Human Rights Watch: Pager Attack is "Unlawfully Indiscriminate"

[onandup]

The following quote can be attributed to Lama Fakih, Middle East and North Africa Director at Human Rights Watch:

“Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. A prompt and impartial investigation into the attacks should be urgently conducted.”

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers-harmed-hezbollah-civilians

[Skittles]

1. LOL

like they care

REVENGE IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS!

[Cha]

2. Oh Israel should just let Hezballa Bomb them for

for months without RETALITATION.

WTF DO YOU THINK HEZBALLA HAS BEEN DOING? "REVENGE"!

NO. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

[Igel]

4. These were booby traps?

A booby trap is usually an attractive thing that attracts any random passer by or placed in a position that harms random passers by.

These were "booby traps" issued by members of God's Party to its members to facilitate private communication among its members. It may have hit bystanders, but if they account for more than 10% of the victims of anything more than ringing in the ears or being surprised, I'd be surprised.

If anything, it made God's Partiers themselves into booby traps ... To the extent that, fully dressed, they were attractive to by-standers.

Imagine having exploding uniforms handed out. At some point a spouse or kid might be near one when they all went 'splody, but it's fairly well targeted.

But they miss the plot. First pagers, then walkie-talkies. Sounds like they're disabling the internal com network and forcing 'internal' communications to use more common carriers.

Can't help but wonder if the battlefield's being prepped. Or if it's just a psy-op to keep the possible battlefield replete with sheep and harvestable crops.

[DeepWinter]

20. Lulz

Israel sends it's sincere condolences and offer free pager and walkie talkie replacement to Hezbollah members.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

45. Dark humor, but highly appreciated by this DU'er.

[Skittles]

56. so nice you find the entire mess a big joke

over and DONE

[ColinC]

3. Terrorism doesn't suddenly stop becoming terrorism just because a government is doing it.

If Hezbollah did this to IDF civilians, people would be crying about the horrible terrorist attack. But because it is mostly Lebanese Hezbollah linked civilians at the receiving end, it’s suddenly okay?

[Hekate]

8. Yet strangely enough I haven't heard nearly the uproar here regarding 11 months of bombings by Hezbollah against Israel

Amazing how that works.

[ColinC]

10. The attacks across the border have been mutual with Israel exacting a much larger death toll (around 500)

Again, I can assure you that if IDF -or Israeli officials pagers started blowing up and injured 3000 people, we wouldn't hear the end of it. But with this, folks are CELEBRATING killing and maiming people?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

12. No, we're CELEBRATING the killing and maiming of Hizbollah terrorists.

[ColinC]

13. A gross generalization that seems to include healthcare workers and children

[MarineCombatEngineer]

15. What were health care workers doing with Hizbollah pagers?

The vast majority of those injured were Hizbollah or Hizbollah affiliated terrorists, the deaths of those 2 children is tragic, but that's on Hizbollah for having a terrorist pager.
At least Israel did it's dead level best to minimize the collateral damage to the civilian pop., something that Hizbollah doesn't.
This was a brilliant targeted attack of an enemy of Israel and it severely disrupted their C&C systems which, in turn, disrupts their ability to wage war against Israel.

You may think it's a war crime or inappropriate, I really don't care, but it achieved it's goal with minimal civilian casualties.

[malaise]

5. Duh!

Rec

[alarimer]

6. Well, it's an improvement over bombing hospitals, I guess.

Israel is run by a piece of shit, though.

[Pinback]

30. And by ultra-Orthodox lunatics expecting the Messiah any day now. (nt)

[Mosby]

49. At least they don't celebrate some pretend messiah

Because that would be silly, huh.

[Pinback]

52. Yes, it would.

And is.

[Hekate]

7. Ridiculous. This is the most targeted operation in history afaict. The pagers were specifically for terrorist operatives

… and NOT for civilians. If daddy left one lying around the house it would be like leaving the code book lying around for the kids to explore. No, these were communication devices strictly for adults enrolled in the unholy cause … and the wounds were largely to abdomens, hips, and butts, where the devices were carried.

[EX500rider]

9. Hezbollah buys a bunch of encrypted pagers and issues them to their soldiers and that's indiscriminate?

Sounds extremely targeted to me much more so than various aerial bombs and Reaper strikes

[ColinC]

11. Most were Hezbollah-linked civilians. Not even directly Hezbollah

[onenote]

14. What is a "Hezbollah-linked" civilian? And link for the claim that "most" weren't Hezbollah?

This report indicated that the "vast majority" of those treated for injuries were young males --- Hezbollah's prime demographic.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/18/world/video/lebanon-pagers-attack-wedeman-digvid

[ColinC]

17. 12 civilians killed in first attack, 20 were killed in the latest attack and only 10 were Hezbollah

So far barely a third of the people killed were even Hezbollah. Everybody else wasn’t even targeted.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/hezbollah-vows-reckoning-after-thousands-lebanon-injured-exploding/story?id=113798347

[MarineCombatEngineer]

16. BS!!!!

[ColinC]

19. Do you have a source to refute?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

22. Sources have already been provided in other threads, but you knew that,

I've noticed that you've yet to provide a reliable source to your claim, why is that?

[ColinC]

24. Interesting

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/hezbollah-vows-reckoning-after-thousands-lebanon-injured-exploding/story?id=113798347

At least 20 more people were killed and 450 injured in Lebanon on Wednesday after a series of new explosions of wireless devices rocked the South, the Bekaa and the southern suburbs of Beirut, according to the Ministry of Health and the Lebanese Red Cross.

Ten Hezbollah members were among those killed on Wednesday, the group confirmed.

So you have at best in the last attack 50% success rate. But that isn’t if you add what happened on Tuesday:

At least 12 civilians were killed and at least 2,800 people injured in the explosions that took place Tuesday,

[Happy Hoosier]

18. Ya know what you call a terrorist linked "civilian?"

A terrorist. If these folks were tight enough with Hexbollah that they had pagers or walkie-talkies, they cannot claim status as a civilian.

[ColinC]

21. So kill all teachers EMS workers, children, parents

Etc if they are linked to hezbollah?

[Happy Hoosier]

23. Were they carrying pagers?

I have yet to see any verifiable figures on what percentage of the injured were truly "innocents."

I doubt it's what the jew-haters want us to believe.

Wars are nasty. Terrorism more so. I certainly regret any loss of innocent life. But if this effort dealt a serious blow to Hezbollah operations..... good!

[ColinC]

26. Yes. See post 24

[Happy Hoosier]

31. I reject that.

If "health care workers" are carrying Hezbollah pagers, they are Hezbollah AFAIC.

I realize that feelings are heightened, and some here despise Israel (at least as currently led) so much that they actually have sympathy for terrorists. I do not. I can despise Nutandyahoo and also think that Hezbollah got exactly what they deserved, and embedding in the community puts those communities at risk.

[ColinC]

33. What about children?

Most healthcare workers in Lebanon are Hezbollah linked because they get funding from the government -which Hezbollah represents. The linked article refers to two children who were also killed in the attacks. Below is an explanation why that might be, since it is not guaranteed who would be holding a pager:

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers.

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288

[Happy Hoosier]

34. I acknowledge there were likely children injured....

... though I do feel like I have reason to doubt those claims. But I will accept them for now.

And I do regret any collateral damage. From what I can see now (and I reserve the right to change my mind as info comes out), the collateral damage is not so large that I'd say the op wasn't justified, much less a "war crime" of any type. I've seen tons of video at this point of these devices going off and people RIGHT NEXT to the target being entirely uninjured. YMMV.

[ColinC]

36. That article cites two children were killed by the pagers

Not just injured

[Happy Hoosier]

38. Okay.

Doesn't change my mind. Two kids dying is sad, no doubt. I don;t think it means the op wasn;t justified, unless you'll argue that ANY attack that results in civilian casualties can't be justified. If that's your position, we have a fundamental disagreement.

[ColinC]

39. In the first attack all of the 12 killed were civilians

Hezbollah members might have included charity workers, health workers, members of prliament, etc -but at the end of the day were still civilians.

Pagers explode across Lebanon on Tuesday
At least 12 civilians were killed and at least 2,800 people injured in the explosions that took place Tuesday, according to Lebanese authorities. Around 460 of the injuries were critical and required surgery, Lebanese Health Minister Firass Abiad said. Most victims are suffering from eye and facial injuries, while others suffered injuries to hands and fingers, he said.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/hezbollah-vows-reckoning-after-thousands-lebanon-injured-exploding/story?id=113798347

[AZSkiffyGeek]

51. Do you blame the parents when children accidentally shoot themselves with a gun?

Seems like the same thing here. Kids playing with daddy's terrorist pager and it went off. Maybe the irresponsible parents shouldn't have let their terrorist pager laying around where their kid could get it.
But then terrorists don't really give a shit about the innocent lives they destroy.

[ColinC]

37. I used to play with my moms pager when I was a kid

It was a cool and nifty thing. No reason to assume that couldn’t happen here as well.

[Happy Hoosier]

40. Sure. It could happen.

And that's sad. Doesn't mean the op wasn't justified. At least to me.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

44. Agreed. nt

[MarineCombatEngineer]

25. You sure are going out of your way to condemn Israel for targeting Hizbollah

terrorists to disrupt their ability to wage war with a brilliant op that minimized civilian casualties.
Why is that?

[ColinC]

27. Not out of my way. I just give human emotions and rational criticism to things that bother me

This is one.

Let me ask you:

If IDF pagers started blowing up and killing civilian and military members alike -along with families and injuring bystanders, would you also call this a “brilliant attack?” Or would you label it what it properly is: terrorism?

It doesn’t suddenly stop becoming terrorism because an internationally recognized government is doing it.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

28. I would call it a brilliant attack as long as there were minimal civilian casualties

unlike what Hizbollah does to Israeli civilians.

Unlike some, I'm not a hypocrite.

[ColinC]

29. I appreciate your consistency

Although I would disagree entirely. Along with your general description of what you seem to think is happening in Lebanon.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

32. What happened in Lebanon was a targeted attack against Hizbollah's Command and Control apparatus,

to disrupt and degrade their ability to wage war against Israel and, for the most part, has succeeded spectacularly, the fact that some innocent civilians died or were injured is tragic, but in what war has civilians not been victims?
At least Israel did its dead level best to avoid harming innocent civilians, unlike Hizbollah when they fire rockets and missiles into Israel with the intent to harm or kill innocent civilians.

[ColinC]

35. I don't know if I shared this one with you but just in case

While the pagers were used by Hezbollah members, there was no guarantee who was holding the device at the time it was detonated. Also, many of the casualties were not Hezbollah fighters, but members of the group’s extensive civilian operations mainly serving Lebanon’s Shiite community.

At least two health workers were among those killed Tuesday. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, charity workers, teachers and office administrators work for Hezbollah-linked organizations, and an unknown number had pagers.

https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288

[MarineCombatEngineer]

41. Yes you did share that,

but it still doesn't change my mind that it was a targeted op on Hizbollah's C&C apparatus with minimal civilian casualties.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, but I'm quite sure we agree on more issues than not.

Sorry took so long to respond, I'm feeding and watering 8 feral cats, 2 full grown and 6 kittens.

[ColinC]

42. We do! Did I ever tell you I was an Army Engineer?

Not a cool combat engineer by any means, but was still a proud plumber!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

43. Oorah Army.

Semper Fi
Throughout my career, I worked with Navy Seabees, Army Engineers, etc, all were very professional and well trained.

[EX500rider]

46. Do you have a link for that?

[ColinC]

47. So far all of the 12 people killed in the first attack were civilians

There’s also no reason to doubt they were linked to Hezbollah in some way. But that could include members of parliament, EMS, charity worker,. doctors etc.(https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah-syria-ce6af3c2e6de0a0dddfae48634278288)

Pagers explode across Lebanon on Tuesday
At least 12 civilians were killed and at least 2,800 people injured in the explosions that took place Tuesday, according to Lebanese authorities. Around 460 of the injuries were critical and required surgery, Lebanese Health Minister Firass Abiad said. Most victims are suffering from eye and facial injuries, while others suffered injuries to hands and fingers, he said.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/hezbollah-vows-reckoning-after-thousands-lebanon-injured-exploding/story?id=113798347

[TheKentuckian]

48. You are the one trying to spin Hezbollah members as "civilians" but that is some bull.

They may or may not be active militants but they weren't civilians by the fact they were Hezbollah and were rightful targets.

The phony bloody shirt routine is foolish, gross, and full of shit.

[EX500rider]

55. "according to Hezbollah" you mean?

Do they have any reason to lie? I'd say yes

[mathematic]

50. Directly targeted military equipment. Not booby traps. Not civilians.

The specific military target was the communications network of Hezbollah. If the military equipment used to access the network are disabled and, more generally, become unreliable then the network itself breaks down.

I'm not surprised there are people that demand Israel does nothing to defend itself from terrorist militias. For these people there is no valid military target among Hezbollah or Hamas and there is no military action against them that isn't a unlawful.

[sarisataka]

53. Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah disagrees

He said 4,000 pagers carried by Hezbollah members exploded in hospitals, shops, cars and streets "where many civilians were" on Tuesday.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/this-could-be-called-a-declaration-of-war-hezbollah-leader-accuses-israel-of-massacres/ar-AA1qQB8M?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Note he does not claim many civilians were injured or killed- a telling omission.

[BannonsLiver]

54. Their opinion and $5 might buy a cup of coffee