General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMajority of Americans now oppose Israeli action in Gaza: Gallup poll
A majority of Americans disapprove of Israel's military actions in Gaza, in a stark shift since last fall, according to a Gallup poll released Wednesday.
Among Republicans, the percentage who approve of Israel's actions has dropped from 71% in November to 64% in March, the poll found.
The dip is even sharper among among Democrats. Fewer than one in five (18%) say they approve of Israel's actions. That's down from 36% in November.
Among people who identify as independents, the approval rating has dropped from 47% to 29% in the span.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/majority-americans-disapprove-israel-gaza-poll
Marthe48
(16,960 posts)and 1700 people murdered by terrorists. But I think Israel has retaliated long enough. I had the thought the other day that Israel has turned the phrase 'from the river to the sea' around. Either way, it's a terrible way to figure out a way to live together in the same bit of land.
I have friends on both sides and for that reason, I don't say too much, but I do keep in mind that hamas attacked unarmed civilians and ran amok. Both sides resorting to mass killing of civilians isn't going to make people anywhere forget the bitter history between Gaza and Israel. I don't know what will.
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)Umm, yeah. They retaliated enough long before they slaughtered and maimed and displaced and starved out tens of thousands of innocents, including countless babies, toddlers, children, and teens, and turned themselves into the world pariah. There is no coming back from these atrocities for Israel.
DENVERPOPS
(8,820 posts)what happens when you have a corrupt Right Wing leader............Take Netanyahu's actions as a harbinger of things to come under Trump, (or much worse), if he is "installed",........yet again.......
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)legal consequences. Their government might not last much longer but that's about it.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Israel's not retaliating but attacking until Hamas is gone or surrenders, that is called War
Nutty Putty
(25 posts)...and it's disturbing to know some can rationalize away the slaughter of children.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)Or that Israel isnt engaging in war crimes that far exceed in magnitude what was done to Israelis
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)....until they surrendered, then we stopped.
Israel is in the same mood, surrender or die, your choice.
Eko
(7,299 posts)The soldiers that were killed, the ships sunk and damaged, the planes destroyed and airbases damaged, attacking one of our largest bases and Japan attacking our allies and multiple countries in Asia killing hundreds of thousands. Yeah, it was the civilians killed at Pearl Harbor that did it.
NickB79
(19,243 posts)Vs 3 million Japanese killed, and entire cities obliterated.
Based on the "proportionality" hypothesis that keeps getting kicked around lately, that's still a worse response than the current war in Gaza.
Eko
(7,299 posts)That happened 84 years ago and the terrible event that Hamas did recently is not a good comparison at all. The scope is different, the technology is different and the world is different.
NickB79
(19,243 posts)Man's desire to kill others based on racism and religion remain.
And that's what matters most. New technology just makes it easier and more devastating.
A world war 80 some years ago where we did not have munitions that had pinpoint accuracy not to mention night vision, advanced optics, satellites, drones and a war that encompassed most of the world is the same as this small engagement and can be compared. Heck, we used nukes then, so by that logic nukes can be used again in this engagement since they are the same.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)While Hamas did just the opposite.
Israel has really no choice but to eliminate them to prevent future occurrences regardless of world opinion, their first duty is to the safety and security of their citizens
The rape of Nanjing?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Certainly not why the US declared war on Japan but it is one of the reasons for our economic embargoes as it should have been.
My point was more that if the Japanese had killed as many American civilians proportionately to how many Israelis died I hate to think what our response would have been.
Eko
(7,299 posts)We actually had Chinese regiments fighting with us against the Japanese.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)That expansion into Manchuria, teh Rape, etc., were all part of WWII. It is all part and parcel. You are being disingenious.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)The Japanese invasion of Manchuria was in 1931, the Rape of Nanking was in 1937, 4 years before Pearl.
I never said those weren't part of WWII, they were the start of WWII.
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)I think you can realize that surrender isnt likely. As for dying, the IDF has to kill every last Palestinian to bring that about and given that their horrendous actions against Palestinian civilians, thats creating more terrorists there, that aint likely to happen either.
I happen to think that the Allies did commit war crimes in WW2, so Im not fazed by your argument re the massacres of Japanese civilians.
The Viet Cong committed atrocities, but that doesnt justify what took place at My Lai. Yes, my friend, Americans can commit war crimes. Similarly, the atrocities Hamas committed on Oct 7, doesnt justify the targeting of civilians in response.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Just the one who pick up weapons.
The more dead Hamas the more the rest will get the idea that it is unhealthy to fight the better equipped & lead IDF
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)the more likely the will be to pick up weapons and join Hamas. And after 75 years of conflict there, it does not seem that more Hamas deaths ever lead to people coming to the conclusion that it is unhealthy to fight the better equipped IDF, which has been better equipped for decades now.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,369 posts)by the IDF were actually armed?
Even the IDF is not making that claim...
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)DemocraticPatriot
(4,369 posts)Except they were NOT armed....
You posted
" They don't have to kill all Gazan's
Just the one who pick up weapons"
Hell, even being unarmed and waving a white flag of surrender won't stop the IDF from killing you in Gaza...
Several instances of this have been documented, including the case of the Israeli hostages whom the IDF gunned down...
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)As recent wars show
432,093 civilians have died violent deaths as a direct result of the U.S. post-9/11 wars. An estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones, bringing the total death toll to at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,369 posts)very likely the victims of American anti-aircraft fire, rather than victims of the Japanese-- but nobody wanted to talk about that for a long time.
All those shells that went up and didn't hit aircraft, had to come down somewhere... Later investigations determined that at least 40 civilian casualties were caused by American anti-aircraft fire from the ships.
As far as the mass deaths of Japanese (or German, for that matter) civilians in World War II goes, I hope we have moved beyond thinking that it was justified, excusable or not in fact a "war crime". Hell, even General Curtis LeMay who led Army Air Forces which engaged in firebombing in Japan, recognized that he would probably be charged with war crimes for these attacks, if the Allies didn't win the war...
I don't excuse or justify what we did to civilians in Japan and Germany in World War 2, and I certainly don't care to see those numbers used to attempt to excuse what Israel is doing today in Gaza.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Merely pointing out the IDF wasn't going to stop after they had killed a equal number of Gazan's, their aim is the surrender or eradication of hamas, they will stop when that is done, just like we stopped bombing Japan after they surrendered, because that is the goal, not "genocide" like many here think
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)You don't stop once you've hit a certain number of people killed.
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)Once it was realized that the death and destruction there wasnt getting us anywhere.
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)Mossfern
(2,507 posts)It is a war crime for combatants to use hospitals, schools and places of worship as a base of attack.
What are the war crimes that Israel committed in this conflict? Since when is a country that is attacked responsible to provide food and supplies to its enemy?
I'm more than willing to read any citations that you provide.
* I seem to have lost my way....I wasn't replying to the post above this?
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)Well look at these links then:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/03/19/israeli-forces-conduct-gaza#:~:text=Oxfam%20and%20Human%20Rights%20Watch%20have%20observed%20or%20documented%20that,the%20civilian%20population%2C%20deprived%20the
And read this:
"Analyses by CNN, The New York Times, and Sky News all found that Israel had bombed areas it had previously told civilians to evacuate to. . . . NYT found that Israel had dropped 2,000 lbs. bombs in those areas while CNN stated it had verified at least 3 locations Israel bombed after telling civilians it was safe to go there." i.e. civilians were targeted. - Wikipedia.
If you disagree that telling civilians where to go to for safety and then bombing those places constitutes a war crime(s), then well just have to disagree then.
DemocraticPatriot
(4,369 posts)by the other side, period.
Hamas fighters are terrorists-- but I expect better from Israel.
I didn't expect them to act like terrorists.
TexasDem69
(1,777 posts)Israel is engaging in war. Hamas can surrender and stop the bloodshed but it wont because its goal is to kill every Jew in Israel.
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)Our research points to damning evidence of war crimes in Israels bombing campaign that must be urgently investigated. Decades of impunity and injustice and the unprecedented level of death and destruction of the current offensive will only result in further violence and instability in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, said Agnès Callamard. - Amnesty International
Damning evidence of war crimes as Israeli attacks wipe out entire families in Gaza - Amnesty International
"The vast majority of Gazas population has also been forced to flee their homes, many as a result of Israeli actions that amount to war crimes." - Human Rights Watch
Israeli Forces Conduct in Gaza | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)
You can disagree me and Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam, and others about what constitutes war crimes, but just know that many of us don't automatically think that atrocities committed by Hamas allow Israel to flagrantly disregard international law in their response.
The US was involved in a War in Vietnam. That doesn't mean that it didn't commit war crimes in that war. Saying that Israel is involved in a war doesn't preclude it from committing war crimes as you seem to indicate. As I wrote to someone else here, the Viet Cong committed atrocities, but what happened at My Lai was still a war crime, when innocent civilians were targeted.
"Analyses by CNN, The New York Times, and Sky News all found that Israel had bombed areas it had previously told civilians to evacuate to. . . . NYT found that Israel had dropped 2,000 lbs. bombs in those areas while CNN stated it had verified at least 3 locations Israel bombed after telling civilians it was safe to go there." i.e. civilians were targeted. - Wikipedia
TexasDem69
(1,777 posts)And not genocide. The Holocaust, Armenia and Rwanda were genocide. No rational person seriously thinks Israel is committing war crimes. Forced to flee their homesthat sounds like shit that happens in war, especially when Hamas terrorists are embedded in homes, hospitals and schools in the neighborhood
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)are full of irrational people. And telling fleeing civilians that they can evacuate safely to certain locations and then bombing those locations doesnt amount to war crime(s). WTF??? (See my last paragraph in my prior response to you). These civilians were targeted.
Was My Lai a war crime? It targeted innocent civilians too just like the actions mentioned in the above paragraph did.
Im afraid Im just going to have to disagree with you there, and on top of that consider that all those who consider the above actions to be war crimes to be fully rational people.
Btw, I never accused Israel of genocide.
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)genocide has been a long standing tactic of war. It was practiced by both sides in WWII and our country has participated in it several times such as during the Spanish-American war.
peppertree
(21,635 posts)So many of history's monsters do.
Celerity
(43,380 posts)Israel revises death count from Oct. 7 Hamas onslaght, dropping it from 1,400 to 1,200
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-revises-death-count-from-oct-7-hamas-onslaght-dropping-it-from-1400-to-1200/
brush
(53,778 posts)Mossfern
(2,507 posts)I haven't seen any.
Please don't conflate support of the existence of the State of Israel with the ability to defend itself against future attacks from those who have already broken cease fires with support of Netanyahu or Likud.
brush
(53,778 posts)Mossfern
(2,507 posts)It's the intent to destroy or cripple Hamas so there will never be an attack like 10/7 again.
It's a war that Hamas started and Israel is seeking to end. All that needs to happen is for Hamas to surrender and return the hostages. As long as their charter includes the eradication of Israel and the death of all Jews there will be no peace if Hamas is in charge.
brush
(53,778 posts)That's a ratio of around 20 Palestinians killed vs 1 Israeli.
You might not see it as over retaliation but the polls show that the US public and the world thinks so.
When is the killing for Netanyahu enough?
And when is Israel going to kick his corrupt ass to the curb and put him in jail?
Mossfern
(2,507 posts)As soon as this war is over Israel will kick Bibi out. There were protests and charges against him before 10/7. The Hamas attack actually helped Netanyahu stay in power.
brush
(53,778 posts)to stay out of jail. Israel needs to work with the US and UN towards a ceasefire and two-state solution.
And put Netanyahu's corrupt ass in jail.
He hasn't done his job to protect Israel. He and Likud were warned a big attack was coming and they did nothing to re-enforce the border.
And there's still no explanation for the multiple-hours delay of the IDF fighting off the Octl. 7 attackers. Don't you wonder about that? They were warned months before Oct. 7.
Where were they?
Mossfern
(2,507 posts)I agree.
That doesn't mean that Israel isn't fighting a war for survival
It was the Right wing that killed Rabin, but until this war is won by Israel, and Hamas is defeated, Israeli politics will take a second seat.
1. Win the war
2. Kick out Netanyahu and diminish Likud's influence.
3. Implement a two state solution with safeguards to both Israelis and Palestinians.
Remember: It is Hamas that wants to kill all Jews - in their charter. There is no institutional hate for Muslims or Arabs in Israel. Those educated in UNRWA schools need to be re-educated as well as the right wing Ultra Orthodox indoctrination of their children. It will take generations.
I'm an American, even though I may be Jewish, I have very little influence over Israeli politics.
TBF
(32,060 posts)brush
(53,778 posts)Avalon Sparks
(2,565 posts)Its not retaliation, its a land grab by genocide. Israel has already mapped out Gaza, even named the streets.
Marthe48
(16,960 posts)I had read that 1700 people died, had not seen a revised number.
womanofthehills
(8,709 posts)The American people do not want to see hundreds of thousands of people starve.
The American people do not want to see small children bombed to death while they sleep.
The American people do not want to continue funding Netanyahus cruel war.
brush
(53,778 posts)Is that enough now to satisfy warmonger Netanyahu?
When will the killing stop?
enid602
(8,620 posts) . . isn't going to make people anywhere forget the bitter history between Gaza and Israel. I don't know what will.
Look to FDR, JFK, RFK, LBJ, MLK, BHO. Malcolm X. Look to the examples of the MILLIONS of US Jews who fought for Civil Rights in America. Tune out the likes of Netanyahu, Smotrich and Gvir.
W_HAMILTON
(7,867 posts)When you are attacked the way they were and you still have hostages being held and tortured by the terrorists that started this to begin with, what do you do? Nothing? "Retaliate enough?" I don't know what the answer is, and I don't like Netanyahu one bit, but I would imagine most countries would be still fighting right now if such an attack were launched on their country and there were still hostages being held.
jimfields33
(15,803 posts)Every Hamas person is captured or dead. I dont believe the job is done. The best Hamas can do is turn themselves in and let this be over.
David__77
(23,404 posts)Rec
BuddhaGirl
(3,607 posts)n/t
NickB79
(19,243 posts)And indoctrinated as they grow up, in Hamas-run schools, to take up arms at age 16 in their never-ending war to exterminate the Jews.
Hell of a future, eh?
TheRickles
(2,063 posts)NickB79
(19,243 posts)*Jews merely exist in Israel
*Terrorists created
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)womanofthehills
(8,709 posts)Treating the kids of the West Bank so badly - no kid needs indoctrination from school -the kids live in terror. The military grabbed a 3 yr old for throwing stones & we watched his brothers & sisters & mom fighting the soldier to get the toddler back. A video yesterday, shows a boy about 8 with his mom in a store - military walks in slaps boy in the face - pulls kids shirt off, rips up his shirt in pieces ,mother gets in front of kid, military grabs stuff from store - doesnt pay & walks out. Multiply these videos by hundreds online .
Video yesterday of an Israeli .class attacking a student dressed as a Palestinian. Goes both ways.
DENVERPOPS
(8,820 posts)the treatment and killing by Netanyahu of the Children is horrific. Of course, on a slightly lesser scale, what happened under Trump at the Mexican Border when Trump forcibly separated the parents from the children, held the children in pens, and then disappeared them all to who knows where, with no paperwork to help trace them......That is tragic behavior by the U.S. Gov't under a quasi tyrant........
Trump, Republicans, and Putin ETC all love Netanyahu.........
NickB79
(19,243 posts)Hamas stated goal in their charter is the extermination of the Jewish people. Full stop. They don't want peaceful coexistence, and never have.
Mad_Machine76
(24,412 posts)than Hamas recruits?
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)All I have seen is "children" which to Hamas also means 16 to 18 yo Hamas members killed while firing rockets at Israeli cities and firing RPG's & AK-47's at the IDF
Chakaconcarne
(2,453 posts)patphil
(6,176 posts)Retaliation has long since moved over into the revenge column.
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)everything to do with Netanyahu using 10/7 as an excuse for a total land grab of Gaza. He wants all the non-Israeli human beings cleared out through any means necessary.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)twodogsbarking
(9,750 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,690 posts)We need some kind of solution to this problem. Something lasting. Something final.
If they die, who cares? Israel is evil.
At least that's what I'm told by lots of people to my face (and I am evil even though I am not Israeli but wear my Star of David and have my Hammsa tattoo in a very visible location.
Remember, before Israel (and the majority of the people there) arrived, we didn't have an enemy in the Middle East. Now, because of Israel and those people, we have no friends.
Do I need the sarcasm thing?
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)It's also horrible that what you describe is basically Netanyahu's attitude towards Gaza.
If we consider the decimation of one group of people to be very wrong, we should also consider the decimation of another group of people to be wrong. Gazans are just as human as Israelis, and vice versa.
LexVegas
(6,063 posts)sarisataka
(18,655 posts)as reference for the next time Gallup put out an unpopular poll result...
womanofthehills
(8,709 posts)Almost everyone knows everyone . My Dem friends are horrified with whats happening in Gaza but my Republican friends are pro Israel.
murielm99
(30,741 posts)They never do.
PatSeg
(47,436 posts)answer the phone when they don't know the caller and most of them don't have landline phones anyway. I can't imagine how on earth they can get an accurate sampling these days.
Ping Tung
(550 posts)sarisataka
(18,655 posts)to accept a two-state solution?
Ping Tung
(550 posts)Go to the UN and let it arbitrate a two state solution.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)How do we, or the UN, convince them to accept a two-state solution?
Ping Tung
(550 posts)sarisataka
(18,655 posts)As long as Likud and Hamas rule their respective areas.
The Likud party can be voted out of office, replaced by those willing to accept a two-state solution.
If there is a group willing to lead the Palestinians to a two-state solution, I am unaware of it. Perhaps one can be formed if elections were allowed.
Unfortunately that would require two very difficult things. One would be massive international international intervention into Gaza to take care of the people and rebuild. The second could possibly be even harder. There would have to be international guarantees of israeli safety during the process.
Beastly Boy
(9,347 posts)Posted as OP in General Discussion
Mossfern
(2,507 posts)Ping Tung
(550 posts)I suppose the UN is run by the Deep State or the FSB? MI6? CIA? PTA? Surete? Fred's Motorcycle Repair and Spy Agency?
Gazans do not want a two state solution.
I believe most Israelis are (or used to be.)
Emile
(22,752 posts)Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)Emile
(22,752 posts)Avalon Sparks
(2,565 posts)You dont really think Israel will stop after they take the Gaza Strip, do you? Next up, West Bank (already happening), then Yemen, Syria and so on. They want/need more land.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)But I have a suspicion that you are serious...
Avalon Sparks
(2,565 posts)There are videos out there from leadership directly stating such. Maybe it wont happen directly after they take Gaza, but yes Im serious in believing what they actually have directly stated internally. Seems like they consider every Muslin to be a terrorist. I also believe they are only creating more enemies in the Middle East by their recent actions, and unfortunately they will never be safe.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)And how would Israel invade Yemen? More to the point, why would Israel invade Yemen?
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)They don't need more land and they've already returned land to neighbors that they took during previous wars.
NickB79
(19,243 posts)Because you know they will.
Either the new Israeli government responds with military force, again, or they'll be voted out and Lukid will return to power.
Literally every potential Israeli leader would have responded to 10/7 with an invasion of Gaza, and thousands of civilian casualties.
No nation anywhere would have peacefully sat on their hands, had an attack similar in scope to 10/7 taken place on their soil.
PCIntern
(25,549 posts)Base their policies upon what the American people think because thats worked out so well for Americans. And they MOST CERTAINLY would rely upon a poll because we ALL know how accurate THEY are. Red Wave, anyone??
TBF
(32,060 posts)This is a complicated situation that really only came close to peace when Clinton was in office. I'm not convinced Netanyahu is the leader to bring peace - given that he appears to be as much of a right-wing lunatic as Trump and Putin - but what would we have him do given that his country was attacked and hostages are still being held.
eta - looking at the poll itself - "Methodology: This poll was conducted between March 1-20, 2024 with 1,016 adults. The margin of error is +/- 4 percentage points." This is not a very big sample.
AZLD4Candidate
(5,690 posts)have been the whipping boy for the world for 2000 years. They can do nothing right and no one cares if they die, are killed, or are marginalized.
But if they start winning or doing something to benefit themselves, the world loses their shit.
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,690 posts)Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)How does that relate to my question?
AZLD4Candidate
(5,690 posts)IF you support Hamas, more power to you.
I don't.
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)That old saw is not going to silence people anymore. But nice try.
Sky Jewels
(7,096 posts)We spend untold trillions of money on the military and intelligence, and they were USELESS to defend us when we got attacked ... on U.S. soil! Then, what do we do in the aftermath? Brutally invade a country that contributed ZERO hijacker/terrorists, and slaughter tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, who had NOTHING to do with 9-11. Meanwhile, the real culprits, the Saudis, continued to get their asses kissed.
TBF
(32,060 posts)You can throw sand all you want but I'm not giving up on Israel. I may not love Netanyahu but I am also having a really hard time seeing folks like Hamas and Hezbollah as "freedom fighters". And I stand by my point - any other country would be allowed to defend themselves against a terrorist attack.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)"Should Israel leave Hamas in power in Gaza?" Yes or no.
Takket
(21,568 posts)They had no right to invade and never should have and they should invaded to defend themselves but they are going too far in their tactics
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)Bonx
(2,053 posts)David__77
(23,404 posts)Bonx
(2,053 posts)brewens
(13,588 posts)to stop fighting over that bullshit.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)budkin
(6,703 posts)Yes I know the attacks against Israel were horrific, but that doesn't give them the right to wipe out tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians.