Extreme Wealth

[moose65]

I have been a math instructor at various colleges for over 30 years. In that time, I have observed students who don't know when their answer makes sense when they are working with interest formulas. For example, if a deposit of $10,000 is made at 4% compounded daily for 4 years, the amount after that time is $11,735.01. I have had students give me answers of hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars, without realizing that their answer makes no sense.

In that same vein, people don't understand how marginal tax rates work, and the media does little to help. When Democrats campaign on raising the top rate back to where it was under Obama or even higher, people think that once you hit that highest tax bracket, ALL of your income is subject to the higher rate. That's not how it works.

I say all that to highlight that people really don't comprehend the vast amounts of wealth that are hoarded by the top .01%. We always lump "millionaires and billionaires" together, so people don't realize that there is a huge difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars. Most of us really have no comprehension of how huge a billion dollars is, and that people like Musk, Bezos, Gates, et al, have multiple billions of dollars.

My favorite story about this: one of my long-term adjunct instructors was an old retired codger named Sam. He used to tell his classes this: if you could go back in time to the year 1 AD and give someone a billion dollars, if they spent $1,000 a day since then, they would, in 2023, have enough left to keep doing that for another 700 years.

No wonder the vastly wealthy try to keep us fighting with each other instead of coming after them! I can't imagine having the wealth of Musk, at over 200 billion dollars. It is literally beyond comprehension.

[Stargazer99]

1. THANK YOU for trying to wake up the common man

[momta]

2. A dear friend of mine is a math teacher

A few nights ago I went to a forum where she was trying to explain to a bunch of old farts like me how ranked-choice and instant-runoff voting works. (She has testified before our state legislature about this.)

It was amazing to see how confused they were. One guy kept insisting that peoples' votes were "counting twice" and she tried to calmly explain, like the fifth grade math teacher she is, that that wasn't true. I'm not sure she ever got through to him.

[Igel]

22. That's an English problem.

Votes are counted twice. Thrice. Four times. They're counted as many times as there are rounds of vote counting.


But for each round of counting, each vote is counted once and only once. And some ballots after the first round are chucked as casting no additional votes.

You can counter an accurate but misleading claim with, "No!" or you can show how the claim is both accurate and misleading.

[mountain grammy]

49. It is confusing

but if it's explained correctly people should get it and embrace it. I have, but it took me a minute. Sadly some never will.

[jmbar2]

3. when they have so much, why do they want more?

Thinking about massive CEO compensation. How do they justify increases when they cannot possibly spend any more? Is it just bragging rights? What do they actually do with so much money?

Where does it go when they die? Even their heirs couldn't possibly spend it all because it just keeps multiplying itself.

[2naSalit]

9. Purchasing power...

Ends up, in the long run, as control over large populations of people for good or ill. In this case, Ill. When you can buy or manufacture arms and pay people to use them at your behest, they will have whatever they desire and few can contest them with success.

[Think. Again.]

30. There are two ways to have more than others....

...get more for yourself, or deny more to others.

Doing both works twice as well.

[AllBlue]

59. Unfortunately,

I understand all too well that significant mental illness and endless drive for money money money are common partners, as Mary Trump Phd does.

My mother was from a moderately wealthy family and carried considerable trauma as a result. She
never saw a therapist and never admitted that "she" needed to do that. I considered becoming a therapist myself as a teen, but later decided that I wanted to work on computer mainframes because they were WAY less complicated and easier to fix than people.

=/


[link:https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+too+much+and+never+enough

[Edim]

60. It's because they have so much.

Greed is an insatiable desire, the more you have, the more you want. How is this even surprising?
It's very easy to spend money, even billions.

[uponit7771]

64. Entitlement, (link) the well off give less proportion of income than the working because of disconnect

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2023/06/14/rich-people-donate-more-when-they-actually-see-poor-people-study-suggests/

[Lonestarblue]

4. Republicans, and Democrats, have messed around with our tax code for so long that much of it

makes no sense. We need a thorough revision that gets rid of a lot of special loopholes that apply to only a few billionaires, as well as revisions in what can be deducted and special taxes on our out-of-control CEO pay. If we had a simplified tax code, it would likely put millions of tax attorneys out of business, but maybe they could go work for the IRS to ensure that billionaires and big corporations pay their taxes.

I think we should also look at personal deductions. I have certainly benefitted from the property tax and mortgage interest deductions, but renters have no such benefits even though they’re essentially paying property taxes and loan interest for the apartment owner through their rent.

I would like to see President Biden appoint a special commission to evaluate our tax code and make suggestions for how to reduce our debt. It cannot be left to Congress because Republicans only obstruct and Democrats also have their big donors to keep happy.

[Igel]

24. That depends on how the rents are calculated.

If you pass the property tax and mortgage deductions down to the renters, then suddenly the owners calculating the rents have higher costs to pass down to the renters.

[Srkdqltr]

5. I read a book once.

In it an account for a gangster, who had all the Information for the money, was dying and wanted to get rid of all the gangsters money. It was amazing that while they were writing checks to charity money was gaining because of interest.

Money seems to have a life of its own.

I'll have to find the book and reread it.

[live love laugh]

62. Reminds me of Ozark the TV show with the same theme: money laundering.

They could not get rid of the money without raising suspicions.

[Bettie]

6. All most people want is enough

to live in a decent place, be able to buy food (for me, it's not having to take a calculator to the grocery store), a few luxuries/hobbies, and a modest vacation once in a while.

We don't need these human dragons sitting on their piles of gold. They are a detriment to society, they make our lives worse by hoarding their money, rather than letting it go through more hands, creating economic activity. They would get it eventually anyway, but they can't stand the idea of the ants on the ground (us) having a moment of contentment.

[mountain grammy]

50. That is so true..

We dream of riches, but to me having a nice place to live and a reliable car.. I'm loaded! I'm so lucky, I have more than that..

[moondust]

7. It's too bad

that more "good" people don't end up with a lot of excess wealth instead of so many assholes like Muskrat. Wealth they don't need could be used to relieve a lot of suffering and desperation in the world.

[brush]

11. Agreed. Musk like trump, inherited wealth which IMO...

sort of like starting with a huge head start...never having had any financial struggles/worries in life. Self-made billionaires OTOH, who give back to society like Soros and Bloomberg, I tip my hat to.

[Igel]

26. That what they say.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/11/17/elon-musk-emerald-mine/

[spooky3]

23. Bill gates and Warren Buffett have their faults

But both have done a lot to help other.

Jeff Bezos’ ex wife is also doing a lot.

[Think. Again.]

31. "Good" people...

...have limits to their ability to get money that "bad" people don't have... ethics, integrity, compassion, honesty, .... Etc.

[moondust]

39. What's the answer?

Seems pretty hopeless when so many didn't care about "good" and "bad" and they put a very "bad" guy with a lot of money--thanks to his huge inheritance--in the White House and who now has 91 felony charges against him. And they would do it again.

[Think. Again.]

43. What IS the answer?....

...somehow (and I have no idea how) we must make "goodness" much more valuable than dollars.

[ret5hd]

8. Here is a GREAT simple video...

a few years old, but still totally relevant:

[yonder]

29. 1+. I've seen similar visual examples - this is a very good one.

Words don't explain the scale of quantity quite like a graphic representation. If more people visualized the difference between too little, enough and far too much, real progress could be made toward improving the lives of all of us.

[jmbar2]

52. Eye-opening

how can they sit on that kind of wealth without doing more to help others?

[brush]

10. The example given by your adjunct instructor really brings...

it into perspective how much just a single billion is. Further clarification IMO should be made that Musk being said to be worth 200 billion doesn't mean he has 200 billion in cash in the bank. That's the estimated worth of his assets...sort of like a homeowner's home is worth say, $250k, but he/she doesn't have that cash in the bank. And then of course, there are debts (mortgage, etc.) that subtracts from that amount once she/he sells.

With what a colossal mess Musk has made of "X", once twitter, should his losses and debts be taken into account? They must be huge.

[Disaffected]

15. There is actually more to it than that.

Much of Musk's "wealth" is based on the current value (trading price) of his stock holdings. The value of the tangible assets of Tesla, for example, are no-where near the amount of the stock price multiplied by the number of outstanding shares (of which Musk holds a potful). The difference is mainly based on stock market speculation of how much the shares may or may not be worth at some time in the future and, the market, at least now, thinks the future value will be a lot higher.

[brush]

20. Perhaps. Twitter was once worth way more than what X is now worth.

[keithbvadu2]

25. The people happiest with the sale of Twitter would be the stockholders forced to sell... at full pri

The people happiest with the sale of Twitter would be the stockholders forced to sell... at full price.

[brush]

28. Yep. I imagine they're happy their once-invested wealth isn't dependent on what...

the erratic Musk does.

[keithbvadu2]

35. Think of the folks who invested in Social Truth Donald ---- STD

My name for Truth Social.

[Disaffected]

27. Sure, and that has negatively affected Musk's "worth".

However, the market valuation of Twitter pales in comparison with Tesla (Tesla's is now about $720 bil). SpaceX, with 40% owned by Musk, is a similar market valuation (about $137 bil) vs asset value situation.

[moose65]

36. True

But doesn’t “net worth” factor in his losses and debts? I thought that was what net worth was - assets minus liabilities.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. Good Post

Agree on the "millionaire/billionaire" thing.
I retired a "multimillionaire" (multi, as in three) but I won't be buying a plane or a Ferrari or a winter home in the south of France.
If we had a billion, we could do all of the above without giving it a second thought.
Gigantic difference between having enough money & being rich.
BTW I think you'll like this. When driving I often do compound interest calculations in my head just for fun. I might just think "What would the yield be at 8.25% for 66 months?" Then, do the math mentally. I think it helps keep me sharp.

[moose65]

46. Haha. That's great!

I do math problems in my head while driving, too!

[madinmaryland]

48. That's funny, because I started off doing something like that after a post just before yours!

[question everything]

13. This is why Minnesota passed a new graduation requirement

Personal finance

The personal finance class requirement garnered bipartisan support in the DFL-controlled Legislature. Legislators said it would help students make better decisions about borrowing, saving money and balancing a budget.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/105912751

And... you did not mention the elephant in the room - complete misunderstanding of student loans.

[Mr.Bill]

14. I sold cars for awhile.

So a customer is looking at a $25,000 car. I ask them if they will be financing it, they say yes.

How much do you have to put dow? Nothing. How many years do you want to finance it for? No more than three years. How much do you want your payment to be? No more than $100.

This happens almost daily on a car lot.

[Disaffected]

17. I would say to them

OK, $100 per day otta cover it.

[Mr.Bill]

19. LOL. Actually the next part of the conversation:

If you want your payment to be that low, it's probably going to have to be more than three years and we're going to have to pick out a much less expensive car. They say "But I like this one."

[calimary]

16. The vastly wealthy should pay the most in taxes.

To me, it always feels like the 200-pound muscleman expects to ride in the cart that the 98-pound weakling has to pull.

[AllaN01Bear]

18. i love what mass did a few years ago. mass put in a 4% millinares tax

and this year , every student was able to have student lunch in mass. could u imagine what that would do for the rest of the country?
that is from a article i read on democratic underground.

[Devilsun]

21. According to my rudimentary math skills.

If someone spends 1k per day they would spend 365k per year. 2023 x 365,000 = 738, 305,000. Please correct me if I am wrong 🙂

[moose65]

42. That's correct

So they’ve spent 738 million and have about 262 million to go!

[Think. Again.]

32. Here's a great visualization....

...of the difference between a million and a billion:

https://m.

&pp=ygUmZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVuIG1pbGxpb24gYW5kIGJpbGxpb24%3D

[Fla Dem]

33. Thank you for putting extreme wealth in perspective.

It is ridiculous that senior executives are making multi-million dollar salaries, while their employees are barely scraping by. To top it off their (the executives) taxes and the corporations' taxes are cut.

[usaf-vet]

34. If we could leave a million dollars to our only child that would be a wonderful gift.

But two million would be impossible based on our station in life.

And maybe that is the way it should be. The second million would most likely deprive some who will have to struggle through life because IMO, in any community, there is only so much wealth to go around.

The mega-rich hoard so much money they can never spend it all to help benefit others in need. Others who are necessary to support all the needs in any community.

The real problem is that the elected officials are more interested in enriching themselves at the expense of others.

Power and Money. Money and Power are the focus of all their days.

Look at our Congress and our SCOTUS.

They long ago ignored the humanity of the simple fact...

"We are our brother's keepers." They should not see their role as oppressors to those with no power to change the very things that keep them down.

[keithbvadu2]

37. I'm working on my second million. The first million was a total failure so I gave up.

[usaf-vet]

38. Good luck on two. What happens to three is the question.

[moose65]

45. They have no sense of obligation

I read an article not long ago that made a point I’d never thought of: back in the 1940s - 1960s, we taxed the superwealthy and collected that money for the common good. Now, the ultra wealthy invest in government bonds, so we’re now paying them in interest what we used to collect in taxes.

[Shermann]

40. Compounding interest grows exponentially, and that defies intuition

Sam Harris devised a thought experiment to demonstrate how your intuition can fail spectacularly. If you were to fold a newspaper 100 times, how thick would it be? Answer: the resulting block height is measured in light years!

[moose65]

44. True

That’s another thing people don’t understand: exponential growth !

[Shermann]

55. There was a question I thought of to stump Trump regarding the rise in Covid cases in 2020

"How can a linear increase in testing cause an exponential increase in reported cases?"

Never asked, never answered.

[yardwork]

41. I am so frustrated that the media doesn't explain this and so much else.

It has to be intentional. The media are owned by those sociopathic billionaires who want to keep the rest of us in the dark.

[Hekate]

47. "I love low information voters"

[ismnotwasm]

51. This is an excellent post

[moose65]

54. Thanks

I’m amazed that people don’t understand basic concepts.

[JI7]

53. I read a poll years back which showed large percentage of Americans thought they were in top 1 perce

or some top percentage when they were not even close.

This might have been around the time of mcmansions being popular and people mostly doing ok although I'm sure they were buying a lot on credit.

But people thinking becsuse they could buty that huge television set they were the wealthiest in the country.

After that many things don't surprise me.

[moose65]

56. Wow

Just looked it up - looks like to be in the top 10%, you have to earn more than $190,000 per year.

To be in the top 1%, you have to make $867,000 per year.

I earn less than half of the top 10% salary 🙄

[LudwigPastorius]

57. Re: Musk's wealth

If he cashed out his assets and put $200 billion dollars into the historically safest investment possible (treasury bills), he would earn over $18.5 million dollars A DAY and NEVER DEPLETE his principal investment.

Obscene...

[LuckyCharms]

58. Amen. Here's an example...

I was watching a stock trade one day.

I was looking at Level 2 data, watching the quantity of shares traded.

The lot quantities were coming in fast and furious...100 shares...500 shares...10,000 shares. They were coming in so fast, ALL DAY, that you could barely read the screen.

I started thinking...what if the quantity of shares was actually dollars instead?

100...100...15,000...40,000...17,000...coming in so fast and furious that you can't read them, for 6.5 hours during the trading day.

What if those lot quantities were dollars. I wonder if it will hit a billion?

Didn't even come close to a billion at the end of the day.

I posted in another thread how most people cannot appreciate how big a billion of something is.

It's an incredible amount of money.

[live love laugh]

61. $200b - $200,000/spent a day ($1 million a week) since 1 AD

[betsuni]

63. Millionares and Billionaires