Is it true? "How Pinterest Is Killing Feminism"

[FrodosPet]

Are traditionally feminine interests like fashion, recipes, home decor, etc. an attack on Feminism?

Do sites that are oriented towards women have an obligation to minimize fluffy subjects and focus on the heavy heady stuff like economic and social equity?

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/how-pinterest-is-killing-feminism

One in five women over the age of 18 who regularly use the internet is on Pinterest, which had an estimated 23 million users users as of July. It also has an overwhelmingly female audience; around 60 percent of visitors to the site are women. And the site is only growing: between July 2011 and July 2012, 22 million users joined. Since Pinterest stopped requiring an invite to become a member in August, that number is only increasing. But the site's popularity highlights an uncomfortable reality: Pinterest's user-generated content, which overwhelmingly emphasizes recipes, home decor, and fitness and fashion tips, feels like a reminder that women still seek out the retrograde, materialistic content that women's magazines have been hawking for decades — and that the internet was supposed to help overcome.

Pinterest — which drives more traffic to marthastewart.com and marthastewartweddings.com than Facebook and Twitter combined — has become impossible to ignore, even as critics deride it as "the Mormon housewife's image bookmarking service of choice." But it's much more than a collection of pretty pictures. In fact, the site seems like one big user-curated women's magazine — from the pre-internet era. Sites like Jezebel were created as an antidote to women's print magazines, which are rife with diet, fitness and dressing tips. The internet has for many years now been thought of as a place where women can find smarter, meatier reads just for them.

~ snip ~

On Pinterest, you'd never know that sites like Jezebel and Feministing had hit the internet. "Thinspo" and pro-eating disorder content may be banned on Pinterest, but the site is filled with images of Victoria's Secret models wearing bikinis and other cellulite-free, idealistic bodies. Images of covetable figures and body parts often get hundreds of repins.

~ snip ~

But while sites like Jezebel have found sizeable audiences online, it's taken a lot of work to avoid rehashing the same old tropes. Anna Holmes launched Jezebel with the hope of encouraging women not to obsess over their appearance, materialism, and being thin, but noticed these themes would creep into the site's comment threads anyway.

~ snip ~

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The reason I bring this up is that I have a friend who is a self-described "girly girl". She is most definitely liberal, supports all the traditional feminist viewpoints on equality, abortion rights, etc. But she feels like she is under attack for the fact that she likes scrap booking and beading and her other traditionally feminine interests.

Can "traditionally feminine" coexist with feminism? Or is she knitting her own slave chains when she knits her own scarf? Is it necessary to completely abandon "gender normative" actions and ideals in order to not insult people who are not gender normative? Or is it possible for people to be themselves, even if that includes accepting and acting in accordance with old-fashioned gender roles when others cannot?

[HiPointDem]

1. feminism isn't about whether you knit or not.

[kestrel91316]

102. Indeed. I am partial to crocheting and baking. AND I am a fire-breathing feminist.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. The answer is "no"

first: "one in five women" should probably read "one in five AMERICAN women"; America is not the world, American women are not the only feminists. Second: One can walk and chew gum at the same time. It's possible to be a feminist and enjoy cooking, or fashion, or interior design, or stereotypically "feminine" interests; humans are complex, and these aren't necessarily mutually exclusive things. And the pervasive influence of culture can't really be discounted. Given that cultural attitudes towards women encourage things like dieting and attractiveness these are things that are going to be to some extent internalised by many women, the same way that, thanks to cultural ideas of masculinity, many men have a sort of internalised homophobia (this is what Freud called the "superego&quot .

[ismnotwasm]

21. +1

"American women are not the only feminists"

(And the rest of your post)

[XemaSab]

3. We're still in the throes of a long national discussion on what it means to be a woman

I recently listened to a webinar done by two young ladies who are most assuredly not feminists. In fact, they're unapologetic supporters of biblical patriarchy. The topic of the webinar was "Reclaiming Beauty," and it was an attempt to define a new standard for modesty that doesn't involve denim jumpers or the librarian bun. The young women in their circles love Pinterest. They fill Pinterest with all kinds of feminine inspiration.

On the other hand, most of the feminists that I know are reconquering the DIY spirit. I know very few women who don't sew, knit, cross-stitch, or do something else.

Maybe it's because there was a generation there where it looked like these traditional female skills were a dying art. Or maybe it's because we're at a point now where a woman doesn't have to feel like she's betraying the sisterhood if she likes to make pretty things.

[dballance]

89. I like your post.

I think we really need to be moving the conversation from what does it mean to be a woman or what does it mean to be a man to what does it mean to be a happy person.

Of course, as a male, I can't begin to understand the discrimination (intentional and unintentional) women feel every day. As a gay male I do understand discrimination and losing a job because of it though.

I grew up on a farm so I did all those butch male things like plant crops, herd cattle, build things. My dad never excluded my sisters from those activities but actually required them to participate just like my brother and me. I guess he was pretty forward thinking for the time.

I like to sew - very much considered a "woman's" thing to do. I like to sew men's shirts because there is a very rewarding sense of satisfaction after you complete one and then are able to wear it. It's really kind of fun to say "Thanks, I made this shirt" if you get complemented on one. When I took sewing classes at the local community college I was the only guy in the class. One of the other students commented I must be pretty secure in myself to have a pink sewing kit (the tote with all my stuff like thread, scissors, measuring tape, etc.). Well no, it was just the only color those boxes came in. I couldn't find any tote that wasn't pink or purple or some other "feminine" color. I found that a little infuriating that it was obvious the manufacturers thought only women sew.

I think we need to focus less on terminology and more on making sure everyone has equal opportunity to do what they love. Whether it's male me sewing or cooking or females building bridges or running corporations or governments.

[antigone382]

105. There's also the extent to which DIY is an antidote to extreme consumerism and waste...

When (mostly female) Bangladeshi workers are dying by the hundreds in textile factory fires so that you can have socks cheap enough to throw them out as soon as they get a hole in them, how much of a feminist can you really be? Knowing how to make our own quality goods and cook our own quality foods is valuable. I view it as part of a more globally comprehensive feminist consciousness that incorporates economic justice and sustainability into the total picture.

[OKNancy]

4. Of course not. Being a feminist is about

doing what you want to, and being respected for your choices.
In my own case, I did the power-woman thing. I owned a business for 35 years. Then I retired and you know what I do now?
Besides my political activities, I have embraced what some would call the feminine arts.
I decorate, read about decorating, spend a lot of time setting a beautiful table for the meals I enjoy cooking.
I'm not into Victoria's secret ( too old for that... I prefer plaid shirts and jeans ) but if younger women want to buy that stuff, I say "whatever".

[FrodosPet]

7. That's what I want to think as well

I believe the majority of feminists are live and let live people.

Nevertheless, I have read several radfem blogs. In many cases, women who do not reject femininity are considered brainwashed Stepford wives who are selling out their sisters. The general tone of the article linked is not quite as severe as that, but it does seem to find a lot of fault with women's interest in soft topics.

My friend, my "little sis", is a girly girl, she wants to remain a girly girl, and I think it is just as disgusting for a woman to insult her for that as it is for a guy to insult a woman for wearing a flannel shirt and riding a motorcycle.

[obamanut2012]

28. RadFem, eh?

Interesting.

[FrodosPet]

100. Feministe, Rage Against The Manchine and I Blame The Patriarchy, amongst others

RadFem is THEIR terminology, not mine.

[Arkansas Granny]

5. Being a feminist, to me, means that women are free to make

their own decisions about who they are instead of letting society make those decisions for them. As with many things, them key is choice. I don't see Pinterest threatening that.

[Tanuki]

6. Feminism is alive and well on Pinterest.

http://pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=feminism

[sendero]

8. Idiotic ideas..

.... from "feminist" morons who think a woman is a man without a penis. It's laughable and should have been over by 1979.

Feminism is about equal opportunity and equal respect and equal rights. It is not about women wielding jackhammers, unless of course they want to.

[RC]

56. +10

[font size=5]

Feminism is about equal opportunity and equal respect and equal rights. It is not about women wielding jackhammers, unless of course they want to.

[/font size]

[TroglodyteScholar]

66. ^^this n/t

[cali]

9. what a fucking piece of trash of an article

this article is anti-feminist. It denigrates women. I want to see the asshole who wrote this dog crap write the mirror article about men and their endless interest in sports and Playboy, sneering at them in the same ugly manner that this piece sneers. Actually, I don't. Oh, and a sizable minority of men clearly frequent the site referred to.

Damn, I hate stupid and this is a breathtakingly stupid pile of shit.

[Matariki]

86. +1

[glowing]

10. My mom does an after school "Wings" classes... Knitting class is one of her most

popular "classes" that students sign up for (boys and girls).

Being self-sufficient doesn't mean you are somehow not a feminist. We used to do just as many chores at the barn as the boys... but we also picked all the blackberry's and could make some damned good pies. I'd say we were a more rounded package... LOL.

Country living keeps you on your toes... And I feel I've lived too long in a city now... I miss the country. I miss showing my kid what its like to hike thru the woods (or yes even go hunting with his Uncle for the turkey dinner bird or a deer to fill up the meat freezer).

[Tsiyu]

76. And the skills here are equal opportunity

up in BFE.

In the local paper, the girls as well as the boys get a big picture when they bag their first deer. Some may hate hunting, but the deer are abundant and the meat is actually used here. Every hunter I know shares their bounty with their neighbors and those in need. Most who garden - men and women - do so as well.

We also live in a place where there are bear and bobcat and other wild things, like the two-legged Meth head; knowing how to defend yourself and your pets/livestock is an important skill for men and women out in the boonies. So gun skills are something nearly every child learns here.

Life skills empower you wherever you are - city or country. I love to visit the city, but live in the country. Maybe you can get out in the wilds soon, glowing.

[glowing]

104. I don't have a daughter, so I didn't include that genera in the wishing for a more

subsistance lifestyle for my son to experience, but no doubt, if I had a daughter, if she wished to go hunting too, she would. One of my good friends enjoyed bow hunting with her dad (even got to miss school a couple of times during the season).

On the other hand, my Uncle does the veggie garden, and my Aunt handles her flowers and loves doing home crafts.. She's the one we normally consult if we get stumped on a project... quilting or crocheting instructions.

[antigone382]

106. Feminism that doesn't acknowledge just resource use is not true feminism.

The fact is that the rapacious consumption and wastefulness necessary to maintain our "modern" lives is incredibly destructive, and takes from poorer women (and men) all over the world. And a part of that is relearning the skills that allow us to produce and repair the things we need/want for day to day life. Interest in healthy and (dare I say it) beautiful food is not retrograde; neither is knowing how to sew your own clothes, etc.

Now maybe that isn't the only thing going on with pinterest, but deriding these skills as "fluff" just because their appearance on an American photo-sharing website goes along with our culture's ideas of femininity ignores the very real importance those skills have in our lives. We need people who know how to cook food and sew clothing as much as we need people who know how to build houses and work on cars.

[Tsiyu]

117. You are correct but how "not sexy"

Methinks it's far more sexy for a handful of people to find some way to disparage feminism in any way one can find to do so.

Caring about resources - and trying to find ways to end slave labor - and finding meaning and value in your own personal choices regardless of gender - are all tenets of feminism as far as what I believe as a feminist.

There are people on the fringes of men's rights groups and on the fringes of women's rights groups who will squawk and shriek absurdities about the opposite sex and its motives and character.

Normal people don't pay them much mind. People with agendas DO pay them lots of attention.

I like what you've said on this thread

[clyrc]

11. I like Pinterest

And I certainly don't think it's killing feminism. There are, however, some really stupid anti-feminist pins on there every once in a while.
I hate those, and the mean spirited ones, and the slut shaming ones and the anti- Obama pins. However, I see much more I do like so I snarl at them and then move on.

[Lightbulb_on]

12. There are good things about some gender roles...

... and there are benefits to keeping them in place.

Your friend should enjoy what she enjoys and forget anyone looking down on her.

Had this conversation with my wife the other day about how women who work feel superior towards traditional housewives. Not meeting some new modern standard apparently.

[obamanut2012]

29. No, there are NO good things about "gender roles"

I would like to see you support this statement. What are good about gender roles?

You believe women who work feel superior to women who are "stay at home""?

[MadrasT]

37. Fail, fail, and fail again.

There are NO good things about gender "roles".

Everybody, but everybody, should embrace the traits they were born with and utterly reject whether they are considered to be "male" or "female" traits.

If a woman likes traditionally female stuff, GREAT, she should not suppress that.

But in no way, shape, or form should any human being be expected to perform any particular "role" due to the arrangement of their sexual organs.

Ever.

[NYC Liberal]

45. Gender "roles" are NOT good.

But choosing for yourself what you like and want to do? That is good, even if it happens to be something seen as "traditional" (but again, because it's something you like not because you feel the need to fulfill some "gender role&quot

[seabeyond]

54. did you set your wife straight? we can only hope. wimmins

ya know

[Lightbulb_on]

60. About what?

She was relating to me what she observed...

[LanternWaste]

82. Inferred and extrapolated, rather than "observed", I would think...

"She was relating to me what she observed..."

Inferred and extrapolated, rather than "observed", I would think.

[Lightbulb_on]

87. Definitely observed...

[hifiguy]

65. Meh. Every person, male and female, should be able to pursue

whatever captures their fancy without being judged on it. I am a middle aged guy who loves both NFL football and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Yes, I am a brony - and a long time animation geek.

[Tsiyu]

67. oh, please

way to try to morph that personal problem into a "truthyism."

There's never been anything GOOD about assigning roles to ANYONE on ANY BASIS unless you assign those roles based on merit and interest and willingness to learn.

Men can take children to doctors' appointments, women can change tires,

Men can read bedtime stories; women can earn a living for the household.

When I read these folksy little "heh-heh-heh- just sittin on the front porch arranging the world into my own personal boxes" posts, I am like most thinking people who most assuredly do not chuckle with you and scratch our crotches pining for the Good Ole Days.

You may be the "man of the house keepin' everyone fed and secure" but some day you will go away. ( Yet this FACT never enters into the "Gender Role" anti-logic. )

I can only assume that patriarchs pass "their" women around to the next brother or friend in line after they die? What DO your wives and daughters and mothers do when there is no patriarch left? Crumple and wither?

And if your mothers and wives die first, do you starve and never have clean laundry? Does a young widower automatically have to pass his small children off to the nearest female?

And what about same sex couples? I guess they never get a thing done, or only do half the "roles?" Like maybe: keep all the cars running but never run the vacuum cleaner? Or always have fabulous drapes but no one ever takes out the trash?


Talk about fantasy worlds......

[Lightbulb_on]

77. The women in my family, if I were to die...

... Would continue to kick ass.

It's happened before when our last family patriarch died and will continue if I were to kick off.

[Tsiyu]

92. Here's your chance

to tell us which "gender roles should remain in place" then.

Which roles should have no deviation from your little check boxes?

[Lightbulb_on]

109. You seem all ready to be outraged so I'll try not to burst your bubble terribly...

It isn't that I believe there there shouldn't be deviation from traditional roles.

It is that there is just as much benefit in them as non-traditional ones. A boy who plays with Army stuff, joins Boy Scouts and plays football can grow up into a functioning valuable member of society. A girl who plays with Barbie and EZ-bake and baby dolls can grow up to be a functioning valuable member of society. We shouldn't look down our noses at people who follow the "old school" gender roles as unenlightened.

The point of my post was to say that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The woman in the OP feels that she is looked down upon for assuming "traditional" feminine interests and I believe that there is value in what she has chosen.

I'm a live and let live kind of guy...

Have a lovely evening...

[Tsiyu]

115. I can't think of anyone who would disagree

with your new statement.

To each his or her own is the spirit.

I love to grow things and collect plants ( no, no illegal ones ) and most of the people with whom I chat about flowers and shrubs are men. This past summer, working for a nursery, I found that the majority of people bragging and showing me pics of their gardens or asking me for advice about roses, etc., were male.

I thought that was pretty cool.

There is value in each person, and each person should feel free to find value in whatever activity interests them.

Thanks for responding. I do appreciate it.

[Nikia]

90. My father's family grew up learning to do "male" and "female" things

My grandmother had lost her father when she was five. Her older brother lost his wife after having five children under the age of ten. She knew that even "traditional" men and women had to be prepared.

[hifiguy]

95. My mom always worked from the time I was in school.

My dad worked nights. I was cooking and doing laundry when I was in my teens. After my dad died when I was 18 I took over all the cooking, grocery shopping and many of the household chores. Never dawned on me not to, as I wasn't working and my mom was.

[Lex]

71. "keeping them in place"

Ha.

[Nye Bevan]

13. Surely a woman can be a feminist and also enjoy baking, knitting and decorating?

Just because a woman likes to knit does not mean that she is anti-choice or that she does not mind the glass ceiling.

[GoCubsGo]

22. The funny thing is, lots of men get into those "female" activities, too.

I use Pinterest to collect recipes and crochet patterns. A lot of my recipes come from males chefs and male food bloggers, and I have crochet patterns from the web page of The Crochet DUDE. Heck, my brother and some of my male friends are constantly posting about what they just cooked for dinner on their Facebook pages, often with photos and recipes. They just don't seem to care about Pinterest, for whatever reason. I think a lot of them just collect their favorite web pages in other ways. They just organize differently, and perhaps Pinterest doesn't fit in here.

[Matariki]

83. Exactly.

I know LOTS of men who cook, who collect recipes, who knit, who sew, who care about what their homes look like and collect interior design image ideas.

Sheesh. Whoever wrote that article lives in the past.

[gollygee]

14. Eh

I use Pinterest and I would say that most of the people who use it are concerned about weddings, baby anouncements, acheiving a perfect body, and conversely eating a lot of dessert. Oh and having a beautifully decorated house. So I see the point of the article.

But, on the other hand, it is what you pin, so you just pin what you like. It is handy for saving stuff you might be interested in, and I follow people/organizations that recommend books, and I like it for that. Also, I follow a couple of people who are into photography and post beautiful photos. I am not a photographer but I like that. There's something out there for everyone, though most of the audience does seem to be moms.

Of course, being a mom is not anti-feminist. I'm a mom, and I follow stuff about parenting as well. And I even pin some recipes, though I dont use it much for that.

I think there could be an argument that because it's so dominated by women that it isn't at all "anti-feminist." But I see the article's argument as well. I certainly don't think it's killing feminism anyway, even if it attracts a lot of women who are not concerned about feminism.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Let me give it a generous read

I'll start out by saying that I don't necessarily agree (or disagree) with the article. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but really trying to clarify some of the positions I take to be implicit here.

So, I see a lot of folks responding that feminism is about "choice," and that you can "pin whatever you like" on Pinterest, etc. It's a typical sort of (consumerist) theme - it's all about what you as a person decide. That's all well and good, but that begs the question asked by most feminists theory since the second wave. If it were merely about "choice," you wouldn't have much feminism. That's because feminist analysis has generally considered "choice" or "preference" (liking) an effect of pre-existing social and economic forces. Choice and preference are conditioned, not originary, goes the theory. You like what you like not because of something inherent in the thing or in you, but because of social forces that position both that object/activity and your subjectivity in particular ways. In this sense, it is not merely natural or an effect of personal preference that more women like to knit than men. It is an effect of the way women's activities and knitting are positioned socially.

And if that's the case, how does such positioning happen? Through multiple communication channels, including social media. Indeed, from this perspective, there's nothing particularly surprising about this analysis.

This is basic, first-year women's studies stuff. The notion that the personal is political - the very rallying cry of the second wave - is rooted in the notion that personal preference is rooted in social forces. It's interesting to see so many people dispute that here! Certainly, third wave feminism has tried to call into question some of the more determinative aspects of the 'social forces" argument, but not really with that much success, in my view.

We can disagree with these readings or not (our "decision" to disagree is also an effect of social forces, particularly the force of consumerism, one might say, since we're trained to privilege an illusion of personal choice in our society), but simply restating the counter-argument is not really a rebuttal. The stasis here is between two fundamentally divergent understandings of "choice" or "preference." One says that chocie is an effect of the self, while the other says any given choice has its roots in the social. Which of these you "choose" does indeed matter, since that's where you'd have to work to change things - do we work on the self or on society? Some combination of both?

[MadrasT]

38. I hear a lot of people (here and elsewhere)

who are in complete denial of this statement:

That's because feminist analysis has generally considered "choice" or "preference" (liking) an effect of pre-existing social and economic forces.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

[Tsiyu]

98. "do we work on the self or on society"

I guess all the individual selfs make up the society, so doing either or both or none will have an effect on both.

From a personal perspective, I can say that as a child, many of my interests were not in keeping with what my family thought was appropriate for a child of my gender.

Later, I would face the same attitude from some teachers. There were clearly defined gender roles in their minds, and I deviated from them.

In my case, I was stubborn and did what I wanted anyway, but weaker individuals might have been shamed by the pressure to conform. Also, funds were not available for my gender's sports that were made available for the other gender's sports programs, and I feel I suffered as a result. There was no such discrepancy when the other gender wanted to take courses society defined as strictly for my gender. They were free to take the courses I took.

Over the years I have seen vast changes in the way we accommodate those who "deviate" from gender-specific roles and activities.

To prove that one gender might be more inclined to pick "A" as an activity in no way also proves that it is not harmful to prevent the other gender from also picking "A."

Apples and oranges, in my view.

Work on self and society.

[dkf]

16. Ridiculous...is anyone going to argue that Anna Wintour isn't the epitome of feminism?

Being able to create beautiful things is a source of power, not weakness.

[Zorra]

27. This is good: "Being able to create beautiful things is a source of power, not weakness."

(Traditional Dineh Ceremonial Prayer)

In beauty I walk

With beauty before me I walk

With beauty behind me I walk

With beauty above me I walk

With beauty around me I walk

It has become beauty again

Hózhóogo naasháa doo
Shitsijí’ hózhóogo naasháa doo
Shikéédéé hózhóogo naasháa doo
Shideigi hózhóogo naasháa doo
T’áá altso shinaagóó hózhóogo naasháa doo
Hózhó náhásdlíí’
Hózhó náhásdlíí’
Hózhó náhásdlíí’
Hózhó náhásdlíí’

Today I will walk out, today everything negative will leave me

I will be as I was before, I will have a cool breeze over my body.

I will have a light body, I will be happy forever, nothing will hinder me.

I walk with beauty before me. I walk with beauty behind me.

I walk with beauty below me. I walk with beauty above me.

I walk with beauty around me. My words will be beautiful.

In beauty all day long may I walk.

Through the returning seasons, may I walk.

On the trail marked with pollen may I walk.

With dew about my feet, may I walk.

With beauty before me may I walk.

With beauty behind me may I walk.

With beauty below me may I walk.

With beauty above me may I walk.

With beauty all around me may I walk.

In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, lively, may I walk.

In old age wandering on a trail of beauty, living again, may I walk.

My words will be beautiful…

[LisaLynne]

17. I think people forget that we don't have to be "on" all the time.

Sometimes, you just want to relax and look through some stuff that doesn't require a lot of brain power or whatever. I know men and women who knit because doing something like that with your hands is almost a sort of meditation. You can clear your mind for a while. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just want you are in the mood for right then.

I read Jezebel and DU, but sometimes, I need to take a break and just look at some cat pictures.

[GoCubsGo]

18. These feminist-oriented sites don't help themselves in this matter.

I just went over to Jezebel and clicked on their "share" button. One can post their articles to Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, and a couple of others. There is no ability to share on Pinterest. Do they not want their articles posted there? Do they not know about the Pinterest share button? Do they just not care either way?

The reason MarthaStewart.com has such a big following is that her web page has a "Follow me on Pinterest" link. And, I am sure she picks up even more followers when the Pinterest users see something from her site pinned by a follower, and then repin it to their own board. I use Pinterest, and a lot of what I have collected are repins of something other people pinned.

As for Pinterest being dominated by women, maybe most men are just not into "pinning" or saving things on some Internet site. And, it's not necessarily because the subjects are "traditionally female activities". Maybe they are just wired to collect their information in a different way than women are.

[lunatica]

19. Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time

Even in sexy high heels.

[GoneOffShore]

23. Best answer yet!

You win the thread.

[smokey nj]

20. Isn't suggesting that traditionally "feminine" interests are inherently bad kind of misogynistic

in and of itself?

[gollygee]

24. It isn't suggesting they are "bad"

Just that the reason they are traditionally feminine interests is because it benefits the patriarchy for women to do them.

And I'm a stay-at-home mom who pins recipes, and a feminist, so I'm not calling anyone out or anything, just the issue isn't that anything is bad, or that the women who do it are bad. It's only that the reason these are the roles we so overwhelmingly fall into is because of the patriarchy. And that the reason men so often fall into the roles they fall into - often the sole breadwinner, with all the stress involved, etc. - is also due to the patriarchy. The ideal would be for people to naturally fall into whatever interest they have with no tendency to fall into traditional masculine or feminine roles. Obviously some women would still be interested in homemaking, and some men would still be interested in high pressure jobs, but hopefully people wouldn't have the societal push into those roles and everyone who chose them would only due to their own interests.

Anyway, I don't think it's an issue of good or bad.

[smokey nj]

41. My question was written in reference to the OP's friend feeling attacked because of her interests

which were described as "traditionally" female. People don't usually feel attacked for doing good things. For instance, I've never heard of anybody getting grief for NOT littering.

[yardwork]

55. Yes.

[Shankapotomus]

25. If a man were suddenly interested in all these things

every liberal and feminist would applaud his bravery at embracing his feminine side. But when a woman does it, some want to consider it degrading. I think it is important to separate these activities from the women who may be politically ignorant about their situation and the plight of wonen. They're not the same thing. As long as a woman is not doing these activities as some sort of submission to paternalism, that is doing it out of personal necessity and/or love rather than obedience to a gender role, I think it is important to preserve these traditional feminine pursuits.

Plus the problem is not that women pursue these activities. The problem is that MEN traditionally do not. That's where the problem lies. I think true feminism would not be one of denigrating these sometimes very important cultural and even survival activities but encouraging men and boys, whose activies have consisted in mostly adding more violence and competition to the world through their own activities, to become accustomed to slightly more feminized activities as a way of de-aggressifying males.

These feminists who think acting more like men is the answer mystify me. The typical "alpha male" personality of aggression, competition and exploitation is the problem, not a goal. Why would you want to perpetuate that personality into women? Cutthroat, entrepeneural capitalism is the problem, not necessarily the equalizing pursuit women are hoping for, unless you're looking for the equalizing platform of a boxing ring or a battlefield.

The problem is not too many "girly girls". That is an attack on women. The problem is too many "manly men." Men need to get in there and learn to cook and sew and create art and, basically validate women by learning to embrace these activities without worrying they are going to be called "not a man." In the end, these are HUMAN activities that, in reality, exist apart from all our feeble attempts to genderfy them.

I just want to add one caveat to this post: the sex thing is a totally separate issue. Women promoting themselves as sex objects for men...not an empowering activity.

[obamanut2012]

31. What in the world are you talking about

Feminists don't care if women or men bake bread, grow herbs, sew, or whatever. Feminists are also MEN, as well as women of all stripes. Both the OP article and your post seem to think only women are feminists, and then only certain women, and that they are all some type of cliched "Separatist Fem" brigade or something.

[Shankapotomus]

35. Wow, where did you get that?

I was basically totally disagreeing with the concept in the OP of it being wrong for women to pursue "girly girl" activities.

Wait, I see where you got that...I wasn't aware one way or the other what off-shoot feminist groups exist or not. I was merely responding to the implied existence of the one in the OP. Fair enough. That's great if what you say is correct.

However, when I was speaking of agressive males, I wasn't meaning all males, just the dominant cultural meme. Of course, there are feminist men.

[sufrommich]

34. "These feminists who think acting more like men is the answer mystify me."

That's because they don't exist.

[Shankapotomus]

36. Good to know!

So which is true, though? That women like that don't exist or that they are not feminists?

[sufrommich]

40. I would say any woman who ascribes behavior that

is stereotypical to being male (which is also a false construct) as superior is not a feminist and suffers from a form of self hatred.

[libodem]

57. I've seen a couple

Just two that I can think of and they acted out the male privilege part with their girlfriends, probability worse than most men I've encountered. It was irrational and irritating to watch. They should have known better than anyone.
And as you all know I don't care if I see the word bitch in print, I mostly couldn't care less but to hear one refered to the other refer to her SO as her bitch bugged the shit out of me.

Kill me now.

[get the red out]

44. It's not feminists thinking like that

It is the MEDIA PORTRAYAL of feminists; which is inaccurate. It's all part of confusing and dismissing feminism.

It is the media that says feminists are against this or that hobby or interest in order to keep eyes off the real inequalities women face. Focus on contrived small stuff and do it in a big way.

[obamanut2012]

26. no -- that is just ridiculous

The suggestion from buzzfeed is just ridiculous and sexist in itself: that there are "traditional" womanly arts that men can't and aren't allowed to do, and that cooking or whatever means a woman isn't a feminist.

[Starry Messenger]

30. Dumb article.

None of the boards I follow really pin stuff like that. But who would care anyway? It isn't any different than any other place on the internet where you can put things that interest you and your friends. Saying that any of those things is "too girly" is a serious misunderstanding of feminism.

[JaneyVee]

32. Crap. Now I'm about to head over to BuzzFeed homepage and lose 3 hrs of my life.

Good thing I'm off today.

[wtmusic]

59. LOL

[sufrommich]

33. Well, I'm pretty sure I'm a feminist and I've been on Pinterest

since you had to have an invitation to post there.Pinterest is whatever you want it to be,personally mine is mostly mid century modern design and graphics,interior decorating and art.There are a lot of artist there who also sell their wares on sites like Etsy. This argument that a feminist would attack another feminist for scrap booking and beading seems contrived and stereotypical of "the angry,dour feminist". There is room in life for both Jezebel and Pinterest,one does not negate the other.

[Proles]

39. I work in marketing at a corporation, and one of the social media sites we use is pinterest.

It's definitely a women dominated site (out of all the followers we have, probably no more than 10% are men), and it's certainly plastered with all sorts of fashions, decor, etc. Our company fits somewhat, since we're in hospitality.

But I don't see what the big deal is. Women are women, and men are men. We aren't the same, physically and mentally. Therefore, barring some exceptions, each gender has it's own distinct interests. Its biological. Women will be interested in recipes and clothing, men in things like sports and video games.

Now, I'm an egalitarian (not a feminist or masculinist), so obviously men and women should be treated equally and be given equal opportunities. But I don't see the point in getting upset over thousands of years of evolution hardwired in our brains.

[MadrasT]

46. No it is not "biological". "Genders" do not have interests.

People have interests.

It is not evolution and it is most certainly not "hardwired" because of our sex parts.

[liberal_at_heart]

62. are you serious?

[LanternWaste]

84. You of course have objective and valid examples not needing any additional qualifiers, yes?

"each gender has it's own distinct interests..."

You of course have objective and valid examples not needing any additional qualifiers, yes?

[Proles]

111. I'm not exactly clear what you're trying to say, but to the other posters, yes I'm serious.

I obviously mean no offense by it. But, I mean, if women choose to post pictures of fashions or recipes, why is that a problem? Obviously it's what they're interested in as individuals, even if it's considered a gender stereotype. Why should women be made to feel guilty about those things?

And yes, there is an element of biology to many gender interests...

[Xyzse]

42. Can I say...

As a heterosexual male... that I am loving the Pinterest site?
I just found out about it recently, and some of the ideas are just plain awesome.

I don't see how learning Do it Yourself activities as a threat to Feminism or my Masculinity. In my view, that is just being insecure about oneself.

So you learned knitting and sewing. Those two activities are useful. I've ripped some clothes before and had to fix them on the fly. It is a pretty nifty skill.

Also, as an aside: If and when the Zombie Apocalypse happens, I want to know a bunch of basic skills like cooking, darning, sewing, canning and other things like that. I already have those as well as wood working, trap making, and others.

[TwilightGardener]

43. Turns out, women like the same stuff on the internet

that they buy magazines for. We weren't being fed the content, they were responding to our wishes. I like Martha Stewart, and Country Living, and Cook's Illustrated, and Sunset, and Houzz, and have looked at Pinterest (not really gotten into it yet, though). Oh well, I'm a typical vain and shallow woman, I care about how my house and garden look. My husband has been reading Men's Health for 20 years, always looking for new exercise tips, muscle-building and diet advice, but no one worries about THAT. Men are just as vain and shallow in their own way.

[get the red out]

47. "Tradition" is non-individual

I love to knit and cook, was never into kids and don't have any by choice, I work but not at some high powered career, am married but didn't get married until my late 30's. I've not gotten into Pinterest yet but am on a knitting social web site. My husband isn't into social media at all but likes to watch Martha Stewart and enjoys decorating the house (which is not my thing).

I consider myself a "feminist".

My sister is a professional with a husband (who she met in college and married just after graduation) and two kids, likes to cook and is one of those people who can make things all spiffy-cute, can always pick the BEST greeting cards, and likes Pinterest. Her husband is an outdoors type but thankfully dresses his deer outside during hunting season (with the help of his young daughters who also are into American Girl Dolls, pink everything, taking care of the chickens on their farm, and one is a young math whiz).

My Sister considers herself a "feminist" also.

People are individuals.

[bettyellen]

48. all the knitters I know are political too. the devaluation of design and crafts is because of

women's lower status, not the other way around. There's nothing wrong with making the world a more beautiful or well fed place.

[union_maid]

52. What a very good point

I never, ever thought about it that way. Don't know why, because now that you point it out, it's obvious.

I'd also like to point out that what the average guy is interested in is not all that high minded either. Home improvement, sports and cars come to mind. And yes, lots of women are into all those things, too. I'm just saying that just because guys aren't pinning recipes doesn't mean they're debating the great issues of the day somewhere.

[bettyellen]

63. just like when they say women "gravitate towards low paying jobs" like teaching and never

think about the big picture- how fucked up it is to devalue that all important work.

And yeah, man use Tumbler instead and post pics of gals in bikinis, booze, more cleavage and maybe cars.

[Horse with no Name]

49. Pinterest is electronic hoarding

and that is okay. It is easier for me to pin stuff to electronic boards than to clip crap out of magazines and stuff in into drawers.

I am not a "girly girl"...but I love to cook and adore a place to keep recipes without having to print and store.



You will find animal care, green products, recycling ideas, etc on my boards. Hardly an attack on feminism.

[sufrommich]

75. "Pinterest is electronic hoarding"

That is the most perfect explanation of Pinterest I've seen. I would add "personal dream catalog" to that too,my "houses I want to live in" board is filled with houses I would have to win the lottery to live in.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

50. Oh Jesus Christ... Do people actually sit around and try to twist things into controversy?

There are hobbies and interests that men statistically enjoy more than women and vice versa.

It's not some big conspiracy to keep people in line with their gender roles.

And I say this as a non-traditional heterosexual male that has basically nothing in common with most men.

[Proles]

113. +1 /nt

[seabeyond]

51. stupid all around. why in the world would your smart friend think no knitting for feminist? nt

[DirkGently]

53. I thought an element of radical feminism was that it's the devaluation

of that which is designated "feminine" that was the (or part of the) problem. Not whether women heal or mend or feed, but whether we value healing and mending and feeding.

Apart from the more obvious issue of freedom being about self-determination, of course.

[liberal_at_heart]

58. the terms traditional feminine and feminism are misleading

They stick women and men into gender categories that just don't exist anymore. Both women and men are artistic. Both women and men fight for the equal treatment of women. My daughter is the strong independent woman she is today because my husband taught her to be strong and stand up for herself. Although I consider myself a feminist in theory I'm not that great at it in practice. I've had self esteem issues all my life. I've had depression and anxiety all my life. These things hold me back in the things I want to pursue and have also held me back in teaching my daughter to be strong. My daughter is confident in who she is. She is a feminist and a damn good artist. There was a time in my husband's life when he crocheted for stress relief. He later took up knot tying as a way to relieve stress but I have no doubt he would crochet again if he got the inclination. He also enjoys yoga for stress relief. My husband is the disciplinarian and as my daughter takes after him will no doubt be the disciplinarian in her family when she grows up. My son takes after me. He told us last week he wanted to be the kind of parent who tries to be more understanding and sensitive when a child makes a mistake instead of being the disciplinarian. I have always hated cooking. I am not a good housekeeper. I am messy. And I have never been good at crafts or games for that matter. I did not bake cookies or make crafts or play pretend with my kids. I tried sometimes for their benefit, but was just never good at any of it. As one person said in an earlier post we are all individuals. We can no longer be pigeon holed into gender roles.

[gollygee]

68. I think that's what the word "traditional" is meant to say

That it's what was expected traditionally, over the past few generations. It is still somewhat expected today, especially in some communities, but not as much now as was traditionally.

[HockeyMom]

61. 4 year olds in Head Start Class

It really was amazing what "centers" these kids picked. Gender oriented? Not at ALL! The boys and the girls routinely went to all of them. Incidentally, these were poor minority kids (Mexican and Haitian mostly). The boys would put on aprons and pretend to cook, wash dishes, mop, rock and diaper the babies. The girls would put on police uniforms, firefighters hats, run around chasing criminals, load the trucks, etc. Then they would all switch their centers, and gender roles. All of them liked both these activities because none of the staff encouraged the play activity by gender roles.

My Great-Grandpa (beginning of 20th century) was a chief. My Grandpa did all the cooking in the house, as did my Dad when I was growing up. Dad LIKED cooking and would buy all the cookbooks. Since Dad was a longshoreman and got home from work before Mom did, he not only cooked, he did most of the cleaning too. This was back in the 50s. Personally, I love to cook but maybe the cooking thing is more genetic than gender related?

My husband and I watch Food Network together. When I am in NY at my daughter's, I sit and watch it together with my son-in-law. He writes down the recipes and does most of the cooking. My daughter just isn't interested in it. So what?

Whatever "turns you on" as we used to say back in the day.

[gollygee]

69. My daughter (3) was just yesterday told by a 4-year-old boy

that she can't like Spiderman because she's a girl. And my daughter said that she does like Spiderman, and then he said that she couldn't dress up like him on Halloween because it's a boy costume. And she said she could if she wanted, and he got angry and wanted me to correct her.

So SOME kids are still picking up these traditional gender roles and rules very strongly, but hopefully fewer and to less of an extent as time goes by.

The heavy gender marketing of toys can't be helping though.

[HockeyMom]

99. Maybe the difference is POOR KIDS

where in their families they are all expected to pitch in regardless of gender sterotypes. One 4 year old boy had 4 older brothers and NO sisters. There weren't any girls in the family to do "female work". He accepted female chores as a given. The bigger issue was functioning as as FAMILY UNIT, so gender issues went out the door.

[bettyellen]

64. LOL, where is this "male dominated" site filled w/ "heavy heady stuff like economic and social

equity?'
Any general site where mostly men post pics is 50% or more tits and ass. Who does the author think they are fooling?

[Taverner]

70. For the life of me, I still have no idea what Pintrest is about...

It makes no sense...pictures of stock pictures?

[Lex]

72. Not difficult. It's a bulletin board online.

That's all.

[Taverner]

74. How is it different than any other BB?

And why does everyone's page have stock photos?

[gollygee]

78. It's like if you had a bunch of magazines you were going through

and you saw a recipe you liked. IRL you might cut out the recipe and pin it up on a literal bulletin board. So this is the same idea. "Oh, I like that recipe. Let me pin it so I can find it later."

[Taverner]

79. Ahhhh OK that makes sense

Thanks

[Lex]

91. It's not all stock photos. It's the photo on the page you "tack"

to your board, so sometimes it's stock and sometimes (on a blog for instance) it's the photo on that page that the blogger may've taken himself.

It's mildly entertaining but nothing all that important, like most boards.

[cbdo2007]

73. Many women enjoy traditionally feminine activities....

so what's the big deal??

[dballance]

80. I think the proper question is why do we have to label...

activities like knitting, beading, sewing, cooking and other "traditionally female activities" as feminine? Why aren't they just human activities? We have some wonderful male chefs and clothes designers. We have some great female CEOs and politicians and I worked with female "meter men" and "line men" at a power company who were just as good as any male. I've also worked with some males who I'd never want to be around if they had a nail-gun in their hand.

So do what you want. Knit, bead, scrapbook, build houses, build bridges, run the country, run a major corporation. I don't care whether you are male or female.

But don't let yourself be defined by terms like feminine or feminist. Just be the best human you can be.

[Matariki]

81. This is the stupidest article on women's issues I've seen in a long time

The 'sexism' and idea that those things are 'traditional feminine interests' is just in the narrow mind of the author of that tripe.

For example: my boyfriend and a number of male friends of mine collect home decor images on Pinterest. My boyfriend's father is a huge 'foodie' who collects recipes and wine reviews.

Stupid, shit stirring article.

[tallahasseedem]

97. I totally agree.

In fact, my husband has one. He cooks the majority of the meals in our household and will check out his board to see what recipes I have pinned on there to help him plan the meals. We have found several incredible recipes for us and the kids, DIY home ideas, etc. This idea that it is killing feminism is ridiculous.

[Matariki]

85. Actually, I think 'feminism' has freed men to persue whatever interests them

even if those interests were once thought to be 'feminine'.

Like I've mentioned, I know a LOT of men who like to cook, have an interest in interior design, who do crafts like knitting and sewing.

[wickerwoman]

88. Being a feminist means recognising that cooking, etc. isn't a "feminine" interest.

It's a human interest that Western cultural conditioning has associated with women.

I'm sure you can find cultures where men do decorative arts and keep journals. How are Lewis and Clark's journals that different from "scrapbooking"? Why should woodcarving or scrimshaw or tattooing be "male" while knitting and gardening and doing watercolours be "female"? Many "women's interests" (like weaving, pottery, etc) used to be professions that were primarily "male".

Also, I think there's a clear distinction between hobbies and occupations, which everyone should be able to enjoy without having their feminist creds examined, and "interests" like dieting and make-up and fashion which are the result of culturally imposed patriarchal standards of beauty. So I don't think it's sad for a feminist to be into knitting or home decorating but I do think a"feminist" who spends hours every day talking about hair and make-up and shopping maybe needs to a look a bit deeper at what is driving that interest.

On edit: I do recognise the artist aspects of make-up and fashion and I think that's fine. My friend's daughter is into movie make-up and World of Wearable Art, etc. and I think that's totally compatible with feminism. I don't think that's the kind of fashion that the original article is talking about though.

[LadyHawkAZ]

93. The point of feminism is not to end all knitting and baking

The point of feminism is to make sure they're not a woman's only option.

[Matariki]

110. +1000

Not only that, but challenging the idea that particular activities belong to one gender or another is just as valuable for men as it is for women. And ESPECIALLY good for girls, boys, and young men and women.

[Kalidurga]

94. I object to the entire notion that...

What women are interested in are "soft" subjects and what men are interested in is what men are interested in.

All of my girls are girly girls. And even though I am not a girly girl and never have been I never told them they shouldn't pursue their interests in fashion, decorating, or collecting recipes. I did rough house with them and do things with them that some would say are masculine things, for the most part they didn't object. I did object quite a bit when they tried make overs and stuff on me. But, I tolerated that to a degree as well not wanting to hurt their feelings too much. But, I am not going to be one of those put on make up everyday persons. I did dress up some for my youngest daughters graduation recently and I own some dresses. But, it would never occur to me to blast a woman for having a closet full of dresses and no pants or jeans or whatever or blast a woman for being interested in cooking. That is what is degrading to women. Blasting them for whatever it is that they are interested in. We don't do this to men so much unless they are viewed as being too girly, I haven't done this. But, I have been out and about so to speak and men really can't do things that look girly without some kind of snide comment from somewhere. We really just need to lay off of people. Let people do whatever it is they want to do, unless it is violent or is likely to hurt them.

Also, anyone who has ever dieted knows that dieting is not for sissies.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

96. Well, shit, I just made a bow for the Christmas wreath on my front door...

but I'll balance it out tomorrow, I suppose, by helping to demolish a screened porch.

I'm so confused.

Or not.

[Skittles]

101. what a bunch of fucking hogwash

feminism is not about what is or isn't "girly girly" - it's about respect and equality

[Jackpine Radical]

103. People should feel OK to follow their interests regardless of stereotypes.

Half the problem seems to be that "traditional feminine" interests and activities are devalued because of their association with women. The solution isn't to make women turn to more "masculine" pursuits, but to get rid of the deep-rooted, even unconscious sexism that underlies the devaluing.

Different doesn't mean inferior.

I do woodworking, hunt, fish, and all that stuff, and nobody picks on me because I'm doing stuff that's too stereotypically masculine, so why should anyone pick on a woman who enjoys cooking or whatever?

My wife is maybe the smartest person I know, with a huge fund of knowledge and a track record of having engaged the world quite successfully, bringing social changes for the better in an earlier career as an urban/regional planner. She moved on from that career to become a brilliant psychotherapist.

And she's addicted to trashy romance novels. But, hey, I read trashy Westerns, so what the hell? Why should people look down their noses at her recreations but approve mine? The things I do in my spare time are no more valuable to the world than what she does--less so, for the most part, if the truth be told.

Equality will have arrived when people are free to do what they damn well please, as long as it's harmless, regardless of gender stereotyping.

[phleshdef]

107. Newsflash, a lot of women geniunely LIKE cooking, fashion, home decor and fitness.

Theres are point where feminism ceases to be feminism and begins to become silly, ignorant bullshit... like when it suggests women are degrading themselves by entertaining things they are geniunely interested in because its not feminist enough. Whoever wrote this article needs to get a fucking life.

[apocalypsehow]

108. My girlfriend does that Pininterest thing, and it doesn't look much different to me than Facebook.

I find the notion of some board on the internet "killing feminism" to be an absurd one.

[Honeycombe8]

112. Does Field & Stream stereotype men and corner them into traditional, non-parenting type roles?

No.

I like reading about home decor and fashion. I'm also a feminist from way back. Liking my environment to be visually appealing doesn't mean I want to be paid less for doing my job than a man or that I don't also read about politics or care about current events.

I'm wondering if that article is an ad for that website.

[Honeycombe8]

114. Ellen Degeneres likes fashion, home decor, does Cover Girl ads, and had cosmetic surgery.

Does that make her less gay, since I think she's the "guy" in her relationship?

I love her Cover Girl ads, BTW. Very funny. And she looks great!

[Safetykitten]

116. Really, is this not a real reach?

It really is kind of a subtle sexism to even ask this type of question.