Lots of Democrats are Christian. Why All the Hate?

[qwlauren35]

I did a quick Google search. 42% of Democratic voters are Protestant and 23% are Catholic.

And yet, it is normal and acceptable to bash Christians and Christianity on DU.

I have read posts in which Christian beliefs are mocked, put down and ridiculed. Especially the theology around forgiveness of sins. Also creationism.

I have read posts which suggest that Christians are "the enemy". I have read posts that suggest that all Christians are hypocrites.

Recently, someone posted that being Christian on DU feels unsafe.

About forty years ago, I was a bloodthirsty Christian basher. I wanted people to know that there were other valid religions. Like the Buddhism I had chosen. I was convinced that all Christians were hypocrites. And then I met someone who changed my life. She was an evangelical Christian. She was the nicest person I had ever met. She didn't have a bone of hate in her body. Everything I threw at her was returned with warmth, love and kindness. She knew I was Buddhist. She accepted that I was Buddhist. It's quite possible that she hoped that by sharing her faith, I would reconsider. But she wasn't pushy in any way.

She changed my life because, knowing her, it was Impossible to say that all Christians are hypocrites. To say that all Christians are hypocrites is actually just as stereotypical as saying Mexicans are lazy or black people are criminals. I knew I had to stop. And I decided to open myself, my mind, my heart, to assuming that a Christian person is a good person until proven otherwise.

One of my cousins is an evangelical Christian. her sister is a lesbian and I think she struggles with it, but there is a lot of love between them. She asked me to try Christianity and I explained why it didn't fit me. And it's a pretty basic reason. I try to be a good person. But I am not a believer in the Son of God. In her faith, I will not see God when I die. (And if I did become a believer, that would have to include believing that over half of the people I know would suffer this fate, and that would break my spirit.) I know that she wants that for me because she loves me. Not because she's a nag or invasive. .Love drives her. This woman prays for my happiness on a regular basis. And her actions make me feel cared for. That is it's power. That is why I don't reject it, don't reject her. Why would I reject someone who loves me just because our faiths are different?

So, that is my story, and I tell it because I think of myself as an ally. I believe in saying Merry Christmas to people who believe in Christmas. I enjoy looking at Christmas lights because I think they are pretty, and I can walk past a manger scene without any opinion because somebody else likes it and I'm okay with that. It doesn't bother me when someone prays before a big game. I see it as no different than carrying a rabbit s foot or wearing lucky underwear. It has meaning to THAT person, and nothing is gained by taking it away.

All that to say: DU needs to be a safe space for Democrats who believe in Jesus Christ just as much as it is a safe place for people who don't.

Have some respect for people's different beliefs. It costs nothing.

[Gore1FL]

1. The brand has been poisoned.

The loud Evangelical Christians became the face of American Christianity.

[electric_blue68]

16. Well, living in a city where there are Liberal Christian Churches helps...

I always have that distinction in my head.

And being a spiritual person I can feel comfortable sitting in a certain amount of non conservative religious buildings.

[whathehell]

47. Only for those who allow it to be..

Aren't we supposed to be the brighter, more 'nuanced' party that doesn't let mass media tell us how to think?

[Gore1FL]

211. I didn't come to the conclusion via mass media.

I know them by their fruit.

[whathehell]

252. Conflating Right Wing Evangelicals

with Mainstream Christianity means you're coming to the wrong conclusion via something, perhaps just a lack of knowledge. This is something some of us here are trying to remedy.

[Gore1FL]

292. I've taken history classes.

I assure you no conflation is necessary.

[whathehell]

299. Wow...Really?

You mean you got all that fancy book learnin' stuff?

Sorry, but I have, like most here I'd guess, also taken history classes and I can assure you that conflation definitely is necessary.

[Gore1FL]

310. Thanks for the example of mainstream christian love!

Define mainstream Christrianity? Anti-woman Catholicism? Anti-LGBTQ Methodists?

Where is this true Christianity that I am missing? Who defines it?

Most importantly, what does it bring to the table?

[whathehell]

314. Lol..It didn't feel like thats what you wanted..

and, that said, it's a bit late to be asking -- or is it 'demanding'? -- definitions from me. You have, after all, been claiming to KNOW all there is to know about Christianity, so what's the sudden interest?. I don't think you have any. I think you're a very angry person with no interest in anything at the moment but expressing that anger, so with that I'll wish you a good one and say 'Ciao'.

[Gore1FL]

322. Let's review

1> I said Christianity's brand was poisoned.
2> You said I was influenced and that "mainstream Christianity" was different.
3> I said my interpretatations were based on history.
4> You insulted me.
5> I gave examples of Christianity sucking,
6> You moved the goal posts.

And they'll know we are christians because of our denial, our denial
Yes, they'l know we are Christians by our denial.

Sorry. This isn't a win for you; I do appreciate you, as a self-described mainstream christian, proving my point, however.

[brewens]

148. I keep saying these good Christians we've always been told about have had since the 50s to push back on

these fundamentalists and have not. Now would be a good time. Their freedom of religion depends on it.

With all respect that is due, it's a fairy tale. Fewer and fewer people pretend any of that every day. That is a good trend as far as I'm concerned.

[Wonder Why]

176. I agree with the poster even though I don't believe. But I can recognize

the difference and don't lump them all together and or use many of the terms that too many DUers use about them. Too much hate from too many good people makes me wonder why (pun intended) they need to be that way when they post on a site of mostly like-minded fellow DUers.

[whathehell]

270. You make excellent points..

Thank you!

[Gore1FL]

323. Except that every chance, they lump themselves together. nt

[Wonder Why]

327. Please explain that one to the rest of us.

[Gore1FL]

328. We are talking generically about Christians in this very thread.

I assume it was started by a Christian, and Christians are participating.

What needs explaining?

[Wonder Why]

335. If you haven't an answer, never mind.

[Gore1FL]

336. I see you aren't forthcoming with the answers required to the questions posed to clarify your question.

"Mainstream Christians" isn't a thing.

[OAITW r.2.0]

2. If I was asked my religious persuation, I'd answer....

all of the above.

[Haggard Celine]

25. That's how I feel as well.

There is usually some good in most religions, and I try to look for that good. I believe in God, although I'm not sure what he's like.

Atheism is a valid choice as well. I don't really think God cares whether people believe in him or not. He's above all of our squabbles. The most important part of religion, in my eyes, is the Golden Rule. Atheists I have known believe that they should treat others the same as they would like to be treated.

That simple rule is what all of us need to follow. You can call that religion or philosophy, it makes no difference. When we follow the Golden Rule, we are at our best.

[OAITW r.2.0]

27. 8 Years of Jesuit education made me an agnostic.

For that, I am thankful.

[Haggard Celine]

32. The Pope is a Jesuit. I think he's the first Jesuit Pope.

He seems rather liberal to me, compared to the others I've seen. He's upset Opus Dei and other Catholic conservatives. I think that he's been been great to average Catholics who see him as sort of a liberator. But God only knows who will be chosen next. I hope that whoever it is doesn't undo all the work that Francis has done.

[Hekate]

56. I really like and respect Pope Francis. Long life and good health to him.

[Scrivener7]

326. LOL! You and me both!

Though I keep in touch with many from our alma mater and find myself running into uncomfortable performative expressions of religion.

Had to decline to publicly pray in a restaurant with one recently when a group met for a meal. The person didn't ask if others wanted to, just told us we were going to.

No thank you.

[Sky Jewels]

317. Why do you think that there is a magical omnipotent sky wizard called "God" who is a male?

The fact that you assume this cruel, powerful deity is a man just goes to show that the society that made up that nonsense was patriarchal and hated women, which is apparent in the ridiculous Christian stories. It's all just silly. primitive fiction and has zippadeedoodah to do with reality. The universe is many billions of years old and there are trillions of planets; odds are that many millions of these planets have advanced life forms. In other words, we are not special amongst the cosmos. The Bronze Age fairy tales made up by one species of great ape, humans, one one little planet in one little galaxy amount to tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[RandySF]

3. Intolerant Christians are also the noisiest.

[whathehell]

51. Nah, they have nothing on intolerant muslims,

In fact I'd say they're a little less "noisy".

[Lunabell]

103. Bull.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

133. Yeah, Muslims have so much power in this country. They are writing laws and occupying the Supreme Court

[whathehell]

275. Lol..They are members of Congress,

Last edited Sun Mar 3, 2024, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)

so, yeah, they are, in fact, 'writing laws'.
The Supreme Court? Well, given that
Muslims are a relatively "new" demographic here, and that there are only 9 positions, I'm guessing that may take bit longer...Hell, it took over a century for the SC to include anything but Males of the White Persuasion, and there are still no Native Americans on the Court.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

290. Yeah, we have Christian nationalists actually running the house and you are whining about a handful of Muslims

… with no power.

[Bettie]

379. Three

There are three Muslims in congress.

There has been one other previously.

So, there have been a grand total of four Muslims in the House of Representatives. In the history of our country.

But somehow, they are dictating the laws?

Ah, will the persecution of Christians never end?

[redqueen]

164. I agree. They're not a significant number here to affect this country

but if there were, they would be doing much worse than extremist Christians.

[Bettie]

192. Muslims aren't writing the law

in this country.

I don't want to live in a theocracy, no matter which club runs it.

[whathehell]

264. There are Muslim members of Congress,

so I'm afraid you're wrong about that, given that Congress writes the laws.

I doubt that ANYONE here wants to "live in a theocracy". That wasn't the OP's point, however, nor is it mine.

[Voltaire2]

263. In the US? Seriously?

[whathehell]

269. Yeah..In the US, seriously

The noise, in their case, being a tad more explosive.

[Raine]

4. Totally agree. nt

[calguy]

5. I don't see the hate you're talking about

but what's not to hate about the out-of-control actions like this:
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18738549
Is this what ordinary Christians support? If not, then why aren't they speaking out about the evil ways of so called 'Christian' leaders?

[Marcus IM]

42. Agree. The community needs to address & refute the radical clerics unacceptable teachings that don't represent them all.

Y'know ... the same way Muslims are constantly asked to refute the unacceptable teachings of Islam's radical clerics.

[SlimJimmy]

43. Then you are not looking very hard.

It's been here since I joined; many years ago.

I don't see the hate you're talking about

[ShazzieB]

68. I definitely see what the OP is talking zbout, and it makes me very uncomfortable at times.

I see a lot of extreme negativity at DU toward everything religious, including harsh criticism of anyone who believes in a deity at all, whether that deity is what Christians call "God" or something else entirely. And I really get tired of it, especially the snarky posts that refer to God as a "skydaddy."

I also get tired of posts that talk about Christianity as if it were a monolith, whose members all believe in the exact same things and believe in all the same exact hateful ways. And honestly? That's bullshit. Without doing any research whatsoever, I could make a list as long as my arm of just what Catholics believe (or what the Roman Catholic Church teaches) that most Protestants don't believe. With a modest amount of research, I could write a whole book.

And the picture gets even more complicated when you start comparing all the variations in the beliefs/teachings of various protestant denominations. I don't know how many denominations there are, or what percentage of those are represented in the United States, but it's a LOT, and they definitely do not all share the same exact set of beliefs. That's why it annoys the hell out of me when people make negative statements about Christians as if they are all the same. And that happens here, quite frequently.

[SlimJimmy]

352. Good reply and very true.

For example, they say all Christians should turn the other cheek, or we're not Christian. Well, that's not how I operate. There is such a thing as righteous indignation. Get in my face, and see it in action.

[phylny]

105. Oh, I see it all the time here.

Mocking, too. Yet it’s okay and tolerated on DU unlike other attacks which would never be allowed here. I’ve resigned myself to it.

[tavernier]

127. Yes. It's head exploding to call Graham, Lady Lindsay

But just fine to call God, dog.

I just shrug and go on to the next post. Inconsideration runs strong in the opinionated.

[Celerity]

152. Anubis

But just fine to call God, dog.

Xolotl

[Voltaire2]

154. How do you know there isn't a dog god?

[tavernier]

165. There is

I’m worshiped every morning when I get the food bowls out

[Voltaire2]

180. That's a dog's god.

I agree my meaning was ambiguous. How do you know that your god is not a giant dog orbiting Sirius?

[tavernier]

198. Are you being serius?

[Voltaire2]

205. No.

I can’t be serious about religious beliefs.

[redqueen]

167. "Lady Lindsey" is misogynistic. Do you not see that? nt

[herding cats]

318. True and it's also homophobic.

Crap like that is why it's so difficult for some people to openly be themselves. Still, even to this day.

It's a from of psychological bullying designed to intimidate and repress someone from feeling safe. It's pretty disturbing for me to see it used by my peers since it's a method used widely by gay bashing Republican "macho" men. Who also have their own perverse ideology about women and what our proper rolls in society should be.

[RandomNumbers]

135. It's here, and no that post isn't what "ordinary Christians" support.

There is a large and growing faction of RWNJ "Christians" who have been trained to evangelize on concepts like the US supposedly being founded as a "Christian nation" and that things like what that bill does comport with "God's law" and therefore should be instituted in the U.S. (it wasn't, and it doesn't, but the facts are not useful to the RW politicians)

They are a large and growing faction but do not represent everyone who calls themselves Christian.

One reason the RWNJ faction is growing is because the are organized and supported by right wing politicians who see financial gain from the policies they promote.

Meanwhile, the Christians who happen to actually believe the stuff Jesus said - as reported in the Gospels, which are of course selected and translated but still come out rather liberal with all that woke "love your neighbor" stuff - are not as visible because there is no money to be made, and anyway the liberal politicians like to distance themselves from all that God stuff. So the liberal Christians are pretty much politically orphaned. But that doesn't mean they don't exist.

And as decent people we should not be broad-brushing anyone.

[JustAnotherGen]

142. I don't see the religious

Reference at the article linked at your link on DU. Is there religious text in that shitastic bill?

[ancianita]

195. At least one has, and across platforms X, Facebook and YouTube. Examples posted on DU over months...

Link to tweet

The X writer above calls James Talarico's argument "eloquent," but it's not;
it's really just the straightforward way a true Jesus Christian describes current power worshippers who call themselves christian nationalists.
He calls them paid tools of oligarchs -- and ALEC -- who want to capture government under cover of a faith that neither the oligarchs, corporations, nor their tools know anything about. Least of all do they know about Jesus, who, as Talarico implies, was the first to declare the righteousness of the separation of church and state, not Madison, Jefferson or Monroe.

Link to tweet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017828087


https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017870095

And then there is our president quoting scripture: "...Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[redqueen]

6. Christianity isn't special

It's just the most popular brand in the US so it gets talked about more. We used to only hear this 'Christian-bashing' complaint from the right. Disappointing to see it here.

Secular people aren't the threat. 'God' is on our money, in the pledge of allegiance, and in schools. Christian extremists all over the place are busily chipping away at the rules keeping them from pushing their beliefs in schools, hospitals, pharmacies, and government offices. I think it's entirely fair to bash them.

[NoRethugFriends]

12. yup

[qwlauren35]

31. You allow a subset to represent the whole.

Please do not bash my race because of some hoodlums in Baltimore who are shooting each other. They do not represent me.

Please do not bash Christianity because of extremists.

Please do not bash Islam because of extremists.

[redqueen]

58. Nah, I'll criticize all religions

Bertrand Russell summed it up well.

"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

[spooky3]

262. Religious beliefs differ from race, gender, etc., in an important way.

They are chosen by the individual. Also they are a belief system, or a set of ideas that cannot be empirically verified. Other ideas and beliefs are subjected to empirical verification, or failing that, scrutiny for logical consistency. If a belief system or set of ideas isn’t logically consistent or empirically grounded, thinking people can legitimately criticize it. This is very different from attacking or dismissing people based on their race or other immutable characteristics.

[malaise]

158. Great post

Rec

[Oneironaut]

7. Christianity is killing my friends.

Sorry, but, not a fan of it.

[electric_blue68]

18. There are Christians who accept the LGBTUI Community...

in Liberal Churches

[SlimJimmy]

46. I consider myself to be a Christian

My brother is gay. I love my brother and think it's his path, not mine. What is wrong with holding both views?

[Lunabell]

102. Being gay is not a path or a lifestyle.

That's one reason why christianity is bashed. Being christian is a path/choice. Being gay is not.

[SlimJimmy]

351. Realizing that he was gay was his path.

It was not a choice he made. But thanks for taking the opportunity to bash my beliefs, You folks never disappoint.

[gay texan]

383. And here we go

Saw ths coming

[whopis01]

177. What are the "both views" in your example

Usually what I have seen the term “both views” used it refers to contradictory views. But what I don’t see any conflict in what you are saying.

[Tree-Hugger]

274. Both views? Path?

Being gay is not a "view." Nor is it a "path." Both of those words imply choice.

[SlimJimmy]

350. His path was to realize he was gay. Not a choice.

So both of these words don't imply choice.

[speak easy]

63. And they are the exception.

[qwlauren35]

74. What defines "exception"?

When 60% of the Democratic Party are Catholic or Protestant Christians, I don't see how they are the exception.

[speak easy]

75. A tick on a census

a response to a poll is not adherence.

[qwlauren35]

79. Now you are suggesting

That some significant part of the 60% of all Democrats claim a religion that they don't really believe.

Given all of the hate for Christians, it's unlikely that they would claim it unless it was true.

It's almost as though you are saying that a Christian Democrat is a paradox. An exception. When in fact, it's the majority.

[speak easy]

81. Well here's an example:

The GOP stacked the Supreme Court with Roman Catholics so they could impose Orthodox Christian doctrine on a secular Republic by killing Roe.

The hate is for (in my case) is for Christian institutions imposing / attempting to impose their beliefs on Abortion and Gay rights by referencing religion, the very thing the Founders were against, but par for the course these days.

[qwlauren35]

85. So, why not blame the GOP

Instead of blaming Christians?

[speak easy]

90. It was orthodox Christian teaching

that gave the GOP the weapons it wanted.

[JustAnotherGen]

146. Coptic and Eastern?

Or do you mean the Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionism that took over the GOP in the 70's/80's?

[ancianita]

170. Orthodox Christianity exists according to the Word in the Bible and whatever is stated in the "Apostles Creed."

Nowhere does the Bible address abortion, not in any Christian version anywhere in the world of 2.4 billion christians.

What the GOP christian nationalist lawyers and justices on the Supreme Court used was an INVENTED SIN to justify overturning Roe in order to control & dominate women by taking away their equal protections for just being born female.

Neither abortion nor the subjugation of women is Jesus-based at all.

DU should understand that no group should be bashed by defining that group by its worst members.
They might at well bash democracy based on its worst underminers. As Clinton has said, "mend it, don't end it."

To that end, consider how Christians like James Talarico in Texas, are correcting and admonishing christian leaders.
And perhaps read more about how christianity has always suffered power worshippers, from the converted Roman Emperor Constantine to the global law group, Alliance Defending Freedom.




Our president Joe Biden is a Jesus Christian. So is former president Barack Obama and many former Democratic presidents.

We have to keep in mind that as a big tent party, we recognize that unity isn't uniformity. It's our norm to accept believers and non-believers.

For example, it's why most DU'ers admire James Talarico, Democrat from Texas who explained to his state what Jesus Christians think as opposed to power worshipper christians.

This divisive broad brush bashing is driven by distrust of difference between believers and non-believers in general.

[speak easy]

220. The biggest denomination,

the Roman Catholic Church would disagree with you that Christianity is just the 'word of the Bible.' So would the 5 Catholic Justices on the Supreme Court who killed Roe. Catholic teaching on abortion did not begin with Reagan. President Biden separates his Catholic faith from his approach to public policy.

The GOP put each and every of the majority of Dobbs on the Supreme Court because of their Catholic faith to overturn Roe. Or are Catholics not Christian enough for you? How about the fastest growing Christian denomination, the Pentecostals?

[ancianita]

224. I was raised Catholic. Were you? If not, take my word for it: Catholicism is the oldest Christian denomination

and set the Bible as the Word of God. Every Mass, held Sunday or any other day, prays back to God using scripture from the Bible. Every single mass I ever attended as a child and in high school, the priest said at the end:
"May the words of my mouth, and the meditations of our hearts,
Be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, our strength and our redeemer" Psalm 19:14
And that's just one example of what exists throughout Catholic masses everywhere in the world.

Then the priest turned to the congregation and says, as he makes the sign of the cross: "Go with God, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen" Some of this might have changed since I was young, but use of the Bible during Mass, and the reciting of The Apostles Creed -- aka the Nicene Creed -- are core liturgy of the Catholic Mass.

You're not just mistaken or incorrect, you're wrong.

The Roman Catholic Church would agree with me. Every time President Biden goes to Mass, he recites the Apostles Creed out loud.

Because THAT denomination is the origin of all the dogma at the spiritual heart of all other Christian denominations. Even the Eastern Orthodox Church agrees with 99% of the original Council of Nicaea's formalizing of the biblical foundations of Christian belief.

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. But the Roman Catholic church does not say it's *only* the Bible, or the Apostles' Creed, that define its doctrine

So no, they were not "wrong".

6. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?

85-90
100

The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.

17. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?

95

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

So it doesn't matter for Catholics that the New Testament doesn't mention abortion; later clerics pronounced on it (before the American Republican party became obsessed with it), and declared it never allowable (and they have said the same about IVF, for that matter).

[ancianita]

257. I get all that about the Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

As Catholics might or might not know or believe their infallibility, it is still the Body of Christ that must each answer for what God has said through his/her/its Word, not intermediaries (who claim "infallibility in matters of faith and morals) since the first pope, Peter, who denied knowing his Lord, Jesus, three times, recorded in more than one gospel.

Repentance will be the first and last duty of those intermediaries as it is for every single other Christian in the Body of Christ. Why? Because across several ancient writings, Jesus said all must believe IN him, not just believe him, or about him. Further proven when some criminal on a cross next to Jesus said he believed IN him -- Jewish, unbaptized, unchurched, whatever -- the historian, Luke, records that multiple eyewitnesses heard, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." The Catholic church's infallible intermediaries know that they don't have the last word, even if their members think they do.

When Republicans want to dominate government with religious belief about what to "allow," they are not being led by either the Word or the Holy Spirit, only by the Enemy who "anoints" them with temporal power and mammon.

It might not matter to Catholics or Republicans, but it matters to the Catholic president, Joe Biden, and the clerics and members of the Church who still support him. Because the New Testament also says that all just laws are looked upon with favor by God. MLK, Abe Lincoln, and now Biden know unjust laws. I could quote them.

[speak easy]

286. I too was raised a Catholic,

and I had the good luck to go to a Jesuit School who taught me to think for myself.

Yes I agree that that the Nicene Creed is the core of Catholicism, and if you deny the Apostles Creed you are not a Christian.

But to reduce the Catholic Christianity to the Creed and the Bible is to discard the Magisterium - the Church's teaching Authority.

The term magisterium is based on the Latin word for “teacher” (magister). In contemporary Catholic usage, it has several meanings. First, it refers to the teaching authority which Christ has given to the Church. Here the term refers to the authority itself, not those who exercise it. This usage appears in statements like, “The Church exercises its magisterium when it authoritatively proclaims Christ’s teachings.”

... the term can [also] refer to a particular body of teachings that have been authoritatively proclaimed. This usage appears in statements like, “Humanae Vitae belongs to the magisterium of St. Paul VI.”

A biblical basis for the Church’s teaching authority is found in the Great Commission as it was given by Jesus: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). It is also reflected in the Church’s mission to be “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” in the world (1 Tim. 3:15)

When it does speak officially, the Magisterium can exercise its authority in different degrees. At the low end, the Magisterium may merely propose an idea for the consideration of the faithful without imposing it authoritatively. At the high end, the Magisterium may infallibly teach a truth, binding the faithful to definitively believe or hold it.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/magisterium

"The official teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992 oppose all forms of abortion procedures whose direct purpose is to destroy a zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus, since it holds that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception."

The Baptists, Pentecostals, and most mainline Protestant Churches hold the same belief.

"Binding the faithful to definitively believe or hold it." Is that so difficult to understand? Certainly all the Catholics appointed to the Supreme Court after 1992 believe and hold the Catholic teaching on abortion. And with Dobbs they inflicted it on a secular Republic. Why do you think the GOP nominated Amy Coney Barrett? C'mon.

Yes you can argue that the core of Christianity is the Creed and the Bible - that is true, but to suggest that the leadership of the Churches do not represent Christians and Christianity is bizarre.

[ancianita]

234. To your points about the Dobbs decision... I'll amend my previous claim...

What the GOP christian nationalist lawyers and Catholic justices on the Supreme Court used was an INVENTED SIN to justify overturning Roe in order to control & dominate women by taking away their equal protections for just being born female.

The Catholic Church is officially wrong about that invented sin; and Joe Biden, who is pro-choice, knows it. So does First Lady Jill, and most other Catholics.

The Catholic Church took 400 years to acknowledge that it was wrong about the sun going around Earth, and so it will take time to say it's wrong about abortion. Because it knows there is no biblical basis for that official position; that its position is all about patriarchal dominance over half its believers.

[calguy]

209. So why not stand up against Christian leaders that don't represent you?

If these zealots are not called out and stopped, they will destroy what you supposedly stand for and turn our country into something that looks more like Iran.

As a group, you're known by your leaders. As individuals of the faith, the vast majority of good and honest Christians are too weak to speak out against the injustices their leaders are pushing.

[Mme. Defarge]

277. "Orthodox" in your statement requires a lower case "o".

Last month, the most visible leader of Orthodox Christianity in the country, Archbishop Elpidophoros, said at the antiabortion March for Life that the biblical Mary “freely chose” to bring Jesus into the world, “and God respected her freedom … we march not for coercion.”

Comments like Elpidophoros’ argue for the theological right of women to bodily autonomy and health and say it’s theologically wrong to uniformly choose a fetus over a woman. Like SACRED’s curriculum about the biblical story of creation in Genesis as a process with steps — not a light switch moment as to when “life” begins.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/02/05/abortion-rights-jews-orthodox-catholic-prolife-prochoice/

[Mariana]

89. The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump.

The Christians who didn't support Trump are the exception.

[redqueen]

168. Not sure why this point isn't getting more traction.

It is revealing.

And in every category of religious voters, the more often they go to church, the more likely they are to vote for Republicans
🤔

[Voltaire2]

183. Hopefully the irreligious younger generations

will make this stupid discussion irrelevant.

[Jilly_in_VA]

172. No

The majority of EVANGELICAL Christians cast their ballots for the Slobfather. There is a vast difference between them and the rest of us Christians, TYVM.

[Voltaire2]

185. Sorry but the data doesn't support that.

Overall, 59% of voters who frequently attend religious services cast their ballot for Trump, while 40% chose Biden. Among those who attend services a few times a year or less, the pattern was almost exactly reversed: 58% picked Biden, while 40% voted for Trump.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/#:~:text=Similar%20to%20past%20elections%2C%20religion,Democratic%20candidate%20and%20eventual%20winner%2C

[Mariana]

243. Sorry, that is just false.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/

[shrike3]

343. As your graph points out, Black protestants overwhelmingly supported Biden.

White Christians, of course, did not.

[Mariana]

355. Of course you can select out this or that subgroup of Christans who didn't support Trump.

The fact remains that the majority of Christians did - and probably still do - support him.

[shrike3]

357. Just pointing out nuances, which you did not.

Black churches are the Democratic party's good friend. Black Christians stand in line for hours, withstand indignities to vote that few other groups do. I appreciate that, even if others apparently don't.

[ancianita]

184. The group who did not are still a sizable minority. Biden didn't win by 7,000,000 votes without the Christian vote.

You'll find these numbers to be the same no matter the source, from Brookings to Gallup.

[Mariana]

244. You can select out this or that subgroup of Christians who didn't support Trump.

The fact remains that the majority of Christian voters overall cast their ballots for Trump.

[ancianita]

271. Not a fact in 2020. Look at the NET 2020 numbers.

The first chart measure whosaid they would vote. The second 2020 chart measures who did vote.


In the first chart the breakdown shows those who WOULD vote as subgroup majorities -- the "Whites" categories and "Net Protestants" category voted for more Trump.



?w=523


Later, a majority of Christians cast their ballot for Biden.

[qwlauren35]

359. Hmmm.

If we look binary, you're right. Over 50%.

But when you look closely at the numbers, huge numbers of Christians voted for Biden. It is only among the evangelical Christians that there is an indecent Trump majority.

In a 2023 Gallup poll, less than 30% of American Christians identified as born-again, and less than 15% identified as evangelical.

This says to me that evangelical and born again Christians make a LOT of noise, and as such, people think they are the majority... when they are not.

Again. 40% of all Democrats are Christian. By bashing Christians in general, one is bashing 40% of the Democratic Party. I don't think that's right.

[Mariana]

384. Over 50% is the very defintion of the word "majority".

If we look binary, you're right. Over 50%.

[qwlauren35]

386. Not questioning that.

But we're talking about a significant minority.

As a black person, I know that we are only 10% of all Americans, but we are considered a significant minority in the Democratic Party. Most of us are Christian. So when you bash Christians, you're bashing almost all of the black Democrats in the party.

I don't think that's right.

If I didn't think a significant minority was important, then black people would never be important. Ouch.

[shrike3]

342. White Christians. Black Christians supported Biden in 2020.

[Lunabell]

104. "accept"?

What are they "accepting" and are they holding their nose while "accepting" us?

[JT45242]

162. As opposed to the rejection of the RCC, Baptist, etc..

We welcome our LGBTQ friends. The language is meant to contrast with the groups that spew hate towards the LGBTQ community.

Not trying to trigger with words.

[qwlauren35]

33. It's certain people. Not the religion.

There is nothing in the New Testament that permits killing people. So anyone who is killing people in the name of Christianity got it twisted in a very big way.

Blame the people who are using the Bible as an excuse for the killing.

[Mariana]

88. The people ARE the religon.

[Voltaire2]

208. Christians have been killing each other

and pretty much everyone else in the name of their god(s) for at least 1700 years.

From the outsider’s perspective it is a bloody nationalistic religion that has provided ideological justifications for slavery, colonialism, nationalism, racism, intolerance, homophobia and misogyny.

But sure, that’s all an aberration. It’s a god of love.

[Cha]

55. Those are Fake "Christians" imv .. My

sister is a true Christin and a Dem.. she thinks people should be able to be who they are without Assholes telling them otherwise.

[Celerity]

66. You are employing classic 'No true Scotsman' fallacies, which invalidate your statements

You said:

Those are Fake "Christians" imv

.. My sister is a true Christin

[qwlauren35]

76. Yes, they are all Christians.

Some Christians walk the talk, some twist it to fit their prejudices.

[lapucelle]

150. That doesn't invalidate a statement when the original generalization is dicey at best.

And this type of inductive reasoning (These Christians are X; therefore All Christians are X) is at the heart of many prejudices.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Besides, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is predicated on a very different type of claim; it the function of an exclusive rather than inclusive premise.

[Celerity]

161. Of course it does, they employed one of the most basic (and common) logical fallacies

Their statement:

Those are Fake "Christians" imv

.. My sister is a true Christin

Is classic exclusionary appeal to purity (ie no true Scotsman).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Rather than abandoning the falsified universal generalization or providing evidence that would disqualify the falsifying counterexample, a slightly modified generalization is constructed ad-hoc to definitionally exclude the undesirable specific case and similar counterexamples by appeal to rhetoric. This rhetoric takes the form of emotionally charged but nonsubstantive purity platitudes such as "true", "pure", "genuine", "authentic", "real", etc.

[lapucelle]

219. "The falsified universal generalization" was not made by the poster in question.

It was made by those who originally made the generalized claim about “all Christians”, so the wiki logic explanation is not on point.

[Celerity]

225. The poster's statement stands alone as a textbook 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy. You attempt to negate

that via re-contextualisation in no way refutes that simple fact.

The poster used an exclusionary appeal to purity to try and protect a preferred group.

They attempted to definitionally and subjectively exclude the unwanted via this rhetoric:

Those are Fake "Christians"

and then went further and used the exact wording from the title of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy

.. My sister is a true Christin

It is the same construct that sets off, for example, internecine Islamic conflict that occurs between Sunnis and Shi'ites, or historical sectarian conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Both sides in those two examples claim to be the 'true' manifestations, whilst calling the other sides false, fake, and/or inauthentic manifestations.

[lapucelle]

240. Nope. Not buying it.

One is allowed to counter an ill-advised generalization with an example that gives lie to it.

In the “No true Scotsman” example, the person making the generalization and the person making the “No true Scotsman” claim are one and the same. That is not the case here.

[Celerity]

251. And I do not buy what you are trying to sell. People can decide for themselves, and I stand by my orginal two

pics (and all I said afterward in mutiple replies) as accurate and correct critiques of the poster's clear, textbook use of NTS fallacy.

The other poster engaged in what the two pics's wording states.

Finally.......

you said:

One is allowed to counter an ill-advised generalization with an example that gives lie to it.

which is a false contextualisation, as the other poster used (as shown) textbook NTS fallacy, which is not a valid counter. Anyone can try and counter, but they cannot employ logically flawed rhetoric whilst attempting to counter and not expect their counterargument to be called out as flawed, weighed up and found wanting.

Done here.

[lapucelle]

265. People are perfectly free to assert that their understanding of fundamental precepts

in logic are based on what they've seen in memes or read on wiki.

Whether or not they’ll be taken seriously is another matter entirely.

[Mariana]

77. if they aren't Christians, what are they?

Are they atheists? Are they secretly followers of some other religion?

[JT45242]

107. The majority of US denominations accept LGBTQ+

Unfortunately, we are not the most vocal.

Presbyterian, UCC, DOC, more than half of the Methodist churches, all have stances officially pro-LGBTQ along with many others that have basically left it up to the local church.

Unfortunately, the vocal wings of Southern Baptist and the mega Church non affiliated that are really just southern Baptist in disguise get the media to claim they speak for all Christians.

I am in a DOC congregation that worked with GLAAD to become an open and affirming church.

Go to PRIDE every year and you will see that a lot of Christian groups and churches are actively working with and supporting the LGBTQ+ community.

Don't allow the vocal minority to sour your opinion of all of us, especially the many who actually try to live the 'love your neighbors as yourself ' golden rule common to not only Christianity and the other Abrahamic faiths, but every major religion in the world.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. This times 10

I'm a UU - who rejects the trinity. I think Arius got it right. I was heavily influenced by a Jewish Great Grandmother, grew up in the Black Baptist Church, went to a Catholic Prep school and private University.

Live and let live.

[Voltaire2]

186. Majority of Christian sects is not

equivalent to the majority of christians.

[Mariana]

245. But the denominations with the greatest numbers of people do not.

[Oneironaut]

268. "Accept" is a funny word.

It means different things to different people.

Letting a group of people live isn’t acceptance. It’s the bare minimum. That’s where we are now, though.

Lots of “accepting” people love to pat themselves on the back, but, would turn on LGBT people in a second, given enough propaganda or convenience. It's already happening. A lot of it is lip-service while playing both sides of the fence.

Going to Pride is easy. The hard part is actually taking meaningful action for people who need help and protection. They’re out in the open right now and no one cares.

[rso]

8. TSO

The fact that evangelical Christians are Trump’s biggest and most enthusiastic supporters tells me all I need to know about evangelicals as a group, recognizing of course that not all evangelicals like him and there are always exceptions.

[qwlauren35]

34. It's not true in either direction.

Not all evangelical Christians support Trump and not all Trump supporters are evangelical Christians.

Why not just say "Trump supporters" and don't make assumptions about their religion.

Or say "Christian" without making assumptions about their politics.

[Voltaire2]

174. Ludicrous argument.

More than 80% of white evangelicals voted for Trump in 2020. Overall, the more frequently a voter attended religious services the more likely that voter was a Trump voter.

“Overall, 59% of voters who frequently attend religious services cast their ballot for Trump, while 40% chose Biden. Among those who attend services a few times a year or less, the pattern was almost exactly reversed: 58% picked Biden, while 40% voted for Trump.”

Religiosity is highly correlated with right wing christian nationalism - with support for the now overtly fascist Republican Party.

This is however also highly correlated with race. African American voters, for example, don’t fit this pattern.

More here: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/#:~:text=Similar%20to%20past%20elections%2C%20religion,Democratic%20candidate%20and%20eventual%20winner%2C

Demanding that we not discuss the religious aspect of a white christian nationalist political party is fucking ludicrous.

[Mariana]

78. It isn't just the Evangelicals. The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/08/30/most-white-americans-who-regularly-attend-worship-services-voted-for-trump-in-2020/

[rso]

175. TSO

But its indisputable that among the Christian denominations, evangelicals are Trump’s biggest supporters.

[UniqueUserName]

221. Trans-Siberian Orchestra?

Tso products? Transportation Security officer?

If you're acronym does not appear in the top searches on Google you probably shouldn't use it for your title. But of course you're welcome to do whatever you want.

[rso]

229. TSO

Are you disputing my actual comments or the TSO ?

[UniqueUserName]

237. Why such an adversarial comment?

I've asked you what TSO meant and you've chosen not to give the answer. I explained to you that I Googled it; it doesn't show up in the results.

[AmBlue]

250. I don't know what TSO means either

Can someone enlighten us?

[Voltaire2]

329. Apparently RSO will not inform us what TSO means.

[rso]

297. TSO

Why does it have to stand for anything ?

[Mariana]

246. That is true, but as you see, the majority of non-Evangelical Chrisitians also voted for Trump.

There is nothing to be gained by pretending that isn't so.

[rso]

298. TSO

Sure, not disagreeing with you on that, my only point is that among all religions and denominations, evangelicals are the most enthusiastic supporters of the orange clown.

[riversedge]

187. Thanks for graphic post.

[thucythucy]

254. I keep seeing the statement about "white Christians"

while noting that, according to the data you cite, more than ninety percent of Black Protestants voted for Biden.

I suspect the same is true for Black Catholics.

The African American community is the most reliable part of the Democratic coalition, and over and over again we rely on Black voters, especially women, to save the nation.

The Black church is a major part of that community and historically has stood with Democrats, ever since the election of 1960. It has been a driving force in getting out the Democratic vote.

Then too, Black Christian leaders have been at the forefront of many of our struggles for social justice, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. being the most prominent example.

I worry that the denigration of all Christians--done I suspect mostly by whites--threatens to alienate the core of our coalition. If nothing else, it minimizes and marginalizes Black contributions to pretty much every presidential race we've won in the last half century.

As an aside: President Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ, and as a freshman Senator gave the keynote speech at the UCC's annual convention, which may have been the first time he was given a national platform from which to speak.

[Voltaire2]

332. Objecting to specific religious beliefs is not 'denigrating' anyone.

If we follow your advice, and stop objecting to the truly awful, stupid, harmful, and repulsive religious beliefs that the awful shitty fascist christians keep broadcasting all over the place, apparently because all the wonderful black christians will start voting republican due to being so terribly upset with us objecting to racist white christian beliefs, we are rendered mute. We are muzzled. We must be silent while fascist christian theocrats flood the internet with their propaganda.

[dpibel]

9. "Have some respect for people's different beliefs. It costs nothing."

Maybe you should tell that to the 7 Mountains people.

Or all the "Christians" who want to control other people's bodies.

I agree with you: It costs nothing to let other people believe what they want to believe.

But there's a big clot of people calling themselves christians who don't agree with that.

Counsel with them, and then get back to me.

[NoRethugFriends]

10. well for me this is a part of it

From op

"One of my cousins is an evangelical Christian. her sister is a lesbian and I think she struggles with it, but there is a lot of love between them. "

This woman struggles to deal with the fact that her sister is living the life that is right for her.
She shouldn't have to struggle. Religion has poisoned her on this and she allows it.

It's like she gets a prize for accepting her sister.

[qwlauren35]

29. She's not allowing it.

And that is my point. The Bible includes some passages that are negative about gay people. Nobody can change that. They have to choose to believe differently.

The Bible also suggests that slavery is okay. Nobody can change that. You have to consciously reject it.

The Bible is very old and represents 2000 year old views. Not all of them make sense today. But I can accept that people don't want to reject the entire Bible because of a few passages.

If my cousin has people around her who are homophobic, then she just has to have a stronger heart. And that can be a struggle.

I think I am more accepting of people who overcome prejudices that surround them. It's like deprogramming yourself.

By the way, I included that on purpose. I didn't have to. I don't think Christianity is perfect. It doesn't fit me. It's not for everyone. But I respect those who hold onto the concepts of loving one another without exception.

[lees1975]

11. There is a lot of ignorance about Christianity

here, and elsewhere.

Conservative evangelicals and the broader group of politically infilitrated denominations and groups represent less than a fourth of all Christians in this country. And even among those groups which doctrinally and theologically fall in those categories, it's only the majority of their Caucasian members who have allowed the MAGA cult to bring them to heresy. The African American, Latino and Asian members are majority Democrat, significantly in the case of the first two. I'm currently attending a predominantly Latino, independent church that identifies theologically with Evangelical theology and there's not a peep about MAGA or Trump, and intentional effort on the part of the leadership to keep it that way. I've seen several of our members, including a few of the other Caucasians, volunteer for various Democratic candidates in our precinct. During the mid-terms, when several of us volunteered to canvas in Wisconsin for the Democrats running for office, everyone in the group was a member of an Evangelical church.

We can see through many of the self-proclaimed "leaders" and their political motivations. There are many of us working to make sure that Trump and the MAGA cult doesn't get close to government again, and doesn't infiltrate and turn our churches into dead apostate graveyards.

So be true Democrats and accept the fact that there are people who hold to the party's ideals and values because we are Christian.

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/

[NoRethugFriends]

13. why in the world do hold to these values because you're Christian

If you were not would you not hold to these values?

[lees1975]

21. Because

there is complete consistency between the things Democrats value, and for which they are advocates and promote as a political party, and what I believe as a Christian are the values preached and taught by Jesus which make up the Christian gospel. I am a Democrat because I am a pacifist, and I am pacifist because that is a core Christian value. I am a Democrat because the party is rooted in protection of the guaranteed individual rights in the Constitution and because soul freedom is a core Christian value.

I can't say whether or not I would hold these values if I were not Christian, I don't have that frame of reference.

[NoRethugFriends]

24. Concerning your last paragraph

Wow, just wow! You seem to be saying but you don't know if you would have these values without the religion?

[lees1975]

50. Why is that a big "wow"?

I grew up in a home in which my parents, and the people around whom I grew up, valued and taught me integrity, equality, pacifism, generosity, respect for others, good stewardship, patience, simplicity of life, a sense of community responsibility, compassion, the sanctity of human life, intellectual freedom, passion for education and thirst for knowledge, the sanctity of marriage.

I know people who have these values without any religious belief, or from a different faith than my own. For me, they've been inseparable from my religious faith, and they've led me to my political affiliation and perspective as a far left wing, liberal, progressive Democrat.

[sinkingfeeling]

196. Were you taught those values you stated in your first paragraph

are exclusive to being Christian? Because they're not. My list of values or morals is almost exactly (I believe in the sanctity of all life) like yours. And I am an atheist. I believe people can be good without God.

[Goodheart]

188. Wow, that last sentence.

"I can't say whether or not I would hold these values if I were not Christian, I don't have that frame of reference."

I'm sorry, but morality preceded and exists apart from YOUR OWN beliefs.

[TheKentuckian]

272. The question was individual not anthropological

the poster was asked about a perspective they cannot have from lived experiences and the responses to saying just that then acts if they were invalidating someone else's by having come out of the environment and rearing that contributed to who they became.

There us no "wow" here, this is very normal and it is the responses that seem to need the weird level of validation of SPEAK AND MORE CRITICALLY KNOW (not just emphasize) FROM MY EXPERIENCES AND BACKGROUND!!!

This can't be done. It is not a rational expectation.

[dpibel]

35. Women's autonomy

There are the MAGA christianists, whom you represent as a (frankly terrifying) quarter of all self-identified christians.

But you do remember, I trust, that the Catholic church proclaims that women do not have the right to control their own bodies.

And the number of Catholics actually exceeds the number of MAGA christianists you propose.

There are a metric fuckton of people out there who identify as Christians who believe they have the right, based on their religion, to tell other people what to do or not to do.

Sure. There are people who follow the Jesus part of Christianity and tend to identify with liberal values. And there are way more who are Paulists, but call themselves Christians.

And that is a problem for all of you who want people to be so kind to people who call themselves Christians for the purpose of justifying their hatred.

[lees1975]

53. Maybe that's what the original poster is thinking.

The term and label "Christian" gets put on a whole lot of philosophy and lifestyle that isn't, by its own definition, "Christian." It takes a little discernment to distinguish between the pseudo-Christian ideology that uses the terms and labels to its political advantage, and those who, as you say, "follow the Jesus part of Christianity and tend to identify with liberal values." I'd say that without the Jesus part, it's pseudo-Christian, not Christian by definition.

And trust me, I get where the anger comes from. I'm angry myself, when people who are identified with Christian faith align themselves with an antichrist. It's obvious to me, unfortunately, not so obvious to some. But instead of venting by bashing everything, my approach is to try and change some minds. And that hasn't been as frustrating as it might seem.

https://signalpress.blogspot.com/

[Voltaire2]

122. Claiming your version of christianity is the real

version while all those others you disagree with are fake versions is a ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy.

Every Christian sect has its own interpretation of the religion. Each is just as valid as the next.

[lees1975]

166. Yeah, I've heard the "no true Scotsman" argument on this subject too many times to count.

There is a standard for doctrine and theology in Christianity that is objective. It's not a matter of this person or that person and their interpretation of it. But there are some false assumptions in that argument. First is the claim that every sect "has its own interpretation of the religion." Comparatively, there is very little difference on the core, foundational doctrines of Christianity between the sects. Differences in styles of worship and approaches to practice are not as varied as critics claim, even across the spectrum of Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox theology, or among the various branches and sects of Protestantism.

Like everything else, when someone makes a claim that this is a doctrine or practice everyone should, or must, follow, they need to support the claim with evidence from the objective source. Variations and deviations from the objective standard is where cults and false religion develops. A group can form, claim to be Christian by using symbols and language that sound familiar, but if that group either doesn't recognize the objective source of doctrine and theology, or alters it to fit their perspective, it is not Christian by definition.

Christianity has been manipulated by political power at least since the time of Constantine, and a lot of doctrine, theology and practice came about, not as a result of following the objective standard of the Christian gospel, but from the authoritative alterations of it made using the authority of the state as political rulers used the church to legitimize their own rule. Trump and the MAGA cult are yet another version of that infiltration, and they're using some of the false presuppositions, such as Christian nationalism, which has been around in some form of "Anglo-Israelism" throughout much of the history of Christianity in America and in the British Empire. The "no true Scotsman" deflection doesn't fit.

[Voltaire2]

179. You lost me at objective standard.

There is no objective standard for a faith based revelatory belief system. There are institutionalized belief frameworks- that is probably what you mean, but they are frameworks built around literal nonsense.

[lees1975]

191. There is an objective standard around which the doctrine and theology of every organized Christian church is formed.

It's called the New Testament, and it is the cited source of doctrine, theology and practice for the Catholic church, the branches of Eastern Orthodoxy, every mainline Protestant branch and denomination. Read their confessions, doctrinal statements and thousands of works related to the subject. Then see if "no true Scotsman" works.

[Voltaire2]

197. The gospels are interpreted by each sect

as they see fit. Yes you can point at some ancient books (but even then you are pointing at a specific subset of gospels chosen by the winning side of a long and bloody factional dispute) but you can’t objectively declare one interpretation correct and another incorrect.

The shitty christian sects have their shitty christian academics churning out their shitty belief justifications from the same canonical gospels.

[lees1975]

295. Before you comment on this, do some research.

Theoretically, you would be correct, if one sect declares its interpretation right, against the other interprerations being wrong. But that's not what they do, and if you knew the historical background, the interpretations and how similar all sects of Christians are in their doctrine and theology, you'd get a different impression than "they all have their own interpretation and one can't declare the other wrong" because of that. Varying interpretations, even at varying times in history, are not as different as you seem to think they are.

[Voltaire2]

296. Oh I see. Thanks.

So when christians declare homosexuality an abomination, based on their sect’s interpretation of the common holy books, they are expressing the shared religious beliefs of all christians?

I didn’t know that.

[qwlauren35]

73. 40%

Christians who are Democrats are typically pro-Choice, even though they may feel that abortion is wrong and should never happen.

Wouldn't it be better to bash Republicans or conservatives instead of bashing 40% of your own party?

[madaboutharry]

14. This topic is interesting.

I hope that people appreciate loving people and see the good they bring to the world. I also always say Merry Christmas to people. Why wouldn’t I? I agree, we need to have more respect.

I think it is the hypocrites. It is the people who are hateful and bigoted and are hurtful to the vulnerable that people react to. It is the Christian nationalists who have no respect for those who practice other faiths and think the Bible should replace the Constitution that I think people have a big issue with.

It is all very complicated and it doesn’t have to be. People need to learn to let others be.

[bdamomma]

372. Very interesting conversation

and your last sentence is true. "People need to learn to let others be". It's all about diversity and freedom to worship the way we believe in.

I remember my father saying "he didn't wear his religion on his sleeve". Meaning keeping it private.

[hatrack]

15. Because of their hate - not from all Christians, but from those seeking to destroy this democracy.

And those seeking to destroy this democracy are my enemies, and they are the majority of Christians in this country, I'm afraid.

They're the majority because you don't actually have to do anything to be a Christian in America any more. All you need is guns and hysteria and ignorance and hate and the empty statement that "I'm a Christian".

Hell, you don't even need to go to church anymore.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/08/us/politics/donald-trump-evangelicals-iowa.html

[electric_blue68]

17. I don't know if they're the majority. They're just the loudest, and unfortunately got a hold of The Rethuglican Party...

There's lots of Moderate to Liberal Christians out there.

[hatrack]

23. If so, then they'd better start standing up to shit like this . . .

A new bill introduced in the Missouri House would force teachers to register as sex offenders if they use the names and pronouns of transgender children or otherwise support them and their identity.

HB2885, filed on Thursday, February 29 by state Representative Jamie Gragg (R-Ozark), would make it a Class E felony for teachers or school counselors to aid the “social transition” of a child — meaning that a teacher "provides support, regardless of whether the support is material, information, or other resources to a child regarding social transition."

EDIT

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/missouri-bill-makes-teachers-sex-offenders-if-they-accept-trans-kids-pronouns-42014864

Here's State Rep. Jamie Gragg's campaign website:

My Promise
To stand firm even when the truth and right are not popular.
To keep my promises even if it takes extra effort.
To refuse to be mediocre but instead, be a representative of integrity.

Universal Belief
Within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems men face.
-Ronald Reagan

My Prayer
I confess my lack and ask the Lord to remind me daily to be humble, honest and kind. But most importantly, always living a life that brings Him glory.

https://electjamieraygragg.wordpress.com/

State Representative Jamie Gragg, a Republican, represents Christian County (District 140) in the Missouri House of Representatives. He was elected to his first two-year term in November 2022.

In addition to his legislative duties, he is the owner and operator of his own wood working business, “Ozark Mountain Tops and Art Works”. Previously he spent many years in camping ministries as well as entertaining in Branson, MO. Gragg is a graduate from Ozark Public Schools and Southwest Baptist University in Bolivar, MO.

Gragg’s family has resided in Christian County for more than 10 generations. Gragg currently lives in Ozark. He has one daughter and three sons, as well as one granddaughter and two grandsons. Gragg regularly attends Victory Baptist Church.

https://house.mo.gov/memberdetails.aspx?district=140

So loving, so caring, so . . . . Christian.

[Mariana]

82. Yes. Those lawmakers are Christians, who were elected by Chirstians.

[snpsmom]

124. I fear that this bill is not a one-off

but instead will be replicated in other states. Not looking forward to my future as a felon.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. Yes, they are the majority - see the figures in reply #78 that show the majority of Christians voted for Trump

in both 2016 and 2020.

[summer_in_TX]

44. There are "Christians" and then there are Christians. They are not the same.

If you try to model your life on the teachings of Jesus, then humility keeps you from speaking much about all the good you and your church are doing. Scripture says that doing good deeds in secret is better than doing it in public for all to admire.

Those who use and abuse the label Christian as a social club, or worse to fool people into thinking you are a good person so you can manipulate them for money or power are guilty of defamation of the character of Jesus as revealed in his teachings.

As for me, I was a rabid agnostic, contemptuous of Christians. When my husband and I married, I didn't know any ministers and I sure didn't want to know any. We had a friend who loved us marry us and had her ordained in a mail order church.

I stereotyped Christians with all the negatives, that they were narrow-minded, judgmental, hypocritical, uptight, not especially bright, sexually repressed, manipulative, always trying to convert people, spiritually arrogant, Republican-leaning, joyless, unloving, and collectively oppressive.

My husband was invited to try the choir in the local United Methodist Church by our next door neighbor who knew he was very musical. I went to support him. Everyone was surprisingly warm and welcoming but I was ready to fend off anyone trying to manipulate and convert me.

But no one tried. As I relaxed and explored, I started to realize these people didn't fit my stereotypes at all. They were bright, competent, warmly friendly, laughed a lot, and thrived on jumping in to be of help to others. Many were liberal. The other stereotypes didn't fit either.

Those do fit some people, maybe even quite a few Christian Nationalists and those from very conservative churches. But I'd argue they are being taught incorrect theology, because they don't seem familiar with the many passages urging justice, mercy, lifting up the poor, sick, prisoner, the marginalized, and welcoming the immigrant.

What made, and still makes, sense to me is something Joseph Campbell said in the Bill Moyers interview on PBS with him on his book "The Power of Myth." Campbell said that myth was the attempt of people to explain something that is beyond human ability to convey in words, but that it points to truths. Those words surprised me and I started wondering what was the truth that Christians were trying to point to.

Turns out there's a lot of truth there: that right behavior involves insuring kindness, generosity, going out of your way to help someone needing help, and justice; that the selfish rich would be brought low and the poor and meek were to be lifted up; that all people are created in the image of God; that we should be reconciled to one another to be reconciled to God; that in offering forgiveness to others we too experience forgiveness. I don't think Christianity is the only pathway or the best, but it has a lot of truths that resonated with me. It has flaws too, as everything we believe in does. Human nature is flawed, everything we are involved in has our flaws.

[leftstreet]

19. Why do you assume rejecting mysticism equals hate?

Good grief

[SlimJimmy]

49. Good grief, indeed.

One persons mysticism is another persons truth. Be careful, your bias is showing.

[Lunabell]

108. "truth"?

Last edited Sun Mar 3, 2024, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)

And there are a lot of people whose "truth" is that the world is flat, that vaccines cause autism and that the orange blobfather won the 2020 election. So much for some people's "truth."

[redqueen]

173. Precisely. The idea that anyone should be expected to show deference

to anyone's imaginary anything, is logically bankrupt and a potential tool for manipulation.

Ideas are just ideas. They are not people and deserve no deference, but should be criticized and examined and tested, and if not useful (let alone harmful), one would expect them to be discarded.

[phylny]

199. We have proven, the world is not flat, we HAVE proven vaccines do not cause autism,

and have proven that Joe Biden won the 2020 election.

No one has yet been able to "prove" that God, or some sort of being, does or does not exist. If you can, have at it and enlighten us. I'm not even sure - but I have faith that a being exists who created everything over billions and billions of years and a universe that I cannot comprehend. It may be the God that we know colloquially and through the Bible, it may be something very different. I can't explain how planet Earth and the universe came into existence without something preceding it. I can't even wrap my head around it. I can't explain how we as humans evolved, though I believe in evolution. I don't believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and that everything was created in six days. I can't understand why we are on Earth and form lasting relationships, experience love, hate, despair, and delight.

I'm Christian. I do not believe I have some magic right to Heaven and that my way is the only way. I do not believe others are condemned to hell, or whatever. I hope there is a Heaven and that I'll see my departed dogs, friends, and family there. I would never, ever, shit on anyone else's beliefs when I don't have the knowledge or ability to disprove them.

There are a LOT of people like me.

[Lunabell]

233. Ok, so prove to me that historical jesus actually existed.

Prove to me he walked on water, healed the sick, changed water into wine and that he died and was magically risen from the dead.

Those things can't be proven and neither can his existence.

And as I said in another post, look at what has been done to innocent people in the name of their religion and have a little more compassion and empathy for their feelings about religion. And also, DU christians should do what their jesus told them to do and turn the other cheek.

[phylny]

278. LOL, that's rich,

you telling me what to do. Try harder to be nice.

I don’t need to prove anything to you.

[Lunabell]

281. I guess your christianity has its limits.

And turning the other cheek is one of them. Have a nice day and try taking some of your own advice about kindness.

[Voltaire2]

279. We have pretty good theories about planetary development.

That really isn't a mystery. We indeed don't know how the universe 'started'., or if that even makes sense. However substituting 'god did it' for 'we don't really know' is an intellectually dubious move. It is commonly referred to as the 'god of the gaps' argument.

Also do you actually believe your god(s) "created everything over billions and billions of years" - an ongoing actively intervening deity? That has a whole host (pun intended) of problems, especially if you also believe your god(s) are omnipotent and benevolent.

[SlimJimmy]

349. Yes, the vaccine will prevent Covid spread and keep you from getting Covid.

I guess it can work both ways, huh?

[SarahD]

20. You kind of answered your question.

Creationism and forgiveness of sins. Creationism is only an example of the anti-science agenda promoted to replace government and civil law under the banner of freedom of religion. Forgiveness of sins allows the faithful to do horrible things to each other, secure in the belief that their God will clear the slate. Right now, we have legions of Christians supporting Trump because he helps them impose their religious code on the rest of us. Can't get more hypocritical than that. If you could get your fellow believers to behave better, to act more Christian, things would be nicer. Not your fault, of course. You don't have the authority to restrict membership.

[qwlauren35]

62. I don't see it that way.

Big Bang is a theory and Evolution is a theory. We weren't there and we don't know.

There are people who believe that nature had help. I really don't think we have proof either way.

As for forgiveness of sins, no one is perfectly good all the time. Road rage is not loving kindness. If I wrack my brain, I can probably come up with other negativity. Like eating too much at the buffet. But to not get into heaven because of road rage or occasional gluttony seems harsh. Instead, acknowledge and try to do better. Sin no more. If you don't truly repent, if you don't truly feel bad about what you did... That's between you and God.

A lot of people twist the concept . They are hypocrites. But not everyone twists it.

In Buddhism, we have "eradicating bad karma". If you do something bad, there will be a boomerang effect, but if you also do positive things, the boomerang might not hit as hard.

Doing negative things is part of human nature. It takes will to be good. We slip. And some people completely give into it. I don't think that is the fault of the religion.

[Voltaire2]

118. You actually uttered "evolution is a theory"

as if that somehow reduces the validity of evolutionary theory.

Science doesn’t provide absolute truth, it develops theories that best explain observable phenomena. Religion provides its ‘absolute truths’ and does so with no evidence at all.

“We weren’t there and we don’t know”.

Evolution can be demonstrated in a lab in real time.

The CMBR is direct evidence of the ‘big bang’. It is literally all around us.

The fact that you deny basic science, and do so demonstrating profound ignorance is an example of why many of us find religion toxic.

[tazkcmo]

218. Yep

As far as theories go, gravity is a pretty good one.

[SarahD]

239. Oh yeah?

It's only by the power of prayer that you're not floating off toward the moon right now.

[SarahD]

238. It's a fallback position.

When Christians are losing the argument they retreat to the idea that all theories are equal, that a theory is just an idea, so might as well believe what the Bible says. Then we get false equivalencies such as the idea that road rage is the same as overeating. Nice, intelligent people believe this stuff. Fortunately, those with a sense of humanity recognize an obligation to keep their ideas out of the public schools and out of our legal code. Thank God!

[JI7]

22. Do these Christian Democrats agree with the right wing Christians ?

The right wing Christians bring up their religion to support the things they want.

If Christian Democrats don't agree with them them they should have no problem with this.

[Sympthsical]

26. Religion is a chosen association

Therein lay a large difference in these things.

No one chooses to be Black or LGBT or a woman. And so, when there is criticism of someone solely because of their race, gender, or sex, there's going to be pushback. That is bigotry.

Chosen associations are different. We wouldn't say, "We should be nicer to Republicans. There are some good ones out there." And hey, that's true. I'm friends with Republicans who are lovely people. However, when we're discussing the national cultural and political scene, the Republican party - the association - is not my friend. In fact, they work very hard to deprive people of rights and surrender national wealth to the few while the many go hungry, suffer illness, and perish.

So, at the end of the day it's like, someone can have a bad association and be a lovely person, but I'm still going to talk shit about their association.

No, I'm not going to go nuts on someone solely for their religion. I have religious friends. My whole family is Catholic. I don't wander into the room, "Where is your sky God now you ignorant theist?!" Because I am not an 18 year old college freshman who just discovered atheism for the first time and thinks "evangelizing asshole" is a personality. (It's worse when they're my age and still that)

But, you know. If you have a problem with how people react to the brand, it's up to you to change it. It's not up to me. I'm not a Christian. And let's be honest, every time Christians are in the news, it ain't because they did something awesome.

I'd be like if I subscribed to Playboy for the articles. Yeah, there were great articles in there. But there was also a history abuse, assault, sexism, racism, and everything else. If I signed up for it and didn't have to, that's a choice. The bad stuff comes with it, too, and people are going to have a say about all that bad stuff.

I won't be a dick to an individual over religion (unless warranted), but y'all have some work to do if you choose to associate with it.

[NNadir]

48. This is very similar to how I feel. You have stated it well.

[PurgedVoter]

28. The paradox of Christianity makes evangelicals poor at Christianity.

My first encounter with evangelical Christianity was when I was five. I knew it was messed up then and I had only been talking for a few months. Dr. McIntire. Charles Curtis McIntire Jr. had a radio program and he was telling a story where he took a native chief up in his plane in Africa, showed him the ground below and basically associated technology with Christianity and converted him.

I didn't say anything at the time because my grandfather loved Dr. McIntire. At the time, I did not assume that McIntire made the whole thing up. I just thought that claiming the work of man as the work of Jesus wasn't right.

I heard about a man who read the bible for every year that he lived, and decided to start early. I think my parents got the Old Testament out of my way so I started on the New Testament. I didn't grasp a lot of it, but I did grasp that praying in a closet or praying, "
Hear me a sinner, have mercy on me." where appropriate behavior and trying to appear holy wasn't Christian. Still to this day when I see a small indication of faith, I take it as a sign. When I see large ones or lots of them, I take it as a warning.

No bias against Christians here. I have a strong bias against people who claim loudly to be Christian. Deacons and priests have an excuse for some of it, since it is their job, but I watch them carefully and it takes years for me to relax the vigilance.

Someone who says they are saved and have Jesus in their heart, get only one strike before they are out. Till then I remain open minded.

[LearnedHand]

30. Do you really not see the difference

between your personal belief/private experience and the militant woman-hating public christianity intent on destroying liberal society and women and LGTBQ people and non-white people? I mean, no one is against you or your right to your beliefs. I, and others on this board, I suppose, vehemently oppose the christianity being shoved down our throats in congress and state houses and the courts and schools and colleges. It's eviscerating our own liberties. And our right to exist.

[qwlauren35]

72. 40% of Democrats are Protestant Christians

So, I don't think they are trying to do what you are talking about about. When you bash Christians in general, you are bashing 40% of the Democratic party. Is that really what you want to do?

[Duncan Grant]

285. Christians are not victims of bashing. What an outrageous statement.

Christians are coddled and pampered by every powerful institution in this country. They’re not bashed by any stretch of the imagination. My advice? Grow a thicker skin and practice the humility found in Christ’s ministry. If one feels disrespected or insulted, that’s ego, not Christ.

[LearnedHand]

287. I said christianity not christians

[Tribetime]

36. I agree one hundred percent a lot of hate on here towards christians

Who are democrat. If that's the norm here I say piss off to this forum and I've been here 20 yrs

[dpibel]

38. Hate?

What's your definition?

Disagreement?

Saying people shouldn't try to impose their beliefs on other people?

Saying that people who believe that the Bible is the literal truth are, frankly, nuts?

I mean, it's pretty clear that christianists hate nonbelievers.

But what is this hate you see here?

[qwlauren35]

64. Yup, you did it.

You called them nuts because of their reverence for the Bible. It's a belief. It's faith. You disagree and that's fine.

But calling them nuts is mean.

[muriel_volestrangler]

99. The literal claim of the Bible is that the Earth is 6000 years old

And the point is that is, with what we know now, nuts. I know that most Christians understand that the Earth is billions of years old. But the DUer did not calling all, or most, Christians, nuts. They're calling those who say the entire Bible is literally true nuts.

It's not "reverence for the Bible"; it's a refusal to look at the real world and accept that parts of the Bible are wrong. And that has consequences; such as the insistence of those who think the Bible is infallible that homosexuality is evil.

[Lunabell]

113. It's Democrat.

With a capital "D."

[shrike3]

344. You're right. I've been here as long as you and I've seen it.

OTOH, people have the right to their opinions, and a good many DUers hold those opinions. So long as they keep them out of the Christian safe haven groups, I don't have a problem with it.

[Kennah]

37. I believe there is as broad a spectrum in Christianity as there is Politics

There are stereotypical Christian Identity Christians who are White Supremacists and Bigots. For them, Jesus was white with a swimmer's body and if only he'd had a machine gun he could have done what he should have done to the Romans.

Other Christians are those who ascribe to what I believe are the real teachings of Jesus. Agape love for others, helping the least of us, and not worshipping material wealth.

There are still other Christians who go to Church because it's social and community contact.

John Fugelsang says he loves Elvis, loves Jesus, and feels much the same way about both. He'd love to hang out with them both, but both of their fan clubs have members who scare the hell outta him.

[Silent3]

39. Avoiding alienating allies make sense. Respect for *someone's right* to their beliefs also makes sense.

Respect for the beliefs themselves? No, sorry, there's nothing automatic there for me, especially if you throw in something as ridiculous as creationism.

[Dem2theMax]

40. I have always wondered why this is allowed on DU.

You won't see anyone getting away with bashing any other religion. But Christianity is fair game in this place. Have often wondered why the owners of the website don't do anything about it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. Christians have massive support in American culture. They don't need special exemptions from bashing

In an ideal world, we would bash Christianity, Islam, capitalism, socialism and all other ways of thinking for their effects and aims, without saying "ooh, that one's a religion, we have to leave it alone, no matter what it says". Minority religions often get a pass, because they get genuine hatred from others. Christians are still in a comfortable position in the USA. They don't need extra privileges on top of that.

[Lunabell]

112. I always bash all religions.

They all believe they are the chosen ones.

And even liberal ones who "accept" us being gay don't see that they are in league with their more hateful/vocal counterparts. Being gay is not a choice/path/lifestyle. Believing in a fairytale is.

[ForgedCrank]

256. If I am

to understand you correctly, are you saying that being civil and accepting of others is dependent on how popular their or our opinions or beliefs are?

Christians have massive support in American culture. They don't need special exemptions from bashing

[muriel_volestrangler]

339. No, this is not about "being civil and accepting of others"; it's whether their views are beyond criticism

because they are held as part of a religion. They shouldn't be; but some people say, for instance, "look at the slack Islam gets, despite its poor record on women; all religions should get that". Islam does get some slack, and I think that's because it also gets genuine hatred, and I think therefore people feel sorry for Muslims. But when Christians, with all their power in the USA, can be misogynistic, they should be called out on it. If we could decrease the Islamophobia, then it could be treated as just another set of ideas that can be criticized whenever they're wrong.

[ForgedCrank]

340. Thats what

I mean. You are basing it on it's popularity. I find that to be not grounded in reason.

[muriel_volestrangler]

346. From a simple point of numbers, you can say you start by criticising the most common bad views

and then move on the the minor positions later; that means tackling the influential Christian ideas first. That is "reasonable". It also depends on how much you want to be seen as joining in with some very nasty Islamophobes; those people hate Muslims, who are a minority without power, for even existing, and it doesn't feel great to be piling on with "and Islam's attitude to women needs reforming too".

As I said, in an ideal world, the hatred wouldn't be there, and it'd all be about the ideas. But this world is not ideal.

[haele]

380. Criticism of religion is like comedy.

Kicking up is always okay, kicking down is usually questionable. Also, factual reality rarely gets in the way of emotional reality and opinions.

I find Blasphemy and False Witness far more offensive and showing hatred of that particular religion than criticism of it. If a belief system can't stand criticism, there's some serious underlaying problems with that belief. Maybe some feet of clay going on.

If God created "us", God is big enough to take the heat for their creative choices. A God, a supernatural being, doesn't need protection from mere mortals. However, if you're worshipping a supernatural entity, you really need to be careful about people claiming to speak for that entity...

Anyway, it's all words until some picks up a heavy object and stops being a grown up because their feelings are hurt. I don't take it personally what people say about what I believe, its all about the actions rather than words, after all.

I actually feel sorry for the Jimmy Carter/Dolly Parton type Christians; they are constantly hauling the Christian bullies, grifters, heretics, and hypocrites along with their own grace and works - it's the Cross they are forced to bear when they take on their religion.

Haele

[muriel_volestrangler]

385. Yes, the "punching up/punching down" metaphor is a good way to put it (nt)

[Lunabell]

109. Well, that's just not true.

I'm a religion basher. All of them. And I "get away" with it because fairy tales aren't real.

[onenote]

203. But you vote for candidates that are openly religious don't you?

You know, a candidate like Joe Biden?

[Lunabell]

232. What does that have to do with voting for him?

I think Jimmy Carter is one of the greatest examples of a good man, but it's not his religion that makes him that way. Same thing with President Biden. Just because I think that religions are ridiculous, that doesn't make others any more or less a good person. They are both wonderful people who are seemingly, in my opinion, stuck in old paradigms.

If I only admired atheists, I probably couldn't admire anyone. I personally think bill maher and elon musk are hateful pigs. Both atheists. Both trash.

[onenote]

255. I was just wondering whether you were okay voting for a candidate that believes in fairy tales.

The answer is that you are, which is fine.

[Lunabell]

261. I vote for the person who will act in my interests

and the best interests of the country. His fairytale beliefs don't make a difference unless those beliefs make the candidate support positions that hurt me, others or the country. Besides, what chance does an atheist have in getting elected in this country? The prejudices of religious people would squelch any chance of an atheist being elected.

[Voltaire2]

291. I despise the fact that almost all of our candidates and office holders feel compelled to

brag about their religiosity at every opportunity.

But yeah I vote for them anyway. Poor persecuted christians. /s

[phylny]

110. Exactly.

It’s never tolerated toward any other religion.

[CincyDem]

204. Ahhh...excuse me for a moment...step into my synagogue and we'll have a little chat about that one.

[Sibelius Fan]

41. People are entitled to believe what they will. That doesn't mean that nonbelievers need

to think that there is an ounce of truth in those beliefs, nor do they need to keep quiet about their nonbelief.

Respect the believer’s right to believe, disrespect their ridiculous childish beliefs.

It’s just like politics: I can respect a Republican’s right to believe whatever policies they will. That doesn’t mean I need to respect the policies.

[qwlauren35]

92. Can't agree.

As soon as you use words like ridiculous and childish, you are being mean and hurtful.

And you are being mean and hurtful to members of the DU community.

Do you find it personally satisfying to put down something someone believes in?

I am Buddhist and believe in reincarnation. I am perfectly okay with the fact that most Americans don't share my beliefs. But it is not nice to say that believing in reincarnation is ridiculous and childish. It's very hurtful. It is meant to be insulting. Hah. I spit on your stupid beliefs.

40% of all Democrats are Christian. Why is it necessary to spit on their beliefs instead of saying that your beliefs are different. Because believing that there is no supreme deity is a belief. NONE OF US KNOW. That's why it's a belief.

[Sibelius Fan]

228. Religion's most-facile trick was to intimidate people into fearing that religious beliefs cannot

be criticized, that they are beyond rational evaluation. That’s a conceit that applies to no other aspect of the human condition.

Of course, there’s always a chance religious beliefs are true. I give them under a 1% chance. Most religious people demand a 50-50 chance. Why? Such hubris. If I aver that my pet cat will learn to speak English this week, do a have a 50-50 chance of that coming true? If I believe strongly enough, will it happen? Or maybe I take the religionist’s view that my cat has indeed learned how to speak, but they’re just choosing to remain silent…sort of like god these days.

[Voltaire2]

293. lol. A core christian belief is reincarnation.

It's just that many christians don't know their core religious beliefs.

[Hope22]

45. You have no idea what my religious preference is.

Without making some personal judgement I have no idea what others preferences are. The idea of freedom of religion is that we can each choose and also that we do not force our religious preference on others. The War on Christmas and saying Merry Christmas is an invention of FOX ENTERTAINMENT. I say Happy Holidays out of respect for all people. Good luck this OP. I don’t know what you are picking at but I believe there is a religious forum to take this issue up in. It’s hard for me to hear you complain when you have the entire House holding the Nation hostage for your religion. You have the Supreme Court holding everyone beholden to your religion. What I wish is to feel safe IN MY COUNTRY. I am free to disengage with DU if I don’t feel welcome here. DU is free to cut my feed if they deem me unwelcome.

[Hekate]

52. I got here in 2002, & spent many years defending Christians & Christianity. I kept a list of liberal religious groups...

… who were and are our allies, just so I could recite them here when DUers went too far. Of the intolerant RW I would say to myself and others that their definition of God was not my definition of God, but let’s all be tolerant and not tar all Christians with the same brush.

Many, many years. And then I quit.

I don’t remember exactly when, but it was after I realized that when the rabid RW / the Evangelicals talk about God they are not in any way talking about the Divine presence experienced or striven for in my life. Instead of my continually trying to reconcile this all into one god, I decided I might as well take a polytheistic stance and just declare that I have a different god(dess) altogether (it was so anyway; hadn’t applied it quite like that before).

From what I can observe of the Evangelicals as a mass political movement, their god is a mean, nasty, punitive, vengeful, and sadistic god who hates women, the educated, and poor people. I don’t care what they call him — that’s the one they are worshipping and trying to impose on the rest of us via the various branches of Dominionism.

I’ve read the Bible, and I remember both the passages about taking care of the stranger in our land (Old Testament) and taking care of everybody (Sermon on the Mount, Beatitudes) . I also remember some interesting bits in the Old Testament that indicate there are more gods than just the one — it’s just that the god of the Hebrew tribes wanted it to be known that he is the one and only they will be allowed to worship. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” and a few other passages do seem to indicate there are other gods.

The point at which I mostly stopped trying to preach tolerance of Christianity at DU came to a head when Trump was elected. Evangelicals were his base, and no matter how awful he was they embraced him. No matter how awful they were, the GOP embraced them. MAGA was useful — also, I think, the GOP was afraid of them

Worst of all, from my point of view, nearly all the many other Christians in this country did not speak out as Christians when they objected to Trump & the Evangelicals. They spoke out as individual Democrats or educators or medical people or whatever secular group he was persecuting at the time.

But the issue of the dangerous toxicity of the Evangelical/Dominionist movement in politics, and the way they have been coddled by GOP politicians & presidents from Reagan - Bush - Bush the Lesser - Trump, seemed to be something the mainstream denominations shied away from. I could have missed it, but have the collective congregations of Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists and so forth spoken out officially? Has the Pope? (The Pope is trying to rein in radical right wing American bishops that the press insists on calling conservative, I will give him that) Mainstream denominations are reluctant to hammer fellow Christians even when they commit blasphemy and heresy. So the poison has spread. They are afraid.

I have not been a Christian in awhile, but as I said at the outset, I used to spend a fair amount of time here at DU preaching tolerance and trying to educate about our interdenominational allies. I just feel worn down by the horrors of MAGA and Talibangelicals and the rest.

So for the time being — thank you, carry on the good work, and best of luck.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

54. Here's my problem.

All religions essentially claim to be "The One True Religion." Whether one of the many Christian cults, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, pagan, and I'm sure I'm leaving out some. But the claim of being the One True Religion is what bothers me.

How can anyone possibly claim that with a straight face? Do NONE of these people have any comprehension about the complexity of religion? The actual variation in beliefs out there?

Okay, so believe what you want, what works for you. But NEVER tell my my beliefs are wrong. Because you are absolutely wrong to claim that.

[Mossfern]

248. Just a point

Judaism does not claim to be the one true religion - just that the Nation of Israel chose to obey Torah. Our religion believe that all good people will have a place in the world to come, no matter how they worshiped - or not. There are many atheist Jews (my former synagogue even had an alternative atheist service) as well as Jewbus.

[Hekate]

57. Just to add to what I already said: use the Alert button if it's bad enough. Seriously.

[speak easy]

59. A: Above all, the culture wars.

Abortion, LGBTQ. There are some liberal churches that support a woman's right to control her own body, but overwhelming they are opposed, and adamantly so.

[Earth-shine]

60. I don't give a damn what you believe, as long as there's love, kindness, and forgiveness in your heart.

I don't believe in any Gods and even less in human-made religions.

But, I've been wrong about a great many things.

The question of whether God exists as depicted by any world religion is an absolute no for me.

The question of whether or not God exists at all might not be so binary. Is there intelligence inherent in the universe?

I have a number of religious friends. They are wonderful decent people.

Keep your religion to yourself and we can be friends.

[AZLD4Candidate]

65. Christian statists deserve all the ridicule they get. If it doesn't apply to you, relax.

[Orrex]

67. Because its basic premise is ridiculous, and there is absolutely no evidence to support it

Frankly it's insulting to have to pretend otherwise in a society that expects me to listen politely while people recite their myths in response to real-life tragedy or hardship, etc.

It is an outmoded concept that has been used to herd, control, and terrify people into submission for millennia.

I guess it's nice when people are inspired to do good because they believe in their god, but I don't want to hear about it, I don't want to be invited to church, and I sure as shit don't want anyone to pray for me.


People are welcome to reply with their objections and counter-examples, but I can promise that I've heard it all before.

[Celerity]

69. Wow, what's next, the old 'being LGBTQ is a personal choice' refrain?

You said:

To say that all Christians are hypocrites is actually just as stereotypical as saying Mexicans are lazy or black people are criminals.

smdh

Choosing to engage (once you have self-agency) in the wilful suspension of disbelief that is necessary to believe in a god or gods is NOT the same as your country of origin (if you did not chose it) and certainy not the same as your ethnicity/racial makeup.

You have no choice in latter things, unlike the choice one makes to believe in god(s) and/or their attendant religions.

The construct you erected above employs the same faulty reasoning that the 'LGBTQ is a choice' crowd uses.

[Lunabell]

111. Yep.

Some of DU posters on this thread even say it. Again, asswipes: BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE OR A LIFESTYLE! Chosing to worship an invisible being who apparently has abandoned his creation, is a choice.

[Voltaire2]

160. I agree with your point but there is the fact

that for many people their religious beliefs are simply a result of their indoctrination as children. So in some respects it is not a choice at all. It is the exceptional person who manages to overcome that indoctrination and make conscious choices about religious beliefs.

[DemocraticPatriot]

70. As when hate is directed against Texas and Florida, even though

there are a great many loyal Democrats in both of those states---

those feelings are directed against the Republican extremists who control those states, not the Democrats---

just as 'hatred against Christians' on this site is overwhelmingly directed against far-right 'Christian nationalists' and 'political christians'-- rather than those who earnestly attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus-- who is actually a much admired figure on this site-- for his principles and his teachings!! In fact, much disgust here is directed against those who *claim* to be followers of Jesus, but ignore those teachings and seem to be completely ignorant of the New Testament!

Anyway, if you are a Democrat in Texas or Florida, or a Christian who actually seeks to follow the teachings of Jesus, you should not take personally the attacks upon Texas or Florida or "Christians". Those are generalizations based upon people's perceptions of the majorities of those classifications....

(Of course, there are many users here who don't believe in any of the 'sky-noodle-gods', and speak of all religions with disdain. Their opinions are worth just as much as anyone else, but they often can be quite hostile to the believers of any religion.)


In my own personal case, my heart (taught to me by my parents) is at war with my logic, and science. I have reached no firm conclusion...

Sometimes I still pray, but I don't base my entire existence upon belief in what is said in 'The Bible'--
(as it seems the far-right Christians do not--- some of whom have said that
"Jesus was WEAK--- TOO WOKE!" )


Disregarding any supernatural belief about gods or the divinity of Jesus, I think that most users of this site do not denigrate the teachings of Jesus as to what is right and what is wrong--- and much of the 'hatred against christians' is directed against those who *claim* to be his followers--- but effectively deny most or all of his instructions...... (the right-wing church).

[Jirel]

71. LOL.

Forced birtherism.
Prayer and creationism curriculum in schools.
Science denial.
Destruction of trans youth.
Playing the victim card when people say “Happy holidays.”
Banning of birth control.
Religion as a financial con game.
Claiming that anyone who disagrees is going to burn in hell.
Sexual and physical abuse by clergy, and institutional coverup.
Free-flowing hate toward other religions, or even the “wrong” sect of their own.
Degradation of women’s rights and bodies.
Attempts to turn nations into terrifying theocracies.
Hope for and delight in the eschaton.
Exorcism to remove “demons” when young people don’t toe the church line.
LGBTQ+ conversion “therapy.”
Pressuring women to stay in abusive relationships.
Purity balls/culture.
Centuries of inquisitions and crusades.
Destruction of native cultures to “spread the good news.”

Oh, I could go on for much, much longer.

Oh yeah - posts like this one that whitewash the horror show.

When your religion wholesale destroys lives, the rest of the world can draw some conclusions. There is no great movement by the “good ones” in the religion to reject the cruelty, bigotry, and criminality of the majority of churches and their leaders. Want people to feel more charitable toward Christianity? Go clean house, and talk to the rest of us in a few decades, when the church is out of the business of the state, has made reparations to its endless victims, and the megachurches have given their riches to help the poor, and disbanded.

[gay texan]

169. "but my brand of xtianity doesnt do that"

It's all derived from the same mess

I was made to feel worthless
it made me live in fear of being gay
i could never sleep because of the stupid rapture nonsense
Rock music was evil

[Act_of_Reparation]

80. A trans kid was killed by classmates last week.

And DU feels "unsafe"?

Interesting.

[RockRaven]

83. People who believe dumb/dangerous BS deserve respect/tolerance/kid gloves

only when they do not spread that BS to others/dictate to others/endanger others.

Once they do so even for a moment -- and most of them do so -- it is open season, rhetorically.

[qwlauren35]

87. By calling it BS ..

You are being disrespectful. Why not just call it a belief? It's not your belief. It's their belief. Why is it necessary to put it down?

[Lunabell]

114. Because "belief" is not valid.

A lot of people "believe" tfg won in 2020. Some "believe" the earth is flat and that woman was made from a man's rib. Belief, without evidence, is ridiculous.

[betsuni]

116. People who believe dumb/dangerous BS spread to others?

Like demonizing Democrats as immoral corrupt Wall Street corporate shill status quo elites beholden to wealthy donors? Encourage people not to vote for Democrats? That's ideology, same as religion.

[DemMedic]

84. In my case, I identify as a Christian

But I loath organized religion.

This is why I would never be part of a church.

[betsuni]

86. Once you've met a true Christian, can't go back to bashing all Christians and thinking you're

smarter than they are. Everyone's a hypocrite about something at one time or another.

[eShirl]

91. Maybe the bad actors should ease up on trying to be the boss of everybody else.

I don't have a problem with people who mind their own business.

[Kablooie]

93. Evangelicals have become aggressively political and power hungry.

They plan to force their beliefs down everyone’s throat in order to grab power.
They do this, loudly, behind the name of Christianiy.
This taints all other Christians who are not part of this power grab, unfortunately.
It’s not rational but emotions can blind us even as we try to avoid them.

[qwlauren35]

95. Spot on.

I have seen some people try to temper it by saying Christian extremists or evangelical Christians.

Maybe some of the people who don't will reconsider.

[AmBlue]

94. Funny

At first glance, I thought the title of your OP was asking for insight into why Christianity seems to propagate so much hatred these days.

I was raised in the Christian faith, but was repulsed by the extreme hypocrisy I personally witnessed. I have seen Christianity be hijacked by those that would love nothing better than to wield it as a political bludgeon or ram it down everyone's throats by turning the U.S. into a theocratic dictatorship. In my book, ANY "so-called" Christian that would vote for that bloated orange criminal traitor is a hypocrite of the highest order, and that includes probably half of my own extended family.

I will allow that there are "good Christians" still left in this world, but there either aren't enough of them or they are simply not loud enough to be heard over the holier-than-thou poisonous vitriol infecting American daily life.

[Raven123]

96. In part you may have answered your own question

Most of the bashing I read occurs in the context of reports showing what many see as hypocrisy. As is often the case in my experience, the loudest advocates can be the “do as I say, not as I do” folks.

However, I think you may have noted one important point

“But I am not a believer in the Son of God. In her faith, I will not see God when I die. (And if I did become a believer, that would have to include believing that over half of the people I know would suffer this fate, and that would break my spirit.)”

Perhaps many have suffered a broken spirit before breaking away. Healing takes a long time and bitterness can remain indefinitely

[no_hypocrisy]

98. Depends upon the type of Christian.

There are Christians who want to follow Jesus, believe in his Word, do good deeds to help others, go to Church and be healed.

And then there are Christians who want to impose their beliefs, principles, cannons, and laws upon the rest of us. They want to replace constitutional law with biblical law. Make blasphemy punishable. Indoctrinate children of other faiths with their faith in school. Choose school curriculums. Etc. Etc.

To criticize the latter is not Christian-bashing. It's criticizing the evangelizing of others using government, public places, and policies. If others want to convert on their own, let them. But don't make the entire United States of America the United States of Christianity, and a narrow interpretation of Christianity at that.

[mopinko]

101. because so few of those who profess to be, are.

[Emile]

106. Respect is earned, not given.

[yagotme]

333. So, if I don't know you, or anything about you,

I don't have to give you respect? Hmmm...

[hlthe2b]

115. Do you know the difference between traditional Christianity and "Christian Nationalism?"

Your post seems to suggest that you do not. It is the latter that most on DU are reacting to and there is essentially nothing about that that reflects liberal Christianity-- nor any religion at all. It is like stating that Hitler, though claiming to be "Christian" reflects true Christianity when he actually would have been the poster child for "CN."

Unfortunately, these CN advocates are infiltrating naive/uninformed/ill-informed spaces, including within the MSM. Arguably even within traditional Christianity-- notably including some of Pope Francis' most vehement (and violent) right-wing critics (in the US and abroad) may well be considered Christian Nationalists instead--thus Steve Bannon's attempts to rally them to his cause in Italy over the past decade.

[Shermann]

117. Mockery is a valid debate technique

I think most here prefer intellectual arguments debated in good faith. However, sometimes an opposing view is supported with bad faith arguments, at which point limiting the discussion to the facts becomes futile. These entrenched positions must then be put down with mockery and ridicule.

Right wing positions don't get the luxury of being "roped off" from this treatment, why should religious (or any other) positions? Note that it is possible to mock a viewpoint without disrespecting the individual who holds it.

You may have smuggled in the claim of "hate" without supporting it.

[Voltaire2]

119. "Also creationism. "

I’ll mock and ridicule creationist idiocy anywhere it gets uttered in my presence.

[Goodheart]

132. That part really caught my attention.

I'm not supposed to mock absurdities?

[samnsara]

120. i am tolerant of all religions and i realize some people need this faith in their lives but..

...what I won't tolerate is policy or law crammed down my throat that's based on someones belief or interpretation of religion.

[intrepidity]

121. No. nt

[DiverDave]

123. Paying lip service

"christian values" and the "good christians "
Don't say a word about the hate from their fellow church members.
When the "good christians" stand up for their professed values, I'll reassess my disdain.

[Lunabell]

125. Hate? It isn't hate.

Last edited Sun Mar 3, 2024, 09:08 AM - Edit history (1)

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I don't "hate" religions, just like I don't "hate" Mother Goose fairytales. I ridicule the concept of "belief" without evidence. Lots of people belive the earth is flat and there was no moon landing. Some believe the measles vaccine causes autism and some belive that demons cause illness or mental health problems. There's no evidence for god, only faith and belief. That's not hate, but more like pity.

But, I'm an equal opportunity pitier toward all religions and cults. Maybe DU christians should do what jesus told them to do and "turn the other cheek."

And furthermore, on edit, maybe DU christians should be more aware and compassionate towards those who ridicule religions after all that has been done to innocents in the name of their religion. Witch burning. Gay bashing. The Spanish inquisition. Mandatory church attendance. The stealing of land. Religious riots saying, "my belief is the right one!" Your god is satanic while mine is the right and true one! DU christians should be more compassionate and understanding than other christians as to why so many are not ok with religion. Practice what your jesus taught.

[Shermann]

134. Agreed, DU has rules against hate speech and personal attacks that are actually enforced.

If there is evidence of this not being enforced, I'd like to see it.

[Lunabell]

144. Yeppers!

Cry me a river religious belivers. All the hortible shit that's been done to people in the name of "god" warrants negativity. Even some DUers here don't get it at all. Calling being gay a path or choice is all I need to know about your religious belief.

[Martin Eden]

126. Rightwing Christo-fascists deserve all the bashing they receive

But we must remember not to paint all Christians with the same brush.

Tens of millions of good people who are on our side in the struggle to save American democracy are Christians.

[Irish_Dem]

128. I cannot respect a group that wishes to destroy our country and take away rights.

And which is doing a modern day version of the salem witch trials.
Killing and torturing women, making them second class citizens.

It would cost me a great deal of my moral core and ethics to support such a religion.

[lapucelle]

138. "I cannot respect a group that wishes to destroy our country and take away rights."

Would that include any Islamic fundamentalists who wish to destroy or country or take away or rights? How about Islamic fundamentalist governments that engage in "killing and torturing women, making them second class citizens"?

If "yes", would the assertion still be

"It would cost me a great deal of my moral core and ethics to support such a religion."

or would it be the more measured

"It would cost me a great deal of my moral core and ethics to support such a sect."

[Irish_Dem]

139. I stand by my comments.

There is no need to play word games.

[lapucelle]

145. It's not a word game.

The presuppostion that any and all practitioners of a religion comprise a monolith has empowered Islamophobes for decades.

[Lunabell]

155. They are a monolith.

They all have faith and believe in something that's not real. Like flat earthers or bigfoot believers. Not real. Monolithic. Not real. No evidence. No facts. Just faith. Monolithic. See?

[lapucelle]

171. By your reasoning "organized religion" is the monolith.

That wasn’t the claim I addressed.

Happy to clear that up for you.

[Lunabell]

236. It's exactly what you claimed.

"The presuppostion that any and all practitioners of a religion comprise a monolith..."

They all rely on faith and belief.

Monolith: a. :constituting a massive undifferentiated and often rigid whole. a monolithic society. b. : exhibiting or characterized by often rigidly fixed uniformity. monolithic party unity."

Their basic tenets are faith and belief. All of them. Every last one. That is a "massive undifferentiated and often rigid whole."

[lapucelle]

241. Nope. I was addressing someone else's claims about Christianity. N/T

[malaise]

129. Folks can believe what they want

It's another matter when they try to impose their beliefs on me - and that goes for every single religion. My obsessed Catholic mother learned not to impose her views on me. And we loved and respected one another.

[Bayard]

260. Agreed

I put religion in the same category as sex---to each his own, and its none of my business. UNLESS, they try to force their beliefs on me. Its why I've always had a problem with, "missionaries."

I was raised Southern Baptist. My parents were devout, and I had no problem with that, but I resented being dragged to church 3 times a week. Then, I started really questioning some things, and that was a problem for them. I was supposed to believe without question. Have faith. It got to the point in high school when my Mom called in the big gun--the preacher came to our house to try to determine what my problem was, and pray for me. I still resent it when people drop their heads and start praying with no warning. My Mennonite animal vet would do that when I lived in Calif. We were at a land auction a few years ago here where the auctioneer did it. To me, that shows disrespect and ignorance to people who don't believe as they do. Its forcing your beliefs on others.

As for DU, I have a real problem with members that show disrespect and ignorance to other members. As I've said numerous times, I am offended when members say nasty things about residents of several states. Again, more disrespect, intolerance, and ignorance. We should be better than that.

[malaise]

273. I started raising questions about religion before I was a teen

I challenged all the effin nuns in teh school and told them I wasn't studying any of that stuff because I had no plan of joining them.
I did enough to pass the stupid exam and they and my mother realized long before graduation that I was never going to be part of their congregation.
Having a paternal aunt who shared a lot of my thinking helped. She was anti-colonial and anti-religion. She hated the royals big time.

And yes I try to be respectful but sometimes empirical evidence is the only option required and not all posters welcome that when the evidence is not on their side.

[OldBaldy1701E]

307. So did I.

I was questioning it all from the age of ten. That was when we moved from this small town to out in the country. My father was a deacon in the Baptist church in town. He had always been involved in the church and we always went. Then, we located a house outside of town. Way outside of town. And, there was another church that was much closer to us than our old one. We were poor. So, my father asked that church about our joining their congregation. When the Baptist preacher got wind of this, he went off on my father. In three different sermons he railed against 'traitors' and 'false Christians' and so on. He turned the entire town against my father. My father never went to church again and I know that this was when his drinking went from 'weekend partier' to 'two drinks before I get out of bed each day'. It destroyed him. And, it changed my life forever.

So, no, I am not partial to any part of it. I try to remain as nice as I can about it, but as far as I am concerned... well, you know... long walk... short pier...

[malaise]

308. Wow!

Your poor dad.
I call all of them the Let us Prey movement.

[leftyladyfrommo]

130. You should see what happens if you mention

Mother Teresa. It's like someone threw a bomb in the water.

[Earth-shine]

147. You can't say that ...

without you, yourself, mentioning Mother Theresa. BOOM

Oh no, I just mentioned Mother Theresa. BOOM

And, I did it again. BOOM

[Goodheart]

131. You exaggerate.

Christianity is, of course, nonsense, but that doesn't mean I hate Christians. Hate the sin, love the sinner, right?

[Croney]

136. We have an Atheists and Agnostics forum for a reason.

I feel protected there when I say it's ridiculous to believe in gods or heaven or hell or spirits that go bump in the night.

Arguing "out here in the open" feels like the Thanksgiving dinner table after a few rounds of the table wine.

[phylny]

207. Funny, I feel the same about seeing posts discussing the "Invisible Sky Daddy" that aren't alerted upon,

but are invitations to pile on.

As a Christian, I would never disparage your beliefs/non-beliefs. Nor would I call them ridiculous

[Croney]

226. I won't post in the religion forums, and you can make your own decision

about posting in the Atheists and Agnostics forum.

[phylny]

282. Oh I don't. I respect people's opinions

and beliefs and would never want to challenge or ridicule them. Why would I?

[Voltaire2]

324. The religion forum is explicitly open to all

points of view. It is not a safe haven for religious people.

[elocs]

137. Not everyone who calls themselves "Christian" are true followers of Jesus nor his NT teachings.

The Trump maga cult call themselves Christians, but clearly are not.
Many who call themselves Christians are simply Christmas Eve and Easter Christians, nominal Christians of tradition, not belief.
There are mainline Christian churches that preach hate against basic Democratic principles. How do you respect them when they don't have respect for you or your beliefs?
Clearly, some people's beliefs are not worthy of respect and Christianity that has little to do with actually being Christian has with some exceptions become the poster boy for those who don't believe the same way.

[Mariana]

306. If they aren't Christians, what are they?

Are they atheists, or are they secretly followers of some other religion?

[Paladin]

140. Reminds me of how Texans are treated, by some DUers. (nt)

[HAB911]

141. For me, when dealing with any religious person, which I am not

I become a mirror, I give what I receive.

[walkingman]

143. What I usually witness is what I call "Selective Christianity"

a kind of pick-and-choose religion that makes people feel good by acknowledging Jesus with their words, and denying him through their actions,which is a very common approach these days.

But not any stranger than Judeo Christian beliefs. Hell, purgatory, baptism, God procreating with a human, Trinity, and one that most have in common with each other, subjugation of women. And on top of all that, hardly anyone practices the philosophy behind it, but use it to discriminate and justify hatred for others.

And perhaps when you have Catholics and Evangelical Christians trying to legislate a religious worldview built on the inevitability of apocalypse as the fulfillment of Divine Destiny, it makes some people feel... helpless and hopeless.

[live love laugh]

151. Dominionism would force Buddhists to participate in Christianity.

The entire founding of the nation is based upon freedom of religion and separation of church and state.

[Mysterian]

153. What hate?

Worship whomever you want. Just don't try to force your beliefs on others or make laws based on Bronze Age fables and everyone will get along fine.

The hate is reserved for those who use their religion to justify hatred of others.

[Lunabell]

157. I don't really even hate them.

Pity, still. Hate what they're doing, but pity them that they're stuck in the old paradigms.

[demmiblue]

156. Wrong forum. n/t

[Autumn]

159. The hate I see come from the so called Christians. Their hates costs us a lot.

If they want to follow their saviors doctrine and teachings , then I would show respect.

[former9thward]

163. Our current president is a Christian and is not afraid to say so.

The last Democratic president before him was a Christian and brought it up whenever he needed to make a relevant point. In fact, as any Chicagoan who is into politics knows, Obama got his start campaigning in black churches on the South and West sides of Chicago. I wonder what all the Christian bashers must think when the leaders of the party are Christians.

[redqueen]

178. I think of how much farther we may have progressed as a species

if these specific mythologies were not given special treatment.

[Goodheart]

181. So, let's see... a large portion of Christians, especially evangelicals and creationists, believe that I DESERVE hell,

to be punished with fire forever, simply because I can't believe nor subscribe to the anti-scientific superstitions and prejudices of ancient goatherders. And on top of that they try to legislate, that whoever can't with reason accept their superstitions must accept them by force of law.

And then they whine about being hated.

I decided a long time ago that I will speak out against the legal and societal contempt of non-Christians, unbelievers, and skeptics. I decided to speak out against being treated as an unworthy citizen. You call that hate, I call it standing up for myself.

[Shermann]

216. Yeah and what about those unfortunate souls who were born before the year zero?

There are probably 100 billion in that category, do they just get grandfathered in to Heaven? Must be nice. Or did they get nothingness? Even better, can I take that option after death? That is a rhetorical question, I'm fairly certain the Cosmos is cool with that.

Hell is the whip that gets the asses in the pews, but the whole concept is deeply flawed.

[viva la]

182. You lost control of the term

It isn't the fault of nonbelievers that the term Christian is now more associated with "nationalism" than "charity".

[Voltaire2]

193. The pope back in the 16th century 'gave'

South America to Spain and Portugal to convert the heathens to Christianity. They proceeded to do so brutally for the ‘glory of god’ and of course for the glory of their respective nations.

There is nothing new about christian nationalism.

[doc03]

189. I don't hate Christians that practice what they preach. It is the ones that call themselves

Christians on Sunday morning then hate on gays, immigrants, POC or whoever an hour later.
From my own experience that is the majority of them especially the ones that call themselves
born again or evangelicals. I haven't set foot in a church in at least 15 years and I am shocked by
the hate that comes out of most people that claim to be Christians. Look at the US today it is the
Christian evangelicals that gave us Trump and MAGA.

[Kaleva]

190. You see the same thing with Jews and Muslims

[JohnSJ]

201. Thank-you

[Goodheart]

194. It hasn't been asked here, but I think it needs to be: what in the world is a "Christian", anyway?

I just can't see how one person who believes in hell and another who doesn't share the same religion... so why call them both "Christian"?

I just can't see how one person who believes a fertilized human egg is a person and another who doesn't share the same religion... so why call them both "Christian"?

I just can't see how one person who believes eternal life depends entirely on accepting Jesus Christ while the other believes it depends on personal works share the same religion... so why call them both "Christian"?

I just can't see how one person who believes humans were created all at once in whole while the other believes we evolved from lower life forms share the same religion.... so why call them both "Christian"?

These are not small policy issues... these are not some trite differences in church rituals.. these are not some trite disagreements on the wordings of particular prayers.... these are questions fundamental to our beginning, our lives, and our ultimate fate. So when you become more specific about which type of Christian you are, when you adopt for yourself a more descriptive label, then I can't really say whether or not I'm inclined to despise you.

[usedtobedemgurl]

200. Being Buddhist myself, I find this OP interesting.

I was never taught or read anything stating to hate other religions. Can I ask what texts you read where it put down other religions? Or what guidance someone may have given you that led you to feel that way about Christians?

The nearest I can come in my studies is when we are told Budda said do not believe anything anyone says or preaches, including what Buddha says, unless it makes sense to you. But disregarding is not the same as hating. When we hate, we pick up a lump of hot coal to throw at a person and we get burned.

I am very interested in this thread as I have never met any other Buddhist who hated. We are all human and have moments of weakness but your hate of other people in a certain religion sounds like it was ongoing. I would love to discuss this further either in this thread or through DU mail.

Namaste

[Voltaire2]

212. Buddhism is generally not a bad belief system

but if you start looking at that history it gets a bit uncomfortable.

For example Japanese nationalists incorporated Zen Buddhism into their ideology, and various Japanese Zen sects were happy to go along with that.

The absolutely horrible Burma military regime has the support of at least some major Buddhist sects.

The problem is that religious institutions are part of the ideological state apparatus. They gain power by providing support for the state, and that support is used to control the population.

[usedtobedemgurl]

235. Yes, not a bad belief system at all,

But I wondered about OPand why they are Buddhist and yet hated deeply for so many years. I know a history of some Buddhism. I was comparing personal journeys.

For my personal journey, I realized how controlled Buddhism was. The thought process is if you do not think it, you will not do it. You need strength of mind to control your emotions.

I grew up in the Catholic religion. Every Sunday you could hear the folks around you criticize what this person or that was wearing and gossiping about one and all. I did not like the hypocrisy. It was a turn off. Therefore, instead of becoming Buddhist at 16, I decided my mind was not strong enough to honor the religion and its ways. I read up on the philosophy and hoped one day I would feel prepared. I was so grateful when that day came: I have not been as disciplined as I would have liked, but I have put in a ton of effort.

I felt sad when I read the OP about their long hatred while being Buddhist: I imagine them being anguished and torn. Buddhism teaches us these emotions cause us much harm. So, rather than focusing on downfalls, which exist everywhere, I was wondering how the OP got to the point of toxic (I believe all hate to be toxic) hate and what texts/teachings within the Buddhist teachings brought them to that point. When you strive to understand someone, you also gain understanding into yourself and society as a whole. I have met many Buddhists and saw the Dalai Lama multiple times. I have never heard the words “I hate/hated” from any of their mouths. I am genuinely curious. But I cannot ask you, since you are not the OP.

[shrike3]

345. Unfortunately, Buddhism has had its moments.

I find much to admire in Buddhism, but like a lot of belief systems its practitioners decided at various points of its history that might makes right.

Japan is one example: The beginning of "Buddhist violence" in Japan relates to a long history of feuds among Buddhists. The sōhei or "warrior monks" appeared during the Heian period, although the seeming contradiction in being a Buddhist "warrior monk" caused controversy even at the time.[171] More directly linked is that the Ikkō-shū movement was considered an inspiration to Buddhists in the Ikkō-ikki rebellion. In Osaka they defended their temple with the slogan "The mercy of Buddha should be recompensed even by pounding flesh to pieces. One's obligation to the Teacher should be recompensed even by smashing bones to bits!"[172]

During World War II, Japanese Buddhist literature from that time, as part of its support of the Japanese war effort, stated "In order to establish eternal peace in East Asia, arousing the great benevolence and compassion of Buddhism, we are sometimes accepting and sometimes forceful. We now have no choice but to exercise the benevolent forcefulness of 'killing one in order that many may live' (issatsu tashō . This is something which Mahayana Buddhism approves of only with the greatest of seriousness..."[173] Almost all Japanese Buddhists temples strongly supported Japan's militarization.

My good friend is a Buddhist, FWIW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

Buddhist scripture condemns violence in every form. Ahimsa, a term meaning "not to injure", is a primary virtue in Buddhism.[1] However, Buddhists have historically used scriptures to justify violence or form exceptions to commit violence for various reasons.[2][3] As found in other religious traditions, Buddhism has an extensive history of violence dating back to its inception.[3][4]

[usedtobedemgurl]

347. But that does not explain why OP

Had so much hate in their heart. I am trying to understand this person just as this person is trying to understand the perception of people here hating certain religions but they do not reply.

I think even if you do not like a religion or you see the hypocrisy in it, it is a lot to be seething in anger over it. So, I am trying to understand from the OP’s point of view why it consumed them so.

[shrike3]

348. I don't think the OP has hate in their heart. Quite the contrary.

I've been here since the Bush administration and wish I had a dollar for every Christianity is awful/Christians are awful posts. They are remarking on something which happens here regularly. Others may deny it, but it's true. OTOH, he/she mentions a safe space for Christians. There already are such spaces: safe haven groups for liberal Christians and Catholic and Orthodox. You can't expect an entire site to be a safe space; it's unrealistic. So, I disagree w/the post in that regard.

[usedtobedemgurl]

369. Ok.

Just picking up on the whole bloodthirsty thing they said.

[shrike3]

371. Um ... bloodthirsty?

[usedtobedemgurl]

373. The OP used that word, not me. Reread it.

If they change it, I have a screenshot.

[shrike3]

374. She used the adjective once, that I could see.

The post is about how she changed, and why.

[usedtobedemgurl]

375. Yes, and I did not say they used it more than once.

Are you saying it is ok for the OP to try to understand why others hate but people cannot try to gain a true understanding as to why that person hated? I was not judging. I did not condemn. They were curious about others and so am I. Is it wrong when someone asks a question to wonder and want to understand that person?

[shrike3]

376. Guess I'm not sure what your beef is, and why you're upset.

So I'm tapping out.

[usedtobedemgurl]

377. Like I said....

No beef, no anger, no judgement….i wanted to understand where their hate came from in our religion. When you understand others, as the OP was attempting and then so was I with the OP, you can get along better and there is more live in the world. If you are against love and understanding as I have repeatedly said were my goals (the understanding, at least) then you are right. We are done. I had no idea wanting to understand someone with a different viewpoint was looked down upon. Did you attack the OP for wanting to understand hate? Never mind. Thank you for interacting with me. I wish I could have given you understanding the way the OP was searching for understanding something. Namaste. Have a great day.

[qwlauren35]

360. Why I didn't reply.

I took a break.

So many people justified their Christian bashing by pointing to evangelical beliefs. Or because they were atheists and unwilling to let Christians have their different beliefs. I saw the beliefs of Christians called stupid and childish. It made me ill.

I answered your question earlier and I will explain in more detail. I was introduced to Nichiren Buddhism in my teens. Part of their theology is that Nichiren Buddhism is the supreme Buddhism and every other form of Buddhism is inferior. Another part of their theology is that there are no precepts. There is only chanting and prostyletizing. There was a fracture within the Buddhist organization in the 1990's and it made me question everything. I began reading Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama. I began reading books by American Buddhists. I was quite skeptical, because of the Buddhism I had been taught. But over time, I decided that I could hold onto SOME of the things I had learned, and add onto them.

The fundamental precept that I try to hold onto is "Do No Harm". And I admit that it challenges me. I think that the Pro-Choice position is not compatible with Buddhism, but I am pro-Choice and I have had abortions. I have recently killed all of the mice in my home. And not very humanely. We used stomach that made their insides explode. Or we used electric shock. Or we suffocated them. I swat flies in my home. I do not want any living creature living in my home except me and my husband and our dog. I eat meat, I eat eggs.

I once met a Buddhist who killed NOTHING. I'm not sure I could get to that point.

I looked at my post, and I don't think I said "hate". I just said I bashed. I belittled. I argued. I questioned. I challenged. I did hate the hypocrisy. That's not the same as hating people.

[qwlauren35]

358. Hmm...

I went back and looked at my post. I think you are referring to my Christian-bashing youth.

The Buddhism I was taught had no precepts except to proselytize and chant. It was only after I started doing my own reading about Buddhism that I found out what the precepts were and asked myself if I could follow them.

For the most part, I can. With the exception of Dylann Roof, I wish no human harm. It will take more growth for me to acknowledge Dylann Roof's Buddha Nature.

I kill regularly. I have tried to kill every mouse in my home. I have killed embryos in my womb. I swat flies. I remember meeting a Buddhist who didn't kill, and I wondered if I could get to that point. Could I share my home with mice. Could I be at peace with flies. Can I become pro-Life.

I would have to call myself an imperfect Buddhist. But Buddhism is where I feel most at home.

[viva la]

202. Interesting article about the loss of Christianity

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/03/evangelical-support-republican-trump/677610/

[Chainfire]

206. I am an atheist; I don't hate Christians or Muslims or Buddhists or any of the other religions.

Don't expect me to give the Christian religion a break because it is the only true religion. There have been so many One True Religions in the history of the world that, if I felt a sudden need for religion, I would have a hell of a time choosing the right one. When Christians, under the cover of the Jesus, do bad things, I will call them out on it. That is not hate, but a struggle for survival.

I don't hate Big Foot believers, vapor trail enthusiests, or followers of Santa Claus or the tooth fairy either. I just don't think that, among the groups, there is a substantial difference.

At this point in time, many fundamentalist Christians have taken up the cause of Fascism disguised as patriotism, or Republicanism. Where I don't hate religions, I do hate Nazis. (I have seen what they are capable of) I wouldn't piss on a Christian Nazi if he or she was on fire. Gott mitt uns or not...

I do think that American Christians, the majority of the population, expect special treatment because of their religion. I do not agree, and will not stand by when they lobby for special status with that, but that is not hate either.

I disagree with you, I don't hate you.

[mainer]

210. It's like the GOP: the brand has been poisoned

I used to know and respect a number of Republicans. That was before the party turned into a Trump cult.
Now what's left of the GOP are hate-filled, racist, angry people.
The decent Republicans have left the party.
Christianity, too, has been hijacked by crazy people.
The decent ones have gone silent out of fear, or have retreated to more liberal denominations.

[edisdead]

213. The fuq?

You are free to follow your religion. I am free to tell you it is a joke. You are free to ridicule me back.

I don’t give money and talk to invisible people.

[yardwork]

214. Is it hateful to speak out against intolerance?

As a lesbian, am I supposed to quietly accept the hateful things that many religious leaders say about me?

At what point does their hatred of me and others give me a right to speak out against their beliefs?

If some Christians feel unsafe on an anonymous message board, can they imagine how unsafe I feel when Christian preachers tell their congregations that I am an abomination who should be killed?

[MineralMan]

215. I do not care what religion anyone follows.

I care only about how people behave.

What you believe regarding supernatural stuff is irrelevant to me. What you do is highly relevant.

It is that simple.

[ismnotwasm]

217. The churches fucked themselves is what

With some of their horrible dogmatic crap. A lot of Religious folk are deconstructing religion, questioning what they’ve been taught, finding ways to practice that doesn’t include being hateful. The damage is done though. So many wounded, so many tortured, so many dead and so many who no longer have access to the comfort of religion because of who they are.

Now, I believe religion is a human experience. I don’t separate humanity from religion, it *is* us, we made it, we use it, we change it. So from me, any criticism of religion is a criticism of humanity and how we choose to interpret the world. Unfortunately almost all religions are hierarchical, meaning there are leaders. With leadership comes power. With power comes abuse of power. We’ve seen that played out to infinity.

Myself? As I’ve said, religion doesn’t bother me any more than people bother me.

[Prairie_Seagull]

222. Are we to the point where we need to recognize that

there is liberal Christianity and Conservative Christianity. Being an atheist the conversation is a bit moot but I am seeing where some of the discussion could be lightened by this differentiation.

[coprolite]

223. I have no problems with religious people

I have problems when these people wear their religion as a badge on their sleeve, loudly proclaiming their beliefs and why everyone else needs to also follow their beliefs or the nonbelievers will all end up in hell.

If you pray in your home or church I have no issues, but when your religious beliefs are proclaimed in a public venue it is then intruding on my rights of freedom from your religion.

[Ocelot II]

227. The controversy isn't over doctrine. It isn't about whether Jesus was the son of God

or if he was real at all, or if he was, whether transubstantiation is a thing, or whether the Lutherans are correct about the sola fides doctrine, or whether the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra. It's about whether the particular religious beliefs of a particular group of people can be weaponized politically. That's the problem, and it has been the problem with religions throughout history - and not just Christianity in its many varieties (and we can't forget that Christians have been fighting with each other for centuries). In the case of many, though not all, evangelical Christians, they have taken political weaponization to the extreme, where their actual religious principles are lost to the requisite political orthodoxy. Heresy, to them, has nothing to do with Christian doctrine; it consists in voting for Democrats and not acknowledging Trump as effectively the leader or high priest, second only to (or maybe even equal to) Jesus.

The teachings of the Gospels - loving your neighbor, feeding the hungry, welcoming the stranger, all that altruistic stuff, the actual foundational doctrine of Christianity - has been subsumed into the cultist hive-mind of a political movement. The so-called Christian nationalists, a subset of evangelical Christians, who are themselves are a subset of all identified Christians, use their purported religion as a smokescreen for their political objectives. God and Jesus haven't a damn thing to do with any of it.

[Flatrat]

230. Why should cults be tax exempt?

[dslyahoo]

231. To name a few...

Kenneth Copeland
Joel Osteen
Pat Robertson
Tom Parker
Samuel Alito
Amy Coney Barrett
Franklin Graham
Paula Michelle White-Cain
Mike Johnson
And any other Christian nationalist, dominionist, or fundamentalist that espouses trumps rhetoric and lies.

It isn’t Christian beliefs or faith or the people that honestly follow those beliefs that are called out here and other places. It is the ugliness and hatred presented by the above list that good people find distasteful and worthy of calling out.

[Fozzledick]

242. I see two kinds of Christians in the world: "Love your neighbor" and "Hate your neighbor"

The ones I've known personally in real life have generally been modest and kind and somewhat self-effacing and don't usually talk about religion in public except for occasional casual references to participating in church activities. When you get to know them well enough to discuss their Christian beliefs they talk about things like loving your neighbor as yourself, feeding the hungry, clothing and housing the poor, treating others as you would want to be treated, and not criticizing others for the motes in their eyes.

But when I turn on my TV I always see the others preaching that you should hate your neighbors, begrudge the poor the bare necessities of life, persecute and oppress immigrants and refugees, and condemn others for their sins. They always like to make a big show of praying loudly in the corners of the public marketplace, and their spiel usually ends with an appeal to send them money or else to vote for hateful fascists.

The problem as I see it is that the second group get a free pass to get away with it because the first group is too polite to publicly criticize anyone, even those who blaspheme in their name.

[TexasBushwhacker]

249. I think the real issue is Christian Nationalists

and any venom should be aimed at that group specifically.

[pandr32]

253. Many of us grew up in 'Christian' communities.

Its presence was a church that held fun summer picnics that included three legged races, a wedding venue for neighbors, a must attend Christmas and Easter service we got dressed up for and then went to the special room for treats and juice while our parents chatted with others and drank coffee or tea, the source for learning a few superstitious prayers we uttered at bedtime for some reason--often carrying the habit into adulthood, rummage and bake sales, occasional invitations to baptisms or funeral services, fights between Mom and Dad over her desire to drag us off there more often and Dad saying he worked hard all week and had no interest, a box that got ticked on certain paperwork that was submitted for something or other, and some confused bible stories we never really believed.
It was, however, an identity we took for granted.
There really were some wonderful ladies who worked hard to gather up stuff for some members of our community who were down on their luck or suffering something terrible. They often telephoned and prompted Mom to scour through our closets for something useful or to bake a casserole in order to help.
Basically, our church functioned as a community center.
We were us, though. Except for those prayers that were superstitiously repeated just in case of who knows what it really had no influence on who we were or how we saw the world. The ticked box on paperwork seamed a formality. Our 'faith' meant that we were just people going through life as best we could.
The value of community is real and I will never forget my childhood one. As an adult living in different places I did venture back to Church for a Christmas service once or twice, or buy raffle tickets when kids came to the door.
As an adult I have learned that Christmas and Easter both have pagan roots and no longer feel the need to celebrate an arbitrary birthday of someone who, if he lived, was an ordinary and devout Jew who struggled under Roman oppression. I still love to sing carols and decorate a tree at home and reach out to distant friends and family members via cards or phone calls. I raised my children thinking that Easter was a time of optimism--they got baskets with goodies and their first summer outfit because warmer weather was starting to show its promise of summer fun ahead.
I am an Atheist now and looking back, I always was. It was the community membership our local church offered that caused us to tick the box on paperwork.
Community--not anything oppressive or tyrannical.

[thucythucy]

258. It bothers me that most if not all of those condemning Christians as a whole

seem to ignore entirely the role played by Black Christians in the Democratic coalition,

Even the polls cited and posted by those who would seem to condemn all Christians note that more than ninety percent of Black Protestants voted for Biden. I suspect the same is true for Black Catholics.

The African American community is the most reliable part of the Democratic coalition, and over and over again we rely on Black voters, especially women, to save the nation.

The Black church is a major part of that community and historically has stood with Democrats, ever since the election of 1960 and most certainly after 1964. It has also been a driving force, in election after election, in getting out the Democratic vote.

Then too, Black Christian leaders have been at the forefront of many of our struggles for social justice, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. being the most prominent example.

I worry that the denigration of all Christians on DU--done I suspect mostly by white DUers--threatens to alienate the core of our coalition. If nothing else, it minimizes and marginalizes Black contributions to pretty much every presidential race we've won in the last half century.

As an aside: President Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ, and as a freshman Senator gave the keynote speech at the UCC's annual convention, which may have been the first time he was given a national platform from which to speak.

I have no problem with calling out Evangelicals, white or black, who suck up to Trump and are part of the MAGA cult.

I do have a problem with attempting to stereotype and denigrate millions of people who are our allies, and on whom we continue to rely on for our political salvation. I think such sweeping generalizations are both unseemly and entirely self-defeating.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

313. .

[betsuni]

334. Thank you.

[qwlauren35]

361. THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe it's because I'm black that I put up that post.

I see a lot of LGBTQ folks bashing Christians, even though they are loved and accepted by many denominations.

I see a lot of atheists bashing Christians in horrific ways because they don't realize that their belief that there is no God is just as strong as the Christian belief that there is. "There is a God" and "There is no God" are both beliefs, and both sides claim to know the truth. And somehow, neither side seems willing to co-exist with the other side.

Few LGBTQ people and atheists want to address the FACT that nearly half of the Democratic Party is Christian. They support the LGBTQ community and they are pro-Choice, but they ARE Christian. And they get bashed here something terrible. And when I point it out, they get bashed some more.

Less than 30% of this country identifies as born-again. Less than 12% identifies as evangelical.

Be mad at one specific group of Christians. But recognize that a significant minority of Christians voted for Biden, including 90% of African Americans. And African Americans are one VERY religious group of people.

[thucythucy]

370. You're most certainly welcome.

It's imteresting though that none of those so dedicated to bashing Christians in general have yet responded to the points I make.

It's as if some folks would prefer to ignore the role that Black Christians and the Black Church play as our allies. And are ignorant of the role the Black Church has traditionally played in organizing the community to fight back against white oppression.

The phrase, "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.

Anyway, best wishes to you and yours.

[JonAndKatePlusABird]

259. Why did you include creationism?

Sorry, gonna mock the hell out of pseudo-scientific hogwash. If that actually truly offends someone, well, that person needs to get a life.

[qwlauren35]

363. To me, Creationism is a theory.

It's an attempt to explain something that we really don't know. Big Bang is a theory. Darwinism is a theory. Creationism is a theory. It's completely out of order, but the possibility of a creator is a theory.

We do not know.

[JonAndKatePlusABird]

368. Gravity is a theory

Just because something is a “theory” doesn’t mean we can discard the results when convenient.

And as noted above, evolution is something you can see in real time. In my undergrad days, we did a lab to demonstrate this; essentially we “bred” bacteria that glow in the dark.

I did know a guy at the time who was a microbiology major, but was highly religious. Turns out a large motivation for doing this major was “to disprove evolution.”

[FHRRK]

266. Let me try a different tract, that unfortunately won't even come close to answering your question.

We have some factual data points.

1. Majority of Christians vote for Republicans - Easy to prove
a. Vast majority of posters here do not support Republican ideas.
2. Majority of Christans voted for Trump in 2016 and 2017 - Again all data seems to support this.
a. Vast majority of posters here do not support Trump.
b. Very highly likely (you may want to create a poll) that the majority of people who post here were SHOCKED that the majority of Christians could be so supportive of such an immoral person. Take a guy who could be the Poster Child of the Seven Deadly Sins and elevate him to Leader of the free World.

So we have a group of people (as a group) who hold political beliefs opposed to most DUer's, that is going to create some conflict. Then add tRump to the mixture, the Poster Child for the Seven Deadly sins, that shocked many. IMO it is why church attendance is plummetting. Democrats as a group tend to be much more aligned with Social Justice, supporting the poor. Basically Dems align with the teachings of the Beatitudes. Yet, Republicans seem to work very hard to put in policy that contradicts the Beatitudes.

So finally my attempt to answer your question, (full disclusure, agree with basic premise that there are too many attacks against Christians) you and the majority of DU Christians are likely strong believers in The Beatitudes. Problem is, most of the people who identify themselves as Christians, those worthless fucks pay lip service to The Beatitudes.

So here is the issue, again from my perspective. When I hear someone leads with they were a Fraternity member in college, the senses go on alert. Is this person an asshole who needed large groups to provided support and safety. Did the person attend a certain University that tends to be a gathering point for entitled assholes? So based upon my experiences I basically go down a decision tree on the person. When life experiences provide knowledge that affords a decision based upon the majority of responses, that person starts getting lumped into the majority.

So, is every person who attended a Fraternity at USC and asshole, NO! But the VAST MAJORTIY of people I have met with those two data points are Assholes. The flaw in my process, I know these two data points from the Assholes because they felt it important to identify themselves as such very quickly in my encounters with them.

You have the same issue. A person who leads with the fact they are a Christian, (Think Mike Lindell - first time I saw his commercial - THIS GUY IS A MAJOR FUCKING ASSHOLE!) is going to put the senses on high alert. As more info comes out, a better assesment can be made.

But I get why people immediately react negatively against Christians, my opinion, people should gather a bit more data, with that I suggest Liberal Christians should realize why some have a negative original reaction, and be very understanding of those others.

When a non-Christian has seen a lifetime of Asshole Chistian Leaders align with RW assholes, what should they think?

You are on the inside, see the good, see the people who are good moral Christains. Step outside, just as it is painful for you to accept the negativity, it is equally painful for the non-beilvers to accept the naegativity driven by "Christians."

[gulliver]

267. It has adherents and detractors who are actually in the Church of Lost People

But Christianity, practiced with work, is a wealth of meaning and a source for good. Your points are all excellent. Thanks vm for posting.

[LakeArenal]

276. Tell your Christian leaders to get as noisy as "their" Christian leaders.

I don’t believe anyone on DU devalues those who actually do the work of Jesus.

If you know you have the real Christian values then it shouldn’t trigger you.

Believe me atheists get a lot of crap.
Especially from employers. Imagine a presidential candidate stating out loud that , the candidate, is an atheist.

My evangelical employer once asked me how can I have a moral compass. Imagine. He said at a fair employment conference that we have to hire every one. Even a Jew.

[oldmanlynn]

280. Christianity used to be considered a good thing but

Now, with all of the hateful things coming from Christian nationalist, and even some other Christian groups, like the concept of Christian Dominion over the governments, and their forceful push to have laws that harm others just because of their religious beliefs, makes the entire brand Seen in a negative light. Also, the fact that no other Christian groups are speaking out against those Christian nationalists mean that they’re seating ground to those people they’re letting those Christian nationalist define Christianity today and they’re not speaking out.


So I have no issues with the negativity being brought on all of Christianity none whatsoever, and if they wanna say that they’re not as bad as what people are making them out to be then go out there and stand up and stand against some of these other Christian fascism Christian nationalist are doing

[Voltaire2]

283. Was it a good thing when it was telling slaves to be good happy slaves?

Was it a good thing when the mormons excluded all black people as not sufficiently human?
Was it a good thing when the Southern Baptists openly supported segregation?
Was it a good thing when a Catholic Priest was pushing nazi propaganda before WWII?
Was it a good thing when the catholic church was running 'indian schools' in Canada that were engaged in cultural genocide and that killed an unknown (but likely in the thousands) number of children?
Is the ongoing decades long pederast problem in the Catholic Church part of this golden age?


When was this golden age of 'good christianity'?

[phylny]

284. Reminds me of Republicans saying,

“Why aren’t Muslims denouncing (fill in the blank).”

[chowder66]

288. Lots of Democrats are LGBTQ people. Why all the hate?

Lots of Democrats are women. Why all the hate?
Lots of Democrats are non-believers. Why all the hate?
Lots of Democrats are people of color. Why all the hate?
Lots of Democrats and future Democrats are survivors of rape and molestation or will be. Why all the hate?

I'm not talking about hate from DU. I'm talking about hate from Religious organizations and their very quiet congregations.

[applegrove]

289. We should always call them rightwing Christian extremists.

Never paint with a broad brush.

[Mariana]

305. My definition of "rightwing Chrstian extremist" is any Christian who voted for Trump.

By that definition, the majority of Christian voters in the US are rightwing Christian extremists.

[In It to Win It]

294. It's the right-wing Christianity that gets the "hate." Sen. Warnock is a Christian pastor, and he gets no "hate."

along with Reverend William Barber and many others.

Christianity pushes them to fight for causes of working people, expansion of voting rights, and maintaining or expanding the social safety net.

[TransitJohn]

300. personal experiences with shitty christians

Are just as valid as your personal experiences with a singular non-shitty one.

On edit: I got a bit further through the thread, and boy hiwdee, do liberal xtians just love to feel persecuted just as much as rightwing ones. Jesus!

[TexasDem69]

301. Some people are just intolerant

I’m a big believer in the First Amendment’s right to freedom of religion. It’s when people start mixing their personal beliefs with politics that it becomes a problem.

[Aussie105]

302. Sidestepping the real issue here.

The hate isn't directed at Christians or any other religious group, it is directed at mindless and dumb, destructive thinking and behavior, irrespective of a person's religion.

The 'logical' chain that leads to the OP concluding that all Christians are being targeted just isn't there.

Christians come in many styes, the dumb and self-destructive ones are subject to the same criticisms as anyone else.

The whole 'I am a Christian so you can't criticise me' thing just doesn't work for me. Your religion isn't a protective shield.

Sort out your inner dialog, OP!

[qwlauren35]

362. I tried to be specific.

I'm talking about Democrats who are Christian.

Pro-choice, LGBTQ loving Democrats who are Christian.

They get bashed. Their beliefs get bashed. It's crazy.

As an African-American, most of the people in my life are Christian Democrats. A few are born-again. A few are evangelical. A few of them are holding their noses about the pro-Choice thing. But they are Democrats. And they are Christian.

I have a friend who describes herself as a Left-Wing Feminist Christian Nerd. It fits her perfectly. But she is very guarded about telling people she is Christian. And I could see why. One of my other friends said "I didn't think you were Christian. You didn't seem like the type."

I have another proud Democrat friend who is Catholic. A strong feminist, supporter of the LGBTQ community, pro-choice, Biden-loving Democrat. She does NOT deserve to be bashed.

Over and over, I see people defending their positions, and their right to bash Christians. Not acknowledging the Christian Democrats in our party.

And I think that they are very lucky that the Christian Democrats don't leave and start their own party.

[Think. Again.]

303. Wow, this is a hot topic...

...when was the last time DU had a 300+ post thread on the discussion of the best ways to get our candidates elected?

[Happy Hoosier]

304. Religion is poison and creationism should be mocked.

There are religious people I admire, respect , and like. But they are rarer these days.

And creationism should be mocked. It is magical thinking which flies in the face of the evidence. It is pernicious and harmful.

[Progressive dog]

309. Disagreement is not the same as hate.

If Christians choose to believe in creationism, which has no basis in science, they don't get to teach it in public schools. That is not hate, it is keeping religion out of science.
I could care less if they think all their sins are forgiven by god as long as they don't don't expect everyone they've sinned against to forgive them too.
People should be treated as the individuals they are, not just as members of a group unless they have chosen to try to force others to bow to their beliefs.

[GenThePerservering]

311. If it bothers Christians that their religion

is being weaponized and used to indoctrinate hate and fear, they need to stop wringing their hands and crying 'but we're NOT all like that...', get up and fight back. You'll have a lot of people in your corner of whatever religion because twisting beliefs in the name of power is the definition of evil.

[LostOne4Ever]

312. If this is truly how X-Tians are on DU

Then they, above all others, should know and understand how their religion is being used to hurt us and should be both understanding enough and sympathetic enough to let people vent.

The good Christians I know are usually the first ones to bitch about Christians pushing hate. To attack the church for hypocrisy. And to have the empathy to understand our anger and frustration and not make everything about them by saying “not all Christians.”

In my opinion those who are the first get upset about venting and making things about them and their feelings when it is OUR rights getting taken away are usually fair-weather allies who will turn on us first.

[GiqueCee]

315. "Christianity" is a very broad spectrum...

... of beliefs. A great many "true believers" are genuinely good, kind people. But far, far too many are ruthless, manipulative opportunists who exploit the desperate and the gullible for their own enrichment. Joel Osteen doesn't have enough mansions; Creflo Dollar doesn't have enough jets? Give me a fuckin' break. These so-called "Christians" are lower than snake shit in a tire track.
I grew up under the influence of an über-religious mother. She was a decent person, but a deluded believer who let charlatans take advantage of her.
If unquestioning belief in something that has zero physical proof of its existence in the real world helps someone get through the night, I wish them well. But the second they try to ram it down my throat through misguided legislation, or any other coercive force, trust me when I say, my vengeance will be swift and severe.
Christianity, as it has been perverted over the millennia, has a great deal to answer for, but over the past fifty or so years it has metastasized into a monstrosity that the Nazz would neither recognize nor condone. MAGAts have publicly condemned the Beatitudes as too "Woke"! And too weak. Now, Christianity has been reduced to nothing but a tool of control and manipulation for believers in a malicious and vindictive Old Testament God, whose representatives on Earth are rotten to the very core of their being.
I'm lookin' at YOU, Mike Johnson.

[Act_of_Reparation]

330. I'll never understand where this notion that Christianity has been "perverted" comes from.

The general feeling seems to be that there was, at one point, the "original" Christianity, and that Christianity was "good". Then, somebody came along and changed everything, and this "new" Christianity is "bad".

Christianity is 2,000 years old. Even accounting for how the religion may have changed over this period, there is no reason to think that moral dictates cooked up two millennia ago would be in any way palatable to modern moral sensibilities.

[Mariana]

337. I don't think Christianity was ever "good".

Chapter 5 in the book of Acts describes how the Apostles used violence and fear to control the congregation from the very earliest days of Christianity. According to the story, Ananias and Sepphira sold some land that they owned, and gave some of the proceeds to the Apostles. Peter then demanded to know if they'd handed over all of the money from the sale. Of course they should have told him to mind his own business, but instead they lied to him, and they were killed for it. After that, the story says, "Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

[GiqueCee]

338. You're absolutely right...

... throughout its history it has always been a tool of control and manipulation; that's one of the multitude of reasons why I abandoned it.
But I can only speak with some degree of authority on what I have witnessed first-hand over the span of 60 years I was 16 when I came to the realization that it was the ultimate long con. My reference to its perversion is how I've seen it coopted in that period by cynical political opportunists who don't even bother to hide their craving of dominion over the lives of others. The perversion comes in the guise of sociopaths like Empty Greene, Bullet Boebert, and the dozens of other lowlifes who claim that God "speaks" to them, and that He's a Republican.
There are a horrifying number of people that fervently believe murdering their neighbors for not taking Jesus Christ as the personal Savior is perfectly reasonable. Just look at the millions their imaginary Sky Daddy smote just for the crime of wearing two different fabrics. (Leviticus 19:19)
So, yeah, it's always been pretty bad; but it's gotten a lot worse in a very short time. and they ain't NEAR done yet.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

316. A fellow DUer asks for respect

and there's an ugly pile on about why ridiculous fairy tales about a sky daddy invented by goat herders haven't earned respect, so don't expect any.

The need for some folks to mock and denigrate others on this thread makes it clear to me why Christians on DU would feel unsafe.

[Voltaire2]

325. Was there some other thread where that happened?

It sure as shit didn't happen in this thread, which is mostly people patiently explaining why religious beliefs should not be privileged, but instead held to the same standards as any other beliefs.

[ZonkerHarris]

319. I will NOT respect people's beliefs that preach that LGBTQ folks need to be killed or fixed etc

Fuck that kind of "Christian."

[herding cats]

321. I'm pretty sure every single one of us here agree with you on this.

And if they don't, then they're in the wrong place.

Any person who doesn't embrace the core value of equality to LGTBQ, women and minorities has no place here. Ever.

I'm guessing you're having issues with the fact the OP decided to use a false equivalency by saying how they decided not to think all Christians are hypocrites because of some Mexican and black stereotypes? That was pretty weak sauce, I agree. I mentally flinched when I read it. You don't get to choose your sexual orientation, gender, or your ethnicity, but your religion is most definitely a personal choice. As is how you chose to practice it. I just assumed they were a person who never had to deal with any real discrimination due to things beyond their control in their lifetime. So, they decided to stand up for Christianity because they knew a good Christian once. Again, Religion is a choice. Wars were fought repeatedly by religious factions trying to force their flavor down some other person's throat. Now they just shine up their ideological beliefs with the help of modern media and wage psyop wars as influencers.

As I said below, I've known, and know several kind, progressive and inclusive Christians. They're not the problem, rather they are our allies, It's the batshit crazy Evangelical ones trying to turn our nation into a theocracy based on their religious beliefs who are the problem. They're freaking dangerous and need to be stopped.

[herding cats]

320. I try very hard to be respectful of anyone who shares my core values.

I'm not religious, but I know, love and respect many people who are because they share my main goals for humanity. As such, they are my people. How we all arrived where we did seems like an afterthought compared to our work to be loving and empathetic humans.

The current push by the Evangelical Christians is scary, and I don't have a single friend of any faith who doesn't agree with me on that fact.

The religious rifts are a thing exploited by extremist in my opinion. I've seen so many of these arguments here over the years and yet I've remained consistently in the camp if you're a kind and decent human who votes for Democrats, you're OK with me.

We're fighting on many different fronts at this moment, the RW theocratic one is real, but it's not the only one we're up against. We need to stay focused and united if we have any hope to make it out the other side whole.

Oh, and I've seen so many fake (troll) anti Christian accounts pass through here. Same goes for fake indignant Christians. Once we even had a fake, Democratic LDS, kitten loving college student who had a merry time trolling about the place for a time. Turns out the jerk was just another incarnation of a repeat troll.

When it comes to the crazy shit I've seen here, I feel like a Farmers Insurance commercial. I know a thing or two, because I've seen a thing or two. Just know that the truly decent people seem to ultimately rise to the top in the end historically.

Our opponents need us divided. I think it's a foolish move to let them have their way (again) without engaging our brains and deploying some basic logical thinking without all the knee jerk reactionary stuff we always seem to be drawn into so easily.

[shrike3]

341. DU is not that kind of place.

Last edited Thu Mar 7, 2024, 12:09 PM - Edit history (1)

But it never has been. (Despite my post count, I've been here since the Bush administration.) And it's not supposed to be. There are safe haven groups for religious DUers. I'm active in one, the Catholic and Orthodox Christianity group. So long as that group is respected, I don't care what anyone says elsewhere on the site. And they should say whatever they wish: we're Democrats. They say plenty already, but the people here ARE passionate. They're not shy about their opinions, and as long as I can voice mine, I'm fine with that, too. If my opinions happen to be unpopular -- well, I'd better take my lumps.

Black churches are historically among the best friends the Democratic party has had, and I would like respect afforded to them: they've earned it.

I think it should also be noted that some of those fighting hardest for Democracy are people of faith. Biden, Pelosi, AOC. The Clintons and Obamas.

[Eko]

353. I'll take my lumps also. Although I come from the other side as shrike I agree.

We should be able to talk about this. There are quite a few of us that think that religion is a type of a belief structure that can easily lead to negative outcomes due to the structure of it. This in no way makes religious people bad but can still be a belief structure that if negated would lead to more positive outcomes. Is that definitive? Nah, I would say we need another 5-10 thousand years of human history to gather enough information to come to that conclusion,,, not that anyone would listen then either lol either way. I expect by then we will all just be like "Its too fucking hot".

[RoeVWade]

354. Enduring is supposed to have its reward. Complaining about it, no reward.

Here's my reference.

Matthew 10:22 KJV: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

See. reward.

I'm no Bible expert though. Don't follow it at all any longer.

[Elessar Zappa]

356. Agree.

I’m a Deist verging on agnostic and Christians are a huge part of our party. Black people are our most loyal base and the vast majority are strongly Christian. There’s no need to hate on Christianity unless it’s used by right wingers to deny science and promote hate.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

364. Are you your religion?

Because I hate Christianity the religion,belief system.I hate the bible and the words in it.

I have been abused by Christian’s as a kid and as an adult in a different way.

I am sure you are an ok person.I might even like you until I found out you are a christian. But I can’t trust a christian,I am wary of them.

I hate your religion it has led to so much pain and terror for me. I read the entire bible and it disgusted me and made my world nightmarish and I found I hate the christian god even more.

I was terrified of being left out of the rapture I literally panicked in a Wawa when I could not find my ex in the store (he went out to the car).

The teaching of Christianity can be read many ways, ways liberal people see it and in ways that justify conservative freaks. It is supportive of both sides and the only way to cut out the toxic is to edit the book very carefully.

The book has no morality in it nor is a model for moral life.. I get upset at nice christian’s that do nothing about the sick and evil people in their own churches. And tell me they are not like that even though the same book looks moral and good to them.

So many people have suffered and died in real life from your religion.So many lives wounded by that belief system.

I cannot stand walking into a church,I walk the other way when I hear anything about jaysus because it makes me sick inside.

You are a person and if I did not know you are a christian we may get along . If you felt compelled to tell me I would warn you once, tell you what happened to me and if you told me but those are not real christian’s I would run out of that relationship as fast as I could run.

Sometimes experiences change you.

[NanaCat]

365. Why the persecution complex?

When people criticize things about your religion, it's not hate. It's criticism. You want to know what it's like for people to hate you--really hate you--over your religion (or lack thereof)? Try not being christian in the US.

We're insulted for not being christian, belittled over it, get fired from jobs over it, are more apt to lose custody of our kids if we're married to a christian, and are more apt to be assaulted and even murdered over it.

Also: Do tell us how hated you are when multiple states have legal codes that make it illegal for people who don't believe in a supreme being to serve on juries, run for office, or hold any civil service position. Worse, those codes are still on the books. They can't be enforced, but those codes do exist.

Now show me one state that bars any christian from public service in any form, and put that in writing.

I'll wait.

You have nothing to complain about. Grow up and find a way to defend your religion in the marketplace of ideas without expecting people to give you special privileges on top of the already unearned privileges you enjoy.

[betsuni]

366. This is weird, too.

[Patton French]

367. The reaction to your post tells you all you need to know. NT

[Mad_Machine76]

378. I agree we should be respectful of people of all faiths here

I think that, however, most of the anger is directed more so at the more right-wing strand of Christianity promoted by the right-wing/Republicans and not necessary *all* Christians everywhere that tries to force their views, roles, edicts, etc. on everybody else. I don't practice religion myself but I don't generally have a problem with anybody who does as long as they don't attempt to force me to convert and/or try to impose their religious views on myself or other people, which I don't think that many (any?) persons of faith who post here or vote Democratic support either. Perhaps it would be better if people specified what they were upset about not and not condemn Christianity in general?

[Bmoboy]

381. Respect

“We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” - HL Mencken

Evangelism demands a higher level of respect. It requires belief and obedience.

No thank you.

[gay texan]

382. Christianity nearly got me killed

It caused my best friend to commit suicide.

It allows ignorance and hatred to breed.

It essentilly wasted 40 fucking years of my life because i couldnt come out.

I dont care if church XYZ is super duper, its still all BS.

It gives me great hope to see church attendance dropping every year.

[Handler]

387. I simply don't believe in Magic