will stay in forever -- I wouldn't expect any sunset clause this time around.

4) There is a much higher chance of an RW nut reaction to a duly elected lawful government than any realistic chance of armed overthrow of Handmaid tyranny by leftists.

So the RW nuts will "fight the power" but leftists won't? I hope that isn't what you're saying. Or are you speaking to the unlikelihood of a tyrannical RW government? In that case, see Point 3.

5) Tyranny gets overthrown in places without the public using AR-15s.

How and where?

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,997 posts)
59. Only you post the straw man argument "eliminate". It does not have to "eliminate" to be good.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:51 PM
Mar 2023

You keep blocking reasonable measures because they don't perfectly eliminate the threat.

Your perfect is the enemy of the greater good.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
63. And you beg the question with "reasonable."
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:57 PM
Mar 2023
You keep blocking reasonable measures because they don't perfectly eliminate the threat.

Your perfect is the enemy of the greater good.

You speak as though an AWB is without negative consequences. I strongly disagree. It places restrictions on law-abiding citizens. It loses voters. Its supposed positives are minimal and unproven.

The "greater good" would be better served through red flag laws and universal background checks, if both could be fairly and judiciously administered. Taking rights away from the many due to the actions of the few is a hard sell in a democracy.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
67. Wrong again.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 07:23 PM
Mar 2023

Bazookas have no utility as a personal defense weapon. Nothing with exploding projectiles does.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,997 posts)
49. So we shouldn't make common sense restrictions to save lives because it will "divide" the country
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 06:23 AM
Mar 2023

That's a bit weak, isn't it?



Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
51. Whose "common sense"?
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 03:31 PM
Mar 2023
So we shouldn't make common sense restrictions to save lives because it will "divide" the country

That's a bit weak, isn't it?

Common sense? Common, yes; sensible, no. We shouldn't make meaningless, misinformed, feel-good efforts that do nothing but feed the flames of division and political violence.

Is that any clearer?

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,997 posts)
54. I read that talking point all the time
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:03 PM
Mar 2023

on RW sites. The ones that say Obama was the most divisive President ever. The ones that threaten violence if any moves are made to ban any kind of gun. The same people who made the same threats the last time around and nothing came of it.

Do you believe Obama was a very divisive President by his policies?

We shouldn't make meaningless, misinformed, feel-good efforts that do nothing but feed the flames of division and political violence.


The assault rifle ban worked. It was effective. It was the opposite of meaningless and misinformed.

But you are advocating capitulation and do-nothing because you are afraid of political violence.

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
57. Calling something a "talking point" is a talking point.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 04:42 PM
Mar 2023

Obama was far from "very divisive." Ultimately, he was a centrist. He spoke in favor of an AWB as part of the party platform, but it wasn't a sine qua non issue for him.

The assault rifle ban worked. It was effective. It was the opposite of meaningless and misinformed.

It didn't. It wasn't. There were mass shootings during the AWB. The same guns that were out there before it were still there during it, and the ones that were on the market during the AWB were only minimally different from their predecessors.

But you are advocating capitulation and do-nothing because you are afraid of political violence.

I'm not that straw man. I'm advocating only those measure that could be effective (judiciously applied red flag laws, universal background checks) and don't drive uncommitted voters into the arms of the Republicans. You'd be surprised how many people vote on that issue alone -- a regrettable but real thing.

dlk

(11,552 posts)
28. Tyranny disguised as freedom
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 02:00 PM
Mar 2023

We’ve been suckered and there’s blood on the streets every day as a result. Other countries have figured it out. Yet, America continues to allow itself to be victimized by zealots. How strong are we really?

dlk

(11,552 posts)
29. Tyranny disguised as freedom
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 02:02 PM
Mar 2023

We’ve been suckered and there’s blood on the streets every day as a result. Other countries have figured it out. Yet, America continues to allow itself to be victimized by zealots. How strong are we really?

Straw Man

(6,623 posts)
37. Obviously.
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 07:28 PM
Mar 2023
Q: If you put an AR-15 in someone's hands...What do they want to do with it?

A: Shoot it

Just as obviously, there's a yawning gulf between the act of shooting a gun and the act of killing people. The former happens harmlessly millions of times for every time the latter is carried out.

Takket

(21,561 posts)
35. i've always thought that phrase was too short.........
Tue Mar 28, 2023, 06:44 PM
Mar 2023

Guns don't kill people; People kill people, guns just make it WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too easy

Caliman73

(11,730 posts)
42. It is a very stupid phrase to be sure...because it is too simplistic.
Wed Mar 29, 2023, 12:13 PM
Mar 2023

Whenever anyone tries to boil a problem down to one thing or tries to exclude factors while promoting other factors in a complex problem, they are going to fail.

I also agree that it is a cynical phrase, meant to avoid the issue of the availability of firearms, how they are promoted and perceived in American society, and who has access.

Here is the thing about the phrase. People can kill with just about anything. Something that sets us apart from other animals is our ability to adapt our environment to our needs and desires. We have created many things to enhance our abilities to survive on a planet that is 75% inhospitable to us being here. Shelter, clothing, readily available food, and weapons that increase our ability for defense and killing have all been invented to make humans one of the most impactful creatures on the planet.

Guns are used by people to kill other animals, including other humans. The gun does not function alone, but the gun was specifically made to project deadly force in a much easier manner than other tools. Given the choice, in a self defense scenario, I would rather have a gun than a stone, sling, bow & arrow, etc...

What has usually failed in human development is our ethical development compared to our technological development. We are still a "childish" species, but with the power to destroy ourselves.

It is a gun problem, but it is absolutely a people problem too. Both sides of the equation need to be addressed. Our society is broken. We need to address the availability of guns but we also have to address the factors that facilitate people deciding that harming others is a viable strategy to meet their needs/desires.

roamer65

(36,745 posts)
45. We shouldn't be loosely handing them these instruments of death.
Thu Mar 30, 2023, 12:57 AM
Mar 2023

Loose gun laws ARE the problem.

Gun control IS the solution.

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