Jewish Actress Miriam Margolyes Speaks About Israel And Gaza

[CitizenZero]

[Basic LA]

1. Beautiful human statement.

I grew up seeing Jewish people as so warm-hearted & funny, as was my late wife. This all seems so out of character as to be unbelievable.

[Sympthsical]

2. This is racist af

It's supposed to be subtle.

[Basic LA]

3. What the lady said is racist?

What do you mean? Like killing Palestinian women and children because you see "all of those people" as terrorists. That kind of racism?

[Mossfern]

5. She said that Israelis were *going after* women and children

That is an outright lie.
But some here would choose to believe it.

[Basic LA]

10. Thanks for clarifying

Didn't get your objection at first.

Again, it's opposite outlooks clashing. If we could just understand each other.
Hard for us to understand occupation, apartheid, & ethnic cleansing.
And for a people who are no strangers to existential threats, maybe it's hard to react any differently. I don't know.

[Model35mech]

19. True, the IDF seems to go after anyone between them and who IDF think are Hamas

That just happens to kill a lot of women and children

[Mossfern]

20. Again...

if Hamas combatants would identify themselves and not fire from homes, schools, hospitals and mosques - Gazan civilians would be better able to get to safety.

What kind of "soldier" hides among a vulnerable population.
They are cowards.

[Model35mech]

34. That is a sad rationalization of collateral killings. I'm sorry for you

I'm sorry that terrible rationalization works for you.

Not too long down the road, more communications will leak out from the IDF, and they are likely to bear witness harsh witness for history.

I think that, because what is already eeking out suggests that IDF commanders inside Gaza ignored superior commanders meaning that the IDF central command lost control of its forces. And those forces gave nearly no consideration to collateral killings.

[Mossfern]

37. That is not a rationalization

I don't think that civilian deaths are inevitable. I've read that the ratio of killed civilians is very low in comparison to other wars of this type. I'll try to find documentation and post it tomorrow.

Those casualties are on Hamas. (as I have explained previously)

Hopefully any IDF soldiers that disobey or ignore orders from their superiors will pay the consequences. If the orders from superiors are to target civilians, there will be documentation "eeked" out.

Nu?

[atreides1]

55. Well

Here's an article about soldiers hiding among a vulnerable population.

https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20231116-hamas-isnt-the-first-military-group-to-hide-behind-civilians.cfm

[Mossfern]

56. From that article

Despite what some protesters are saying, I can say that the Israeli military does care about civilian casualties. Israel still is a democracy. And they respect, even if not to the exact standards that many people would like to see, the laws of war – certainly more than Hamas does. For example, Israel limits how it targets military strikes.

And even with that, the information blowback against Israel is real. I fought for 20 years. It’s hard to get images of infants killed and hurt in this war out of your head. Social media accelerates the circulation of images that pull on our emotions and make it difficult to have objective conversations about the conflict.The Conversation

Benjamin Jensen, Professor of Strategic Studies, Marine Corps University; Scholar-in-Residence, American University School of International Service

This article is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license. Read the original article.

[iemanja]

43. Your statement is ridiculous

The Israeli military kills large swaths of people, knowing full well that their bombs are killing women and children. The IDF knows that only a fraction of those they kill are terrorists, but they continue to drop bombs all the same. Women and children are dying en masse. That is the RESULT of their actions, and results are ALL that matter. You can play all the semantic games you want; it doesn't change reality. That you justify those deaths is something that your conscience has to bear.

[Sympthsical]

9. Minorities are not there to act in or out of character for their group

[Basic LA]

11. True.

It's only our own expectations that can disappoint us.
Admirable, though, that a people could accrue such lofty expectations. Hard to live up to, I guess. And in the long run unfair in its own way. I'm sure it's why there's so much confusion over this. Even antisemitism's opposite is fraught.

[Sympthsical]

12. This is paternalistic

I do find these sorts of blind spots interesting to observe, tho.

[Basic LA]

15. Can see the paternalism, maybe.

But what blind spot exactly? Many here are pushing back against what we see as Israel's overreaction. Not arguing now, just wanting to understand. What is our blind spot?

[Mossfern]

4. Warm hearted and funny

Like those Jewish women who were raped tortured and killed?
Her statement is pure propaganda.

I'd love to see Gazans speak out about that.
Then, I'll listen.

[Basic LA]

6. Ah, OK.

Now I get the objection. Might not agree, but at least you made it clear.

[JohnSJ]

8. Of course, and no surprise coming from AlJezzera, which Qatar funds, along with 5 start hotels for the Hamas leadership

Al Jezzera also claimed that the abuses from Hamas on the civilians on Oct. 7th were exaggerations

[Basic LA]

13. But you'll allow that it's not ALL Gazans

They didn't ALL do it. But they're all being treated as if they did. That's the rub for disinterested observers.
Your rage is righteous. But hey. There's a limit.

[EX500rider]

14. You mean like in any war where the civilians suffer when their govt starts a war?

Even stupider when you start a war you have zero chance of winning

But you'll allow that it's not ALL Gazans
And it wasn't ALL Japanese, Germans, etc

[Basic LA]

16. Exactly! What turns us against a whole population?

And how do civilized people carry that behavior well into the 21st Century, ready as ever to justify mass murder? We're all guilty of it.
Expectations again, and thinking that a people who suffered the most from this, would surely not advance the practice.

[IronLionZion]

17. Humanity has progressed a bit since World War 2

we try to avoid leveling whole cities these days.

[EX500rider]

67. "we try to avoid leveling whole cities these days." We do?

Aleppo:


Mosul:


Mariupol:


Fallujah:
?itok=R2FFLI04

Grozny:

[IronLionZion]

68. We spend tons of money on guided missiles, smart bombs, drones, satellites, etc.

to avoid carpet bombing whole cities like back in the day

[EX500rider]

69. And Israel hasn't done any carpet bombing

Here's what the result of carpet bombing looks like:

[Mossfern]

18. I don't agree

They wouldn't "all" be treated that way if Hamas combatants wore uniforms and didn't fight from the Gazans' homes, their schools, their hospitals or their Mosques.

This is on Hamas.

[Basic LA]

21. That's how you feel.

Can't argue with that. Still, though, kids? Mothers? How pissed off are you?

[Mossfern]

23. I am pissed off

that Hamas is hiding behind women and children.
Fucking cowards.

That pisses me off.
Some here have fallen hard for Hamas' propaganda, putting their critical thinking
skills on hold for a bit.

[IronLionZion]

50. That doesn't justify killing different people who had nothing to do with it

[Mossfern]

51. That is war

War is horrible, terrible, heart-wrenching, brutal.
Hamas started the war. Israel needs to defend herself to prevent more such attacks in the future.
How do you suggest Israel defend herself - especially when the UN did not denounce at all the brutal massacres and atrocities visited on peaceful people on 10/7?

I have an open mind - your thoughts?

[IronLionZion]

61. Let unarmed civilians cross into Israeli territory

It's not war when it's bombing a densely populated walled in area where civilians can't leave. They don't deserve what's happening to them.

Destroying their homes, schools, hospitals, and telling them to go to Egypt or other Arab countries is a way to get rid of them forever so they can never return.

[Mossfern]

63. OK, lets flesh out this scenario...

Israel lets unarmed civilians in.
How do they know for sure that they are civilians?

Where would they be kept? If in camps, the Hamas propaganda will say that Israel has imprisoned innocent Gazans. Just because they enter Israel unarmed doesn't mean that the won't be able to procure arms once they are in Israel.

Remember it was Gazan "civilians" working in Israel that supplies maps to Hamas to facilitate the raid on 10/7.

If Hamas cares about Gazans, they would surrender unconditionally.
The were the instigators of the war, they are the ones who broke the cease fire.

[IronLionZion]

65. If the goal is to end Hamas, then no one cares what Hamas propaganda says

They could also go to the West Bank. Settlers can leave their illegal settlements to make room.

It's pointless to claim Hamas is embedded with civilians when neither can go anywhere and both are stuck there. It's well established that Hamas are suicidal and doesn't care about Gazans. I'm not sure Netanyahu cares about Israeli lives that much. He wants to stay out of prison and take Palestinian land. Israel could make a case to extradite Hamas leaders from other countries and put them on trial. Or send them to the Hague for international trial.

Most options are better than mass murder.

[Mossfern]

66. Apparently activists in the US and Europe care what Hamas says

Will these innocent Gazans become citizens of Israel, or will they return to Gaza after the war?
Although I personally am against Jewish settlements in the West Bank, is that area Palestinian, or are they disputed territories. Israel has authority of area C which is 60% of the West Bank - is that where you are proposing the Gazan (refugees again) to be relocated? Or are you considering the other 40%?

They will still have to be heavily guarded as Hamas disguises themselves as innocent civilians. That would be great fodder for the ire of Islamic supremacists in the area - Hamas isn't the only Islamic terrorist organization.

You can balk at that fact all you want, but that doesn't make it not a fact.

A two state solution would be more workable as long as each states acknowledges the right of the other to exist. I have yet to hear the consensus of Palestinians that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

[TeamProg]

7. Please consider posting this at the Jewish Group here at DU. nt

[Sympthsical]

24. Jesus

[TeamProg]

25. would approve of this message.

[Sympthsical]

31. I imagine this situation must feel very liberating

[TeamProg]

38. Um, huh?

Yah, I think more people feel the same as me.

History will not be kind

[Celerity]

32. ...

[Sympthsical]

33. You have to admit, though

"I found a Jew who agrees with me. Go throw them at the other Jews," is . . . kind of a choice.

[TeamProg]

39. So, you're all about eliminating choice ? Just asking for a friend.

[Sympthsical]

48. Imagine if someone approvingly posted a Log Cabin Republican

And then someone replied, "Hey, this is great! Put it in the LGBT group!"

As a gay man, I would be side-eyeing that person, their motives, and their psychology so hard, onlookers would mistake me for an ancient Egyptian wall painting.

[madaboutharry]

22. Miriam Margoyles' has a long history of hating Israel.

This excerpt is from a 2015 article from the Australian Israel Jewish Affairs Council:

Margolyes’ statement, however, also implied that antisemitism today can be attributed to the establishment and ongoing existence of the State of Israel.

Her comments are not only factually wrong, but deeply offensive. If any other target of racism had been blamed for the actions of racists by a Q&A panellist, it would be expected that the hosts and other panellists have no hesitation in responding promptly and forcefully.

Margolyes has made it clear previously that she does not believe Israel should exist and is not really in favour of a “two state solution” for Israelis and Palestinians. She has refused to look fairly at the difficult situation Israel faces in dealing with rejectionist terror groups like Hamas, but even less defensible than her simplistic comments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is her insistence on linking the rise of violent antisemitism to Israel and to Jewish support of Israel.

https://aijac.org.au/update/miriam-margolyes-and-antisemitism/

Margolyes has made a second career of condemning Israel, a country she doesn’t think has a right to exist. David Baddiel wrote about her and her animosity towards Israel in his book Jews Don’t Count.

One last thing, because the person who is condemning Israel is also a Jew does not mean it belongs in The Jewish Group.

[TeamProg]

26. Well, until you print what she said, this is just hearsay, right?

[madaboutharry]

29. I provided a link.

You can read it yourself.

[TeamProg]

40. But you didn't quote her. I figure there's a reason for that.

[Cha]

35. REC.. Mahalo.. Israel Offered a Ceaefire and Hamas Rejected.

[TeamProg]

41. Why bother? Their cities are crumbled, the infrastructure to build a culture with schools and hospitals has been

destroyed.

There was a deal in place and then the ‘promised land ‘ settlers invaded designated Palestinian lands, am I wrong?

[iemanja]

45. For some, nothing exists before Oct 7, 2023

They either don't want to consider any events before then or are unaware of the historical context. In all fairness, it's a complicated history and a complicated situation, but recognizing that one doesn't know everything would be a good starting point. I sure as hell don't, but my understanding is that it dates back to the Balfour declaration.

[TeamProg]

46. The 1948 Partition existed. The invading "settlers" also existed.

I wasn’t there but the historical facts were.

[iemanja]

47. Yes, I was editing my post

just as you were writing that. Its roots are even longer: https://www.britannica.com/event/Balfour-Declaration

[iemanja]

44. Netanyahu likewise rejected a ceasefire

If only people could recognize that both Jews and Muslims are equally worthy of life, we might get somewhere.

[JI7]

27. silk and diamond

[Mosby]

28. Roger Waters is a fan

Link to tweet

[madaboutharry]

30. According to former band mate David Gilmore,

Waters hates Jews. He patronizes the ones who spew hate for Israel. No one should doubt he hates them too.

https://variety.com/2023/music/news/roger-waters-antisemitic-says-polly-samson-david-gilmour-agrees-pink-floyd-ukraine-1235515432/

[Cha]

36. Keep "Jews" out of your mouth, Waters.. you've always been

an Anti-Semite.

Roger Waters Is ‘Antisemitic to Rotten Core,’ Says Former Pink Floyd Lyricist Polly Samson — and Her Husband, David Gilmour, Emphatically Agrees

https://variety.com/2023/music/news/roger-waters-antisemitic-says-polly-samson-david-gilmour-agrees-pink-floyd-ukraine-1235515432/

[TeamProg]

42. He's an idiot. You might as well cite some off the wall right wing extremist.

No bonus points there.

[LexVegas]

49. Al Jazeera is the propaganda arm of Hamas. nt

[Mosby]

62. The video was originally posted in the Guardian

Thought I would share that with the group.

Apparently they and others think it's perfectly fine to make baseless accusations towards Jews.

[betsuni]

52. Oh, now suddenly "She's just an actress, who cares" has disappeared.

[Goddessartist]

53. Thank you, CitizenZero, for posting this.

I love her, and agree with her 100%. For those who are bashing her, aren't you tired of defending genocide? I mean, how long can you defend Israel's actions? It must take a toll on your soul.

[Mossfern]

54. NOBODY here

is defending genocide!
It is Hamas that has genocide in their charter.
Sheesh!

Please prove ONE post of someone here on DU who is promoting genocide.
Name calling is the tool of ignorance.

[malaise]

57. She nailed it

Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.

Rec

[Goddessartist]

59. Yep. N/T

[Mosby]

64. Thats the Christian version as said by Jesus.

The original, Jewish version, comes from a story about Rabbi Hillel.

The Talmud tells the story of a gentile who came to Shammai requesting a quickie McConversion to Judaism. He asked to be taught the entire Torah while standing on one foot. Shammai had no patience for the ridiculous and disrespectful request and chased him out of the study hall.

Undaunted, the fellow then proceeded to visit Shammai's colleague, Hillel with the same request. Hillel instructed him, "Whatever is hateful and distasteful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary. Go learn."

Apparently Miriam Margolyes isn't familiar with the Jewish Golden Rule, just the Christian version.

[David__77]

58. Sounds like an interesting and intelligent woman.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Margolyes

[malaise]

60. She is

That is all

[CitizenZero]

70. October 7, 2023

What Hamas did on October 7, 2023 was heinous, evil, and unforgivable. Unfortunately, the response by Netanyahu and the IDF is not justified. They have killed thousands and thousands of innocent people, women and children. One heinous act does not justify another heinous act. Two wrongs do not make a right. There have been terrible actions on both sides. Israel has the right to defend itself, but not to kill innocent civilians en masse. The Israelis that support this killing have lost the moral high ground. They are not justified. The IDF needed to find a way to target the Hamas perpetrators without the mass killing of thousands of innocent civilians. There are many Israelis and Jews that do not support this slaughter. Mass murder is never justified, on either side. So I condemn the October 7th killings, but also the mass killings of innocent Gazan civilians. Cease fire now, and the return of all hostages.

[QuickPop]

71. She's right.