Questioning Walz's Military Service is Just Plain Stupid

[MineralMan]

In 1965, I enlisted in the USAF for a four-year term. I did that the day I received my draft notice. It was a calculated move on my part, of course. I figured that my chances of being killed in combat would be lower if I committed to four years of service in the USAF. That was the choice I made.

During that four years, I cannot count all of the times I was called a "Draft Dodger" by someone who got drafted into the Army. When that happened, I'd just smile and say, "You'll be out in two. I'm in for four."

Service is service. Air Force guys went to Viet Nam, too. Some died there. I didn't go to Viet Nam, but I had no say in that at all. You enlist and you take your chances. I ended up in Turkey, of all places.

After my enlistment was over, I returned to civilian life and picked up where I left off, more or less. I was four years older, and a little wiser.

So, Tim Walz enlisted in the Army National Guard when he was 17 years old. 24 years later, he retired, having reached the highest possible enlisted rank. Now, he didn't serve around the clock, 24/7/365. He was a National Guard soldier. He made a choice, just as I did. He chose to serve for 24 years in a position that let him also be a teacher and later a member of Congress. You can do that if you're in the National Guard.

I served. Walz served. Everyone who wore the uniform served. Those who were in uniform have always been a small minority of the population. Except for the draft, most served voluntarily. They chose to serve. I did. Walz did. Countless thousands did. All of them served.

Frankly, you either did or did not serve. If you did, you deserve thanks for your service. If you did not, you didn't. That's also OK. But, either way, those who served in the military deserve better than to be questioned. Service is service.

[Wounded Bear]

1. Signed up in the Marine Corps in 1970. I know, crazy, but...

I had an aviation guarantee. Figured I'd be safer in the back areas twisting wrenches on a plane than in the paddies. Like you, I was never sent to Vietnam.

My brother, however (actually two of them) joined the Air Force and went to Nam. One spent his tour dodging rockets and mortar rounds around the air base and eventually came home on a stretcher. The other we're a bit unsure of, but there were rumors he spent some time in the countryside repairing communications installations. He also came home. Funny how that works out. I ended up taking a Mediterranean cruise on an aircraft carrier. Go figure.

They also serve who only stand and wait. Some gave all, all gave something.

[MineralMan]

2. Even in the Marines, the Majority Don't See Combat

The rest are supporting the combat units in some way or another. Sometimes you see the chain, sometimes you don't.

The majority of people in uniform do not see combat. That has always been the case.

You enlisted in the Marine Corps. Others enlist in the Navy or the Air Force or the Army. That is their decision. Once you make that decision, though, you give up control of what you will do while in that branch of the military. Other people will decide what you do and where you go. It's a crap shoot, regardless of the branch of service.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

3. Fantastic thread MineralMan.

You are 100% spot on and it's becoming very obvious that the Been A Dick Donald/Vance campaign has made a strategic blunder by trying to swift boat Gov. Walz's military service.
It has totally backfired on them with vets like you, myself and the vast majority of vets and the general voting public, yet they don't seem to understand this and keep on doubling down.

[MineralMan]

4. Thanks!

As I understand it, Vance didn't see combat, either. And Trump? Nobody in his family ever was in the military, so they can just STFU about that, from the get-go.

Service is service. You served or you did not. Those are the two options. Either way, there's no excuse for denigrating someone's service who did serve.

[Rebl2]

13. I seem

to remember trump saying (the last time he ran) that anyone who goes into the military is a fool or loser. Anyone else remember him saying that?
My husband joined the Air Force in 1970 or ‘71. He was a mechanic working on bombers and also was an electronic tech. Served in Guam and Thailand and spent time at Barksdale in Louisiana.

[tulipsandroses]

5. Aside from the stupidity of questioning his service, its so easy to turn this around on them - the video they are

referencing as " stolen valor" - was a conversation about gun control and why assault rifles should not be in the hands of everyday citizens.
Let's talk about that. Let's talk about why you think that a weapon designed to destroy your enemy in war should be on American streets.

[anciano]

6. Excellent post.

Well said.
Thank you.

[MineralMan]

7. My pleasure!

[tetedur]

8. Funny how W's National Guard service was so glorious but John Kerry's actual battlefield action

was denigrated. Somehow the media never got around to explaining how W was trained as a pilot but was relieved of his ability to fly. He wouldn't submit to his military physical but wanted his personal doctor to give him the physical.

I remember a website where someone went through W's record almost line by line explaining what the codes meant. The bottom line was W didn't show up for duty and was paid months after he should have been had he reported for duty when he should have.

Funny how that double standard still flies with the media.

[MineralMan]

9. Good points!

[Seinan Sensei]

39. George W Bush during Vietnam

... spent his years keeping the skies above Texas safe

[ProfessorGAC]

51. As I Recall..

...his flying was relegated to planes already 2 generations old.
He flew F-102 fighters. That was a late generation 1 or early generation 2 fighter.
Generation 4 jets went into service in 1970.
So he was keeping the skies over Texas safe in a plane no longer considered capable of contemporary combat.

[Emile]

10. I have basically the same story, but I enlisted in the Navy

for four long years getting out in February 1973.

Anyways the National Guard was supposed to be stateside protecting the United States. George Bush started these wars in the Middle East and didn't want to do the unpopular thing of starting up the draft, so he started sending the National Guard.

[MineralMan]

11. Yes. The NG gets used in ways today that were not

contemplated in the past. I don't think that's a good thing, really, but I'm not a military expert in any way.

[GB_RN]

38. To Be Fair...

There were National Guard units that served in WW2.

From the National Guard’s Wikipedia page:

National Guard infantry divisions which participated in the war included the 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 35th, 36th, 37th, 38th, 40th, 41st, 43rd, 44th, and 45th. National Guard regiments were also part of the Americal, 7th, 8th, 24th, and 25th Infantry Divisions.

There were also a few units activated and sent to Vietnam, and NG units made up about 40% of the US’s Expeditionary Forces in WW1.

Been reading a lot of WW2 history lately…

[MineralMan]

40. Thanks for that info!

[GB_RN]

55. Absolutely!

I’m a big WW2 history buff. So, I absorb any WW2 material/histories I can find. My fascination with it comes from my grandfather. He was a B-25 pilot with the 12th US Army Air Force (based in Africa and then Corsica). I have a collection of his pilot gear and other equipment that he would have worn. An all items are authentic, no replicas.

[MineralMan]

56. My father was a B-17 pilot.

Based in Italy, then North Africa. He came home 3 months after I was born. Before he went to his first base in Italy, my mom was with him. 1944.

[GB_RN]

57. Mediterranean Theater of Operations...

And a B-17 pilot. So that would be the 9th, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think that the 12th had any heavy bombers, but I know the 12th did.

My grandmother was pregnant with my mom at the time, so she definitely wasn’t going overseas.

[MineralMan]

58. 463rd Bombardment Group (heavy)

Based in Foggia, Italy for at least part of 1944 and early 1945.

https://www.463rd.org/history.htm

[GB_RN]

59. Cool.

I had forgotten about the 15th.

My grandfather was 12th AF, 57th bomb wing, 321st bomb group, 447th squadron. Joseph Heller served in the same bomb group, but 446th squadron. I have the 321st’s combat diaries.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

12. One other thing I feel I need to point out

is that the Harris/Walz campaign is refusing to belittle Vance's military service, which by all accounts, he served honorably and received an Honorable Discharge, I really, really like that and what Gov. Walz said yesterday was the perfect counter to the attempts to swift boat him..

Gov. Walz: These guys are attacking me for my record of service. Let me be clear, I am damn proud of my service to our country. And I firmly believe you should never denigrate another person’s record of service. To anyone brave enough to put on the uniform of our great country, including my opponent, I just have a few simple words. Thank you for your service and sacrifice

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, exactly.

If someone served, they deserve our thanks. In today's draft-free world, everyone who serves volunteers to do so. A big thank you to all of them.

Maybe that's the difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats know and recognize the value of service.

[underpants]

15. By signing up you give up control

It’s a huge step. Yeah you might be a _____ but if needed you could be on the front. If the enemy gets inside the wire, cooks/mechanics/etc are grabbing their weapon because they have no choice.

I was a Cav Scout so I literally signed up to the THE FRONT not that I understood that at the time. If I was deployed (which I wasn’t) during Gulf 1 then well I signed up for it.

During the War on Iraq, the DoD had a Blue to Green program. Navy personnel were reassigned and trained to be Army Soldiers (infantry I think).

Then there’s Dorie Miller at Pearl Harbor
As a mess attendant second class[1][2] in the United States Navy, Miller helped carry wounded sailors to safety during the attack on Pearl Harbor. He then manned an anti-aircraft gun[3] and, despite no prior training in gunnery, officially shot down one plane (according to Navy Department Records), but Miller and other eye witnesses claimed the ranges of four to six.[4]

[COL Mustard]

32. If you were a Cav Scout you weren't AT the front.

You were behind the lines on the other freaking side, snooping and pooping.

[underpants]

35. Possibly

We were recon for the whole 3ID so we weren’t going anywhere unless the whole division went.
In Bradley’s. Stay in our lanes (3-5 miles per platoon) and check in at certain lines. If we didn’t call in 😳 well that’s where the bad guys are at.

Looking back, if the balloon had gone up we’d have had almost no chance of making it. Again, dying comes with the uniform. Basic wasn’t about killing, it was mostly conditioning young men to be prepared to die and what are you going to do before/about it?

[ibegurpard]

16. It worked for them with Kerry and Max Cleland

That's why they're doing it

[Hekate]

46. Absolutely right, and some of us have long, long memories. Hoping that the Dem party fights back hard this time.

[Bucky]

17. His former CO in the MNARNG is miffed at him

It's gonna get aired on Fox soon enough, so be prepared for this to be hyped. But here is the real vulnerability:

There's was no stolen honor. But he ended his enlistment contract before it expired so that he could run for Congress. As a 24 year veteran, that was his right. He gave plenty of notice.

After he gave notice, after he was in the pipeline to exit and run for office, his unit got deployment orders. The position he had moved into was Sergeant Major, and he would have held that rank in the deployment had he gone over to Italy with his battalion. (They were relieving a regular army battalion that was deploying to Afghanistan).

Only he had been calling his exit rank "Command Sergeant Major" (the patch with the star and laurels below) which he would have been had he deployed. But he exited a month or two before that, having achieved the office for that. Since he didn't deploy to the field, he was still a regular Sergeant Major, even if he'd received his insignia for the CSM posting. So in theory he was still at SgtMaj rank, the stripes with the star, but not the laurel leaves (below).

Both jobs are at E-8. Only the CSM is the command partner with the Major or Lt Col who commands the battalion and the SgtMaj has other administrative duties. If the SgtMaj moves over to the command partner position with the CO, then promotion to CSM is more or less automatic, as I understand it. But the field deployment itself didn't happen while Walz was in uniform. He'd actually been planning to exit his 24 years of service since February, but the paperwork went through in May and the deployment occurred in July.

It's an understandable but exploitable misunderstanding. But his exCO is correct about this break in protocol. I suspect he's a Trumper humper, but he's right that Walz should not be claiming CSM exit rank when he only had made SgtMaj.

Honestly, if his position was so critical, they would have stop-lossed him. But they didn't, so it's not like he left his team high and dry; he simply just kept getting promoted while his exit status was being processed.

I believe his ARNG pension rank is really only Master Sgt (E-7) since he held his last rank for less than two years, but that's a different discussion.

Anyhoo, here are the different E-8 insignia concerned

CmdSgtMaj


SgtMaj

[COL Mustard]

34. CSM/SGM are E-9

1SG/MSG are E-8.

I don't know the specifics of how Walz was appointed to what rank, but there's no stolen valor involved. As an officer, if you are promoted to a rank you normally have to serve 3 years in that rank to retire in it. I've known a lot of people who pinned on Colonel and retired 18 months later as a Lieutenant Colonel. Same with General Officers. I've known several who retired as MG (2-star) with less than three years TIG and reverted to BG (1-star). It costs them money, from their retirement, but sometimes there's a good reason for it (like you get a huge opportunity in industry) or a bad reason (like you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar).

[Figarosmom]

18. Its making them

Look bad,not Walz. Minnesota nat. Guard put out his record and that should have been the end of it. They keep harping at it making them assholes to sane people.

[relayerbob]

19. The GQP is nothing if not plain stupid

I wonder if any of those who served, but also swiftboated Kerry feel any shame now?

[3catwoman3]

31. "...feel any shame now?"

Highly unlikely.

[relayerbob]

37. Agreed, it mostly a rhetorical question

[ancianita]

20. Thank you for helping me know what to say when online trolls detract from Walz's service.

Thank you for your serving our country. And for continuing to help civilians stand up for military service in any/all forms.

[Elessar Zappa]

21. Yes, thank you.

I think this shit of questioning Walz’s service is actually backfiring on them.

[TygrBright]

22. When you enlist...

...to serve, when you sign on the dotted line the recruiter points to, when you stand and raise your hand and take that oath, you are essentially saying, "I am handing control of whether I live or die to others, because we all share the goal of keeping Americans safe."

Every woman or man who makes that choice has my respect, regardless of what happens after. Unless they do the stupid, of course - and that's not my call. But the "dishonorable discharge" contingent are less than 1/10 of 1%. Even the "bad conduct" discharges are less than 1/2 of 1%.

So staking everyone who made that choice to my respect feels right to me.

Even Shady Vance gets that stake. I despise him for all kinds of other reasons, but not the fact that his service didn't involve a lot of dramatic shooting and getting shot at.

certainly,
Bright

[NoMoreRepugs]

23. Belittling the service of a National Guard or Reservist in any branch is stupid.

[Politicub]

24. If republicans will trash the honorable service of one vet

to try and score cheap political points, then they would do the same to all vets, if given the power.

[MineralMan]

25. Well, Trump thinks people in the military are stupid losers.

He has said so, directly. So, that's what he thinks of the military, apparently.

[Raven123]

26. Well put

If you google Walz military record, there are many links to those who criticize(d) him on issues already fleshed out thoroughly. That won’t stop the repitition however.

It is notable that a letter of criticism that has been repeatedly cited from 2 CSM was a PAID letter. Wonder why they had to be paid? How honorable is that? Note that of the links I checked, most of them cite that fact about the letter. Others note the claims of it’s contents only.

[LoisB]

27. Excellent!

[lame54]

28. Do the math...

4×365=1460
24×52×2=2496

Walz has been criticized for being "only" a reserve or a "weekend warrior"

[liberal N proud]

29. They will tell you it's because he lied

Seriously, I have had idiotic conversations with people who simply say they didn’t support Harris because Walz lied about his rank.

[peggysue2]

30. Spot on, MM

My husband enlisted and served during the Vietnam Era. He served six years in the Naval Reserve, two years active on an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean. Like you, it was a personal decision during the nerve-wracking draft lottery and he had no idea where he'd be sent. He was actually trained for river boats, so he was grateful for the aircraft carrier assignment.

To my knowledge, my husband's never been accused of being a draft dodger. However, when he wears his insignia cap, he's always careful to point out he did not serve in Vietnam but during the Vietnam Era.

The 'Stolen Valor" accusation on Walz is ludicrous and disgusting.

[MineralMan]

33. Say Thanks to your husband for me.

I don't wear anything that identifies myself as a veteran. It was just something I did when I was a young guy. I benefited more from my service in the USAF than the service benefited from that service, I'm certain.

And then, after my time in service, I used the GI Bill to finish my college education. I had dropped out of college, for a couple of reasons, which was why I got a draft notice. Fortunately, the USAF recruiter got me enlisted before the date I was supposed to show up for my physical.

The Air Force, in its wisdom, sent me to Syracuse University for 9 months of total immersion Russian language training. That was a unique experience, I can tell you. The school was off the Syracuse campus and was all USAF people. But, it was a Syracuse University program. So, I got a full year of college credits for that 9 months. Then, the USAF sent me to Turkey to make some use of that training. More interesting stuff.

Then, I came back to the USA and worked in a building alongside civilians, still making use of that training.

After four years, my enlistment was finished and I returned to civilian life.

So, when folks are wearing their veterans outfits, I don't bother. I don't need attention. I'm glad to have served, but don't need praise for doing so.

[peggysue2]

42. I'll pass the message along, MM

And right back at you!

My husband also took advantage of the GI Bill to complete his undergraduate and graduate work. So, yes there were benefits, not the least of which was retiring to civilian life physically unscathed.

But overall, those were very uncertain times. For both off us.

[AdamGG]

36. Also, Walz signed up for the Guard when there was no draft, after Vietnam

so no one can allege that he had an ulterior motive and was doing it to avoid anything. He volunteered because he wanted to be of service to his country.

[MineralMan]

41. Very good point!

[cstanleytech]

43. It's just weird 🤯

[TBF]

44. My dad was the same as you - only 2 years older.

He was in a small town and graduated at 17 (birthday later in year - more common back then). There were already rumblings about Vietnam so he begged his parents to sign so he could enlist in the Navy. He did come back with injuries - but it was from handling chemicals (like the Agent Orange cases - just different substances - thankfully all in his service records).

He served his 4 years and returned to the midwest. I've always respected his service, and that of my uncles. Other than my dad, I'm not even sure which ones enlisted & which were drafted. In my generation one cousin enlisted. It was Afghanistan & I remember this because my dad reminded me to write letters to him, so he had mail coming from home.

[musclecar6]

45. I enlisted

In the Air Force in 1966. I did it for two reasons as I came from a small town in Connecticut and unless you were in college or some other legitimate endeavor and you were of age, it was one of those things you were supposed to do. When your country calls, you stand up. The other reason was, I figured if I enlisted in the Air Force, yes, I’ll probably have to spend possibly one year in Vietnam, but the other three years I can continue on going to college at night and planning for my career when I got out of my commitment to Uncle Sam.

As it turned out, I spent my entire three years and five months stationed in California after I got out of trainIng( I got a seven month early out because certain career fields they were starting to wind down didn’t need so many people as it looked like Vietnam was gonna come to an end). I was trained as a procurement specialist and was a purchasing agent for the Air Force from local vendors in the area. It was a great job in the Air Force and one could stay in the Air Force for 20 years or get out after your four years and go to work in Civil Service doing the exact same job.

The point others have made on here is once you sign onto the line and raise your hand to join the military, you have no control over what they’re gonna tell you to do or assign you to. They don’t ask you what you wanna do they tell you what you’re going to do. Huge difference from civilian life.

Tim Walz spent 24 years in the military. Then that Vance character has the audacity to question his integrity and denigrates him. Vance has some nerve, especially since he has partnered up with that absolutely deplorable character who dreamed up a bone spurs lie and then calls people who are in the service, losers and suckers. Vance has a lot of explaining for making that choice after previously saying publicly many times, what a deplorable person Trump is and then signing up to run as the vice president .Tim Walz has nothing to explain about.

[GoreWon2000]

47. Pro repug media ignoring orange turd draft dodging

In it's typical pro repug coverage, the pro repug media is totally ignoring the orange turd's draft dodging to avoid serving in Viet Nam. They sit silent while turd Vance attack's Governor Walz. I'd love to see turd Vance asked about the orange turd's draft dodging and watch him squirm.

[Jarqui]

48. I'm still bothered by what they did to Walz

Generations of my family served. By far, my brother and I did the least - it's something I NEVER tell people because it was so close to nothing compared to others. My family members paid a heavy price. It was tough and still is to this day. Wounds that will never heal. So maybe I'm more sensitive to what they did to Walz.

In 2002, Walz was reviewed because he had hearing problems. Ultimately, they let him continue in the service.
Combat can be more dangerous with hearing problems. You sometimes can't tell where the gunfire or tank sound is coming from for example or someone sneaking up behind you.
In 2003-4, Walz went to Italy in Operation Enduring Freedom - part of what he did was train soldiers in the use of weapons including heavy artillery (which is apparently how he hurt his ears over the years). His unit guarded air bases with nuclear weapons against terrorist attack .. but he "never carried a weapon of war" ...
In 2005, after he retired, he had stapedectomy surgery, a procedure in which damaged bones inside the ear are replaced with a prosthesis. It improved his hearing but does not cure it. And he still has tinnitus.

If your ears are that bad that you had to have that kind of surgery, how does it make sense to deploy that person to combat? His safety is in question with poor hearing. If his hearing gets more damage from combat, how will he be able to hear his students questions? Or debate in the House of Representatives? Or hear his grandchildren?

Part of my own hearing problems is related to discharging weapons. I often have to have people repeat themselves. etc. I have tinnitus - sometimes bilateral, sometimes unilateral. Tinnitus can be really loud at times. So I can relate.

I find it repugnant that they would smear Walz for saying "I've had enough." under those circumstances especially when he suffered this damage in the line of duty.

[Emile]

50. This would make a great opening post!

[Hekate]

49. Thanks, MM. Senators Kerry and Cleland got slammed by the Swiftboaters, who should be ashamed

…to show their faces in public. We can’t let that happen again.

[keithbvadu2]

52. By his own standards, Vantz abandoned his fellow Marines.

By his own standards, Vantz abandoned his fellow Marines.

JD, your country and comrades-in-arms could have continued to use your skills.

Yet, you just abandoned them to depart the military service.

Our country was still in Iraq in 2007. Not just maybe going there.
Actual fighting going on.

Maybe your tour was too arduous?

[Buckeyeblue]

53. They have no choice. They can't campaign on ideas because they have none.

These are their ideas:

Mass deportation
Let Putin win
Give extraordinary rich people more tax breaks
Strip women of all of their reproductive rights
Strip lgbtq of all of their rights
End democracy

[rickford66]

54. In 1969 I enlisted directly into the Seabees as a CE3 (E4)

Two year hitch with a 6 month extension and guaranteeing two Viet Nam tours. In bootcamp they let you request three duty stations upon graduation. I picked Viet Nam for all three. The officer interviewing me said nobody ever did that before. I asked his where I was going to be sent and he replied Viet Nam. When our orders came through I was assigned to Operation Deep Freeze, a year in Antarctica plus the chance of duty in New Zealand before and after the year on the ice. Go figure. I was able to work in NZ for a total of six months and met my eventual wife. We married about 8 months after I returned home. Hey. You take your chances and roll the dice. I fully expected at least two tours in Nam.

on edit: I was discharged three months early