Something just occured to me. I don't think you can tell if a person has sex reassignment surgery

[Maraya1969]

Plus they get their birth certificate changed. So how is Death Santis going to discriminate against this group?

[calguy]

1. He already is.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. If a law requires original birth certificates, that's the law. DeSantis will use tyrannical

De Saintless will use tyrannical measures, like sussing out which doctors provide (there's that word) medical services for transgender and then issue subpoenas for medical records to find who is being helped and where they live peacefully and quietly. He will then check to see if current status matches original birth certificates.

If the law is unconstitutional Ronnie GoGo Boots won't care. He will have harvested the political campaign donations.

[Maraya1969]

7. I just watched one of those 90 day fiance shows and the guy was marrying a woman from Columbia.

He had to go back home to get his birth certificate changed (He was trans)

I think parents of babies born with ambiguous genitalia are going to be pissed at this because now I hear they are waiting until the baby shows them what sex they are before putting it on the birth certificate.

So you have another group of people that will be crying foul

[Mariana]

12. Even if he could use birth records to compare them with current status

he could only do it for people who were born in Florida. Other states aren't going to hand their birth records over to the state of Florida for this purpose or for any other.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

13. So most are safe? No. DeathSentence will use other means. . . . nt

[Mariana]

16. No, they are definitely not safe.

I just don't think comparing birth records with current records will be widely used to determine who is trans and who isn't.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Tennessee is already requiring it

https://www.justia.com/lgbtq/transgender-rights/identification-documents/

The only state to prohibit the correction of gender on transgender individuals' birth certificates by statute is Tennessee, although some other states also prohibit these corrections through case law or agency policy.

[Mariana]

22. Requiring what, exactly?

Tennesse prohibits correcting birth records. That's not the same thing as using birth records to discover which people are trans.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. 1) Example for RDS to follow, 2) Cooperative state, 3) as I already wrote

DeSaintless has other means. He seems to be willing to devote police force resources to non-existent voter fraud, so transgender police are the obvious next step.

He already has a private militia with Florida state funds.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. Lots of people believe they can tell. What this does is empowers them to weaponize the

police against people they believe aren't performing gender correctly.

[Withywindle]

33. + 100 This is already happening more and more

Cis women who don't fit a very narrow range of "feminine" traits are being accused of being trans and harassed out of bathrooms, etc. There are whole conspiracy-theory "transvestigators" who insist they can always tell (NO THEY FUCKING CAN'T). There are whole social media accounts devoted to "exposing" celebrities they think are trans based on super flimsy "evidence" of physical traits. Which of course is weaponized against women of color the most...it's a cesspit of transphobia and misogyny and racism.

What they want is the right to demand that people submit to sexual assault (genital checks) at their command.

To be clear: I am NOT saying this is worse when it happens to cis people than to trans people. No one should endure this. Trans people are the wedge being used to "justify" gender and body policing on a horrific level, and maybe some cis people won't realize it until it happens to them.

[radius777]

36. +1. And it should be noted that even 'feminine' cis women

can be viewed with suspicion if they are tall. I know of one such woman (who is attractive by conventional standards) who had someone recently pull on her hair, claiming it must be a wig (it's not, she's about 6ft tall and happens to have very long hair) and that she must be a man.

[Ilsa]

42. I have a cousin once removed who about 5'11". Both of her parents

are tall. She identifies as female, afaik, and thankfully, she has feminine characteristics, and a more gynecoid pelvis vs anthropoid, android, or platypelloid.Her shoulders are not very broad, either.

[zuul]

4. There are probably plenty of hateful people

who will follow a person they know (who is trans) for the sole purpose of reporting them when they have to use a public restroom.

[Maraya1969]

9. But you still can't tell. The operation can transform as clitorus into a penis and also remove a

penis and add breasts

Unless you go in looking for stiches which are probably hid very well you can't tell.

[zuul]

14. My point is it doesn't matter if a stranger can tell if a person is trans.

Obviously they can't.

But there will be some people who will report their acquaintances, who they know to be trans, just because they are hateful bigots.

It must be a frightening time to be trans.

[Maraya1969]

15. Well I am not trans but if I was and someone did that to me I would say the same thing about them

Let them prove that they aren't.

[Ms. Toad]

24. Gender confirmation surgery is very expensive, and often not covered by insurance.

Not all trans individuals have gender confirmation surgery, and even among those who do have some - a much smaller portion have "bottom" surgery.

Surgery is not the defining moment in identifying as a woman/man.

And many of my masculine appearing cis female friends are regularly harassed for using the wrong bathroom - even though they were assigned female at birth.

So the reality of birth certificate gender and genital appearance matching is not the entire issue. In large part the issue is gender transgression - women who do not appear feminine enough; men who do not appear masculine enough.

[meadowlander]

35. The state of surgical technology, especially for FTM is not that great.

Generally they take a roll of skin off the whole of your forearm or thigh to create a penis so you would still have obvious scars that anyone who knew what they were looking for could tell.

And it's generally not a fully functioning penis, is extremely invasive (often needing several rounds of corrective surgery) and the surgery costs tens of thousands of dollars and isn't covered by insurance so most trans people can't afford it even if they want it.

Some trans people are waiting on better technology but that doesn't make them not trans.

[Mad_Machine76]

41. It seems fairly good for Trans women

But then again it’s certainly easier to “remove” or alter something that already exists than to “add” something that doesn’t. I’ve got a consult scheduled for July

[meadowlander]

43. Happy to swap

But seriously, I think a lot of the 3D printing organ technology is really promising and suspect in the next 10 years or so what's possible is going to take a quantum leap.

[Mad_Machine76]

45. I agree.

And I would swap in a heartbeat with a Trans man

[Ocelot II]

5. Much of the discrimination is occurring in schools, where a child

may have started school as their birth gender but transitioned at some point, so that would be known through school records even if they changed schools. As for knowing anything about the gender of someone using a bathroom, that's a different matter, and no, you can't tell. Someone might think a woman "looks" masculine, for example, but that doesn't prove she's trans since women come in many shapes and sizes and facial structures, and certainly wouldn't justify even asking, let alone demanding proof of gender. Would they want to see the person's genitals? Only a medical expert could conclusively identify reassignment surgery. Would they want a DNA test? It's outrageous. I assume everyone I see in a public women's restroom is a woman; if a trans woman is there I consider her to be just as much a woman and that she's there for the same reason I am, which is to pee. The whole idea is not so much to identify trans people as to scare them and especially their parents into not transitioning at all; or if they do, to get out of the state so they aren't offending Republicans.

[allegorical oracle]

37. DeSatan's like TFG. They get off on intimidation and fear to feel powerful. Weak scum. nt

[GoodRaisin]

44. Definition of a bully.

[Initech]

6. The MAGA fuckheads will find a way.

[meadowlander]

8. It depends on how invasive the state is prepared to be

but most people who get gender affirming surgery have tell-tale scars from it (at least FTM which I'm more familiar with than MTF).

But if you're just looking at a fully clothed person who has had hormone therapy, many FTM people you can't really tell.

The trick is legally transitioning in a hostile state system that doesn't agree to change your driver's license, etc.

[Ms. Toad]

25. Among my friends,

There is only one FTM friend I might identify as trans. The others (perhaps a half-dozen) can easily pass, at least with a shirt on. My friend who was allowed to go through puberty as a male doesn't even have "top" scars to give anyone a clue. Among my MTF friends the ability to be "read" as female is much lower.

I have as many cis female friends who get harassed when they use the women's bathroom because their appearance is too masculine as I have trans female friends who are harassed.

Both birth certificates and driver's licenses are an issue - and since people move around you often have to deal with two different state's laws.

[Mad_Machine76]

10. You really can't much tell on the surface

but that doesn't mean that somebody can't try to challenge you under this new law.

[lame54]

11. The stall peepers...

They're a volunteer group keeping an eye on us

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Here's how North Carolina did it in 2016

[Retrograde]

18. Maybe sometimes, kinda

and you're just as likely to be wrong. Some -not all - people who transition later in life may retain some characteristics such as a deep voice, broad shoulders, or a tendency to carry extra fat in certain patterns. But a lot of these are within the broad definition of "normal" for the sex they present as. OTOH, I knew one trans woman for a decade before she mentioned that she was trans, and another I know is trans only because I knew her before she transitioned. So the only way to know for sure is to ask the person, and IMHO that's a rude and very personal thing to ask on first meeting them.

[BlackSkimmer]

20. Not all have the reassignment surgery.

And some have facial surgery or Adam's apple shaving, but do not have any genital surgery.

So yes, it is possible to tell sometimes.

I knew trans folk when I lived in the Keys, before it was ever getting the attention it is now. There are just some things that surgery or hormones cannot alter.

[Lithos]

21. Transitioning is more than top or bottom surgery and hormones

Some people may not do top/bottom surgery because of costs - so the best they can do might be hormones.

In addition, transition requires a lot of retraining of behaviors - speaking, walking, etc.

And other surgeries might be involved - I know of several trans-women who have needed feminization surgery to their faces.

Depending on where people are with their transition, it may indeed be possible to be outed.

And I'm sure I have missed things. All I know is that my friends who have transitioned are among the bravest of people I've met given the slings and arrows they have to endure each and every day just to be able to live their life as who they are.

L-

[BlackSkimmer]

30. Not to mention, I noticed that at my local grocery they've started putting pronouns next to the

name on the name badges. I have to admit, I was surprised given what a red area this is, but apparently they've had no problems as yet.

If someone was really looking to "out" someone, no doubt that'd be something they'd be looking for.

[Hekate]

26. Birth certificates are also a social construct and can be punitive. When I was a kid it was common ...

… to note the marital status of the mother and stamp the baby’s birth certificate “Illegitimate” if its mother was not married. Perpetual shame on mother and child. Times changed for the better, and that’s not done any more afaik.

However, the MAGA-GOP wants to turn back the clock about a century in all social respects, and considering what else they’re doing, I would not put it past them to plan to make a notation on the birth cert, with a line through the original info (name, gender) leaving it clearly legible, and the new info added alongside. You know, so everyone could see that forever.

[ga_girl]

29. Amended birth certificate in Georgia

I have changed my legal name from male to female in Georgia. I've also amended my Georgia birth certificate to have my current name. I have not changed gender / sex on my BC.

In Georgia, the amended birth certificate has the original and current names displayed. I would assume this would also apply to gender / sex. So basically that information will follow me for life.

As to gender classification, Georgia law requires a physician to attest that a "surgery" has been completed in order to change gender / sex. Nothing in Georgia law defines "surgery" as to procedures required.

Interestingly, current Florida law is basically the same as Georgia.

https://www.floridanamechange.org/step-5---birth-certificate-gender.html

A statement that the patient has had appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to the new gender (specify male or female)

A statement that he/she has either treated the individual in relation to the individual's change in gender or has reviewed and evaluated the medical history of the individual in relation to the individual's change in gender

[Bucky]

27. This is McCarthyism redux. You don't have to "tell." You just need to scare everyone into conformity

The point isn't ever to achieve particular Republican policy changes. It's to win power and then distribute the graft

[Ocelot II]

32. I think that's exactly right. Make people afraid of being forced to reveal

personal information, afraid of being outed in situations where it could cause them harm, afraid of being unable to obtain medical care they need, afraid they might even be harassed in a bathroom. Make innocent people's lives miserable because authoritarians and fascist power freaks always have to have scapegoats, preferably groups who can easily be "othered" and are too numerically small to fight back.

[Ziggysmom]

28. Some states match to Social Security records to allow you a drivers license or ID. My WI does.

Driver Records Matched with
Social Security Records
Wisconsin electronically compares the name, date
of birth, gender and Social Security Number (SSN) of licensed drivers or identification card holders with records of the Social Security Administration (SSA). During this process, a discrepancy appeared with either your name, date of birth or gender because it did not match SSA’s records.

Name okay but Error in Birth or Gender
If the name on your SSN card matches the name on your driver license or identification card, then there is a discrepancy with either your date of birth or gender. You must visit an SSA office to resolve the discrepancy.
This requires requesting a replacement SSN card in your current name. You must present proof of identity and/or proof of your date of birth or gender to the SSA office.

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/dmv/shared/bds366-ssn-notice.pdf

I feel for the trans people having to endure all this BS!

[ga_girl]

31. So the proper steps need to be followed

Change name legally according to your State's laws.
Present the court order to Social Security. They know how to update your SSA account with the new name and to send an updated Social Security card.
Wait a few days for the databases to get updated.
Get an updated drivers license with the new name.

Rather straight forward process, unless you run into someone who 1) Refuses the legal name change, or 2) has moral objections to the change.

[Ziggysmom]

39. Unfortunately, it doesn't say what exact "Proof" of gender is required. If you get an employee

at DMV or SSA who is bigoted, it could be a very humiliating process for a trans person.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I reckon this dude has to use the women's restroom.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217926252

[moonshinegnomie]

38. a state like california should start issuing birth certificates to trans people

there would be nothing to really stop a state from california from issuing a new BC to a trans individual born in another state. im sure they could come of with some wording to make it legit. for example if your born in nashville and have your original BC as a man and need a new one CA could transcribe all the info from the tennessee one and certify it . just a thought....



And i have a few trans friends that have had reassignment surgery. just looking at them there is no way you could tell

[Lithos]

40. they could

However, given the idea is to help trans people with their identity - wouldn't this be yet another mechanism to out someone?