General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI firmly believe the use of the word "genocide"
in reference to Israel and Gaza is an effort by some to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israel's right to exists. Those who don't think this and use the term are just aiding this effort.
It is similar to saying "From the River to the Sea" with out acknowledging it is a call to destroy Israel.
Israel has had a disregard for civilian casualties, and that is wrong. But I see no evidence that they wish to kill the population of Gaza, and that is what genocide is. The Holocaust, Armenia, Rwanda, that is what genocide looks like.
If this is genocide, so was the US bombing of Japan in WWII, or the Iraq War. War time casualties, even if the country doing it is indifferent, is not genocide.
lark
(23,102 posts)That is bibi's aim, clearing out all Palestinians from land Israel stole.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)Is that conjecture? The IDF hasn't "Carpet Bombed" anywhere in Gaza up to this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)The way some people toss around the expression 'carpet bombing', that might as well be what they're talking about. To them 'carpet bombing' means more than one bomb, or some other vague idea.
Phoenix61
(17,006 posts)Bombing the area you told people to seek safety at is what then?
edhopper
(33,580 posts)genocide?
Phoenix61
(17,006 posts)Did the country of Germany declare war on another country?
thucythucy
(8,055 posts)Not sure what your point is.
Massive civilian casualities aren't genocide if there's a formal declaration of war? Is that what you're saying?
Or is it that Hamas didn't issue a formal declaration, but "merely" declares that its aim is to destroy Israel and kill Jews, and "only" launched a wave of gang rapes, torture, kidnappings and murder of Jews in Israel, and so therefore these civilian casualities are in a different category than the hundreds of thousands of Japanese, German, and Italian civilians killed by the Allies in World War II?
Seriously, what's the reasoning here?
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)... whether or not they declared war, they certainly committed an act of war.
I certainly have my criticisms of Israel, especially under Likud control, but they certainly have the right to counter-attack against Hamas and force their complete destruction. If Hamas chooses to resist to the last Palestinian civilian, that's on them.
Phoenix61
(17,006 posts)Not exactly a representative government, is it.
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)Im not blaming Gazans for the actions of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas has chosen to hide among them.
Phoenix61
(17,006 posts)JERUSALEM, Dec 31 (Reuters) - One of the senior figures in Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing coalition called on Sunday for Palestinian residents of Gaza to leave the besieged enclave, making way for Israelis who could "make the desert bloom".
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-repeats-call-palestinians-leave-gaza-2023-12-31/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2031%20(Reuters),%22make%20the%20desert%20bloom%22.
How much clearer could they make it?
cayugafalls
(5,641 posts)Asking for the love of all humanity.
Peace and Love
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)Voltaire2
(13,041 posts)In WWII there was no war crime of genocide.
obamanut2012
(26,077 posts)The WWII Holocaust is not the only terrible event that is a genocide. There were many before then and many after, including other genocides going on now.
Faux pas
(14,681 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,616 posts)The UN Genocide Convention defines genocide as:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (this includes famine)
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)"in whole or in part" deaths and destruction of a group of people is part and parcel of war.
If we broaden the definition of genocide to cover basically ANY war, WTF good is the term?
Fiendish Thingy
(15,616 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)Do the rules of war permit hiding in hospitals and schools? Preventing the civilian population from evacuating? Ive actually read the Geneva Conventions.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,616 posts)War crimes on both sides dont make it a just war.
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)Wars are very hard on civilian populations. Always have been. In April of 1945, over 125,000 civilians dies in the Battle of Berlin. No one called it genocide then, becauser it wasn't.... the enemy was holed up in an urban environment. They weren't surrendering. No one suggested a "permanent ceasefire" with the Nazis because we knew they had to be completely defeated.
Not mention that we were seeing exactly what a REAL genocide looks like as Allied armies found the concentration camps.
That's not to say Israel isn't doing things that I think are worthy of criticism. They are, and frankly making a terrible mistake in the process. Bibi and Likud intend to leverage this as much as possible to their advantage. IMHO, we should, at this point, severely restrict aid and military cooperation with Israel until they can accept some guardrails on their tacts and strategy. They are setting themselves up for ultimate failure, IMO.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)Israel might be culpable of war crimes, but that is not genocide.
Harmony Starshine
(12 posts)When a word or concept is used inappropriately it robs it of the power of its truth.
BunkieBandit
(82 posts)it would still be a terrible situation in Gaza. Many left leaning governments in Israel would have done the same. The IDF does not operate differently depending on "who's" in power. They don't go half-ass. Bombs and bullets from either party wreak havoc.
Autumn
(45,092 posts)There's your evidence right there.
Mysterian
(4,587 posts)Just like the nazis turned Germany into a war zone.
Palestinians need to find people who are not terrorists to run their government.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,319 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#Similar_sayings_by_the_Israeli_right
Maybe the situation is not as black and white as you see it.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)saying Palestine will be free from the River to the Sea? Sorry that is exactly what it means to those saying it now.
Black and White.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)snip
...................According to American historian Robin D. G. Kelley, the phrase "began as a Zionist slogan signifying the boundaries of Eretz Israel." Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov notes that Zionist usage of such language predates the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 and began with the Revisionist movement of Zionism led by Vladimir Jabotinski, which spoke of establishing a Jewish state in all of Palestine and had a song with the slogan: "The Jordan has two banks; this one is ours, and the other one too," suggesting a Jewish state extending even beyond the Jordan River.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_East_Bank_of_the_Jordan_(song)
"The East Bank of the Jordan" (Hebrew: שמאל הירדן, Smol Ha'Yarden, also known as שתי גדות לירדן, Shtei Gadot La'Yarden, lit. Two Banks to the Jordan) is a song written by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the Revisionist Zionist leader. The song became one of the most known leading songs of the Revisionist Zionist youth movement Betar. The song includes four verses. Each verse ends with the following line which is the main political message and theme of the poem:
"Two Banks has the Jordan This is ours and, that is as well."
Jabotinsky wrote the song in 1929 while visiting Paris. The first version of the song was handed to the Zionist Students' union "Yardeniya" in Kaunas, on 18 November 1929. In a later version, which is the one known today, the song was published in one of the Yishuv's daily newspapers, "Doar Hayom", on 11 April 1930.
Was it a call for genocide and/or ethnic cleansing when Likud used it?
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
edhopper
(33,580 posts)and other pro Palestinian groups use it. It means the end of Israel. Period.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)edhopper
(33,580 posts)without obfuscation.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)No. Period. Likud was stating Israel, the country that was there had a right to continue to exists. Hamas uses it to destroy Israel and have a Palestinian State, which they run. Two different meanings for the same phrase. ALL who use it today are using it in the way Hamas does.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)wherein they mean the destruction and/or removal of the opposing side from both the land and from the wielding of any meaningful political power.
Some elements of both sides DO mean just that. All of those elements on both sides engaged in those types of epistemological framings and power projections are wrong for doing so.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)thomski64
(454 posts)...true God on their side..
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Mosby
(16,313 posts)When Israel declared independence in 1948, they made everyone a citizen. The revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.
When the Israeli government signed the various agreements in the Oslo Accords, which acknowledged Palestinian national aspirations and created a path to a two state solution the revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.
When PMs Barak and Olmert made offers in 2000-01 and 2007 that would have created a Palestinian state the revisionist Zionists didn't have a say about that.
You are doing the same thing that others do where they find a historical quote from someone associated with Israel or Zionism and use that to insinuate things about the modern government. It's a sleazy, intellectually lazy tactic.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)I brought up the Revisionist Zionists' usage to show a histrotical antecedent to the Likud (and the other even more RW, more extreme elements in their coalition government) posturing.
And how dare you insinuate I am sleazy. You are way out over your skis mate.
Mosby
(16,313 posts)That coalition, despite having a Likud leader, has to do what's best for ALL of Israel and its citizens. The coalition represents all Israelis, including "settlers" and also means recognizing the rights of Palestinians in the OTs regardless what the historical reality is, because the fact is that Jews are indigenous to Israel, Judea, Samaria and the Levant. Their indigenity goes back thousands of years, well before the Arabs conquered the middle east and settled in areas west of the Jordan River.
I think your argument is deeply flawed, I wasn't speaking about you personally, I think I made that pretty clear in my previous post.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)from the early days, here are some examples:
Israeli Heritage Minister: "Blow up & flatten everything [in Gaza] Simply a delight for the eyes.....
We need to talk about the day after.. We give out land plots to all those [soldiers] who have fought against Gaza over the years & to [settlers]"
Source: Israel's Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu's FB page, openly calling for wiping out Gaza & giving it to soldiers & settlers
Link to tweet
related:
Israeli MP Galit Distal Atbaryan Says It Clearly for World to Hear: 'Erase All of Gaza From the Face of the Earth'
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-genocide
Galit Distel Atbaryan, a member of the Israeli Knesset for the ruling Likud Party, is seen holding an Israeli flag.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-genocide
An Israeli lawmaker from the ruling right-wing Likud Party on Wednesday offered fresh evidence that the Israeli government's aim in its bombardment of Gaza is a genocidal effort to kill or forcibly remove the more than 2 million Palestinians living there, declaring, "Gaza should be erased." With the support of the United States and other Western countries, Israel has claimed since October 7when Hamas launched a surprise attack on southern Israel, killing as many as 1,400 people and taking more than 200 hostagethat its bombardment of Gaza is necessary to destroy the armed group, even though the IDF has repeatedly struck civilian targets and killed nearly 9,000 Palestinians so far, including over 3,500 children.
After screening a 45-minute montage of footage taken by Hamas fighters' body cameras during the October 7 attack, Knesset member and former Public Diplomacy Minister Galit Distal Atbaryan posted on Facebook that Israeli officials must invest all their energy "in one thing: erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth.""That the brave monsters will fly to the southern fence and enter Egyptian territory," Atbaryan continued, an apparent reference to Israel's reported plan to permanently expel Palestinians who survive the assault to Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, imposing a "second Nakba" on the population. "Or let them die... Gaza needs to be wiped out." "Revengeful and vicious IDF is required here," she continued. "Anything less than that is immoral."
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
snip
Mosby
(16,313 posts)The president never said "there are no innocent citizens in the Gaza Strip" that's just a lie. Watch the video.
I might go thru the rest of your post later, maybe.
I might also watch the dbacks.
Celerity
(43,383 posts)Here is what he said:
'It is not true, this rhetoric about civilians not were, were not aware, not involved, it's absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup detat.'
'But we are at war, we are at war, we are at war with/at all, we are defending our homes, we are protecting our homes, that's the truth and when a nation protects it's home it fights and we will fight until we break their backbone.'
Earth-shine
(4,024 posts)I don't give a damn how you define "genocide." Something akin to it is happening in Gaza caused by people who say "never again."
Sympthsical
(9,073 posts)Because people know - even if it's only in the back of their minds - that it's very difficult to apply their anti-Western Marxism to a liberal democracy unless they can shoehorn the Israel/Palestine conflict into a context of oppressor and oppressed.
It has to have that framing, or else their ideology collapses. Then they're simply doing the work of a radical fundamentalist religious sect that is extremely illiberal at its core and holds none of the values that these people keep claiming they are for - democracy and equality for women, LGBTers, and ethnic minorities.
When one carries water for Hamas by spreading their propaganda far and wide, it serves anti-Western goals at the risk of unmasking their liberal claims as empty and meaningless. It's very difficult to pull off the performative if people can see you exposed on the stage.
So they can't really say what they really think, because they know they'll lose the audience. Well, most of them do. Some of them don't care and go full anti-Israel, anti-Jew, resistance, "Just like Mandela!" radical on the situation. But the "reasonables" know they have to - at best - be very, very quiet about it all lest the rust and rot of their ideology meet open air.
Because, let's be honest. If people were really "Pro-Palestine" they would have had a lot more to say as Hamas degraded Gaza for the past twenty years and stole the aid that was meant for the people to enact their genocidal goals. They would have condemned the treatment of women and minorities and called out Hamas' abuse of their own citizens. They would have said something - anything at all - at the efforts to propagandize children from birth into sharing these radical, genocidal goals.
They said very close to next to nothing. Because they did not care. And they still do not care. They keep very quiet about stories of abuse, theft of aid, the rapes and the tortures. Because it works against the narrative. They can give a very mealy-mouthed perfunctory "Hamas is bad" if pressed, but they would really rather prefer it if no one said anything at all. Silence in the name of violent oppression is the only way one can gaslight people to think violent religious radicals are the true oppressed.
It's the only way it works. With silence, cooperation, and assistance through propaganda.
Part of this is, Israel needs to be brought down morally. So they have to scratch at it. They know - they fucking know - Israel faces an existential threat by radical Islam. If we're being honest, it's clear a lot of these anti-Westerners aren't exactly against that. It's not a bug - it's the whole fucking feature.
So they pick, pick, pick at it. To get that equivalence going. Stories that are blatantly counter-factual and against Israel that go uncorrected. Picking and choosing from the daily google which things, major and minor, suit an anti-Israel narrative. Then they spread them far and wide.
The genocide rhetoric is the mantle piece, the golden statue, the pillar around which the moral confluence revolves. If they can make Israel the equivalent of genocidal medieval fuckwads, then they can get reasonable people to think, "Maybe we should just bop on out of this and leave them to it." Because they know, if the West retreats, the genocidal religious radicals will get to work in earnest.
Western retreat is the goal. Their language betrays them. Anti-colonialism, apartheid, genocide. They need to frame it this way. The ideology demands it.
Racism, anti-semitism, illiberalism. It gets wrapped up in nobility. It's resistance. We're anti-oppression!
As they work to support some of the most oppressive forces in the modern world. George Orwell truly would be having the best of times right now. People forget. There were a non-zero number of people in the West who thought Stalin and Mao were on the right path and never acknowledged what they were supporting until the reality became too obvious to deny or explain away.
They didn't go anywhere. They're just focused on other things now. Mainly Israel, it seems.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)very well said.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)and an absolutely accurate one.
betsuni
(25,531 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.
Source
Looks like they disagree with you. Israel is committing genocide by at least 2 of those categories.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)the last line pertains, and not genocide. And I stand by my statement. The post above yours says it better.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Bibi has made it clear he wants that group gone. And I'm not talking about Hamas, but Palestine. It's genocide.
hlthe2b
(102,281 posts)I am done arguing the point. People see what they want. Me? I have always seen shades of gray-- and that makes debate very complex (and presumedly annoying for those who want it to be black and white).
But my (and others) ability to see the complexities in these situations is what is needed to try to broker an end to the constant violence and indiscriminate death (and self-defeating policies) in the long term--even where no one finds an absolutist win in that.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)I am not arguing the aspects of Israel's actions. I am saying it does not amount to genocide and the use of that term serves an anti-Jewish purpose.
In fact, there is not "shade of grey" when one uses the term genocide.
hlthe2b
(102,281 posts)and while I have support for Israel, I am NOT going to defend their (Netanyahu's) intentional cruelty. At some point, it, along with past actions towards the Palestinian people-- including enabling Hamas-- is moving far too close in that direction. There are aspects of Netanyahu's policies that must be stopped well before we arrive at that level of repeated, intentional atrocity.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)including food in WW2. We sank every cargo ship we could find to cut them off.
I find it interesting that in the annual atomic bomb debates, one of the alternatives put forth every year is the US could have blockaded Japan and starved them into surrendering...
hlthe2b
(102,281 posts)but we have not tried to wipe out an entire people--nor did we exact retribution after winning both the European and Pacific fronts of WWII. Read the Marshall plan if you don't understand my point.
And I am done arguing this. You know what Netanyahu is doing is wrong and has gone far beyond any targeted conduct of the war against HAMAS into a never-ending atrocity-filled indiscriminate war on civilians--so as to prevent his loss of office in ultimate elections and facing the juridical repercussions of his corruption. Yes, you damned well do.
Defend Netanyahu's acts all you want. It is HE who ignored the warnings of his own female IDF security officers' identification of the HAMAS plan a year before; It is he who did nothing while Israelis were under attack for hours. It is HE who has been approving the Qataris' funding and enabling of HAMAS. I support the Israelis and their ultimate ability to hold elections to rid themselves of this corrupt poseur.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)and consistently supported his removal from office.
Good. Agree.
I actually thought I was responding to the OP, so some of my response might have been more directed to him.
thucythucy
(8,055 posts)and used the starvation of civilians, most especially the elderly, children, and people with disabilities, as a weapon of war.
Indeed, this has been called "The Starvation Blockade" by historians of the period.
Britain, France, Italy and the USA continued the blockade even after the armistice was signed on November 11, 1918. In fact, they strengthened it, impounding the German's Baltic Sea fishing fleet which by that time was the only source of protein for tens of millions of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, and others in Central Europe. This was done to force German negotiators to accept the conditions imposed by the Versailles Treaty.
So, under your definition, did the Allies in WWI commit genocide against the German people?
hlthe2b
(102,281 posts)This not being the first such instance of seemingly intentionally disingenuous reframing of my comments (and those of some other DUers that I have observed recently) you will earn a spot on at least my temporary ignore list. Have a good day but bye.
thucythucy
(8,055 posts)Since the subject of this thread was the use of the term "genocide" and since you seemed to be arguing that Israel was taking an unprecedented action in its blockade, I conflated your argument with those of others making similar points who are indeed charging Israel with genocide.
I do however want to point out again that the deliberate use of starvation is not unprecedented in warfare, sad as that is.
I think once a group of people decide to wage war, the level of violence and atrocity quickly spirals out of control. For this reason those whoi initiate such conflicts bear an awful responsibility.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)In 1945 the U.S. Army Air Forces and the U.S. Navy, hoping to put the final nail in the enemy's coffin, kicked off Operation Starvation, the aerial mining of Japanese waters.
PatSeg
(47,458 posts)History will determine whether what we're witnessing is "genocide" or not and Bibi is looking more and more like he is on the wrong side of history.
Meanwhile, we are here in the comfort of our homes debating if the madness and cruelty in Gaza is "genocide" when tens of thousands of innocent civilians are suffering, many on the brink of starvation. We get so caught up in putting a name to it, we often miss the point. I'm not sure that all those starving, homeless Palestinians are concerned about what we call it.
obamanut2012
(26,077 posts)PatSeg
(47,458 posts)cornball 24
(1,475 posts)hlthe2b
(102,281 posts)Nothing to be advanced by wearing blinders.
jimfields33
(15,807 posts)PatSeg
(47,458 posts)This is Democratic Underground. Being critical of an authoritarian government is more than reasonable among informed, intelligent people.
jimfields33
(15,807 posts)I don't see any protestors who support Hamas pretty much anywhere. But I do see people being accused of supporting Hamas because they oppose the actions of Netanyahu's government in this conflict.
I can support the Israeli hostages and innocent Palestinian civilians and still be vehemently opposed to terrorism and the Hamas attacks on 10/7/23. I can also be opposed to any government who uses acts of terrorism for political gain. We saw a lot of that in our own country after 9/11.
jimfields33
(15,807 posts)PatSeg
(47,458 posts)I don't necessarily see that as pro Hamas though. A bunch of primarily young people who really don't understand that much about what is going on in the Middle East and have a very limited grasp of history. I don't agree with them and I don't think their protests help anyone. It just divides people even more. Some people thrive on that.
When we stop taking sides based on race, nationality, and religion the world will be a better place. Unfortunately, too many put people into categories other than the persecuted and the persecutors, which only fans the flames of hate and distrust. And sadly, some people just need someone to hate. We see so much of that these days.
jimfields33
(15,807 posts)PatSeg
(47,458 posts)Cha
(297,244 posts)Link to tweet
And, Fuck the Evil protesters Attacking Jewish Students and Businesses.
Just one Vicious Example..
Violent mob screaming intifada force Jews to flee through tunnels at UC Berkeley
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/violent-mob-screaming-intifada-force-jews-to-flee-through-tunnels-at-uc-berkeley-da62h2io
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Sure, sure, I am sure this sign does not support Hamas actions at all!
lol
"By any means necessary"
?w=525
obamanut2012
(26,077 posts)Sky Jewels
(7,102 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:51 PM - Edit history (1)
You think if you disingenuously conflate antisemitism with criticism of the cruelty of the government of Israel, that you will silence people who are speaking out about the genocide in Gaza. It's not going to work. Also, you are undermining people who point out actual antisemitism, making it into a "boy who cried wolf" scenario, which is a huge disservice to Jewish people as a whole.
People don't take issue with Israel decimating Gaza because the perpetrators are Jewish. They take issue with it because it is an immoral mass slaughter, starvation and displacement of tens of thousands of innocents. Being Jewish doesn't give someone carte blanche to commit atrocities without criticism. I'd say that view is rather insulting to the Jewish people as a whole, the vast, vast majority of whom do NOT commit brutal, immoral acts like we're seeing perpetrated on Gazan people by Netanyahu's IDF.
jrthin
(4,836 posts)ripcord
(5,404 posts)There is no better way to marginalize Jews.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)I AM saying that Bibi and the government of Israel is. I firmly know and understand that difference. I am sure that others here at DU understand it, too. Do you?
ripcord
(5,404 posts)The blockade of the Japanese home islands and dropping 2 atomic bombs, all of which targeted civilians was genocide?
obamanut2012
(26,077 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Then probably not. But we do know why Israel is doing what they are doing because their leader has told us.
And, for the record, a lot of what we did to citizens of Japanese descent in the US was pretty damn close to, if not, genocide.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)You mean like:
"Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."
Fleet Admiral William Frederick Halsey, Jr.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Are all these wars with high civilian casualties "genocide" also or only when Israel does it?
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)We can look at what Israel is doing and make a decision as to whether it meets the definition of genocide. Comparing it to past events doesn't change what is happening now. And if you think I'm reluctant to say the US has engaged in genocide, you are going to be sadly disappointed in that.
I'm not antisemitic. I'm not holding this against all Jews. The government of Israel is horrible and has been doing horrible things to the Palestinians for years. What they are doing now is ethnic cleansing at the best and genocide as the worst. Stop stanning for them.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)people twist meanings.
dembotoz
(16,806 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)and their support web.
dembotoz
(16,806 posts)israel is talking about stealing their land.....again
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)But you shouldnt make a term meaningless at the same time.
Israel doesnt have to be committing genocide to be doing things that are wrong.
patphil
(6,178 posts)When this current round of warfare is over, watch and see how much land the Israeli's seize in both GaZa, and the West Bank.
PatSeg
(47,458 posts)But sadly I'm afraid you're probably right.
Voltaire2
(13,041 posts)patphil
(6,178 posts)Ethnic cleansing is a process whereby a group of people is driven off their land, or out of their country, because they are either racially, socially, or religiously different, so as to create a more homogeneous population.
Genocide is a process of eradicating a group of people by killing them.
The two concepts are not entirely different; they do overlap. Essentially the difference is to what extent the attacking group is intent on going to bring about their desired result.
Although Israel has engaged in brutality against the Palestinians, I don't believe that eradication is their goal. They just want them off the lands that Israel considers to be historically theirs.
It's ironic that the Palestinian phrase, "from the river to the sea" is seen as a call to cleanse Palestine of Jews, but in practice both sides have that same goal.
Voltaire2
(13,041 posts)I guess the argument is that the pushing of the Gaza population from north gaza to south was in fact an ethnic cleansing, but as the population was then attacked relentlessly in the south, also a genocide. Both typically happen concurrently. See Rwanda.
patphil
(6,178 posts)GreenWave
(6,756 posts)Germany killed more than 56,000,000 Eastern Europeans during WWII from war and intentionally destroying the infrastructure.
Native Americans more than 100,000,000 over a 500 year period.
And the brutalities of slavery might also get a large number as well.
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)I dont understand those who want to criticize the Israeli government but then use anti-semitic tropes (they then think they should be immune from charges of antisemitism).
The constant use of the word genocide when it doesnt actually apply rides along the edges of this, and, depending on who is doing the criticizing jumps right in the middle of the anti-semitic pool.
I also dont understand how anyone, ANYONE can not realize how bad Hamas actually is, and has been way before the current situation.
Its a horrific situation all around
claudette
(3,571 posts)only or mainly Hamas members being killed in a war, it wouldn't be called genocide. But, 30,000 INNOCENT Palestinians are not Hamas.
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)I take it you believe that Israel is targeting innocent Palestinians with the goal of completely eradicating them?
claudette
(3,571 posts)Toddlers dont vote
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)I don't understand why Gaza is a special case in regards to this.
claudette
(3,571 posts)Innocents in a war is a crime. Not collateral damage
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)claudette
(3,571 posts)reported in the news Google is your friend. Hospitals caring for starving children shouldnt be a target
Ace Rothstein
(3,163 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)...or they lose any protection status they have
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)Do you think the Israeli government is deliberately targeting thousands of innocents in an attempt to eradicate the Palestinian people?
claudette
(3,571 posts)what other reason would they have to kill over 30,000 Palestinians and destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and cause famine among innocents? I think Nuttyahoo has an ulterior motive - to obtain more land in Gaza. How many times has he tried to send Palestinian refugees to other places?
Darwins_Retriever
(853 posts)The residents of Gaza know where Hamas is hiding, they protect them. They know what Hamas is doing, they help them. They know that Hamas fires rockets at civilians in Israel. They know that Hamas wants to rid the world of Israel, hell they want that too.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)Bold claim. Have anything to support that? How many of the children that were killed and starved hold those views you are sure they all do.
claudette
(3,571 posts)Innocent children killed and starving
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)Are hamas aliens who evacuated to the mothership after October 7th?
Because that is about the only way that statement can be true.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)So wow, in your mind the IDF hasn't killed ANY Hamas members yet?
That seems wildly unlikely.
claudette
(3,571 posts)what would you call it? "Self-defense??" What a joke. It's a deliberate attempt to kill innocents. There's only one word for that. Calling it genocide does not minimize the Holocaust. We know that happened. Using that word describes what is being done to innocent Palestinian citizens, especially the children.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)and the response by those who freely throw around the term genocide
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218817260
edhopper
(33,580 posts)"only self defense" and genocide.
This is not genocide.
claudette
(3,571 posts)only
edhopper
(33,580 posts)claudette
(3,571 posts)a charge of war crimes in a court. Evidence may prove it
edhopper
(33,580 posts)the opinion of judges.
And I did not say war crimes, I said genocide specifically.
IrishAfricanAmerican
(3,816 posts)Netanyahu and his RW whack jobs sure the fuck do! Kill/relocate/genocide.
Voltaire2
(13,041 posts)Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf
This is the definition according to the UN. It is stunningly clear that what is being done by Israel in the (re-)occupied territory of Gaza qualifies.
ripcord
(5,404 posts)The closest they have been able to narrow down the civilian casualty number is between 80k and 130k in one attack. That is not even getting into the civilian casualties after dropping 2 atomic bombs.
Ping Tung
(560 posts)As usual the deaths of civilians are dismissed as collateral damage and called necessary.
BunkieBandit
(82 posts)For genocide or even war crimes to a lesser degree? Wow, just wow.
Iggo
(47,554 posts)wed call it what it is.
CincyDem
(6,362 posts)Do you think the Uyghurs arent in the same boat. Wheres the daily protests in the street about China. How about Saudi actions in Yemen
any global out cry?
Other countries are doing it but the world seems solely focused on one. Hmmm
why might that be???
Earth-shine
(4,024 posts)We, the USA, are arming Israel. Unfortunately, what Israel does reflects on us.
China and Saudi Arabia are not financially supplemented by us.
CincyDem
(6,362 posts)The initial premise was that we would not accept Israels behavior toward a minority population from any other country. Period.
I said we would and have. Period.
Now youre adding a new element
one that says were obligated to say something about it because we provide military funding to Israel. No opinion on that but it essentially says we do accept this kind of behavior from counties we dont fund.
So, the statement that we wouldnt accept this from ANY other country (my emphasis) is not correct since we dont provide funding (the key to acceptance/ non-acceptance) to everyone.
Earth-shine
(4,024 posts)What can we do about them?
Israel is a different story. We have influence. We are seen by many as Israel's supplier. We will be held guilty by association whether it is appropriate or not.
Right or wrong, Netanyahu's actions could cost Biden the election, and I think it may be one of N's intentions.
I applaud Biden for trying to hold Israel back and get aid to the Gazans.
Peace must be waged as aggressively as war. Cheers.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 28, 2024, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)
posts about Darfur, Pakistan, Myanmar... all drop without comment on the rare occasions they are brought up
Example- https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218816877
Johnny2X2X
(19,066 posts)Civilian casualties are awful, but this is not genocide. Doesn't mean the IDF is without blame, they're being way too careless with their bombing. But it's not even near meeting the definition of genocide.
Genocide- The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
I don't believe this is occurring and if the DF was purposely trying to kill civilians, they're doing a terrible job of it by killing only 1/100th of 1% of the popualation of people who some are claiming are the victims of an ongoing genocide.
I think the IDF is being careless and that's causing thousands of civilian deaths. But that is not genocide and to call it genocide diminishes the meaning of the word.
obamanut2012
(26,077 posts)Saying those genocides cannot be called that is extremely disrespectful to those victims. gatekeeping the term "genocide" is not a good flex.
And, what is happening in Gaza is literal, textbook ethnic cleasnsing, which is quickly becoming a genocide.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)where millions died as comparison.
sarisataka
(18,655 posts)Only Gaza gets worldwide attention or any notice here?
Harmony Starshine
(12 posts)When a word or concept is used inappropriately it robs it of the power of its truth.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)some who use it for this.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)have so many disputed meanings to arrive at the same place with the ambition of actually committing/allowing the genuine article.
Every howler a seed of Hitler.
They want dead Jews by the millions.
Squaredeal
(398 posts)Right now . This is not what America is about.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)brush
(53,778 posts)So what do you say to that? It seems to indicate a desire to rid Gaza of all Palestinians, also from the west bank.
Notice I used the "rid" and not "genicide." It's a less harsh term, doesn't necessarily mean killing, or does it?
Redleg
(5,814 posts)of whether it is genocide or not. Arguing about whether it constitutes genocide ignores the real losses suffered by some of these people in Gaza.
brush
(53,778 posts)which was my point...forget about the side point of semantics.
Redleg
(5,814 posts)I don't know what a person's intentions are for calling it "genocide." Some people might sincerely believe it is. Perhaps others are trying to minimize the Holocaust. I don't know.
What I do know is that there a number of people here at DU who constantly invoke our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as points of comparison. I guess they are trying to say "if those two instances weren't genocide, how can this thing in Gaza be?"
Our nation's actions in previous wars do not justify any and all actions that another state may take in executing war. While it isn't clear to me that that Israel's military actions constitute the technical definition of genocide, I do have concerns for the seemingly high numbers of killed and wounded non-combatants and the ongoing shortage of water, food, medicine and other supplies. I don't believe that this makes me a Holocaust denier or pro-Hamas, or even anti-Israel.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)I am saying the use of this term is wrong and unnecessary.
I said nothing about war crimes or over blown response. In fact. I have another thread calling for an end to aid for Israel.
Duncan Grant
(8,264 posts)1. The use of the word genocide to explain what Israels done to Gaza is an effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israels right to exist.
2. If you disagree with the above, you are aiding the effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israels right to exist.
3. Efforts to compare and contrast Gaza with historical atrocities produces no significant similarities to genocide. No context can be provided to events in Gaza. None.
4. The use of the word genocide to explain what Israels done to Gaza is an effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israels right to exist.
5. If you disagree with the above, you are aiding the effort to minimize the Holocaust and negate Israels right to exist.
betsuni
(25,531 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,957 posts)H2O Man
(73,543 posts)Sadly, there have been several genocides in human history. No one group owns the word.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Lots of dead civilians is most wars.
The US killing almost 3 million Japanese was not genocide because as soon as they surrendered we stopped, if we were intent on genocide the bombing would have continued.
The Jews could have surrendered all they wanted to Hitler, he was still going to put them in boxcars to the death camps, THAT is genocide.
If Hamas surrendered the IDF would stop their assault on Gaza, therefore war, not genocide.
If just dead civilians equaled "genocide" then I guess all these recent wars were too?
David__77
(23,418 posts)For instance:
Prime Minister of Israel: On 7 October 2023, in a televised address by the Government Press Office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to operate forcefully everywhere.439 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that [w]e are striking our enemies with unprecedented might . . ..440 On 15 October 2023, when Israeli airstrikes had already killed over 2,670 Palestinians, including 724 children,441 the Prime Minister stated that Israeli soldiers understand the scope of the mission and stand ready to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters who 435 UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #44 (19 November 2023), https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-44; UN OCHA, Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #48 (23 November 2023), https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flashupdate-48. 436 Abandoned babies found decomposing in Gaza hospital weeks after it was evacuated, NBC News (2 December 2023), https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533. 437 WHO, Women and newborns bearing the brunt of the conflict in Gaza, UN agencies warn (3 November 2023), https://www.who.int/news/item/03-11-2023-women-and-newborns-bearing-the-brunt-of-the-conflict-in-gaza-un-agencieswarn. 438 UN Press Release, Women bearing the brunt of Israel-Gaza conflict: UN expert (20 November 2023), https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/women-bearing-brunt-israel-gaza-conflict-un-expert (emphasis added). 439 Prime Minister of Israel, @IsraeliPM, Tweet (10:31 pm, October 7, 2023),
Link to tweet
. 440 Address by the Prime Minister of Israel, (13 October 2023), . Translation in Only the beginning says Netanyahu as Israel makes first raids into Gaza, Reuters (13 October 2023), https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/now-is-time-war-says-israels-military-chief-2023-10-12/. 441 UNICEF, Immediate Needs Document in the State of Palestine (October December 2023) (17 October 2023), https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/immediate-needs-document-state-palestine-october-december2023. (Total as of 17:45, 15 October 2023; children as of 12:00, 14 October 2023). 60 have risen against [Israel] to destroy us.442 On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform X (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: [t]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his Christmas message, stating: were facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, its a battle of civilization against barbarism.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.448
Much more, of course, at link.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)lapucelle
(18,265 posts)including twice within the quoted statute and once in a footnote.
South Africa may have referred to "intent" seventeen times, but given the ICJ's initial orders and its denial of SA's demands, South Africa clearly did not come close to establishing it.
lapucelle
(18,265 posts)The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.
The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law.
Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:
A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
- Killing members of the group
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.
Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and substantial.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
MythosMaster
(445 posts)sorry moving on to another post.
Jirel
(2,018 posts)The holocaust was a real thing, and horrific, and genocide The Nazis who committed it would have said exactly the same thing (and some did) that Jews (and LGBT, and other targeted groups) were wartime casualties. Being victims of a genocide does NOT, however, give license for an oppressed group to then commit genocide themselves.
Wholesale wiping out of entire city areas where another identity group lives, and killing all within them indiscriminately, is genocide. Cutting all that group off from food, water, and medical care, regardless of age, politics, or involvement in the conflict, is genocide. Literally watching babies die of starvation and lack of medical care, and killing the sick, by refusing safe passage to places they can be fed, housed, and cared for, is genocide.
Denying Israels genocide of the Gazans is as morally repugnant as denying the holocaust. Rather than arguing that its not that bad, Jews and other supporters of Israel should be standing against ALL genocide, and holding the Israeli government accountable.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)The audacity to start a war with rapes, mutilation, murder, and hostage taking and then cry about being settled up is sky high.
The stupidity of calling a rounding error that includes the militants genocide is so staggering that it cannot be real.
TheCynic56
(38 posts)A lot of what about this and what about that, happening in this thread.
No group owns the term genocide! What is happening in Gaza is barbaric!
SocialDemocrat61
(606 posts)do so to shut down the conversation.
Cha
(297,244 posts)brettdale
(12,381 posts)With the OP.
Martin Eden
(12,869 posts)1. Their long term objective is a Greater Israel encompassing all the land.
2. To sustain the viability of the Jewish State, the Palestinian demographic has to be reduced to the point of never coming close to a majority of the population. They need to crush all hope of a Palestinian state supplanting Israel and the terrorist organizations intent on achieving that goal.
3. In the current war, disregard for civilian casualties is obvious. The death toll since Oct 7 is approaching a 300-to-1 ratio Palestinians to Jews, and famine is taking hold.
I'm merely trying to state what I believe to be the strategy of the Israeli government. Palestinians are in the way of achieving the long term security of Greater Israel.
Is it genocide? That term does more to inflame passions and incite divisions than bring people together to collaborate on a viable solution to end the caranage and suffering. Two different peoples, apparently incompatable, want the same land. One side has much greater wealth and military capability, backed by the most powerful nation on the planet. The other side, with some outside support, has resorted to terrorism. Hamas is intent on killing or driving out all Jews "from the river to the sea." They don't have the power to commit "genocide" but it looks like they would if they could.
Painting one side or the other (encompassing all the people, most of whom just want to live and raise families) as EVIL, provides the dehumanizing framework for mass slaughter.
As an agnostic and a human being it seems to me the three Abrahamic religions which worship the monotheic God should make of this land with the holy city of Jerusalem an international center of peace and brotherhood.
Can we get any farther from that ideal?
We shall see.
Bucky
(54,013 posts)But when one's "defense" of Israel's policy in Gaza is that it's merely ethnic cleansing, then they've pretty much run out of moral high ground to stand on.
They're just killing people they don't like. They've reduced October 7th to an excuse.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)I do defend Israel's right to exist. And as a son of a family that survived the Holocaust, I am offended by the use of the term in this and see it a I described.