How the internet is erasing the Oct 7 Hamas massacre

[yardwork]

Gift article: no firewall

https://wapo.st/4914mhj

WaPo updated the title to:

Growing Oct. 7 ‘truther’ groups say Hamas massacre was a false flag


In city council hearings, protests and online, a growing movement with ties to Holocaust denial is effacing history in real-time


By Elizabeth Dwoskin

January 21, 2024 at 10:00 a.m. ET


When she first heard about Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel, Mirela Monte was “appalled.” The South Carolina real estate agent and self-described holistic healer detests violence and is horrified by war and human suffering.


But as Monte read more in Uncensored Truths, a Telegram group with 2,958 subscribers active on foreign policy and the supposed perils of vaccination, her shock turned to anger.

According to the forum, the news reports were wrong: Secretly, Israel was behind the massacre. 
Monte now argues the Oct. 7 attack was a “false flag” staged by the Israelis — likely with help from the Americans — to justify genocide in Gaza. “Pure evil,” she said. “Israel is like a mad dog off a leash.”


The Oct. 7 Hamas terrorist attack is among the most well-documented in history. A crush of evidence from smartphone cameras and GoPros captured Hamas’ breach of the border — a strike Israel says left some 1,200 dead, the most deadly onslaught in the country’s history.

----
I am certain that these lies are being spread by the same bad actors who interfered with the 2016 U.S. election and helped cause Brexit.

It's up to all of us to sift through what we read on social media and what we're told by friends, and figure out truth vs. lies. Our democracy depends on each of us doing this.

[JohnSJ]

1. No surprise and no doubt about.

[yardwork]

2. Thanks, John.

[JohnSJ]

7. Thank-you for this reminder

[EllieBC]

3. Well we knew we would. We knew we'd see this.

AntiSemites and the white saviors were determined to make excuses for October 7. They started on October 7.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. "the white saviors"

[Igel]

82. So "white saviors"

would jump in to support "brown" Palestinians and reject "white" Jews?

Excuse me?

Apart from some idjits in high school on the basis of my learning Spanish when they couldn't--and having seen precisely 0 Mexicans or Mexican-Americans since it was the mid-70s in a backwater of MD--nobody has ever thought me non-white.

More than a few have thought me Jewish. (Full disclosure: I'm Scots-Irish American.)

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Totally unsurprising.

A form of bigotry many look over, probably because it is used so much by both sides, is "regionalism". This is very popular when Israel is concerned. (((I))) wonder why? I see the same stupidity (and bigotry) in those screeching like deranged, lobotomized parrots, "ONE STATE IS THE ANSWER! SQUAWK!"

[Cha]

6. Yes there are so many Lying their heads

OFF about what actually happened on Oct 7.. they can't handle the Truth.

"Mirela Monte was “appalled." I was Horrified and heart crushed.


Thank Goodness there are those of us who won't let the Truth Die.

Mahalo for the gift, yardwork

It’s bleeding into the real world: Demonstrators have shouted the claim at anti-Israel protests and have used it to justify removing posters of hostages in cities like London and Chicago. At a November city council meeting in Oakland, Calif., multiple residents disputed the veracity of the attack.

They're Pro HAMAS heartLess Idiots.

[JohnSJ]

8. +++

[Orrex]

9. What a surprise that anti-vax zealots would buy into antisemitic conspiracy bullshit

Of course, the peril is that it will certainly spread beyond extremist fringe groups.

I'm only surprised that it took so long.

[EllieBC]

10. The extreme left and extreme right

tend to meet at anti-vax, woo, and antisemitism.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. The Triple-A Heel Bar that connects extremists on the opposite sides of the political Horseshoe....

Authoritarianism, Absolutism, and, of course, Anti-Semitism. "Authoritarianism", agree with us or you will be punished. "Absolutism", we have all the answers and there can be no deviation from what we have laid out as "truth". And, "Anti-Semitism", well, that one is pretty self-explanatory, but they use it as, "the Jews (or any Jewish substitute) are the bad guys and we are the true victims."

[EllieBC]

18. What I don't get is

why is there so much insistence that no one on the left can be an antisemite??

They even use the same lines and lies as the far right. It’s literally the same hate.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

What "cracks me up", is some of the ones screeching that mantra, "There is no anti-Semitism on the left" are the same ones who simultaneously screech, "Racism/Sexism/Transphobia/Islamophobia must be purged from the left!" Of course, some of those doing the belching of stupidity, are the ones who post pics of Nazis (neo and classic versions), and say, "THAT is not happening on OUR side." As if, the ONLY forms of anti-Semitism are exemplified by those cretins.

[chowder66]

11. I'm beginning to think the only way to fight the brain rot is to reframe everything as a conspiracy theory.

However, the only way it will work is if the conspiracies are allegedly perpetrated by fellow Americans and our institutions, otherwise it's all bullshit in the minds of people who get off hating their own fellow citizens.

It's all so fucking ludicrous.

[sheshe2]

12. Not surprising at all.

Sad, but not surprising.

[sanatanadharma]

14. The False-flag fallback is a convenient way to avoid having to deal with one's own ethical-emotional-empathy-

The False-flag fallback is a convenient way to avoid having to deal with one's own ethical-emotional-empathy-emptiness born of hopelessness.
The hopelessness of living in a world of human pain, reflecting one's own insecurities.
Instead, self-identity-protection (ego) wrongly argues that salvation is to be found in believing a story that frees one from the slings and arrows of outrageous objective reality. They retreat into the world of the few who 'truly know'; a reality for those who find illusions to be more malleable than veracity.

It didn't happen so I don't have to deal with it. This is the beguiling beauty of false-flag-foolishness.

[yardwork]

21. Yes, it's a convenient way to deal with complexity.

It's so much easier to create a cartoon bad guy and root for the other side, than have to wade into the muck of complex human behavior.

[Cha]

32. Rec TY

[mcar]

15. Women were gang raped and murdered

Babies tortured and murdered. Hamas made and posted videos showing these murders.

Anyone who supports Hamas or buys into this horrible lie is an idiot.

[womanofthehills]

48. Times of Israel - 2 babies died Oct 7 -Mila Cohen 10 months old died

Two babies are two babies too much but let’s keep the facts straight. It’s horrible to see any child suffer or die from any country.


Times of Israel

“14 kids under 10, 25 people over 80: Up-to-date breakdown of Oct 7 victims we know about”

“One of them was a baby under the age of one year — 10-month-old Mila Cohen, killed with her father and grandmother.

According to data by Haaretz, a Bedouin woman at the tail end of her pregnancy was shot in the abdomen while heading to the hospital to give birth, said where doctors delivered the baby, but failed to save it.

Additionally, 12 children aged 1 to 9 — 10 boys and two girls — were murdered in the Hamas massacres, according to Walla.

Between the ages of 10 and 19, 36 civilians were murdered, 25 of them male and 11 female.

The largest number of confirmed civilian victims, 421, were in the age group of 20-40. Among them were 259 men and 162 women.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/

[TexasDem69]

57. Nothing in your post disputes that Hamas raped and tortured

Women and children. These are intentional rapes and murders, committed by hand by Hamas’ terrorists and planned by Hamas’ leaders. Please tell me you aren’t defending Hamas or minimizing Hamas’ actions.

[yardwork]

62. Keep what facts straight? What are you saying?

The poster noted that babies were killed on October 7. Are you disputing that?

[Cha]

72. WHAT "FACTS STRAIGHT"?

[mcar]

79. Thanks for keeping the facts straight

Hamas murdered babies and young children. They gang raped, mutilated and murdered women and girls. They slaughtered 1200 innocent people and kidnapped and did who knows what to 200 more.

It was not a "false flag" operation. It was a horrific, brutal, terrorist attack.

[TexasDem69]

84. Hold on a second, just noticed something about your post

Humans aged 1-9 are “children” but those 10-19 aren’t? I’m on board with the idea that a 19 year old is an adult, but there’s no world in which someone 10-12 years old is anything other than a child. Yet you are suggesting they aren’t.

[tritsofme]

16. Plenty seem intent on doing that here as well.

[NNadir]

17. It seems remotely possible that 25,000 deaths in Gaza might have something to do with it.

I'm certainly no fan of Hamas, but neither am I a fan of Netanyahu.

Bombs fall on the innocent and guilty alike.

War is always atrocity ratcheting, but the focus on the origins over the results is certainly ethically questionable.

[yardwork]

19. Did you read the article? Probably not, I'm guessing.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Remember, whenever you post something not completely/mostly critical of Israel...

...or anything which might cast the pale light of sympathy for Israel or Israelis, the need for equivocation arises.

[yardwork]

23. "This bad thing happened so that other bad thing didn't really happen."

Right wingers play this game a lot. It turns out that some who are supposedly on the left play it too.

I can think of some equivalent comments that would make some people mad, but I won't post them. It's a pretty easy game to play if you're intellectually dishonest and seeking justification for lazy stereotyping.

[NNadir]

24. I did not, and neither do I have any intention of doing so.

As far as I'm concerned there is no rationalization of events on either side, and I personally don't believe that what Hamas did has been or can be "erased," anymore than what Netanyahu did has been or can be "erased."

I don't need journalistic spin to be thoroughly disgusted by the whole affair, both sides.

[yardwork]

25. Is it hard to breathe the air way up there?

[NNadir]

27. Not at all. How's breathing in the trenches?

Hopefully not too many fumes from the explosives...

[emulatorloo]

52. Journalistic spin? The article is reporting on Conspiracy Theorists claiming Oct 7th didn't happen or

was a false flag.

There is nothing at all in the article about “rationalization from both sides.”

[NNadir]

54. ...and...the point is what?

[emulatorloo]

59. The point is you attempted to discredit an article by claiming it is about something that it isn't about.

You essentially created a strawman argument, and made irrelevant comments to counter a artcle thst didn’t say anytying like you ass-umed it did.

Probably would have been a good idea to read the article before commenting. JMHO of course.

[NNadir]

61. The article is only immune from being discredited if knowledge of Hamas's crimes has been erased.

It has not been "erased."

If there are a bunch of weak minds for whom they've been "erased," does not mean that rational people "erase" them.

Most people know what Hamas did. I do. You apparently do.

I'll file the title with "...Hillary Clinton's Emails..." and "Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction" titles.

The problem with journalists in this country is their obscene abuse of rhetoric by appeal to hyperbole.

[Cha]

74. Thanks for Pointing that out about

the Strawman.... it was hard to follow what it was being said

You made very clear points. TY for shining the Light!

[yardwork]

56. If people want Trump to be defeated, they need to pay attention.

I'm actually disgusted by the number of responders to this thread who didn't bother to read the article, but felt compelled to post their opinion about what they assumed it says.

TL;DR - This conspiracy theory encourages people to vote for Trump.

[emulatorloo]

60. And then get outraged! when it is pointed out their assumptions have ZERO to do with the article's content.

[yardwork]

63. Performative outrage is one reaction to being embarrassed.

[Arazi]

64. I'm convinced there's Kremlin psy ops around all of this

The level of propaganda, misinfo, deliberate lies and now outright denial! is infuriating.

It’s designed to suppress Dem votes, hurt Biden, split our party, and help #Traitor.

I’m really shocked that it’s worked so well even here in this small patch of social media. Very discouraging. I know the Russians are masters at this (and KSA, China and whichever other authoritarian states are also participating) but I naively thought this group was savvy on this.

[yardwork]

66. I agree with you, on all points.

The disagreements on DU are nothing compared to what's happening on college campuses and elsewhere. A bunch of people seem to have lost their minds.

It's not just pay-ops. Whoever came up with the idea of having Hamas launch this attack, knowing exactly how Netanyahu would react, is an evil genius. The whole thing is incredibly clever.

[SoFlaBro]

58. "Journalistic spin"?!? There is no rationalization in the article. What are you reaching for here?

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. The original title (which the WP has now changed) didn't encourage reading - it was hyperbole

"How the internet is erasing the Oct. 7 Hamas massacre" has been changed to "Growing Oct. 7 ‘truther’ groups say Hamas massacre was a false flag". It was ridiculous to blame "the internet", and to make it sound as if general knowledge of the Oct 7th massacre was somehow disappearing. The 'truther' groups are fringe.

[yardwork]

53. Thanks for providing the updated title. I'll update my OP.

However, choosing to comment on an article while proudly proclaiming that it's beneath their notice to actually read it is not something I can admire.

[Jilly_in_VA]

26. Shouldn't this

be under "Israel/Palestine" and not in General Discussion?

[mcar]

80. Have you missed the hundreds, if not thousands, of OPs about I/P

on GD since Oct. 7?

[Turbineguy]

28. Why is this bullshit so seductive?

I had a colleague in the 90's who was into, as they were known then, urban legends. It was fascinating. Having this "knowledge" made you feel smart, special, and well informed.

And you are all those things, unless you fuck it all up by finding out the facts.

[yardwork]

29. I think that's exactly the appeal of QAnon and other conspiracy clubs.

I think seductive is the word. It's so tempting to have easy answers to everything - especially if you're part of a club who are the only ones who know.

So much easier to give into biases, stereotypes, and blame, rather than look at the whole big messy thing and have to make difficult choices and acknowledge the complexities. I think that makes insecure people feel dumb.

[xmas74]

40. I had friends in the 90s who were really into

CT and had a theory for everything. Living within a short dash down the road from a Minuteman silo fed into it. (Yes, we all knew what it was. It wasn't a secret.)
Guess what they all had in common? They were tweakers. A couple were straight up junkies. They all worked during the 90s, dried out in the early 2000s but didn't leave their old tweaker thoughts behind. When they dried out and found Jesus they became ultra conservative, crunchy preppers who found others to spread their nonsense.

And yes, they are all antisemitic. Many of their biggest CTs involved the Jewish community.

[flashman13]

30. There is no question that October 7 was a horrific wantom act. But

you can't look at 25,000 dead (mostly women and children), 2,000,000 people displaced from their homes, and an entire city razed to the ground as righteous justice. I can't.

And one more thing, the next round of atrocities is being incubated in those ruins unless some sort of just peace between Israelis and Palestinians is reached. The two peoples have been betrayed by their leaders. Bibi, those people that run Hamas, and all of the religious fanatics must be replaced.

[yardwork]

33. The article is not about that, though.

The article - which is free to read - is about conspiracy theories that claim the October 7 attack didn't happen at all, or was perpetrated by Israel and/or the U.S.

These lies are convincing people to vote against Biden in the election.

[Happy Hoosier]

38. I guess you think WWII went too far as well?

If so, at least you’re consistent.

Urban warfare is ugly and bloody. This is exactly the outcome Hamas wanted…

[ColinC]

50. The Netanyahu government too

It suits both sides greatly while everyday Palestinians and Israelis continue to suffer and die

[Happy Hoosier]

55. Okay... so what comes next?

Any solution that leaves Hamas is power is kot acceptable.

It’s fair to think Nutandyahoo is an asshole.

But Oct 7 happened, and Hamas did it. Do you think a solution that leaves them in power is going to be acceptable?

It’s fine to rail against Bibi. He deserves it. But it’s not a solution.

[ColinC]

67. Bibi isn't just "an asshole" he is a terrorist. Our supporting him is no better than if we outright gave weapons to

Hamas.

Right now the solution that ensures Hamas stays in power is the one that is currently being pursued by the Netanyahu government. If you don’t want Hamas in power, the first order of business would be to get rid of Netanyahu. If you haven’t noticed already, he is their number one fan and has no interest in actually removing Hamas outside of killing one or two of their leadership which is easily replaced and murdering thousands of civilians.

[Happy Hoosier]

69. I'd love to see him out...

Heck, I’d love to see him jail.

But Hamas will only be removed by force, whoever is in charge in Israel

[NickB79]

73. Literally ANY Israeli government would have done the same

No Israeli politician would have held back after what happened on Oct 7. The attacks by Hamas were so horrific that no Israeli politician could have not brought their military might to bear on Gaza.

And that was precisely what Hamas wanted.

Is Netanyahu a right-wing POS? Yes.

Would any of his political opponents, if they were in his shoes, done exactly the same response? Also yes.

[mcar]

81. But, but Israel

Maybe read the article. Just a thought.

[surfered]

31. 1,400 Israelis were killed in the attack...

…25,000 Palestinians, including women an children, have been killed in the Israeli response.

[yardwork]

34. Ok, what does that have to do with the article, though?

[Cha]

35. That does NOT Justify Blaming Israel for "Killing their own People on Oct 7."..

which is what the OP is about if you read the Article.

This is on HAMAS.. Israel Offered a Humanitarian Ceasefire on Dec 20 and HAMAS said an Unequivocal NO.

[Happy Hoosier]

42. You think the casualties are the point?

I’m sure some in Israel think that way, but the point, it seems to me, is to remove Hamas from power… Ua know, the guys who planned and launched the Oct 7 massacres and rape squads.

Any outcome that leaves these assholes in power, planning to do it again, is a non-starter.

It’s like having a terrorist organization as your government is a bad idea.

[sheshe2]

47. Yet that is not what the OP is about.

It is about the erasure of the fact that this started on 10/07 by Hamas.

Erasing history.

The article talks of the conspiracy theories being spread on social media. ie: Israel captured their own citizens and delivered them to Hamas and that is after 'paid' actors massacred 1200 Israelis? Do you realize how absurd this sounds?

[yardwork]

37. I know their story, if that's what you mean.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

[gratuitous]

39. Many of them remain in captivity

And yet do you see anything anywhere about their ongoing plight, forcibly married to their captors and forced to bear their children?

[yardwork]

41. Nope, and I've pointed it out here before.

[xmas74]

44. Yet what does this have to do with an article

About the erasure of HAMAS in the October 7th massacre?
I know about the women and I hope they are still alive or at least recovered and given to their families for their final rest. What I don't understand is how an article that talks about how groups have used an event against Jews and turned it into a false flag as a way to further promote antisemitism has anything to do with Boko Haram.

[NY_Gunner]

43. Meanwhile...

Israel is continuing its literal erasure of the Palestinian people…Jus sayin.

[emulatorloo]

51. Kinda off topic to article being discussed (Conspiracy theorists who claim Oct 7th is a "false flag.")

Example:

“Israel murdered their own people on October 7,” said Christina Gutierrez, an analyst in the city’s housing department

Welcome to DU!

[SidneyR]

45. For the latest news from Israel

Go to "Life on the border with Gaza - things people may not know but . . . " on Facebook. Not the full title, but I'm locked out of my FB account because I don't have another "device" to verify my account. Anyway, great site.

[Cha]

76. What Does that have to Do with the OP?

“Israel murdered their own people on October 7,” said Christina Gutierrez, an analyst in the city’s housing department, where some in the crowd shouted “antisemitism isn’t real.” Gutierrez did not respond to requests for comment.

The link is in he OP.

[sarisataka]

46. But Israel...

It is retroactively justified because
Israel did it....
Propaganda...
What massacre?

Or the actual reason, "it's just ****"

[keithbvadu2]

65. What American group wants to kill more Jews? Trump's republicans.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

68. And on cue the pro Hamas faction appears in the WaPo comment section

Some pretty offensive stuff If you have access.

[yardwork]

70. I saw that, and it proved the truth of the article in real time.

[OilemFirchen]

71. You didn't even have to do that shallow dive.

There are an adequate number of said faction right fucking here.

[NickB79]

75. Hell, there are practically a few here in this thread

[Cha]

77. I'm sure... I see enough of that shit.

[Voltaire2]

78. 'The internet' is apparently a 3000 member chat group.

And here, all along, I thought the internet was dominated by huge platforms with hundreds of millions, even billions of users. Platforms owned and operated by tech oligarchs.

[lees1975]

83. Not into conspiracy theories, but...

It's interesting to note how this is being almost immediately twisted into a political issue to try and lay responsibility for Gaza on to the President. What most of those pro-Palestinian protesters don't seem to know is that they will be targets for elimination if the Maga crowd gets their dictator in the White House in November. There won't be any Pro-Palestinian protesters, they'll be filling jails and prisons and convicted without trials. That's exactly where this is headed.

Israel's response to the attack has gone way out of the bounds of reasonable expectations, not only from an international perspective, but also, clearly, from the perspective of a majority of their own people. I think a reckoning with Netanyahu and his government is coming. I also think that the direction this seems to be headed here is clear-minded and realistic, and that what this has become is well beyond acceptable expectations for our administration, too. Of course, if we had a president unrestrained by the rule of law, the constitution, and with blanket immunity, he could either drop a nuke or two on Gaza, which is what the extremist right thinks is necessary to solve international problems, or have the Israeli leader assassinated, if they didn't do what he wanted.

And none of what is happening now is helping the Palestinian people.