Inside the Republican Attacks on Electric Vehicles

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

The electric vehicle, a breakthrough achievement in automotive technology, has driven into this year’s presidential election, inflaming partisan fights that have come to define much of American culture.

One reason is that President Joe Biden has made electric vehicles central to his strategy to combat climate change. This week, his administration announced the most ambitious climate regulation in the nation’s history: a measure designed to accelerate a transition toward electric vehicles and away from the gasoline-powered cars that are a major cause of global warming.

The political war over electric vehicles has been fueled by an incendiary mix of issues: technological change, the future of the oil and gas industry, concerns about competition from China and the American love of motorized muscle. And in the rural reaches of America, where few public charging stations exist, the notion of an all-electric future feels fanciful — another element to the urban-rural divide that underlies the nation’s polarization.

Biden’s opponent, former President Donald Trump, has for months escalated attacks on electric vehicles broadly and the new regulation in particular, falsely calling the rule a ban on gasoline-powered cars and claiming electric cars will “kill” America’s auto industry. He has called them an “assassination” of jobs. He has declared that the Biden administration “ordered a hit job on Michigan manufacturing” by encouraging the sales of electric cars.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-republican-attacks-electric-vehicles-142632044.html

If Biden said it was not healthy to eat shit the GOP would host an all-you-can-eat feces feast.

As for the love of motorized muscle the F-150 lighting accelerates from 0 - 60 in 4 seconds.

Seattle's Metro Transit uses electric trolley buses on their hillier routes because they work better than conventional diesel buses.

The big drawback to electric vehicles is the limit of range and dearth of charging stations in some areas.

[PJMcK]

1. "And in the rural reaches of America..."

Cities, too.

In New York, we park on the streets where there aren’t any charging stations. Parking garages that have them are outrageously expensive. A friend pays $1,000 a month to park and charge his Tesla!

Our country house is 125 miles from the city and it’s questionable if I could make a round trip.

I guess if there are more high-speed charging stations and longer-lasting batteries an EV could be efficacious for us.

[Silent3]

12. Why not charge when you get to the house?

You only need sufficient one-way range if you're staying overnight after arriving at the house, at least if you have a decent 220V charger at the house and aren't relying on slow 110V charging.

[Caribbeans]

16. Not everyone lives in a house

Imagine the cost to outfit a high-rise apt building with chargers.



Also, some garages were not built to withstand hundreds of 5-6000 pound vehicles per floor.

The idea that the future must be electric with huge heavy batteries that require 30-40 minute charges every 200-300 miles is absurd and will not work everywhere. It's just that simple.

[Silent3]

17. I made my comment specifically in reply to "Our country house is 125 miles from the city...

...and it’s questionable if I could make a round trip."

That comment made it sound like the person I was replying to would start out fully charged, however that might happen, leaving the city.

[Caribbeans]

18. And I made my comment to show that battery electric vehicles will never be practical for everyone

Renter and Homeowner Statistics 2024 - Making Sense of Housing Benchmarks

https://www.doorloop.com/blog/renter-and-homeowner-statistics

Fact: It will take more than li-ion batteries to get the entire world off of fossil fuels.

[edisdead]

40. Never?

Eyebrow raised…..

Never is a long time.

[Voltaire2]

59. Well that is ridiculous.

First of all, city charging can easily be ubiquitous as there are power lines running down every street. Street side charging is being implemented in cities here and in Europe.

You seem to have decided that no rental housing can possibly have ev charging. Again that is nonsense. Some already do, more will as demand increases.

[PJMcK]

49. I think you misunderstood my point

A charge that lasts 250 miles is really inadequate for our practical use. It would be foolish to assume that the distance is the only variable in the equation. Have you tried driving in a major city? You use far more fuel/energy per mile than when on an open road. Our Subaru gets 35 mpg and can go over 400 miles per tankful.

Besides, we don’t only drive back and forth to our home. Obviously we drive many other places. EV isn’t viable for us at this time. Our circumstances are hardly unique.

[True Dough]

53. And geography matters

because cities that experience cold weather during winters will see a reduction in battery range during cold snaps. Something along the lines of 30% less distance traveled on a charge. That makes a difference too.

[tinrobot]

22. How many people in that city (Hong Kong?) actually own cars?

Answer : Not many.

Gas cars are also impractical in a lot of cities.

[ForgedCrank]

98. What if

we don't want to stay overnight every time we reach the end of a charge cycle range? This requires stopping for HOURS every 200-300 miles, depending on the vehicle.. And yes, this is a thing for a lot of people. What If I'm towing? Then it's hours of charging every 80-100 miles.
Theres no way to re-word it, this will hurt large portions of Americans. It's a bad idea, and it's a bad policy decision.

[Voltaire2]

58. You charge at your country home.

All you need is a dryer plug. An electrician can install a 50amp nema outlet for a few hundred dollars.

Meanwhile tesla has an extensive supercharger network and New York has lots of them. 125 miles is simply not a problem.

[PJMcK]

64. Your assumption is wrong for us

We don’t just drive back and forth. NYC is not charger-friendly and parking garages that have chargers are astronomically expensive.

Whatever works for you at this time is your business. We’ll make our own judgments based on our experience research and common sense.

[Voltaire2]

65. Your specific example was your 125 mile trip to your country home.

And your 'worry' that an ev could not make the 250 mile roundtrip. If you can afford to live in NYC and own a country home, you can afford to put a 50amp plug at that home convenient for charging your car.

There are many tesla supercharger locations in NYC,. and 88 total across the state.

But concoct some other scenario.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. This sentence is the crux of the issue:

The big drawback to electric vehicles is the limit of range and dearth of charging stations in some areas.

Well said, my dear Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin!

[tinrobot]

24. You just stated the exact problem that Biden aims to fix

Sure, EVs are impractical for a number of people today. Doesn't meant that will always be the case, the problem can be fixed.

The GOP wants to limit progress and keep EVs impractical.

Biden wants to help us progress by lowering prices and making them easier to charge.

Pick your side in November.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

26. Pick my side? That's easy. President Biden IS my choice. And I already own an Audi e-tron electric car. nt

[PJMcK]

50. My choice of vehicle is not bound to my presidential vote

Your expressed opinion on EVs is not practical for many Americans. To think otherwise is simplistic.

EV is undoubtedly the future but our country has spent over 100 years building a system of roads that cannot support an immediate change.

[Voltaire2]

60. No everything is frozen as it is right now.

Nothing ever changes. Or something.

The reflexive aversion to evs just indicates how successful the current propaganda campaign from our friends in the fossil fuel industry has been.

[grumpyduck]

87. "The GOP wants to limit progress and keep EVs impractical. "

IMHO, this is the real issue. Fossil fuel companies pouring money into the gopers.

As far as charging stations, let's remember when cars first came out. There weren't gas stations all over the place, so cars were impractical for a lot of people. Nowadays there's a gas station almost on every corner.

As far as losing jobs... seriously? Car factories, dealers, maintenance workers, and all the rest will still be needed. Automation and robots? Somebody still needs to engineer them, make them, install them, and service them. Sure "older" workers in the industry may not be keen on the technology, but, as they retire, who will take their jobs? Kids who grew up with computers and cell phones.

[Think. Again.]

3. You write...

"The big drawback to electric vehicles is the limit of range and dearth of charging stations in some areas."

While it's true the electric charging industry is still young and hasn't yet put chargers virtually everywhere like the "corner gas station", the range trope is clearly a myth started by the fossil fuel industry.

Internal combustion engines average around 300 miles per tank, and EV's average around 350 miles per charge (dependin on model for both types, of course), but hardly anyone travels 300 miles in one trip on a regular basis anyway.

Plus, EVs can always be "topped off" at home overnight if someone does have to travel immense distances every day.

[Disaffected]

5. "Internal combustion engines average around 300 miles per tank,.."

Seems low. An AI app (Copilot) sez:

. The average range of a 2021 gas car is 403 miles, compared to 234 miles for battery EVs3.

. There are already EV models offered for the 2022 model year achieving a maximum range of more than 500 miles

I'm guessing both ICEs and EVs have improved in that respect since.

[Think. Again.]

8. Out of boredom...

I did my own math on a list of 42 EVs and their respective ranges listed on https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/every-ev-available-ranked-by-range/ in the article "Every EV Available in 2024, Ranked by Range" which claims it a complete list of all 2024 cars, SUVs, and trucks but it obvious that isn't true since some know vehicles like Rivian models ar not listed.

My result was an average of 275.54 per charge. Of course these are all just averages depending on road conditions, mechanical conditions, driving conditions etc, just like with ICE engines. The option to "top off" EVs overnight at home also throws all the numbers out of whack.

But then, if a person is driving more than 250 miles each day, cost of fuel is obviously a concern.

I took the liberty of very loosely averaging by eyeball the miles per $100 you can travel with ICE vs. EV from charts published at https://electrek.co/2021/07/27/ev-vs-ice-how-far-can-you-travel-in-each-state-for-100/ (there's large variation according to price of gas in different states, road conditions, etc.)

My loose 'eyeball' averages;

$100 = 950 miles ICE

$100 = 3,300 miles EV

So I guess we should be thinking about "wallet range" too.

[Disaffected]

13. Yes, wallet range for EVs is a lot better, for now.

Governments however are going to start imposing taxes on EVs to cover the loss resulting from electricity not being taxed for vehicle usage.

Such has already begun in Alberta where a $300/yr IIRC EV tax was recently announced. I imagine such taxes will increase and be more widely imposed as the ratio of EV to ICE vehicle numbers gradually increases.

[Think. Again.]

14. Wow, that tax is so much cheaper than the additional cost of gas would be....

EVs are just a much better deal all around!

Edit to add: I guess this article is correct about the rightwing efforts to pretend EV's aren't good compared to ICE's, they're GREAT compared!

[Disaffected]

15. Two comments:

That tax I suspect is just the beginning. Road construction & maintenance and all the associated infrastructure has to be paid for.

EVs are (still) too damned expensive and unreliable (in addition to the serious lack of charging facilities especially for those in apartments and with street parking only).

Another thing that bums me a bit is that you have to keep then plugged in in cold weather (if you don't have a heated garage). And, as far as I can tell, the electricity consumption just to keep the battery warm is considerable.

[Think. Again.]

19. Luckily, the added expenses you mention, if they actually do go as far up as you're fearing...

....will probably still come out to a much cheaper cost to drive than ICE vehicles, considering you get around 3 1/2 time more milage per dollar from an EV than an ICE.

Oh, and even ICE's need engine warmers in those cold tempuratures.

Edit to add: But like I said before, it seems rightwingers are determined to falsely undermine EVs no matter what the actual facts are.

[Disaffected]

29. Sure, EV bashing has become a right wing mantra.

A bit of clarification on the EV battery warming thing - the difference between EV and ICE in this regard is that the EV has to be, or at least should be, plugged in continually in cold ambient temperatures and not just a while before you wish to drive it as with an ICE. So, don't drive your EV for a week? Tough, the manufacturers recommend they be plugged in the full time to keep the battery temperature above about 0 C. Hard data is hard to come by (I've tried) but in some measurements I've seen cited by EV owners, said power consumption would be more than double what I'm paying for on my light bill now. One in particular was for a Bolt that was plugged in -20F IIRC. The heater, according to a power consumption graph device the owner had connected to his charger, drew about 2 KWs when on and it was on for approx. 50% of the time. Over the course of a month, that would imply a power consumption of about 720 KWHs (2 KW * 0.5 duty cycle * 24 hrs/d * 30 days/m).

That seems exorbitant and I hope it is wrong. I even wrote, by snail-mail, a letter to GM asking for info on the topic but, not surprisingly I guess, did not receive a reply.

My next car will likely be an EV but I think I'll wait a while for the battery tech to mature a bit more and prices to recede.

[Think. Again.]

34. I need to wait for the price drops too...

...but now that competition is spreading, and economy of scale is kicking in, I don't think it'll be too long.

By the way, do you happen to have hard numbers on what those cold ambient temps are before a warmer is needed? I know you mentioned -20F but do they need warming before it gets that low? Because I'm not sure an ICE vehicle would start at that temp even with the standard engine warmers.

[Disaffected]

36. China is now producing a small, pretty decent, basic EV hatch

with pretty good range (240 miles IIRC) and a price of $10K US. I don't know if it will ever be sold in NA in volume but, the price is pretty amazing. There's a US made YouTube somewhere of a favourable prelim review.

I imagine it's things like this that has Trump in an uproar about future prospects for the US auto industry...

As I understand it, lithium ion batteries cannot be charged if they are below about 0C or 32F and therefore the "need" to keep them at that temperature. Such also improves battery performance in cold weather and ensures regen charging will function w/o waiting for the battery to warm up while driving. Leaving the battery unplugged will apparently not damage it but, as mentioned, it cannot be charged until it is sufficiently warm.

I have also read that, if some makes are left unplugged in cold weather, the battery will use it's own stored charge to keep itself warm, at least until the state of charge drops to 20 % or some-such level. You then of course have to replenish that lost charge when plugged in later.

There is also the question of how fast, when and how full to charge the battery (you should try to limit the use of fast charging and, charging over 80% as both will shorten battery longevity). All-in-all, these things definitely need more user smarts than ICE vehicles to own & operate to best effect.

I would also like to know how long it would take a cold battery to warm up after being left cold and unplugged (haven't been able to find anything on the topic)

[Think. Again.]

38. No, that's not true, lithium ion batteries just take about a 1/3 longer to charge at 32F.

And there are all sorts of disadvantages and dangers to gasoline also.

Not to mention gasoline cars cost about 3 1/2 times more per mile to drive.

[Disaffected]

48. What's not true?

Again, referencing MS Copilot:

"Lithium-ion batteries can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced. No charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode."

Also, from:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures

"No charge permitted below freezing."

[Think. Again.]

55. Oh, "permitted"... I guess they don't want you to notice the reduced range...

This from https://electrifynews.com/news/auto/cold-weather-impact-on-evs-how-freezing-temperatures-affect-electric-vehicles/

Here’s how below-freezing temperatures affect an EV battery:

Reduced capacity – Low temperatures can cause the electrolyte fluid inside the battery to thicken, which reduces ion mobility and a decrease in capacity.
Slower charging times – Freezing temperatures slow down the electrochemical reactions within the battery, leading to a slower rate of charge.
Battery management software – This software is designed to keep an EV’s battery operating as efficiently and safely as possible, meaning it may take steps to protect the battery from permanent damage by limiting charging

For most cars, you might notice a drop of about 20% of your total range when temperatures hit around 32°F with a reduction of around 40% at 22°F. However, some vehicles are better in the cold than others. Take the Polestar 2, for example, which is used to the winters of Sweden and boasts about its cold-weather credentials with special Arctic driving events.

[MichMan]

71. What is the UAW opinion about Chinese cars being sold here?

[Disaffected]

82. I suspect

it would not be favourable unless some pretty serious provisions were in place - such as, they at least have to be manufactured in the US.

[yagotme]

73. Have started ICE engines at -30F.

Key components in winter starting are quality fuel, good, high amp battery, light oil. Oil heaters help, but are not "necessary" for cold starts. Don't know if E-car will function well at these lower temps. You will also use more battery running heater in car, so cold temps are a double whammy for electric.

[Think. Again.]

75. There's some very interesting articles about...

...EVs being used in the Arctic (or Antarctic, I forget) where temps are pretty low;

https://alaskapublic.org/2022/08/15/arctic-road-rally-aims-to-show-electric-vehicles-potential-in-alaska/

https://www.engadget.com/an-electric-car-completed-the-worlds-first-ever-drive-from-the-north-to-the-south-pole-073155506.html

https://www.arcticroadrally.com/

[yagotme]

76. Hmmm...

1st article:

The 2022 Arctic Road Rally got under way at 11 a.m. Friday, Aug. 12. The starting line was at the Golden Valley Electric Association’s headquarters on Illinois Street in Fairbanks. The 1,096-mile rally is expected to wrap up on Tuesday

.
1,100 miles in 4 days. In August. In Alaska. With purpose-built chargers installed on route. Not much of a "real-life" test.

2d article:

Depending on the weather, the duo would use either a 5kW wind turbine or a prototype solar hybrid charging solution to juice up their Ariya. Failing that, there were moments when they had to fall back to their petrol generator — a mandatory equipment for traversing the Arctic regions. Likewise with their diesel support vehicles, as no electric version of those exist. Chris explained to Expedition Portal that the purpose of "Pole To Pole EV" is to prove that electric vehicles make a viable replacement for existing diesel-powered expedition vehicles in the polar regions.

If wind or solar not available, had to fall back on generator. So, they wouldn't have made it, if not for gas. Article also didn't specify what range they were getting in the colder climates.

3rd article coincides with 1st article.

[Think. Again.]

77. Cool! So EVs DO run in cold weather!

Edit to add;

And wow, a lot of the sales of EV# in 2022 were in the Northeast!



You had me going there for a minute!

You should read the OP article.

[yagotme]

78. Yes, but how well?

That wasn't mentioned. Percentage of loss, due to weather and having to run the heater would have been nice to know...

[Think. Again.]

79. See the edit to my post above.

[yagotme]

81. I read the Op article.

It didn't address my question of cold weather information, either. I live in a small town, rural area. Closest public charging station is 30+ miles away. I have a separate garage, not rated for 220. It would be rather expensive to upgrade to electric, not counting the cost of the vehicle itself. And, below-0 weather isn't uncommon here in the winter. That's why I'm searching for those particular answers. Right now, electric is a no-go for me. I occasionally haul loads, pull a trailer. From what I have heard, that really eats up the battery charge.

[Think. Again.]

83. Yeah, heavier use is best done with heavy use vehicles.

...and you're absolutely correct, the misinformation being spread about EVs has definitely slowed down the progress we need to make selling them and building charging stations.

But I guess the more EVs that are sold, the more stations will want to make a profit on charging them.

[Disaffected]

84. Evs loose a lot of performance in cold weather

due to reduced battery power output and as you point out, the battery has to keep the car warm (resistive heating places the most draw on the battery but heat pumps do somewhat better (but not all EVs are available with heat pumps, such as the Bolt, and are extra cost options on some others).

[yagotme]

85. Yup. I know it would be a variable, but some info on

"how much" loss there is would be extremely useful to a future purchaser.

[Disaffected]

88. That's a hard number to pin down

and estimates vary quite widely depending on outside temperature, cabin temperature maintained, EV model, how warm the battery is when the trip begins, road conditions, change in elevation etc.. I've seen numbers in the range of a 50& loss in range in v cold weather (-30C) to 30% or so.

[yagotme]

89. That's what I mean.

SOME kind of number. A 30-50 percent drop is more palatable than "I dunno.".

[Tikki]

51. I live in So Cal..this is an EV Mecca..

There are EVs everywhere.
And as I walk my sweet dog in the neighborhoods I see EVs..of all sorts..in the driveways and garages of known
trump supporters.
Here it seems like they don’t care what trump thinks about EVs.

Tikki
P.S. And something I have noticed recently is a lot more young men driving the sporty looking hybrids.

[MichMan]

30. I have a mid sized sedan and mine has a range of 540 miles when I filled up today

[Think. Again.]

35. Wow, large tank.

[doc03]

4. How many charging stations are up and running from the infrastructure bill? Faux news

has claimed only 4, I am sure its more than 4 . Then there is the electric bill, last year I was paying $142
on my budget today my bill went to $194. I am not talking the monthly usage, that is the year around budget now.
That is $52 more per month out of SS, that alone takes my COLA. That makes a lot of disgruntled customers and voters.

[Think. Again.]

21. According to Consumer Affairs...

...there are 175,575 public charging outlets across 64,187 locations.
(Source: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/how-many-ev-charging-stations-are-in-the-us.html)

And the cost of driving an internal combustion engine is about 3 1/2 times that of driving an EV per mile.

[former9thward]

37. Is that counting battery replacement?

I didn't think so. In an earlier post you say you are waiting for the price to come down. So you are promoting EVs without even owning one?

[Think. Again.]

39. Yes, I like EVs better than ICEs even though I don't own one...

...I'd like a larger piece of property too, maybe someday.

But have you priced a replacement gas engine lately? Man, it's expensive.

[former9thward]

42. I have never had to replace an engine.

I have had many cars. Taken them to 250k to 300k miles. No replacement.

[Think. Again.]

43. From: The Dept. of Energy https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_benefits.html

"The advanced batteries in electric vehicles are designed for extended life but will wear out eventually. Several manufacturers of electric vehicles are offering 8-year/100,000-mile battery warranties. Predictive modeling (PDF) by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory indicates that today’s batteries may last 12 to 15 years in moderate climates (8 to 12 years in extreme climates). In addition to climate, other factors impacting battery life include driving and charging patterns, battery cell chemistry and design, and the vehicle-battery-environment thermal system."

So, even with the cost of replacing a battery after 12 years (about $10k), the savings per mile of an EV (3.5 times less than gasoline) alone will still save you money if you want to hang on to the car that long, and that's not including the other maintenance costs of ICEs that EVs don't have.

And that's at today's cost which have not yet come down due to market scaling or production development.

[former9thward]

62. Well good luck to you when you get your EV.

I don't want to have to worry about spontaneous battery fires when they are parked. Also I want a car that can go 2000 miles with a few minutes here and there for fuel stops.

[doc03]

45. Me either after driving for 60 years I have never replaced an engine or

transmission in any of my cars.

[Think. Again.]

54. So you've just sold or junked them?...

...or are you still driving your first car?

[doc03]

63. It says "cars" not one car. I have a 19-year-old Toyota Tacoma with 130000 miles. It has low

milage for a vehicle that old. But if they made EVs back in 2005 I would no doubt bought at least one maybe
two batteries costing thousands by now. I also have a 4-year-old Honda CRV with 48000 miles I may trade next year.
I considered a hybrid back in 2020 but ran the numbers and found I would have to keep it over 5 years to just break even.
I will do the same again but I am not paying more just to be politically correct. At this time I would not even consider an EV, I would have to make at least a 50 mile round trip to find a charger and one of the quick chargers I have no idea. Electricity went up 35 % last year, you are kidding yourself if you think once people get EVs they will be any cheaper to run that an ICE vehicle.
I think it is a mistake to try and force EVs on the public they don't want and can't afford, the auto companies are giving it second thoughts too.

[Think. Again.]

66. Someone has tried to force you to buy a car?

That must have been a scary experience!

[doc03]

68. That's what the government is trying to do. If we wanted them they wouldn't need to

pay tax credits for people to buy them. They keep raising milage standards on ICE vehicles driving up prices.
I am not against EVs, if we had the infrastructure for them. I am 76 years old I don't think that will happen in my lifetime though.

[Think. Again.]

69. Well you're right about the infrastructure...

...we've been very slow to build out any of the infrastructure we need to stop releasing CO2, but that's not because the tax credits, industrial loans, and other incentives have been too low, it's because the private investment needed to go along with all that is being scared off by the fossil fuel industry public relations firms (same one as the cigarette companies used!) that are promoting the misinformation you seem to enjoy.

[doc03]

44. There are 46.4% of them in just 5 states, I don't live in them. Then there is the extra cost of the

EV, the extra $200 for registration, the cost of installing a charger at home if you have a garage,
the cost of a battery and resale value. How do they figure the cost comparison for ICE and EVs?
Maybe it is 3 1/2 times in California but gas is here 1/2 what it is in California and my electric bill has gone up
35% in just one year. I considered a hybrid last time I bought a car all the extra costs would take 4-5 years to break even.

[yagotme]

72. According to your source, it's only 2x.

To illustrate the steps above with an example:

The household average of kWh is $0.16/kWh.
If you drove 1,124 miles a month, the average across Americans, with an electric vehicle averaging three to four miles per kWh, you will use an approximately 375 kWh per month.
$0.16 x 375 kWh = $60 a month to charge your vehicle
To compare this to an average car using fuel:

Assume that the average car gets 30 miles per gallon (mpg). 1,124 miles/30mpg = 37.47 gallons
Assume the gas price is $3.40 per gallon. $3.40/gallon x 37.47 gallons = $127.40 using gas

Not counting cost of installation of L2 charger, $1,800+.

[Think. Again.]

74. I arrived at my estimates using the charts in the article linked below...

...and I readily admit it is a very loose 'eyeball' estimate due to the variances in gas prices, electric prices, road and vehicle conditions, etc. from state to state.

This is from my post # 8 above:

I took the liberty of very loosely averaging by eyeball the miles per $100 you can travel with ICE vs. EV from charts published at https://electrek.co/2021/07/27/ev-vs-ice-how-far-can-you-travel-in-each-state-for-100/ (there's large variation according to price of gas in different states, road conditions, etc.)

My loose 'eyeball' averages;

$100 = 950 miles ICE

$100 = 3,300 miles EV

So I guess we should be thinking about "wallet range" too.

[superpatriotman]

6. My EV beats the tar out of any muscle car straight up

Exotics, too.

[NickB79]

7. The F-150 does have a range problem when towing loads

It's pretty well-documented that battery life falls well short when towing. So, if you need to haul a trailer or a bed of materials regularly, an EV F-150 is not for you.

That said, the vast majority of people driving F-150's use them almost exclusively for commuter vehicles, and never actually use them as a work truck.

[RubyRose]

9. Range is significantly affected by ambient temperature

too. We have a lot of cold weather states that are affected at least 25% of the year or longer.

[Think. Again.]

23. Yes, heavier use calls for heavy-use vehicles...

...it seems vehicle engineers are more inclined to use H2 as a better power source for larger work vehicles, public transit, farm equipment, etc.

[Maraya1969]

10. What do you say to these nitwits the tell you it will create more toxins to create

a battery than a gas car? I am thinking that batteries only need to be made once and they can run a car for a very long time where gas needs to be used with gas cars and every time they run they are shooting toxins in the air

[NickB79]

11. Eventually there will be a robust recycling program for batteries

The metals in them are too valuable to throw away.

[tinrobot]

27. There already are recylcing programs

But EV batteries can last a decade or more, so not much need for it at the moment.

[doc03]

46. I have a ICE pickup that is 19 years old, $10k for a battery is

more than the book value of the truck.

[tinrobot]

61. Some battery types last a really long time.

LFP batteries, which use iron with lithium are very robust and can last for 500,000 miles or more. Probably longer than the car itself. They're also cheaper to make than other lithium battery types.

One issue is that they're less energy dense than other battery types and thus are a bit heavier for the same range. They also have lower peak charging speeds. Always a trade-off, but that's the case with most things.

Tesla is now using these in the standard range Model 3. Ford is starting to use them in the F-150 as well.

[MichMan]

31. Probably ship them to poor countries so slave labor and children can extract anything of value

[former9thward]

41. You can name call but modern gas cars put out very little pollution.

Gas cars have many emission controls. They do not shoot "toxins in the air." Among them:

Catalytic Converter: This component helps convert harmful exhaust gases (such as carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides) into less harmful substances. It acts as a pollution filter for the exhaust system.

Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) System: The PCV system prevents the buildup of pressure in the engine crankcase. It reroutes fumes from the crankcase back into the intake manifold, where they can be burned during combustion.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve: The EGR valve recirculates a portion of exhaust gases back into the engine’s combustion chamber. This reduces nitrogen oxide emissions by lowering combustion temperatures.

Evaporative Controls: These controls prevent fuel vapors from escaping into the atmosphere. They include components like the charcoal canister and purge valve.

Air Injection System: Some vehicles use an air injection system to introduce fresh air into the exhaust stream. This helps burn any unburned fuel and further reduces emissions.

[Maraya1969]

86. So you are saying that commiting suicide by sitting in your car in a closed garage

doesn't work anymore? I know someone who did it and she ended up dead.

[former9thward]

90. That is not a greenhouse emission.

Which is what the debate is about. Carbon monoxide does not affect the climate to any significant degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas#Non-greenhouse_gases

[Maraya1969]

91. What you say is just wrong.

"How big is the impact of fossil fuels on climate change and our planet?
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has found that emissions from fossil fuels are the dominant cause of global warming. In 2018, 89% of global CO2 emissions came from fossil fuels and industry.

Coal is a fossil fuel, and is the dirtiest of them all, responsible for over 0.3C of the 1C increase in global average temperatures. This makes it the single largest source of global temperature rise.

Oil releases a huge amount of carbon when burned - approximately a third of the world’s total carbon emissions. There have also been a number of oil spills in recent years that have a devastating impact on our ocean’s ecosystem.

Natural gas is often promoted as a cleaner energy source than coal and oil. However, natural gas is still a fossil fuel and accounts for a fifth of the world’s total carbon emissions."

It seems like a lot of people disagree with you

https://www.clientearth.org/latest/news/fossil-fuels-and-climate-change-the-facts/

https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=how%20does%20burnin%20fossil%20fuels%20affect%20the%20climate&addon=chrome&addonversion=6.0.2&method=topbar

[former9thward]

94. You disagree, but scientists don't.

Carbon Dioxide or CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Carbon Monoxide or CO -- which is what we are talking about is not.

[Maraya1969]

96. How about UC Berkley?

https://ugc.berkeley.edu/background-content/burning-of-fossil-fuels/

And at the bottom there are several more links to explain how fossil fuels affect climate.

And Yale

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2020/03/burning-fossil-fuels-heats-the-climate-it-also-harms-public-health/

Environmental Protection Agency.

Greenhouse Gases
Concentrations of the key greenhouse gases have all increased since the Industrial Revolution due to human activities. Carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide concentrations are now more abundant in the earth’s atmosphere than any time in the last 800,000 years.5 These greenhouse gas emissions have increased the greenhouse effect and caused the earth’s surface temperature to rise. Burning fossil fuels changes the climate more than any other human activity.

https://www.epa.gov/climatechange-science/causes-climate-change

[former9thward]

97. No offense, but have you ever taken chemistry?

You keep posting articles about Carbon Dioxide which is NOT the same as Carbon Monoxide. The poster I replied to made a comment about Carbon Monoxide not Carbon Dioxide. You should stop digging this hole.

[Maraya1969]

99. Yes but I am sure you are better at it than me. What blows my mind is your refusal

to quit even when all the evidence is against you

[former9thward]

100. You are still digging.

Take a class. And maybe find out why other posters have not joined in on your side.

[Maraya1969]

92. Are you trying to say that green houses, complete with enough toxins is not affecting the earth?

[former9thward]

95. I have no idea what your post says.

I don't think anyone else does either.

[Goodheart]

20. I did my Louisiana state income taxes today, and guess what...

there's an additional income tax for owners of electric and hybird vehicles.

Fuck off Louisiana.

[MichMan]

32. How do you expect road maintenance and repairs to be done if EV owners aren't paying ?

[llmart]

25. Republicans don't like change and new initiatives.

There will be more electric cars in the future until everyone will have one whether they like it or not. The infrastructure will eventually catch up. The price will come down. The technologies will get better.

People felt the same way about cell phones back in the day or other inventions that we now all take for granted.

[MichMan]

33. "There will be more electric cars in the future until everyone will have one whether they like it or not."

Probably why they aren't fawning all over them.

[Groundhawg]

28. Republicans should embrace ev as expensive as they are. nt

[Hermit-The-Prog]

47. About 80% of commutes in the U.S. are within range of old lead-acid batteries.

We could have had mass produced electric commuter cars since the 1960s.

[SalamanderSleeps]

52. I agree.

The typical American drives less than 40 miles a day.

The "dinosaur juice is king" argument is getting thinner, and thinner.

[Mopar151]

56. The presumption that 1 vehicle has to meet all needs is costly and wasteful.

So, I m a car nut. There is a modified Holley HP"ish" 750 freshly reassembled on the dining table for an ITE Corvette today. I know some motorheads.

Who, mostly, think that they are a great option for a lot of people for some uses. Like going to work, groceries, kids, and parts chasing. But they have other horses in the corral - beefy pickups, campers, race cars, utvs/golf carts, tractors/mowers,
and "Sunday go to ice cream" cars, most of which have low duty cycles and decent fueling infrastructure. Not to mention they're family.
So, why not get an electric, and a Suburban for towing the sailboat? One word -Insurance!!!!

[MichMan]

70. Seems like having to buy both an EV and an ICE vehicle is also costly and wasteful?

[Mopar151]

93. How many screwdrivers are enough?

Can a sports car haul a yard of crushed gravel? Should you go mall shopping with a 34' .motorhome?

[gibraltar72]

57. American Petroleum Institute

running ads incessantly on streaming TV. Big print says Energy Citizens, Small print says paid by A P I.

[Martin Eden]

67. "If Biden said it was not healthy to eat shit the GOP would host an all-you-can-eat feces fest"

Oh please, Joe. Say it.

[DBoon]

80. I see a pattern here I've seen before on Electric Vehicle OPs

The OP consists of a broad statement that is optimistic about the chances of EVs becoming commonplace and mainstream, and maybe discusses the political implications of this trend.

The OP is *immediately* followed by posters complaining that *they* can' afford/use/maintain an EV, as though their personal situation proves that EVs are impossible and the OP is wrong.

I knew the before I clicked on the post that I'd see these irrelevant arguments. I was not disappointed.