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cab67

(3,440 posts)
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 01:55 PM Jun 2024

about those two UT professors

These are the ones who've filed a lawsuit complaining that they're not allowed to give failing grades to students who get abortions or are part of the LGBTQ community.

A lot of people here are calling on UT to fire them. That's not going to happen based on what we currently know. There may be (and, in my opinion) should be consequences, but termination won't be one of them.

I'm a UT alum - PhD 1997. While I was there, the Texas state legislature set up an outcry about the "broken" tenure system, and how the state's public universities had to "fix" it. The result was fairly benign - post-tenure review systems were beefed up, allowing administrators to do something if a professor was genuinely not doing their job, but tenure itself remained intact (as it should have been). But I clearly remember an incident that happened right after all of this.

Legislators kept repeating the same mantra - "We're not doing this to punish instructors who push the 'wrong' ideas! Freedom of Speech!" None of us actually believed them, but that's what they kept saying. It was, they said, about making sure instructors were doing their jobs.

As soon as the dust started to settle, a controversy arose at UT-Austin. A law professor expressed admiration for a book entitled The Bell Curve, which argued that Black people had lower IQs for genetic reasons, and that lower average academic performance in the African American community was unrelated to poverty. It was complete hogwash and was heavily refuted almost as soon as it came out in print, but a few right-wing "intellectuals" took it seriously, as this particular law professor evidently did.

Right away, some of the legislators who claimed tenure reform had nothing to do with ideology threatened to go through UT-Austin's budget with a pair of tweezers unless something was done to fire this professor.

These threats came from both the left and the right, though I assume a lot of those on the right had more to do with not alienating Black voters than actual concern that a racist was teaching law at their flagship campus. But whatever the reason, it flew in the face of what they'd just spent months insisting they weren't going to do.

I don't remember exactly what happened to this particular law professor, but he wasn't fired.

The issue is this - tenure is supposed to protect freedom of inquiry. That goes for those of us working on topics the right wing dislikes. In my case, that's climate change and evolution. But it also protects speech rational people find abhorrent. This will be taken into consideration by any administrator who might get involved. Administrators know they'd face the south side of a lawsuit alleging violations of the professors' First Amendment rights and probably breach of contract, and this would be a costly affair they'd most likely lose.

Moreover, given the threats public universities face - and this is acutely true in fascist Texas - no university president or Board of Regents would allow a professor to be fired for expressing right-wing views. It's not a matter of right and wrong at that point - it's a matter of Realpolitik. They have to balance maintaining a campus that welcomes and nurtures everyone with not having a bunch of ignorant blowhards do real violence to their ability to do so.

Believe me - I am NOT, in any way, supporting what these professors have said or are doing. I, for one, would do what I could to marginalize them on campus. If I was a member of a governance body (e.g. Faculty Senate), I'd either propose or support a motion to censure them. If I was in the same department, I'd advise students to avoid their classes. If I was a member of the development committee, I'd make sure donors were aware that they're extreme outliers who don't represent rational human thought, much less the views of the department or institution.


All that said - although the two professors on this lawsuit are probably safe from dismissal given what we currently know, I've been in Academia long enough to know they won't go unpunished. At the very least, their department chairs and/or deans will try to limit their contact with female and LGBTQ students

They might also decide to look closely at their end-of-term teaching evaluations and the grades they've assigned in past semesters. Finding evidence of bias against certain student groups would be cause for further sanction that could, potentially, include termination - though that would usually only happen if a professor was warned once and didn't change course.

Moreover, one of them got his PhD in 1980, meaning must be close to retirement. That would, at least, minimize the damage he can cause in the classroom.

Again - I'm not speaking in defense of these two piles of cicada shit that walk as men do. Just explaining why firing them is very, very unlikely to happen.

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Traildogbob

(11,574 posts)
1. About as likely
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:07 PM
Jun 2024

As firing Ted Cruz and Abbott in Texas. A sad state, and NC is trying hard to catch up. If the idiot gets APPOINTED Gov here, we will be as big a shit hole state. And the fool running for Ed Secretary here, that hates public education. And Extreme Gerry meandering may well APPOINT both plus many more trump cult tribe.
I really am losing all hope of ending this shit show in America. We waited too long to try to go after this festering take over that has been at it for decades.

walkingman

(9,623 posts)
2. Thank you - it is always good to hear from someone with inside knowledge
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:14 PM
Jun 2024

about these issues. I have to admit I was shocked to hear this was happening from two UT-Austin professors. There are several schools in Texas that wouldn't have surprised me but Austin?? Just doesn't fit the mental picture I had for the University.

I did go to grad school in Texas (University of Houston) a long time ago and Texas politics has taken a 180° turn since those days, but still I find it shocking that a Professor would get involved in such a controversial topic. But these days nothing seems out-of-bounds. No sure what has happened to Texas in the last 40 years, but it is not the same place I remember in my youth.

unblock

(55,446 posts)
3. i believe in the tenure system, on balance; but it is subject to abuse. once upon a time, football coach woody hayes
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:16 PM
Jun 2024

punched a clemson football player after he made a decisive interception which carried him into the ohio state university side of the field.

woody hayes was pissed in the first place playing the gator bowl as they didn't make the more prestigious rose bowl that year, and that play spelled the end of a disappointing year. but of course, nothing justifies violence, certainly not in a game and certainly not from a coach to a player on the other team just because you're not happy with what happened.

anyway, there had been stories for ages about hayes hitting his own football player, and honestly, i've heard this about quite a lot of football coaches. they just have the sense to keep that crap in the locker room and not on national television.

they promptly fired him from his coaching job, ending his football career, but they couldn't fire him as a tenured professor of military history.

i don't know if he was any good as a teacher in the academic sense; but i did hear many, stories that all the football players took his courses and he always gave them whatever grade they needed to stay on the team.

MagickMuffin

(17,835 posts)
4. I don't see this as a Free Speech issue
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:19 PM
Jun 2024


These lowlife professors are wanting to punish students for seeking medical care. It has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with failing students who don’t believe as they do.


Why would any woman or transgender students take a class from these lowlife professors?

Why does their ideology matter in this case when teaching their course?

Do other students receive a different outcome if they miss classes?

Who do these lowlife professors think they are?

And I certainly hope the lowlife professors get push back from the university and the students.

Less and less high school students will consider going to college in Texas. Too much oppression.


wnylib

(25,316 posts)
14. Exactly! This is not a free speech issue. It is a human rights issue
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 05:44 PM
Jun 2024

for the students and the abuse of their rights by professors. Tenure does not, for example, give a professor the right to demand sex in order to get a good grade. The professors are imposing irrelevant, non-academic standards on students' grades.

cab67

(3,440 posts)
15. The issue is this, though -
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 06:18 PM
Jun 2024

so far, there isn't evidence (that I've seen) that these numbnuts have actually treated women or LGBTQ students unfairly when it comes to grading or other forms of assessment. And unless such evidence is found, most academic governing bodies will see this as a first-amendment issue.

A case can be made that, by filing this suit, these professors are creating a hostile environment for some students in their courses. That's a lot more likely to result in having their courses cancelled and their teaching duties replaced with other administrative work - not dismissal.

Not saying this is how it should be. Only how it's going to be at the moment.

FakeNoose

(38,036 posts)
5. Maybe tenure should be awarded along with a mandatory retirement age?
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:19 PM
Jun 2024

It seems that tenure squeezes out the younger generation when the elders never leave.
Campus politics only plays into that larger issue.

wryter2000

(47,922 posts)
6. While I agree with you in general
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:28 PM
Jun 2024

These two are asking for permission to do things to harm students. Admiring that stupid book, in itself, doesn't. I guess expressing one's admiration would make class an unwelcoming place for black students.

That race/IQ garbage has been with us for centuries, literally. It's utterly without any scientific evidence, but it plays into some folks' previously existing prejudices. Every couple of decades it comes around in a new form, and lots of intellectuals fall for it. I fought a semester-long battle with one of them when I was in graduate school. I also had a professor who understood statistically why it was garbage. Between the statistician and the library, I learned a great deal on the subject. I can now explain to other people why that stuff is garbage. It was one of the great boons I got out of graduate school.

Probatim

(3,158 posts)
7. Is it possible these professors filed this suit to test the legislation?
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:30 PM
Jun 2024

Part of me wants to think a professor of philosophy isn't this fucking dumb or mean - he just wants to take a whack at this horrible legislation.

The other part of me knows this is Texas (where I was born and still have some family) and it's quite possible he's just this fucking dumb and mean.

struggle4progress

(123,893 posts)
8. Students course grades should reflect academic performance. Most schools have standards of conduct, and sanctioning
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 02:34 PM
Jun 2024

students on the basis of those standards is a separate matter, but in such matters students have due process rights which schools have some duty to respect. It's not clear to me why teachers should condition class grades on student lives off campus; the exceptional cases, where the off campus life really becomes an academic concern, should be addressed through school standards of conduct and not by individual teachers

cab67

(3,440 posts)
9. They absolutely should not have that ability.
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 03:02 PM
Jun 2024

I don’t expect this will get very far in the courts. The judge in Amarillo appears to be an idiot, but at some point, they’re going to cross paths with appellate judges who aren’t.

I would also expect them to be stripped of teaching duties if they make it beyond that first judge, if not before.

Response to cab67 (Original post)

barbtries

(30,614 posts)
11. thank you.
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 05:00 PM
Jun 2024

sexist republicans waste so much time (and money) on this kind of bullshit. WTF does a student's PRIVATE life have to do with how she performed in a course? What do these people teach? In what universe does this ridiculous lawsuit make any kind of sense?

"you have failed in English because you are gay." "You cannot pass biology because you had an abortion." WTAF

i hate republicans.

Mersky

(5,340 posts)
13. Bonevac must be a terrible "philosopher"
Mon Jun 3, 2024, 05:25 PM
Jun 2024

I suspect he calls himself one, lol. That department has had big egos over the years, so here’s one more.

Imagine being so shallow you can’t hear a person’s core argument, because your overriding need to bully them rings louder? His class load should be dropped for that alone. Also, his name, Bonevac, sounds like a machine for checking prostate enlargement (and he’s probably just as delightful). Hatfield’s social engineering of markets seems most dismal, and he’s likely a real creep. Both seem creepy.

Will they be fired? Nah. This all smacks of Greg Abbott, et al kissing tRump’s butt by proxy. A fascist circle of jerks doing what they do.

Don’t take their classes, instead shun them. They can teach to ne’er-do-well incels where they can all steep in their preferred white male mediocrity until the fever breaks.

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