The Democratic party has moved rightward long before Charlie Crist joined it.

[madfloridian]

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2012, 10:17 PM - Edit history (2)

A major Republican, former Florida governor, outspoken person against his own GOP...has joined the national Democratic Party. Yet many don't welcome him.

Just for a practical moment, here is a recent poll pitting Crist against Rick Scott.

Polling Charlie Crist against Rick Scott



Charlie Crist had nothing to do with that "rightward movement" of the Democrats. Can you say DLC, Third Way think tanks and gullible leaders who feared losing campaign funds?

In fact a major Democrat said years ago that the intellectual leveraged buyout of the party was nearly complete.

What we've done in the Democratic Party," explains institute Vice President Rob Shapiro, a Clinton economic adviser, "is an intellectual leveraged buyout." The DLC, presumably, is acting as arbitrageur, selling off unprofitable mind-sets to produce a lean and efficient philosophy for the "New Democrat," as DLCers call their slick bimonthly magazine.

The DLC morphed into the Third Way, and the rightward movement continues today.

One thing that won't be forgotten about Crist's time as governor is that he stood up for teachers when even our Democrats were not doing so. I disagreed with much of what he allowed to happen during his governorship, but his veto of SB6 was great.

Charlie Crist vetoed SB6. That bill that would have put bipartisan policies in place in Florida education....such as eliminating tenure and giving us merit pay. These were policies of the education "reformers" and included major Democratic leaders.

Calling it "significantly flawed," Crist decried Senate Bill 6, which would link teacher pay to student test scores and eliminate tenure for all new hires

" Under the bill, half of a teacher's evaluation would depend on students' learning gains. Good gains would equal positive evaluations and pay raises, which teachers said failed to factor the work that doesn't show up on tests — and ignores other forces that affect kids.

Tenure would have been out of the question for new teachers, which Crist highlighted in his problems with the bill. "

The Rick Scott Republicans with Scott's blessing quickly installed such education policies.

Now there is no more tenure in Florida, and merit pay rules supreme. And Arne Duncan approves.

There is no Democrat waiting in the wings in FL who is very much to the left of Crist.

We worked on Bill McBride's Democratic campaign against Jeb Bush in 2002. It was pathetic how top down it was. Republicans worked with us against Jeb, but McBride refused to take any important stances. We and our co-workers on the campaign called and pleaded, but it was like we didn't exist.

The campaign of his wife, Alex Sink, against Rick Scott was very much as bland as his was against Jeb.

I am having trouble understanding why so many are not welcoming Charlie Crist to the Democratic Party. I don't see any disadvantage to it.

The party's turn to the right began years ago. Charlie Crist had nothing to do with that.

Update edit 9:05 pm. I found a poll comparing Sink, Crist and others in the 2014 primary, at that time assuming Crist would change parties. This is interesting.

Poll of 2014 Democratic primary: Charlie Crist 61%, Alex Sink 25%

The first Florida-based poll conducted since the close of the Democratic National Convention shows former governor Charlie Crist lapping the prospective field of Democratic candidates eyeing the 2014 gubernatorial race.

Crist is the top choice of 61% of likely Democratic voters, followed by former Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink with 25% support. Orlando mayor Buddy Dyer comes in at 7%, state Senator Nan Rich at 3.5% and Florida Democratic Party chair Rod Smith at 3.4%.Sen. Rich is the only candidate officially running for governor. Dyer and Sink have said they will make a decision about whether to run after the presidential election. Crist has drawn extensive speculation that he intends to run for governor as a Democrat in 2014.

These new poll numbers will certainly intensify the speculation.

Bite off our noses or say welcome Charlie?

Crossposted at Twitter

[dsc]

1. Do you have any idea what other people's poll numbers are?

I don't but I don't live there. Scott is supposedly quite unpopular so I figure many Dems should have good numbers against him. Also I have to admit I do have a problem with Crist on gay issues.

[madfloridian]

2. The only one I have seen mentioned so far is Alex Sink.

And what does it say that she could not beat Rick Scott?

She has spoken of running again, but I don't think there is much enthusiasm about it.

[dsc]

4. His numbers have gone down since she lost

and let's be fair, 2010 was a terrible year for the Democrats. She came closer in her race than many incumbent Democrats came in theirs. I would want to see her numbers now before dismissing her out of hand. Governor elect McCrory can tell you how long four years can be in politics. (sadly our state went the other way)

[madfloridian]

8. That poll is from May 2012.

If I see Sink's polling I will let you know.

This poll:

"The Florida Opinion Research poll, which was taken between May 23-25, has a margin of error of 3.46 percent"

[madfloridian]

43. Just added a poll to the OP

[Bluenorthwest]

3. Four years ago, Crist said Sarah Palin was more qualified to be President than Obama

and he stood on stages with her chanting 'Drill here, drill now'. He said Palin was qualified to be President of the United States on TV to a national audience. It was for many of us, our introduction to the man.
But aside from Charlie, it is nice to see you....

[AnotherMcIntosh]

6. .

[Fumesucker]

5. It's good to know where you really stand in life

In that respect I can see Crist joining the Democratic party as a positive thing, lets us know what the Dems are really about.

[Starry Messenger]

7. Thank you for putting this up as an OP.

If he can move on education, I think he's moveable in other areas.

[madfloridian]

10. I think so.

For years the state and national parties have failed to support candidates who ran as more liberal or progressive. Now there is a lack of people to choose from.

I think many FL politicians of both parties ran so as not to offend the Tea Party types. I hope that changes. I think maybe some will show more courage soon.

[JVS]

9. Crist was a shitty governor, Scott is a shitty governor, Florida will continue to have shitty...

government and it will never change unless real democrats get back in charge.

Also, to argue there is no connection between Crist and the rightward shift in the party is ridiculous. He is both a result of it and a continuation of it. That's two connections.

[madfloridian]

11. Crist did not cause the rightward drift of the Democratic party. That happened years ago.

That quote in the OP from Shapiro is from the 90s.

[JVS]

12. You know what a strawman is, so don't use them.

[Iggy]

13. Facts Aren't Strawmen...

it's obvious to anyone paying attention: Bill Clinton, Rahm Emanuel, Terry McAuliffe and a few others moved the democratic party significantly to the right in order to win reelection in 1996.

They coopted several planks of Gingrich's hideous "Contract for America" platform, they began ardently kissing corporate arse, raised tons of corporate money, and more or less threw the traditional base of the democratic party- Labor and the poor-- under the bus in order to win. It shouldn't be necessary to remind you of Rahmbo's "F*** the union" proclamation when he was part of Obama's staff.

the "democratic party" has been a farce since this happened-- they more or less agree with/adhere to numerous GOP policy issues.

[JVS]

20. See 19

[madfloridian]

21. They even admitted they were doing it.

""Simon Rosenberg, the former field director for the DLC who directs the New Democrat Network, a spin-off political action committee, says, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party. In that way," he adds, "they are ideologically freed, frankly, from taking positions that make it difficult for Democrats to win."

Freed from positions that make it hard for Democrats to win

[Iggy]

57. JUST WIN, BABY!!!!

good post, totally reinforces what happened to and what is going on now with the "democratic party".

I suspect the GOP would have won the POTUS election they just lost had they run a more moderate candidate who wasn't an elitist multi-millionaire tax evader.

[TheKentuckian]

33. Still an argument not being made and it is beyond goofy to keep punching at a shadow

No one anywhere has presented an argument that Charlie Crist is the alpha and the omega of the party's rightward shift but rather evidence and continuation of such, a very different argument.

An argument was framed that doesn't exist because the actual argument is not refutable. The motivation for this I cannot speak to other than to speculate, which I'm not inclined to do today. There are few if any folks on the internet that I have more respect for than Madflo but that doesn't make the argument any more substantial.
There may well be merits for Crist but I see no value in the chosen frame here, I think a straight forward and honest presentation of the merits is hell of a lot a better case than this dance.

If we keep taking what they give us, folks like Crist will soon be the left of Democratic representation spectrum save in the bluist of the blue areas, used to coral the left as much as the party can tolerate.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

15. Do you even know what "strawman" means?

[JVS]

19. When Madfloridian argues against an argument that nobody made, that's a strawman.

When Madfloridian argues that Charlie Crist is not responsible for the rightward shift of the party in the 90s, she isn't really addressing the point but setting up a false and easy to refute argument. Crist didn't have much sway over the direction of the party then. Since critics of Crist don't claim that he did that in the 90s, but rather they complain that he is doing it now (see Madhound's good OP on it), such an argument is attacking a strawman.

[madfloridian]

22. There is a whole thread making the argument.

[JVS]

23. Where? And what about the argument that Crist contributes to an ongoing shift toward the right?

[madfloridian]

26. It's in the Greatest Threads front page. Most here agree with you.

The blame Charlie Crist crowd for the state of the party is the popular view. I just don't agree. I think we did it to ourselves.

[JVS]

29. Do you mean madhound's thread?

Yeah, whatever. Crist didn't move the party to the right in the 90s, you're right about that. But he will do so in the future if Florida's Democrats are stupid enough to back him in the future. You guys need a better alternative than far-right and medium-right.

[madfloridian]

31. Hey, I've been saying that for years.

"You guys need a better alternative than far-right and medium-right."

[JVS]

34. So why are you seemingly positive about Crist. One would think you'd see this with misgivings...

to say the least. You can't be pleased that the party leadership looks poised to prevent any non-RW representation for your state.

[madfloridian]

37. The party prevents progressive Dems from running in FL.

You have it turned around.

I am positive about Crist joining the party because he is probably the only one that can beat Rick Scott. The Tea Party is very strong and powerful here.

[Iggy]

25. It Appears You Don't Know

This statement:

"Crist did not cause the rightward drift of the Democratic party. That happened years ago".

is not a straw man... it's a fact.

what else are you referring to as being a "straw man"???

[TheKentuckian]

35. The statement is a fact but no one argues to the contrary, which means it is a strawman.

Where has anyone stated that Charlie Crist began the movement to the right of the Democratic party?

Does he make a case that it continues to the present? Yup.

Will his presence maintain or increase that movement? I think a fair case can be made for that too and it isn't personal to Charlie Crist but to the reality of if you welcome right wingers in with open arms and unrepentant because the opposition also is running to the right as quick as they can that their influence will keep the movement that no one claims to want going full steam ahead.

[madfloridian]

36. His OP does so say that Crist is causing a pull to the right.

"So Crist decided to become a Democrat, like so many other moderate Republicans. A man who has run as anti-gay marriage, anti-public education, hard on crime, expand the death penalty, lower tax rates and endorsed by the NRA is bringing his views with him into the Democratic party, and will probably go ahead and run on those views as he seeks office. Thus, the party gets dragged to the right."

What is so bad about a moderate Republican joining our party?

[TheKentuckian]

40. It sure adds fuel to the direction, it is not the beginning. The gas that turned the engine over

isn't the same gas that moves the car down the road on mile 255 of the trip but the car still keeps going and each drop moves it further on down the line.

Anyone can join any party they want, that does not mean I have to welcome them or fail to reject them because I don't support what they represent. Hell, I don't accept all that have had a (D) next to their name for all time either.

TeaPubliKlans changing registration because they are no longer viable in an outright Bircher party isn't beneficial in my eyes and yes, I believe unreformed Reaganites changing jerseys drags the party right and I think you understand this too but have a soft spot because we are talking a guy that protected you ox better than many with a (D) next to their name, fuck it if he gored another's.

Also, moderate my ass. Dude is a straight up Reaganite that became Governor on a Bush's coattails that looks good mostly based on that even Democrats have taken a radical position on education and to fair a long history of not being a racist (though he has participated in his share of shenanigans that disenfranchise and hold down minorities simply by being a TeaPubliKlan and utilizing their game plan if nothing else).

[JVS]

51. Godfather, you understand everything!

[sabrina 1]

52. MF is correct, the rightward shift of the Dem Party began long before Crist. I would

agree if you had made the point that because of that, someone like Crist now looks pretty moderate, and that is the problem. However, I do remember him standing up for teachers when our Party refused to do so.

The Third Way is in control of the Dem Party now and it's much more difficult to get any Progressive elected since the Party generally backs the more Conservative candidates in the primaries.

Now that we are more informed as to what happened, we can begin doing something about it. Meantime, if there is no Progressive Dem who can beat Scott, then it makes sense to support Crist for that job.

I wish he had remained an Independent, but I guess he needs a big party behind him if he is to have any chance of beating Scott. I'm not happy about this, but this is where we are thanks to the infiltration of the Party by the DLC/Third Way over the past several decades.

[loyalsister]

14. Is it the party or the population that moved?

Centrist Democrats would not have gotten elected unless there were right leaning Democrats to vote for them. As painful as it is, we are in the minority. Rolling out polls about some issue where people agree with us does not make the population more liberal as some like to think. The politicians and parties have been responding to the population not the other way around.

[madfloridian]

16. It's the old "lesser of two evils" kind of choice.

At the old DU I often wrote about how many times the national party committees starved the campaigns of more progressive candidates. In our state I know we have not been given the choices we should have had.

I think our country is more liberal than ever, but the people really don't have much of a voice. The big media and party leaders get the voice, and most of them them are pushing right wing values.

[loyalsister]

38. Maybe in your neck of the woods

But people in my state are CONSERVATIVE. Claire McCaskill is liberal in MO if that tells you anything.

[dflprincess]

53. The same happened in Minnesota in 2006 when the state & national party

along with the DSCC shoved Amy Klobuchar down our throats (the state party breaking its own rules by supporting a candidate before there was an endorsement at the state convention) over a more progressive candidate.

No way would the people running the DFL these days let another Wellstone get past them.

[madfloridian]

54. The DCCC turned the union against a candidate, and dried up his funding.

"David Lutrin, a school teacher, union activist and staunch supporter of immediate withdrawal from Iraq, decided to run against Foley before Mahoney entered the race. After Mahoney declared his candidacy, Lutrin was contacted by field organizers for the DCCC who asked him to drop out and let Mahoney run unopposed.

Lutrin said that he also met personally with Mahoney. During a three- hour breakfast meeting, Mahoney offered Lutrin a higher-paying job if he agreed to drop out of the primary. "Mahoney tried to get me to run in a different district. He offered me a job at one of his non-profit organizations where he said that I would make more than I was making as a teacher. He said I could campaign full time while working at his non-profit as long as I agreed to drop out of the race," Lutrin said. Lutrin declined the job offer.

According to Lutrin, when he refused to step aside, the DCCC shored up local political support for Mahoney. The local AFL-CIO chapter, of which Lutrin was a member, came out with an early endorsement of Mahoney's campaign. According to Lutrin, the union told him that "they would like to back a fellow union brother, but Mahoney has more money and more political support from the party." Lutrin eventually dropped out of the race when the local teachers' union decided to support Mahoney."

Mahoney vs Lutrin....what was done in FL 16th by Rahm and Thurman.

The DCCC had the money, Mahoney had the money as a millionaire businessman...to "persuade" the unions to go along. That is terribly upsetting to me. The teachers' union and the AFL-CIO went along with Rahm and Karen and endorsed a Republican who turned Democrat to run.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

17. Not true.

The people simply have a choice between conservative and more conservative. That isn't the people's doing. That's the result of money in politics.

[madfloridian]

18. Well said.

[MrSlayer]

24. The political center ONLY moves right.

Never left, only right, always. When this country foolishly allowed the Reaganites to take over, they cut their own throats willingly and happily. We've been in a spiral of destruction ever since. It's disgraceful and disgusting and there is nothing we can do about it now. It's all over, the bad guys won.

[AndyTiedye]

39. The Pendulum Only Moves in One Direction

[patrice]

27. This phase started by committing to MIC with the nomination of Harry Truman:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021944818#post13

[quaker bill]

28. I agree

Charlie Crist would seem well to the right of the Dems in CA or NY. But in FL, he will fit in just fine. I would love to see a candidate to his left, but I honestly cannot think of anyone in FL politics capable of running for statewide office that would be to his left in any measurable sense. Dems do have a very long way to go in FL.

Chances are that even if we take the Gov. seat in 2014, the FL house and FL Senate will remain repug majority. Gerrymandering here is profound. At least some of the really wacky stuff they produce could get vetoed. Dems have managed to gain enough seats to now prevent overrides.

Run Charley run.

[madfloridian]

56. Good post.

Good point about his fitting right into the FL party. Considering those polls for now, we need him.

I don't understand the anger at his joining the party. I can't think of a downside to it, really.

[quaker bill]

59. There isn't one

He is just one guy and the only place he might take the party is to the Governor's mansion. Given a potted ficus would do a less harmful job as Gov. than Scott, I do not see a problem.

[Ash_F]

30. I have co-workers who vote straight-ticket Republican every time...

..that don't say stuff as unabashedly right-wingnuty as what I see posted here by DUers every day.






The price of victory?

[JVS]

32. Being a poster at DU is hardly a guarantee against RW-nuttery.

[JoePhilly]

41. Liberals should quit the Democratic party and become Republicans.

If we all did that, we'd take over the GOP, and then we could claim that the country is center LEFT.

Its simple!!!

The DLC folks would still be Dems, but the liberals would be GOP ... and the GOP would be totally screwed.

right?

[madfloridian]

42. There you go.

Simple solution.

[JoePhilly]

44. I'm just here to help the ball club, and the good lord willing, things will work out.

[morningfog]

45. Except that fantasy is logically inconsistent with reality.

[JoePhilly]

46. But that's what the Repubicans are doing to us.

Slowly, they join us, and move us to the right.

So maybe, we should do the same thing, but do it in one swift move.

They'd never see it coming.

The new GOP and the old Democratic party would agree on a ton of things, and the old GOP would be an angry but inconsequential voice in the new GOP.

Two parties that are more left than right.

[madfloridian]

47. In the 90s FL Dems starting becoming Republicans.

I remember being stunned when Charles Canady switched over, then more and more joined the GOP. They were changing in part because of Clinton's affair.

So I guess in comes in cycles.

[morningfog]

49. I don't know if you are trying to be sarcatic.

I don't see the repubs doing that to us. I see the Democratic Party moving to the right at the same time the republican party radicalized to the far right. Maybe this will be seen as the high water mark of the rightward swing of the "center." Maybe this signals that the center is beginning to move towards the left.

[Zorra]

48. I think he's bad news. I don't trust him as far as I can spit. His views on

human rights and choice change according to whatever stance he feels he needs to adopt to get elected.

I see him as a dangerous double-minded opportunist.

Yeh, it's true the party shifted to the right long ago, but we now appear to be swinging to the left again, and I don't believe Chuck fits in as a part of this change.

Yay, he changed parties. Maybe he'll even vote for a Democrat or two someday.

[Baitball Blogger]

50. Do you support Crist over a valid Democratic candidate?

If so, how do we resolve the real problem that afflicts Florida Democrats and Crist-type Republicans who are too attached to the Florida old guard ways? Their social networking is what has undermined Florida.

[madfloridian]

55. I will support the Democrat who stands the best chance of beating Scott.

Our state can not survive another Scott term.

Crist is a Democrat now.

[Baitball Blogger]

58. I think anyone will be able to beat Scott.

[madfloridian]

60. We thought that in 2010.

[Baitball Blogger]

61. Scott didn't have a track record.

He has one now.

[madfloridian]

62. Consensus appears to be to bite off our noses...

rather than welcome him.

I saw Alex Sink on TV this morning, and she did not come across very pleasantly. She looked angry and cross but determined. I still do not think she can beat Scott. She is like her husband, Bill, and fearful of speaking out.

I don't like the rightward movement of the party, and it is obvious from my education posts that I think Obama is dead wrong in that area.

But the polls above in the OP are pretty telling about the respect for Crist from Democrats and independents in this state.