Professor Tribe has moved to the right position on the 14th Amendment/Debt Ceiling

[grantcart]

That position being the one that I have bored anyone who would listen for the last 10 years. On Lawrence O'Donnell he explained how he has changed his position.

After the Civil War the 14th Amendment was passed to enforce equal protection of law to all citizens, clarify issues of citizenship and other issues. One of the side issues brought into the Amendment passed in 1868 is an affirmation of public debt as a Constitutional principle.

Why did they include a statement on public debt?

After the Civil War the Confederate States no longer existed and the European banks that had extended credit to them had no recourse. Europe worried that the US government would also walk away from its debt so the principle of US debt was enshrined into the Constitution.

It means that if the US ever defaulted on its debt that the Creditors could go to Court to enforce payment of debt.

As the Executive power has grown the Congress started the "debt ceiling" as a way to get another "bite of the apple" to renegotiate appropriations already signed into law.

The 14th Amendment guarantees public debt and I hope that President Biden will take the steps to challenge it at the Supreme Court and return to "normal order of business" which existed prior to 1939 when Congress invented this unconstitutional tool to "enhance" its position in the government system.

[Mme. Defarge]

1. He makes a very compelling case.

[Joinfortmill]

2. Time to end this madness.

[BComplex]

3. I agree with Tribe!

[Cha]

4. Sigh.. TY. I hope the SCOTUS

would Not side with the magats who want to Destroy our Economy and our country while Pres Biden is POTUS.

[WestMichRad]

5. I like how Prof. Tribe explained his rationale

Said he previously thought the key question was whether the President has the power to spend the money for bills passed by Congress. Rather, now he sees the key question as being whether the President has the DUTY to pay our bills according to legislation the Congress has already passed. If he was to attempt to not pay for some things already appropriated, he would be arbitrarily choosing for some appropriations over others. He lacks the authority to do that.

He should tell McCarthy and the Repukes if they want to cut spending, they have the power to pass bills authorizing which cuts to make.

[Cha]

6. TY.. I was about to ask the OP

what made Prof Tribe change his mind.

Still not exactly sure but I'm getting closer. And Section 4 of the 14th Amendment states he Does have the Duty to Do That?

🤞🤷‍♀️🤞🤷‍♀️

[grantcart]

8. I look at it from a different point of view.

If a creditor was not paid due to a default I believe that the creditor could force the issue suing and compelling the Supreme Court to demand payment. The whole point of the 14th Amendment was to raise the issue to a Constitutional principle.

We are the only Republic that guarantees payment of debt as a Constitutional principle. Unlike every other government if our Legislature and Executive Branch fail to do the right thing Creditors could appeal, and I believe that they would be successful, to the Supreme Court for payment. It is one of the main reasons that our currency has become the default currency for international trade, it has a Constitutional guarantee.

[Cha]

14. TY, grant.

[NJCher]

7. it sounds to me like the criminals in the House

are asking Biden to be a criminal just like them. I liked how Tribe put it: he said they want him to "stiff" certain constituents.

As Tribe pointed out, Biden does not have a line item veto to do what they want him to do--cut Medicare for seniors, for example.

But the Constitution does make it mandatory for him to make sure the debt is paid.

Tribe has argued 36 cases before the Supreme Court; he has also criticized this SC.

[Celerity]

16. It isn't just the House, the Senate now has a filibuster proof bloc of 43 to block any bill Schumer

puts up dealing with debt ceiling. and Manchin and Sinema, even if/when Feinstein comes back, will not do away with the filibuster. We are 1 vote short of removing the filibuster in a one-off move for the debt ceiling. Maybe more if Tester and perhaps Feinstein (she has waffled back and forth and played semantic games in the past on the filibuster) say no go as well (and there may be other hidden Dems against binning it as well. even for a one-off).

[NJCher]

25. Or so they think

That was announced before Tribe’s thoughts on the matter were made public.

It’s a whole new ballgame now.

[Celerity]

27. hopefully it never comes to that, but until I see Biden officially announce he will go the 14th

Amendment route IF need be, nothing is for sure, all due respect to Prof. Tribe.

14th Amendment talk on debt limit viewed with extreme caution by Team Biden

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/3994500-14th-amendment-talk-on-debt-limit-viewed-with-extreme-caution-by-team-biden/

President Biden and his team are approaching the prospect of a debt ceiling escape hatch that hinges on the 14th Amendment with extreme caution ahead of a pivotal meeting with congressional leaders at the White House on Tuesday. Some officials have openly voiced concerns about the legal standing of using the 14th Amendment to solve the debt crisis and the potential financial ripple effects of going that route. There is also a desire to avoid undercutting talks with lawmakers on either a short- or long-term deal on the debt ceiling by vowing to go around Congress.

While not entirely ruling it out, Biden and other senior officials are hardly embracing the idea, which revolves around language in the 14th Amendment that says the public debt “shall not be questioned.” The idea of using that language to allow Biden to unilaterally continue to issue debt has reportedly been floated privately within the administration.

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen on Sunday, however, said using the 14th Amendment would trigger a constitutional crisis. She argued lawmakers should not let it get to that point. “There is no way to protect our financial system and our economy other than Congress doing its job and raising the debt ceiling and enabling us to pay our bills,” Yellen said on ABC. “And we should not get to the point where we need to consider whether the president can go on issuing debt. This would be a constitutional crisis.” Yellen would not explicitly say the idea was not being considered but described it as “one of the not good options” if Congress fails to act.

Biden was asked in an MSNBC interview last Friday about using the 14th Amendment and said, “I’ve not gotten there yet.” The president has previously expressed opposition to changes to the traditional debt ceiling process. Asked last October about abolishing the debt ceiling entirely, Biden called the idea “irresponsible.”

snip

[NJCher]

28. Well, of course

This is entirely what one should expect from Biden. This is his m.o. and I totally respect him for it. This is how he plays these f#*kers.

[Celerity]

29. Let me posit a scenario and see what you think about it. Let's say Biden does go the 14th Amendment

route (as the Rethugs do not back down).

IF this happens and IF the SCOTUS declares it an unconstitutional act by Biden, what should he do?

1. Ignore the Court?

or

2. Go along with it, try to change the Rethugs' minds, but if they refuse, then he stands aside and allows the burning of the dollar and the nation to a significant degree?


We are in truly dangerous times.

[NJCher]

30. jmho, but

The question assumes quite a few things and which if the SC decides it doesn't want to be bothered, would make it moot.

I don't think they will hear it because it's basically a silly idea. They will reject it, if it comes to that.

Remember who thought this stupid idea up. Do you think the SC can be bothered with the foists of marginal "strategists" like MTG?

I don't.

[grantcart]

31. I don't see Biden acting without going to the court first

I also expect that hundreds of suits being launched by creditors compelling payment under the 14th Amendment to honor their loans.

I can't see the Court telling the Japanese, for example, that their $1 Trillion loans are not protected by the Constitution and any interest payments due must be paid.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

9. This SCOTUS?

How would they vote?

[SunSeeker]

13. However Harlan Crow tells his 6 to vote.

[Phoenix61]

15. I disagree, Crow only has one.

I think Leo Leonard’s three trump Crow’s one.

[SunSeeker]

17. Leonard Leo represents billionaires like Harlan Crow. Crow bipassed the middleman with Thomas.

They all want the same thing. No taxes and take the US back to the 1920s.

[Phoenix61]

18. True, he opted for the direct payment plan. nt

[NJCher]

24. None of these greedy f&#*ks

Want to see their money go up in smoke, which could very well happen if the U.S. government defaults.

They will see this as a wildly unpredictable ride, one which they will ditch.

It is a very stupid plan by very stupid people. These guys like LL and Crow may be moral degenerates but they’re not stupid.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

33. good points. n/t

[grantcart]

26. If the Largest holder of US Debt, the Japanese, sued to have

Interest paid, as promised in the 14th Amendment, I cannot imagine a single vote against it.

Actually defaulting on government debt would have catastrophic repercussions. Secondly it would cost the US Government hundreds of billions in extra interest payments. Finally it would suck cash out of the system wrecking housing, car manufacturing and everything depending on consumer borrowing

[SleeplessinSoCal]

34. Very important point.

I just fear the ideology is too strong to cope with reality. And we are the victims.

[grantcart]

35. The SC doesn't look at just ideological (or legal issues)

The overriding issue that united all Justices is in not opening a Pandora's box that generates dozens or hundreds of new lawsuits. My guess is that picking which creditor gets paid and which gets stiffed is not something they want to do 12 hours a day.

[IbogaProject]

10. GOP way to deflect from themselves

They passed the first one in 1917 to attempt to constrain war spending and post war reconstruction aid. Then they made it more complete in 1939 to limit FDR.

[Upthevibe]

11. grantcart.....

I was VERY comforted after seeing him on Lawrence O'Donnell tonight....

[Silent3]

12. The standing issue alone will frustrate anyone who tries to sue Biden or the Treasury...

...for not abiding by the debt ceiling.

And that'll be a popular cause to rally behind... "I insist that the court ravage the US and world economy, as the Founding Fathers intended!"

[Rhiannon12866]

19. Here's the video of Laurence Tribe on with Lawrence O'Donnell, for those who missed it:

Laurence Tribe: President's 'duty' is to pay debts despite GOP giving him an 'impossible choice - The Last Word - MSNBC
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017826895

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell is joined by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe who explains what the president’s constitutional duties are despite the demands from House Republicans on the debt ceiling. - Aired on 05/08/2023.

[NJCher]

20. I'll probably watch this again

If you haven’t seen it, it’s well worth the time.

Thank you, Rhiannon; you do so much to facilitate the discussions around here.

[Rhiannon12866]

22. Thanks! I need to watch it again, too!

And this was the video I was waiting for tonight, Lawrence O'Donnell has the best guests, but Professor Tribe is in a league all is own...

[grantcart]

21. Tks

[Rhiannon12866]

23. You're more than welcome, thanks for your great explanatory OP

[Kennah]

32. Professor Tribe on Lawrence O'Donnell

It's an all or nothing choice. Pay everything or pay nothing.