General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn many of the rape threads I an noticing a definite empathy deficit...
...by the posters who get angry thinking that they are being told that "all men are rapists".
As someone who is on the Autism spectrum it is a problem I have deal with every day. I am always having remind myself that just because I know I am not X does not mean OTHER people know that.
It is the same thing with women's reactions towards men in public. Men get offended and accuse women of "assuming they are rapists" when they are not, well those women the men are so offended by don't know that!
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Little Star
(17,055 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)There's some incredibly dishonest and manipulative crap going on, and it;s coming from people who think their hurt feelings should be everyone's focus to the exclusion of the subject at hand. They don't care about the 29.3% of kids under 11 getting raped. They'd like no one to actually say that there's a problem here. It's bullshit.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)I mean for being told that expressions of attraction is tantamount to rape?
THAT'S what disturbs most of the people that I've seen upset about this umbrella of sexual attraction being lumped in with the urge to rape..
I worked with homeless kids for years and almost to a person they had been beaten and emotionally tortured in every manner of horror while being raped.
Hitting on someone in a bar on Friday night doesn't mean a man is a rapist. The stuff I just listed, IMNSHO does.
MineralMan
(146,331 posts)I've not seen any such statements. Link?
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)There are plenty of examples out there.
MineralMan
(146,331 posts)Don't and it didn't happen.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)as far as internet friends can be just that,
But I won't revisit the screeds I've seen here lately.
Maybe someone else can help you out.
Until then,
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)but please do define "expressions of attraction" and "hitting on."
I am curious as to your personal definitions
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)out your intent and conclusion.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)but there have been more than a few guys assuming things about me here, so why am I not surprised?
I think these discussions are important. I trust you feel the same way.
It's time to begin some real conversations about expectations, language and the way we all perceive our human sexuality and the expression of same,
I have nothing against you, really don't know you one way or the other, I was just curious as to what you meant by your phrases. I can understand that these are touchy subjects, and that no one really wants to open up any more worm-filled cans here, but I promise I was not going to attack you in any way.
I was hoping for conversation. For some back and forth. At the worst, I might have wanted to point out where a come on line might seem benign to a male, but could be perceived as a threat from a female individual's point of view. That's it. Nothing scary. Nothing emasculating. No secret agenda. Just a desire to continue the conversation.
Please do not assume things about someone you don't know, and I won't assume anything about you. And I really don;t deserve your hostility, but I sure have gotten used to it lately from a few others, so I will just take that as part of your particular "culture."
Cheers.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)I've ever seen here. Really. Have someone read the entire screed aloud to you and see where the passive meets the aggressive.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)And we're still waiting for those links.
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)is that you're asked to provide a link, and you refuse to do so.
Which, as has been pointed out, means you've got nothing.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)because I consistently ask for links to prove many of the following accusations:
"DUers 'shit on' the efforts of liberals in The South."
I asked for links, everyone told me: 'Just look and you'll see!'. But no one brought any examples.
"DU has a 'rape culture!"
Yep, asked for something to back that up too.... nothing.
I can't even begin to detail all of the crazy accusations people just toss around with nothing to back them up. Glad you can see that the accusations are meaningless.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)That she often crosses to the other side of the road to avoid certain men. Those men are probably harmless, but SHE can't know that. And what you consider "expression of sexual attraction", the woman can take as "creepy guy trying to hit on me".
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)said anything close to what you're acusing them of.
salin
(48,955 posts)I didn't see that in any of the posts I read.
If a link to such a post appears, I will read it and respond - because that (hitting on someone in a bar) has nothing to do with these discussions.
Now if the end result of said activity is anything close to the Nashville duer's thread - well that is a different situation altogether. The two scenarios are completely disconnected.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)easier to knock it over. Only problem is that no one I had read had ever said anything remotely like the sentiments he was ascribing to them. Hence his repeated refusal to provide any links.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)told you or anyone that expressions of attraction are tantamount to rape.
And please define: "Expressions of attraction."
And, for the record, many women have been gang raped in bars, so please define "hitting on."
Thanks
Deep13
(39,154 posts)I don't think you mean to do so.
yardwork
(61,709 posts)Otherwise, it sounds like you are dismissing the experience of many people here who have been raped. Sounds almost like you're saying that they weren't "legitimately raped."
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)There is nothing in what I stated that would cause any reasonable person make the leap from what I actually said to dismissing the experience of people who have been raped.
Yours is a smear, plain and simple.
Nice try, but fail.
yardwork
(61,709 posts)You're all over this thread attacking people and basically having a meltdown, but you haven't linked to a single post that supports your contention. Maybe you should go inside, spend some time enjoying the weather?
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)You refuse to, even after many people have asked you to, over two days.
You owe Yardwork an apology. Which you won't give.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)You should extend to every rape victim and potential rape victim the amount of empathy you would expect for yourself. You've probably got more empathy in you than that, but I'm just offering you a starting point.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)Link.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)And, isn't being creepy and unwanted?
Because it is.
However, no one has stated about men what you claim. NO ONE.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It's quite telling that they put their fragile, bruised egos ahead of people who are being brutalized.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I remember reading about the experiences of a woman-to-man transsexual when he started taking testosterone, he said he felt more "blinkered", narrow-minded, and less empathetic. I think we guys need some proper educating on empathizing with others and we are not getting it, and it shows!
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)"blinkered" "narrow minded" "less empathetic"
I've never once felt any of these things and the fact that you imply that we males are genetically less empathetic and selfish is insulting. "we guys need some proper educating" - in what? Maybe, by your logic, we should go back to "unga unga me man!" cavemen style, then?
Shit like this is offensive, Odin. Call me all the names you want for feeling that way, but I won't be tarred and feathered because I produce testosterone instead of estrogen.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)As have others. And Jennifer Boylan's book states the opposite: when she transitioned MTF, she became less confrontational (ie traffic, in work discussions, etc.), had more empathy, etc.
Humans are comprised of a lot of potent things, including hormones. We are a big chemical stew.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)Come on guys!
Let's all get de-testosteroned and full up on estrogen!
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)It's called HUMAN ANATOMY.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)want ti to be so....
personally i have a couple sons that are damn good at empathy.
TM99
(8,352 posts)While it is true we are a 'big chemical stew' as you put it, human behavior and expression can not be reduced to one hormone alone.
While those anecdotes may be accurate, the science has shown time and time again that men with low testosterone actually experience far more irritability and anger issues (as well as depression, low energy, low sex drive, etc.) than those with higher levels.
I can attest to this as I have a damaged pit gland due to chemo treatments from a tumor that developed there. I have to use testosterone injections (as well as other hormone replacements) bi-weekly for the rest of my life to keep all my hormone levels up and stable.
When I first was diagnosed at extremely low levels my degree of anger and irritability were at expression levels I had never personally experienced. As my levels steadily rose in to normal ranges for my age, those and other symptoms abated. Then my endo suggested that she wanted to get my levels up to those of a twenty year old. As they have risen to that level, my mood has become incredibly stable again.
We know that this younger generation has been exposed to much higher levels of estrogen byproducts in foods than any other. We have seen statistics here in these threads on rape that purport to show that a great many younger men today accept extreme rage and rape as being somehow acceptable.
Correlation is not causality so let's do more research as opposed to making blanket statements that just because men have more testosterone then they are somehow more prone to violence solely because of that one hormone.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)actually pay attention to fact instead of what has long been assumed and said because of conditioned behaviors.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)While it may be true that hormones affect us in all sorts of ways and account for many differences between genders, when you go down the road of claiming those hormones pathologize one gender or another, the end of that is not a happy place.
Just sayin'
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Complete with an example of how the idea is not all that crazy, even though it is.
Just sayin'
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)In developing male fetuses, the immature testes produce testosterone, which is converted by the brain into estradiol; the presence of estradiol in the brain results in a 'male' brain pattern. In developing female fetuses, the absence of significant levels of testosterone/estradiol causes the brain to develop as a 'female' brain. The brain becomes sexually dimorphic during a critical period, or window of time, which in humans occurs during fetal development. From that point, the brain sex is determined for life; thus at puberty, circulating testosterone and estrogen act on a brain that is already sexually dimorphic.
From Wikipedia: Estradiol:
Whoda thunk it???
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)DreamGypsy
(2,252 posts)I have a number of long distance trail running friends who are female. The often wear a skort because it's comfortable and also allows private, standing urination. Not all the ladies I run with take advantage of the feature... I recall one conversation about the topic where a friend revealed: "No, I still drop my drawers, otherwise I end up peeing on my shoes."
For some reason, conversation about farts and peeing often occur after a couple hours of running.
The web is wonderful...you can discover a lot of stuff you really didn't want to know by searching on urinating while standing.
Here are some examples:
Swedish Left Party Chapter Wants To Make Urinating While Standing Illegal For Men
Women can pee standing up with Go Girl
How to Urinate Standing up As a Female
and there are those males who advocate urinating while sitting:
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Seems a bit easier for a man to pull that one off.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I would add that what is considered normal levels for both sexes varies quite widely.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I think this stuff is cultural, and that with enough awareness it can be ended. Just like that. We still have yet to reach that critical mass, though, even on this side of the aisle.
I think that sad fact is dismaying to many progressive-minded women.
Lack of empathy doesn't come from gender at all.
The environment and how you grow up are major factors, just like everything else.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)but we choose how to act on them, based on our environment & how we are raised.
Complete agreement with you on this.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I found the previous statement to be incredibly sexist. It would be like saying women need education on controlling hysteria. It's the worst sort of sexism. This is a cultural thing and I will freely admit that men are lacking in this regard. That's why diversity is so important. I wish congress were at least half female. I think America would be a better place for it.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)(I am an Aspie and I have to deal with this type of problem every day too. Everything seems literal to me and I have to parse it out and figure out when it isn't meant to be literal.)
"Empathy deficit" is a good descriptor.
Thank you again.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)So now I'm a sadist or a psychopath on top of a sudden "MRA", even though I despise those people with a passion?
I guess I don't like the idea of being painted with the same brush as the likes of rapist scum.
Excuse me.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)You just proved his thesis.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)especially when I've struggled for years, putting others over self almost every time, even to the detriment of my own health.
I've cried over my friend's pain, been angry at their anger and am always there to listen to them. But, I guess I need to take classes on empathy.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)I honestly do not understand why you aren't getting this.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)smearing of gender based on...chemicals produced?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I personally feel no shame whatsoever for being male, or "producing testosterone," or any of these other strawmen. Nor do I see anyone in particular, recommending "shame" as a course of action. So please calm down!
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)Not sure what to make of that.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I never said any of that. And the world does not revolve around you are your own feelings.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)because I genuinely don't think you're an MRA, and I seriously doubt you're a sadist or a psychopath.
Women aren't saying we're potential rapists. They're saying that they can't tell us from a potential rapist when they don't know us.
There's no defining characteristic of rapists other than rape. They're not a certain height, build, or possessing a specific physical feature. They don't wear a "Hello! I am a rapist!" t-shirt. They don't announce to the people around them that they're a rapist. There isn't a flashing neon sign over their head that reads "Warning: Rapist!". They're literally indistinguishable from you and me, right up until they rape someone.
Given that, it's often in a woman's best interest to assume strangers approaching them *might* be a rapist, especially since there's a not inconsequential segment of society that will blame them if they engage a man in conversation or whatever and he turns out to be a rapist. Also known as the "What was she wearing?" crowd.
It's the same reason you've got a username here instead of your real name, and the reason that though I use my real name, my last name isn't spelled out. The vast majority of us aren't crazy people that might hurt someone from the internet, but someone might be. Since we can't tell who might be a psychopath, we hide our identity from people we don't know.
It's the same reason that if I asked you what your Social Security number is you'd ask me if I'd lost my fucking mind. I'd never steal someone's identity, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that. To hand that over requires trust, which I, as a completely anonymous person in the crowd, don't have. It doesn't mean you think I'm an identity thief or even a potential identity thief. It just means you have no way of knowing, and without any way of knowing, it's better to be safe than sorry.
renate
(13,776 posts)Thank you!
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)thucythucy
(8,086 posts)Thank you for stating it so clearly.
What you posted here could be the start of some very good discussions. Think about posting it as an OP.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Just had to say that again.
I like words, and you most definitely have quite a way with them.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Thanks for posting that. May I keep a copy to use in the future, with credit to you? - because it is so well done it should be used in other discussions.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)that men can be every bit as empathetic as women. You get it.
Look, empathy is a skill. Like many other skills, some people are born with a talent for it, and others not so much, but through practice, everyone can improve it. I teach empathy skills where I volunteer, and over the space of just 65 hours, you can really see the lightbulbs come on for some people who struggled with empathy before.
Whether it's a male or female thing, something to do with brain development or gender roles in society, all that I have no way of knowing. But what I do know is that nearly anyone who truly wants to improve their empathy skills can. I've seen it happen.
yardwork
(61,709 posts)raccoon
(31,120 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)When I was on the road with a band, we were sometimes booked into dives...not often...but every once in a great while.
And by dives, I mean in some rough, mean, nasty threatening part of town where most of the patrons were
either from some shithole, mean life-style or on their way to prison. I was young with long hair and felt like
(at the time), I'd get my ass kicked and beaten at a moments notice.
Patron: Any of you boygirls play "My mule loves me" (or some other silly crap)
Me: Ah..no sir we don't.
Patron: You better learn it quick pussy-boy or your break will consist of a good ol' country ass-beating.
I was sitting outside once (actually hiding!) and I thought:
"Damn, this is the way a lot of Women feel all the time...threatened and helpless...This is fuckin' scary..shit"
Sooo...I don't TRULY understand but I've got a fairly damn good idea.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)threatening to rape you ... because you're young, good looking and gay. ... so some think they will just have their way with you, and society doesn't give a fuck anyway, because you're gay.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...original post for the time being.
2 of my friends are Gay and some of their stories are just as scary...and/or more so...than mine.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)single you out, you can feel their eyes on you.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)but of the few I have read, I was wondering when this would be mentioned.
I'm a female but don't view rape from the prism of men raping women. Many men, hetero and gay, are raped by other men (and a small percentage of women, no doubt).
Thank you both for sharing.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)posts were rather offensive in context. And he went as far as *stating* that he didn't give a shit. So finally I got pissed and gave up.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)for doing battle over this issue.
You won a lot of fans, believe that, even though I realize that was not your aim.
Thanks again. Some posters just don't have very good boundaries.
But they do haul a boatload of bitterness around....
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's nice to see that there is a man who understands how terrified we are when we are alone in public. It can't be helped, it's simply instinct.
Response to Odin2005 (Original post)
Bonobo This message was self-deleted by its author.
salin
(48,955 posts)and think the broad audience is generally rather receptive. But there are a few, who can't see/react to other peoples' feelings when their own are hurt. Those folks keep the chasm large and... sadly... hostile.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)I don't think anyone here is asking you to feel guilty for being a man.
All anyone is asking (I think) is that men try to understand why women are sensitive about this topic, why we may be leery of striking up conversations or making eye contact. Why we may generally be distrustful. I doubt there are many women here who haven't been creeped out at some point or another in their lives, to varying degrees, by a man -- whether a stranger, an acquaintance or family member or a spouse. I myself have been flashed on more than one occasion by strange men, I've had more than one close encounter with dangerous-feeling strangers. Only my sixth sense kept me from being victimized by a serial rapist stalking Northern California. I had so many dates with grabby-handed guys, I can't even count them. I had a 17-year marriage to a much-loved man who nevertheless abused me.
All that is behind me now and my life is at peace, but I still feel nervous going out alone at night, I tend to avert my eyes when I pass a strange man on the street or especially on a trail. It's just an instinct now.
So I think that all I and the other women here are asking from you is that you not belittle the issue. Stop it when you see it.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)now that I'm in the old and harmless category.
GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)I'm not offended.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I concur with that sentiment.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)because it is a stereotypical vice of a group they belong to, at least until proven otherwise, is the definition of prejudice. It is not surprising that this is being objected to.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)You should give me your social security number.
Otherwise you're accusing me of being an identity thief, which I strongly object to.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)yardwork
(61,709 posts)pecwae
(8,021 posts)but alluding to rape or rapists as a mere vice, rather like a stubborn cough, is exactly the problem. You've entirely diminished thousands of victims with just a few words, but it did sound intellectual. Good job.
obamanut2012
(26,137 posts)WTF. So, rape is now a bad habit?
luv_mykatz
(441 posts)that unwanted sexual attention can be threatening to anyone.
With that being said, most of us who are female are more vulnerable to being raped than are most males.
Thank you Odin for having the courage to make the post that you did.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Beacool
(30,251 posts)I think that men have no clue what women go through from a very young age.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)how poisoned relations between the sexes are by that constant drumbeat of fear in the background that every woman hears but men are oblivious to.
Pushing the responsibility off on women by telling them to be paranoid, to dress conservatively, not to wear makeup, to go outside only with a companion, to bar their windows, to keep their doors locked, never go out in the evening, certainly never have a drink and the dismal list goes on and on, simply does not work, has not worked, will never work.
Men are going to have to start taking responsibility for their brothers if this is ever to change. Then again, it all seems to be working out just fine for them, so they aren't likely to bother.
FightForMichigan
(232 posts)It's not fair to say "men have no clue" when I know many who do. For instance, I volunteer for a sexual assault resource center that is run by a man. He has been dedicated to this cause for more than 20 years, has trained hundreds of people on how to advocate on behalf of people (women AND men) who have been raped, been on hundreds of hospital calls to be there for people who were recently sexually assaulted and who is part of our regions sexual assault response team, which is made up of police, prosecutors, medical professionals and advocates. It's not fair to lump him in with people who don't get it just because he has a Y chromosome.
A lot of men do get it. They get it because they know what rape has done to their mothers, sisters, wives and friends. Or they just get it because they simply know that no one deserves to be abused. Or they get it because they, themselves, have gone through it, too.
Please don't be so fast to cast away potential allies.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)It's constant, it never goes away, and they don't experience it.
While some men do understand the damage the actual act has done to individual women, they still don't understand how the constant threat combined with the way all responsibility for it is shoved onto victims and potential victims has poisoned everything.
Tumbulu
(6,292 posts)as usual Warpy, you sure do a good job of expressing the truth clearly.
Thanks.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)I wonder if one of the reasons some men get so offended and angry about discussions of rape is because rape itself is so horrible to think about. And as has been pointed out here and elsewhere, many men, perhaps even most, go through much of their lives not having to think about it, certainly not having to worry about it happening to themselves. I understand that men get raped as well, that the sexual abuse of boys is also a fact, but the cultural perception is that rape is a "woman's issue" and thus not something men need to trouble themselves about. As a result, men in general are much less engaged in discussions on how to prevent rape. I mean, look at any rape crisis center, and count how many men are volunteers, as opposed to women.
And so, when the topic is raised, I wonder if there isn't a defensive reaction that says, "That's not me--I don't want to think about this--and I'm angry at you for bringing it up." The idea that some men (on college campuses say) might be FORCED to think about, discuss this topic, makes them defensive, upset, angry. To be blunt: not having to think about rape is another form of male privilege. And nobody likes being asked to give up their privilege, hence all these hostile responses.
I would ask that those men sit back a moment and, as you say, try to generate some empathy for what women have to live with, every day of their lives. Maybe then they might be able to put their hurt feelings into some perspective.