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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo you believe "It Can't Happen Here"
In Germany of the 1930's, gays, Communists, Gypsies, the disabled, Jews, and so, so many others didn't believe it either. After all, Germany in that era was an advanced country that believed in science, the arts, and might well have become a cultural world leader. That's what most knowledgeable, aware Germans believed back then.
Instead, a psychopathic madman came along and a large minority listened to him, believed him, and fell into line behind him. We know what came next.
Do you really believe "It can't happen here?"
C'mon. It can happen anywhere. We don't have any "magic" immunity to fascism.
And, as you know, most gays, Communists, Gypsies, the disabled, the Jews, and many millions of others died. Most of them in death camps. Do you really believe that "death camps" can't happen here? Do you really believe today's right-wing crazies wouldn't go that far? Really?
(This is part of a thread from an OP I put up earlier today and I believe it needs its own discussion.)
love_katz
(2,595 posts)It's crystal clear that the R's are full on in their efforts to make it happen here. Their current effort to crash the economy is part and parcel of their strategy to sow chaos and division.
Cyrano
(15,077 posts)And then they'll vote for them again.
Seems there ain't no cure for stupid, -- not to mention self-destructive.
anciano
(1,031 posts)The 2024 election will provide a window of opportunity (perhaps the last) to adjust our present course. What we finally evolve into is yet to be determined.
Boomerproud
(7,986 posts)the signs are all around us.
Bev54
(10,098 posts)It is still hard for me to get my head around the stupidity of people.
Cyrano
(15,077 posts)Some are stupid, some are clueless and, unfortunately, too many are willing to buy the snake oil.
I guess that humanity has a way to go before reaching maturity. But we just may destroy this planet before we can get there.
BlueCheeseAgain
(1,654 posts)But rather, "Is it currently happening here?"
Of course, anything can happen anywhere. No country is immune to dictatorship and tyranny. Some are probably more resistant to it due to their laws and traditions, but there's no guarantee.
The question is whether you think something like that is happening here right now. Because if you really believe it is, then you have a moral obligation to go to extraordinary means to stop it.
Take Hitler as an example, since you brought Nazi Germany up as an example. If you were alive in 1930s Germany and knew what Hitler was up to, you would probably think you were morally obligated to kill him, and possibly several or many of his associates. It would be worth a lot of extrajudicial violence to stop Nazism, no matter the risk to yourself or, for that matter, to innocent bystanders.
So if we really think we're in a situation like 1930s Germany, then we should be resorting to very strong means to stop those who pose such a danger. But even the people who think we're on the precipice of disaster aren't doing so. So I guess the question is, why not? And maybe part of the answer is that at some level, they're not really sure that we are in such a place, at least not yet.
IbogaProject
(2,865 posts)Our GOP brought at least a couple of hundred thousand former Nazi and German functionaries early in the Eisenhour administration. So it can easily happen with them expanding over several generations.
70sEraVet
(3,553 posts)about science had to learn German, because Germany was the intellectual leader of the world. But many of those intellectuals turned out to be Jewish. Einstein and many others fled to the US when Hitler came to power, creating a 'brain drain' that may well have enabled the US to win the war.
brush
(53,978 posts)Last edited Fri May 26, 2023, 10:55 AM - Edit history (1)
Way smarter because we the loyal opposition know what happened in Germany in the early '30s and on J6.
Over our dead bodies.
BOSSHOG
(37,174 posts)Im reading an interesting book about Naval History. (All books about Naval History are interesting but I digress.). A young man who graduated from Harvard in 1937 would eventually join the Navy. After graduation he got a job as a laborer in a steel mill. He believed he needed to know all levels of business before he represented it. His work with many European Immigrants in the mill sensitized him to of the thousands fleeing the increasingly aggressive Hitler regime. His impetus to join the Navy. Did he work with the great grandfathers of proud boys and oath keepers?
It can happen anywhere. Just like a popular vote to ban abortion can get its ass kicked anywhere, as happened in Kansas last year. Although that message was missed by the conservative trash in the state legislature.
calimary
(81,611 posts)So lets keep on doing exactly that!
Skittles
(153,321 posts)but then, I have never been one of those I NEVER THOUGHT IT COULD HAPPEN TO ME idiots, either
NickB79
(19,301 posts)After the past decade of seeing what the Right truly wants to do to us if they seize power. Their most ardent followers have literally said they want to murder millions of us.
At the very least, the LGBT community should be armed to the fucking teeth, IMO.
vercetti2021
(10,156 posts)These idiots just assume we aren't. But liberals along with LGBTQ people don't have the need to go out in public waving guns around to make our dicks bigger.
ancianita
(36,240 posts)Not that gun humper loons need to know that.
But guns don't stop "it." Law enforcement does.
world wide wally
(21,762 posts)It is already happening here!
FoxNewsSucks
(10,447 posts)The question is, can and will our side stop it?
area51
(11,945 posts)moondust
(20,030 posts)Simon Wiesenthal
Two advantages we have today that Germans didn't have in the 1930s:
Historical record of the horrors of Nazism and the Holocaust.
NATO allies with intimate knowledge of what to watch out for because of where it can lead.
wnylib
(21,813 posts)They will only do what is necessary to protect themselves from American policies and actions. They will band together to fill the gap left by the absence of the US on the democracy scene.
It will be up to us to extricate ourselves.
edisdead
(1,967 posts)the question is will it come fully to fruition here? But we are definitely heading that way.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)... Who would oppose us? There would be no Allied force on earth with the capacity to show us the error of our ways.
Cyrano
(15,077 posts)We, the vast majority, are in danger of losing everything to a rabid minority. And at some point, we'll have to act, or be defeated, enslaved, and worse.
Will that point be when Trump goes to trial and the MAGA's run amok in the streets? Will it be the 2024 elections which they're doing everything they possibly can to steal? I don't know. But I do know that our chance to oust this crazed minority is quickly running out.
And anyone who thinks this is radical hyperbole is refusing to see the reality before their eyes.
Sympthsical
(9,197 posts)The more I realize people really have no historical understanding of what 1930s Germany was like.
Just none.
Were not even kind of close.
Anything can happen here. And an asteroid might slam into the Pacific tomorrow.
However, I always find it best to preoccupy oneself with the probable.
1930s Germany! Just reminds me of a teenager who tries to maximize the drama to get sympathy and their way. Youre the worst parent, and no child has suffered as I do!
And then you watch them flounce away and complain on instagram about the injustice of it all.
Its funny, too, because I was just watching a documentary about 1930s Germany last night before bed. Anyone who looks at that era and thinks, Thats just like what Im going through! needs a rescue chopper dispatched to pull them out of their navel.
Dauchau was set up in 1933. Thats what 1930s Germany was like. Political opponents were disappeared and murdered on the regular.
Just like us!
For fucks sake. Libraries. Theyre everywhere.
FoxNewsSucks
(10,447 posts)doesn't mean anyone should sit back and relax.
That's where things are heading.
Behind the Aegis
(54,074 posts)I usually like your plain, straight-forward remarks, but you really missed the point, and your sanctimonious remarks just enhance your missing the point.
"Anything can happen here. And an asteroid might slam into the Pacific tomorrow." True, and just like that event, what happened in pre-Nazi Germany and Nazi Germany CAN happen here...or anywhere! The OP is pointing out what COULD happen. Given the 4 years under the orange skidmark, should he or someone like him get in...we could be...COULD...heading down a very dangerous and destructive path. FFS, did YOU watch the news leading up to Jan. 6?! They almost succeeded in a coup using "procedure", then they tried the old-fashioned way.
History may not repeat, but it does rhyme.
Sympthsical
(9,197 posts)It's not sanctimonious, it's disdain for the lack of factual basis for the remarks. Remarks that are repeated endlessly, with no intellectual or political curiosity to actually know what Germany was like in the ramp up to Nazism, and why it is radically different from the world we're living in now.
History rhymes is just kind of an empty sentiment, a trite thing that gets said. History is similar because human nature is fairly universal, but how and when and with what impetus events unfold are oftentimes fairly localized and unique to where the events are unfolding. You can draw some very broad, inch-deep comparisons to a lot of events, but when you dig into the details, there are frequently some crazy singular circumstances at work. That's the entire point of history, to understand why X event occurred at Y place in Z time.
We are not close to Nazi Germany. We are not close to heading in that direction. We do not have a unified authoritarian power in this country, nor are we particularly close to having one. This is where the fear-mongering usurps reality. We have an enormous amount of power in this country. We more or less dictate what culture is. The bulk of the media operate out of our ideological perspective. Social media absolutely operates from the Left. The country has absolutely moved economically Right in the past few decades, but no one anywhere can deny that we have swung very far culturally and socially Left in the past few decades.
As gay men, I think we can acknowledge that. Part of this fear-mongering involves never acknowledging progress and never acknowledging that society is where it is. That's why I always say, I far prefer to live in the world that exists rather than the image conjured to sell fear and anxiety and line the pockets of the careerists who need us divided and anxious.
I don't know how old you are, but I came of political age in the post-9/11 stuff. Where we LGBTers were going to be sent to FEMA camps ("They're building them in Montana, you know!" ). Bush was going to declare martial law. The 2008 elections were going to be cancelled. "Don't think it can't happen here!"
It's the same shit. Again and again. Fear, fear, fear, anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. It sounds like an exhausting way to live. If someone tells you it's going to rain tomorrow, then they're wrong for 100 days straight, you kind of wonder what they're basing it on. If it rains on day 101, that doesn't mean they knew what they were talking about.
Trump was never going to succeed, nor was he ever going to be close to it. Oh, have no doubt, it was a shitshow, alarming, and a deeply worrisome departure from democratic norms and corrosive to our political system. No question. But there was no possibility and no world where Trump somehow ended up still in office at the end of it. If it were that serious, he'd be in jail by now. The fact he's still out there yammering along should impart that those who hold the reigns of power do not perceive a threat. If they did, he'd be smashed flat, with no chance of getting up off the mat.
The problem with fear is too much of it does not embolden. Rather, it paralyzes. I do think the anxiety-ridden and the shut-in take up entirely too much of our discourse. Despair is a thing, and daily doses of it are not a call to arms. They instill a sense of hopelessness and render inaction the path of least resistance (which is something that actually did happen in 1930s Germany).
Some people think going full Crying Wolf is a useful path. I'm not one of them. And "Maybe there will be a wolf one day!" is not a convincing justification for it.
wnylib
(21,813 posts)It was initially a political prison camp for people who opposed fascism and spoke out about it.
We have already had people in cages under Trump and children taken from their parents. Asylum seekers were villified as criminals and "illegal" immigrants.
The mistake that I hear from many people about the current US vs. Nazi Germany is that we are "not there yet." They compare what Germany became at its worst under fascism with where we are today. But that's a false comparison. The extensive rounding up of Jews, LBGTQ, Gypsies, etc. and massive killings did not emerge full blown out of nowhere. Getting there was a process. Some people could see where it was leading and got out. Some did not see it because it was a gradual process, like a frog in boiling water who adapts until it's too late.
Before the death camps, before the SS, before the isolation of targeted people, there were changes in laws and there were lawyers and judges willing to go along with that. There were gradual restrictions on Jews until they were not permitted to live among "real Germans" or to live at all.
There was a period of normalizing what was not normal before the worst atrocities occurred in Nazi Germany. Hitler became Chancellor in 1932. In 1933 he declared himself fuhrer and chancellor. The early years of his reign were a transition period from a normal society into a crazed cult following.
I have read John Toland's biography of Hitler. I have read numerous first person accounts of life in Germany prior to and after Hitler seized power. I have watched numerous documentaries and true story films of life in Germany from the early years of Nazism to the end of WWII. I am familiar with how Nazis seized power before exercising it as cruelly as they did at their height.
I agree with the OP. It does feel like we are in late 1920s and early 1930s Germany during the growth and spread of German fascism.
Sympthsical
(9,197 posts)It wasn't what it became when it opened. It was, as you said, for political prisoners. My point is that Germany was already pretty much on its authoritarian road, and the citizens were very well apprised of the direction the country was heading. The frogs in a pot mythology has lasted, although studies of the media, propaganda, and party statements from the time show a regime that was very, very open about what they were doing and what they were intending. Hitler was telegraphing his final solution in speeches years before they got there.
So this image of a citizenry that had no idea what was going on until it was too late doesn't hold up. Whenever I see people discuss 1930s Germany, it reads as if they think the citizens were all binging Netflix, and then one day it all kind of arrived. They knew.
But the Nazis also had control of the media - that is not even kind of close to being true of Republicans in America. People didn't speak out because they could be punished or disappeared. I don't see a lot of Americans shutting up out of fear of government retaliation at the moment or anywhere in the near to mid future. Ironically, professional, academic, and social exile due to political views is sort of our thing these days. But we rarely examine our own ideologically authoritarian impulses. That might get icky and self-aware. And no one does that in this country.
I wouldn't put us there. How? What serious comparison can be made? And I do mean serious comparison. One to one. Like book banning. What Republicans are managing is their usual level of suck - except they're not banning books. They can't in this country. They're not even kind of sort of close. What they are doing is fighting over school curricula - which we do all of the time. We scrub all kinds of shit out of education over time and shape how we study history along ideological lines on the regular. And I am right there opposed to what Republicans are doing in that area along with everyone else. But is there a book today that you, as a citizen, cannot access? And is there any likelihood that you can see that you, as an adult citizen, will not be able to access a book due to the government? Is there a book you have in your home that it is a crime for you to possess, and is that likely to change?
"But we're on the road!" No, we're not. And I have yet to see a serious case made that we actually are. It's all surface comparisons decontextualized. The facile has taken over from the thoughtful.
I don't like where various things are going in this country. That's why I vote the way I do. However, I also like having a foot planted at least kind of in the real world that we actually live in.
As far as the border. No one cared before Trump and no one cares after. You see those child deaths recently? Those stories sank like a fucking stone. What does that say about us?
America's problem isn't encroaching fascism. America's problem is that self-awareness is not a thing, so we will go along with whatever as long as it's a partisan win. That's what's going to land us in some shit. We're already getting there. I do not expect Nazis, but I can see a Belfast in 15 or so years.
wnylib
(21,813 posts)what was happening, although there were some who did not see it. Their problem was denial, just like people in the US today deny how bad things are. A frog in a boiling pot feels the heat, knows that it's getting hotter, but adapts to the heat as if it were normal, until it is too late to jump out.
Germans saw and heard what went on, but denied that Nazis were all that bad. Just political ruffians. When they did acknowledge how bad Nazis could be, they denied that they would gain enough power to do serious harm. Newspapers ridiculed Hitler as a buffoon during the 1920s elections when Hitler tried getting political support. When Hitler won enough votes in 1932 to have political bargaining power, conservatives had no serious qualms about him being appointed chancellor because they thought they could control him.
Regarding Nazi control of media, it didn't exist during the period when Nazis were rising in power. Media ridiculed Hitler and his militia thugs (sound familiar?) and some even later defied Nazi laws when the Nazis did have the power to crack down on media. People did speak out initially, before they realized how brutal the Nazi suppression would be. Then they stopped.
Not happening in America? What about poll workers getting death threats? Democratic activists getting forced off the road by RW vans? Cassidy Hutchinson and her family going into hiding after her J6 testimony? All meant to intimidate people into silence. Like Hitler's SA brown shirts did while the Nazis were rising in political power.
Regarding Republican media control, most US media are controlled by corporate conglomerates that support conservative financial interests, aka Republican financial policies. They control what their outlets say or print, without need for government intervention. But you can be sure that if Trump or DeSantis take the WH in 2024, there will be serious government censorship of journalists as "enemies of the state."
You keep comparing established German fascism with rising American fascism. It's not an accurate comparison. The comparison should be rising fascism in Germany with rising fascism in the US.
Republicans ARE banning books in schools and in some public libraries. Yes, people can buy a banned book on Amazon, if they can afford to. But this is rising fascism. If DeSantis or Trump gains the WH, and Rs gain control of the Senate, I expect that it will become illegal to own certain books.
Physical and psychological intimidation of anyone who is not a MAGA supporter is growing. People get harassed in stores over products the stores carry that MAGAs disapprove of. The families of mass shooting victims get villified in RW media which also encourage their followers to harass the victim families with death threats and claims of faked shootings. Alex Jones and Sandy Hook are only one example.
The US southern border and immigration are still issues with MAGAs and their xenophobic attacks on "the other." But during the Trump years, people were not concerned enough about the treatment of asylum seekers at the border. I was involved in seeking justice and help for them through a church's migration outreach program and refugee house in El Paso. I did not get to the house (covid intervened), but arranged a speaking engagement by a woman who had spent a few weeks there as a volunteer. People came out of curiosity to hear what we said, but already the MAGA propaganda had been accepted by too many people whose questions indicated that they believed that asylum was illegal, that the migrants were hardened criminals and gang members. Therefore, there was no mass reaction like George Floyd's murder brought out later.
Currently in NY, Governor Hochul is trying to find places for migrants coming into the state. Her plan was to house them in hotels in various communities. In the rural, red section of western NY, 6 counties immediately filed false state of emergency claims to prevent the migrants from being sent to those counties. (Mine is one of the 6.)
Defining "the other" to target as a scapegoat and as an unacceptable outsider is classic fascism.
I totally disagree with your last paragraph. RWers do accept anything for a win, but that's not true of the rest of us. Dems, for example, actually do weed out sexual predators, even when they are popular, like Andrew Cuomo. MAGAs elevate them.
RE: The excessive partisanship (aka polarization) that you referred to. What do you think that people are polarized about? It's creeping fascism vs. preserving democracy. Don't take my word for it. Check out people with more expertise than you or I have, e.g. Timothy Snyder, Madeleine Albright, and Ruth Ben Ghiat.
Albright's family's experience under fascism and then communism in Hungary, plus her experience in the UN and as Secretary of State qualify her as a top notch expert. I recommend her book, Fascism: A Warning.
Snyder and Ben Ghiat have books out on the subjects of fascism and authoritarianism, plus they have You Tube videos. Worth checking them out.
Sympthsical
(9,197 posts)And cite one of your paragraphs and then ask a question:
Physical and psychological intimidation of anyone who is not a MAGA supporter is growing. People get harassed in stores over products the stores carry that MAGAs disapprove of. The families of mass shooting victims get villified in RW media which also encourage their followers to harass the victim families with death threats and claims of faked shootings. Alex Jones and Sandy Hook are only one example.
Have you never seen this kind of behavior anywhere else?
Can you think of any story in, say, the past week where threats have been made, people trying to shut others down on ideological grounds, and trying to destroy individuals based on tribal views?
Anywhere at all?
If no bells are ringing, you're making my point.
wnylib
(21,813 posts)There have always been people who are belligerent in their insistence that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Today in the US that kind of "thinking" and cult behavior has become the main ingredient and focus of a major political party that promotes racism and xenophobia.
Rather than try to make the argument myself about rising fascism in the US, I am linking a video that does a very good job of defining fascism in both theory and practice. It starts with the theory as proposed by Mussolini and goes on to how it was put into practice in Nazi Germany. It contains quotes from some prominent historians and also from Mein Kampf to show how fascism grew in Germany and took hold of the nation. There are some noticeable parallels to the rise of fascism in Germany and the MAGA movement in the US today.
onetexan
(13,083 posts)onetexan
(13,083 posts)DENVERPOPS
(8,900 posts)Right on !!!!!!!!!!!!
Irish_Dem
(48,140 posts)We were wrong.
oldsoftie
(12,678 posts)They think its being made ready to hold all these liberals who are ruining the country. They also believe that there are already several Americans there NOW. They talk about it ALL the time. I see it.
Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)A lot of the crazy Q stuff seems designed to get their mob in the mood for mass executions with little due process. We've already heard them chanting to "hang Mike Pence".
oldsoftie
(12,678 posts)But they still keep pushing it.
Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)or some BS like that.
Ohioboy
(3,250 posts)republicans in Congress wouldn't let our system stop the madness. It's now to the point where even voting them out doesn't stop them from undermining our democracy and claiming our elections are "rigged". Our Founding Fathers would be disgusted with today's republican party.
treestar
(82,383 posts)are very far apart and the world and technology are much more advanced.
Back then, in the US, there was no gay marriage, Civil Rights laws, disability rights act. The psychopathic madman was voted out of office.
I don't think actual death camps could happen. Not in the same way. Now there are satellites and internet, and then it was possible for the Germans to have them with no one being able to know unless they were right there and could see them.
Today's right wing crazies won't get off the couch - they won't join an army, not a real one.
Maru Kitteh
(28,348 posts)And then it wasn't.
It can happen again.
It can happen here.
treestar
(82,383 posts)In pre-Nazi Germany, I doubt there was a right to abortion if chosen. Women had not begun to have careers as they have here for 50 years now. No women in high places like here now - on the Supreme Court, a Vice President, several Senators.
Maru Kitteh
(28,348 posts)the logical outcome of those trends may become given the desires of the actors involved.
Full on recessions begin with hiccups. Cancer starts with a single cell mutation.
Women have had careers for 50 years but that did not save our rights, and they want to take more.
Women in the Senate, Kamala Harris and the women of the supreme court did not save our rights, and they want to take more.
It can happen again, and it can happen here.
FakeNoose
(32,917 posts)For them it already HAS happened. We shouldn't be proud of any of it, but we need to acknowledge it. We need to make sure it never happens again.