I firmly believe a pivotal moment that breaks the fever of Trumpism will come

[pat_k]

Last edited Tue Mar 18, 2025, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Trumpublicans have done their best to divide and suck the humanity out of our communities. They have done their best to twist the values that have driven every decent thing this nation has ever accomplished out of all recognition.

Just as unprincipled zealots before them (McCarthy comes to mind) they are going too far. We are seeing communities finding common cause, pushing back, and winning! (e.g., Rachel's segment below)

Humanity and true American values are not dead! And on matters of fundamental principle, whether we ultimately win or lose, there is really no option but to choose to believe you can turn the tide and find like minded others to stand with you. The only thing for sure is that failure is guaranteed if you don't try!

With Trumpism, as with McCarthyism, our Sen. Welch moment will come. We may not even recognize how close that pivotal moment is until it is passed. And like that moment, it will probably not involve abstract principles, but rather cruel treatment of another human being that embodies the magnitude of the evil.

For those of you unfamiliar, these are the words that broke the fever of McCarthyism:

Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. ... Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true he is still with Hale and Dorr. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty, I would do so. I like to think I am a gentleman, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.

When McCarthy tried to continue his attack, Welch angrily interrupted,

Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?

[NoMoreRepugs]

1. Not going to happen. Republicans are scared shitless to utter nary a word of disagreement

to TrumpenFuhrer. They will dismantle the majority of our Democracy by the 4th of July. Town halls and strongly worded tweets aren’t going to work.

[pat_k]

3. Choose hopelessness and immobility if you like.

I choose hope and action.

[Rebl2]

17. They

are being snowflakes. Scaredy cats. Scared of being tweeted/X’ed at by trashy trump. They need to grow a spine and come out against him if they truly believe what he is doing is illegal or wrong in some way. I do believe there are republicans that would come out against some of what he is doing, but they are fearful of him.

[pat_k]

23. Absolutely.

Last edited Tue Mar 18, 2025, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

For Trump, Musk is both the arsonist tasked with burning it all down to clear the way for who knows what (they certainly have no clue) and the big stick (a bottomless pit of money to ensure nothing less than cheers are heard from any Republican office holder).

Our anger at the failure of our Democratic electeds to mount an effective opposition against the flood of outrages is justified. Unfortunately, we aren't particularly unified in what we are lobbying them to do. I would like to see that change. FWIW, here is my top priority, and I strongly encourage others to make it theirs:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220146722

[Mme. Defarge]

2. Joseph Welch

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch

[pat_k]

4. "Have You No Decency?" McCarthy American Experience PBS (Clip)

5:46

[allegorical oracle]

16. Taped that and rewatch it every so often. Keeps me in touch with the

reality of where we could, or could not go. A Welch may appear in the mid-terms. That is, if we survive until then. TSF is already violating his oath of office and deserves impeachment. Not feasible yet -- and that's partly why he in such a furious hurry.

[pat_k]

18. At a minimum, Democrats in the House and Senate

... need to write a joint "Letter to America" (or whatever they want to call it) as advocated by Simon Rosenberg. More on that in this post:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220146722

I think such a letter needs to be followed by Democrats in the House drafting Articles of Impeachment, but am focused on lobbying for the letter.

[in2herbs]

26. That is the least they could do, but will they even do this? BTW: I agree w/you. nt

[pat_k]

27. All we can do is push push push.

I've called and I worked up a letter last weekend, but am not thrilled with it. I think i'll let is percolate and whittle it down before conveying (I'm always too verbose and need a couple of rounds of cutting).

I got tied up and was unable to attend the Hopium Chronicles (Rosenberg) subscriber zoom tonight, which is kind of a drag because I wanted to try to get a question in about what sort of resistance he is running into (he has been having conversations -- not detailing because they are private, but I find it is always good have a better idea of what the latest barriers/excuses/groupthink are that need to be challenged.)

Anyway, I'll do my bit. I don't have much of a social network, but have been encouraging everyone I know to make calls/write letters Lobbying for a "Letter to America." And of course, calling on people in forums like this to do the same. It feels like a very small drop in the bucket, but every drop matters.

[SunSeeker]

5. I imagine when DOGE's Social Security staff cuts make the system collapse, even MAGAts will revolt. nt

[Woodycall]

7. Whether you like the idea or not...

Buy a gun. Specifically, a 30-30 lever action carbine. A 9mm Glock type pistol will not do. It's good short range self defense weapon and a good backup but not a good street fighting weapon. An AR type weapon is fine but is expensive and overrated. An open-sight 30-30 carbine holds 7 rounds that are highly effective
(even against ballistic armor) at 200 yards and can be reloaded quickly with just pockets, or pouches full of loose cartridges behind such things as dumpsters or automobiles. You think I'm nuts? Just turn on the news.

Or, you can join Chuck Schumer on his fucking book tour...

[writerJT]

6. Not happening.

The people who make up his base became radicalized and activated by Palin. Then they formed the Tea Party. That has morphed into Trumpism. And it’s all the same crap.

We’ve been stuck in this mess with Trump for a decade now. And his base stretches back at LEAST seventeen years, to 2008.

They aren’t going to abandon him. They aren’t going anywhere. The fever isn’t breaking.

We need strong leadership to build a voting coalition across the country that includes Democrats, the never-Trump folks, and people who haven’t been voting but are going to suffer under this administration.

Build the coalition. Vote them into oblivion.

[Woodycall]

10. While their tanks roll into the Rhineland...

Snap out of it!

[writerJT]

33. It is indeed appeasement to wait

for them to abandon him. Most of us are done waiting for The Moment.

[pat_k]

37. I'm not sitting on my hands waiting.

But I do find the hope I need to do the small bits I do in the thought that those actions, along with those of others, will move us closer to a tipping point -- and our Sen. Welch-type moment.

I don't know what that moment will look like. But the thing is, it's not "the moment" that causes a collapse. It is all the things that built up to it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Can happen. The country is measured in thirds and sixths

The boundaries of the groups I will discuss are not sharp or easily marked. The groups are blurred, overlapping and multi-dimensional. They have sub-groups. But whatever, this is a first-order model. Measurements stated here are approximate but I think capture most of the actual proportions. One third is about 33 %. One half of one third is one sixth or about 15 % (rounded down a bit, a rounder number).

One third is blue, one third is red, and one third is the wobbly middle. tRump won 1 percent more of the wobbly middle than Harris did. As far as I know at this time. The wobbly middle doesn't pay much attention to news or politics and is more erratic in its rate of voting.

The red at this point is basically tRumpian maga. The third has two halves. The softer half is the life-long conservative Republicans who are pretty steady and traditional. The hard core is cult members who have been on board since tRump 1.0. They are irretrievable. They are about the same size as the 15% that clung to Nixon as an icon in the late 70s.

The middle has an extra wobbly half of the third (one sixth) in the very center.

tRump's approval rating is a good measure (esp. in relation to other Presidents). It shows that the extra wobbly center has moved against tRump. They don't know much, but they've heard the stock market is down and Muck is taking a chainsaw to government. This worries them a little.

One half of the middle half of the middle third has shifted to disapproval, moving the needle from 50% to 44%.

Before long just about all of the middle will have shifted. That would move the needle to about 33%. If tRump has not made a big course correction and is reversing a lot of stuff by then, conditions will continue to worsen and the soft part of red will start peeling away like a drip, to mix my metaphors. I think by time the needle gets into the thirties, we will be seeing mass action in multiple forms, with very noticeable participation but not revolutionary. If it gets into the low thirties, pressure from mass action will be making the tRump-Muck presidency crack in several ways.

As I see things, Muck is breaking things in ways that no President could fix quickly, and certainly not tRump even if panics and reverses course at some point. He is incompetent and they are both short-sighted and unwise.

Muck is breaking things at the same time as tRump is fucking up US foreign and trade policy and overturning domestic labour markets. tRump is not targetting his tariff taxes one at a time, but is using a blunderbuss to fire at the whole world.

Much depends on when the reds start drifting away from tRump and when the middle gets angrier.

My conclusion is that there will be a tipping point and whether or not there is a visible "Have you no decency, Sen McCarthy" event, once it passes, things will get a bit heated. At that point if tRump-Vance-Patel-Bondi don't reverse course, or get impeached or get forced into resignation by twelve Republican Senators going to the White House ... it could get very heated.

But mass action could convince tRump to reverse course before that point, to "save" his legacy, since he is very ratings oriented.

[pat_k]

24. "My conclusion is that there will be a tipping point"

When a tipping point is reached, it is often hindsight that attributes the rapid upending of the balance to a specific event. Whether or not that event was actually casual is debatable.

I do know that real stories about the effect of some action on real human beings reaches hearts and minds. Highlighting the abuse and arbitrary firings of the people who serve us is powerful. And can be even more powerful in the right context. At this juncture, that context must be a clear reminder of fundamental values and principles and condemnation of the crimes against us -- that with those firings and agency closures the trump administration is committing crimes that upend our constitutional order.

I think the most effective vehicle for the latter is the type of joint House/Senate "Letter to America" Simon Rosenberg is advocating.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100220146722

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Yes, tipping points are not fundamentally causal.

If there were no other forces added after the tipping point was applied then the tipping point would be the last causal bit and the only one that could be identified as a beyond a doubt (tiny) causal bit. The classic example is dribbling sand grains onto a hill of sand before an avalanche. Pick any grain of sand and it had as much role as any other grain of sand. Those who applied the more fundamental causal forces love to make a big deal out of the last grain of sand.

I think real stories will remind people of those around them who they know have been affected in one or more ways. The number of those grows day by day.

[writerJT]

32. Yeah, any day now.

It’s only been about a decade.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. It should be obvious that it has never been like this in that decade, not even close to this bad

If you think this year is equivalent to the last decade, well, I don't know how to help you.

[writerJT]

35. Must be one of those "turning points."

There’s only been several dozen of them since 2016. Maybe THIS is the one!

Look, I don’t think you get it. My initial post to which you responded clearly lays out my idea of what I think we need to do. Apparently your idea is to wait around for Trumpists to come to their senses. Good luck.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. I never said "wait", it's not "the trumpists" (only some) and never-trumpers are never enough

Even when never-trumpers join Democrats, it's not enough to make much of a convincing impact.

You won't get massive million person marches in multiple cities until you get to the point where some trumpists come around.

Wait for them? Nope. I NEVER said that. They will never come around, even only some of them, until there is mass Democratic action building. They are followers, not activists. Then at some point it will be a tidal wave and the cult members will say "Where the hell did that come from?"

Nice straw man you set up.

[writerJT]

40. Plenty of us Americans are already working on that.

Thank you for your concern and support.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

41. Likewise, I've seen a lot of support for Canada on DU and it is very encouraging. Tough times, be resilient. . . . nt

[Buns_of_Fire]

8. McCarthy's chief counsel, FWIW, was Roy Cohn.

The same Roy Cohn who mentored the little moron Donald Trump until he became the BiG moron Donald Trump.

[pat_k]

9. Yep.

Roy Cohn taught trump well (link)

. . .
. . Cohn imparted an M.O. that’s been on searing display throughout Trump’s ascent, his divisive, captivating campaign, and his fraught, unprecedented presidency. Deflect and distract, never give in, never admit fault, lie and attack, lie and attack, publicity no matter what, win no matter what, all underpinned by a deep, prove-me-wrong belief in the power of chaos and fear.
. . .

[Bernardo de La Paz]

13. Excellent pithy excerpt on Cohn. Wish I had time for in-depth documentary. Maybe saw it years ago. Likely excellent. nt

[pansypoo53219]

11. ARAB ARAB ARAB points the moron!

what part of make amerikka white again doesn't america understand.

[cadoman]

15. the JFK file "release" could indicate who AmeriKKKa intends to go after next

What would stop him from planting false information about a current enemy or target of his there? Maybe the CIA? Canada? I wouldn't put it past him.

Create a sense of outrage over a long settled matter, the facts of which are plain to anyone with a bit of common sense. Trumps drags it up from the bottom of the lake and plants a few bits of false and/or conflicting info to create a new conspiracy?

[SamKnause]

12. Maga trump, maga politicians, and the maga cult have already proven they have no sense of decency.

[pat_k]

19. As did McCarthyism from the get go...

... But it took a moment that crystalized the magnitude of cruelty and put it on display for the American people to turn the tide on a dime. There was a build up to that moment that was not really visible.

I don't know what our "moment" will look like, but I have lived through seismic shifts. It can appear it all happens in a moment, but the reality is that things build toward the shift -- it's an accumulation until you hit the straw that breaks the camel's back. That's an old adage for a reason. It is how things often work -- an event, unremarkably like so many prior events, triggers a collapse.

As long as good people stay engaged and push back -- and as long as they continue their reign of intolerable cruelty (and they will) -- we will reach that moment.

[Torchlight]

20. I do think there will be a Moment. I simply can't imagine when or how it materializes

Over the past ten years or so, I thought numerous times, "this has GOT to be the straw that breaks the back" but each one gets quickly glossed over, minimized, sea-lioned, and forgotten.

My concerns now are how far back we we get pushed before the dam breaks, and how controlled will that break will be. My hope is it can be accomplished in chambers.

[pat_k]

22. Yes, we are in very frightening times.

I don't know what the straw will look like either. My sense is that it will be more about something that crystalizes their remorseless cruelty against a person -- or group of people -- rather than fundamental principles violated (although recognizing the magnitude of those violations will play a role).

I actually find hope in the uncertainty. Human's are lousy prognosticators, and sometimes the absolute worst of times can usher in positive change (and sadly vice versa).


If You’re Sure How the Next Four Years Will Play Out, I Promise: You’re Wrong
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/12/opinion/donald-trump-election.html?unlocked_article_code=1.a04.ympW.kUwqcrA3X6TD&smid=url-share

As I see it, given that the future is unknowable, we have a pretty simple choice: hope and action or nihilism and immobility. And it is a choice. It can be hard to hang unto hope is such times, but, however things play out, for me, finding ways to keep hope alive is job one.

[anamnua]

21. ''And if you hold out alone long enough there always comes a time

when the tyrant makes some ghastly mistake which alters the whole balance of the struggle.''

-- Winston Churchill

[pat_k]

29. I just read the transcript of that May 1945 broadcast

I just read the transcript of that May 1945 broadcast (link below).

Churchill's review of the events of 1940 and 1941 was a reminder of a history I fear more recent generations are simply not aware of. He touches on the role of the U.S. before Pearl Harbor:

Great anxiety was felt by President Roosevelt, and indeed by thinking men throughout the United States, about what would happen to us in the early part of 1941. This great President felt to the depth of his being that the destruction of Britain would not only be a fearful event in itself, but that it would expose to mortal danger the vast and as yet largely unarmed potentialities and future destiny of the United States.

He feared greatly that we should be invaded in that spring of 1941, and no doubt he had behind him military advice as good as any in the world, and he sent his recent Presidential opponent, Mr. Wendell Willkie, to me with a letter in which he had written in his own hand the famous lines of Longfellow, which I quoted in the House of Commons the other day:

Sail on, O Ship of State!
Sail on, O Union strong and great!
Humanity with all its fears,
With all the hopes of future years,
Is hanging breathless on thy fate!

We were in a fairly tough condition by the early months of 1941 and felt very much better about ourselves than in the months immediately after the collapse of France. Our Dunkirk army and field force troops in Britain, almost a million strong, were nearly all equipped or re-equipped. We had ferried over the Atlantic a million rifles and a thousand cannon from the United States, with all their ammunition, since the previous June . .

And what were the fatal mistakes of which he spoke? They were the actions that brought us into the war and planted the seeds of a powerful Western Alliance against authoritarian powers that has been a bedrock of our collective security and prosperity ever since. The Alliance 47 seems hellbent on collapsing.

And if you hold out alone long enough there always comes a time when the tyrant makes some ghastly mistake which alters the whole balance of the struggle. On June 22, 1941, Hitler, master as he thought himself of all Europe, nay indeed soon to be, he thought, master of the world, treacherously, without warning, without the slightest provocation, hurled himself on Russia and came face to face with Marshal Stalin and the numberless millions of the Russian people. And then at the end of the year Japan struck her felon blow at the United States at Pearl Harbor, and at the same time attacked us in Malaya and at Singapore. Thereupon Hitler and Mussolini declared war on the republic of the United States.

Years have passed since then. Indeed every year seems to me almost a decade. But never since the United States entered the war have I had the slightest doubt but that we should be saved and that we had only to do our duty in order to win. We have played our part in all this process by which the evildoers have been overthrown. . .

And later

It may well be said that never have the forces of two nations fought side by side and intermingled into line of battle with so much unity, comradeship, and brotherhood as in the great Anglo-American army. Some people say, "Well, what would you expect, if both nations speak the same language and have the same outlook upon life with all its hope and glory." Others may say, "It would be an ill day for all the world and for the pair of them if they did not go on working together and marching together and sailing together and flying together wherever something has to be done for the sake of freedom and fair play all over the world."

When Trump and Vance attacked Zelensky in the Oval Office and made his betrayal of our allies clear, I was more overwhelmed by shame, grief, and rage than I had been by any outrage to that point.

As I read the rest of Churchill's speech -- the sacrifices of our allies, the power of our unbreakable commitments -- that shock, shame, rage, and grief came flooding back. It's a must read, but be prepared.

I wish I had a soundproof room.

https://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/1945-05-13a.html

[anamnua]

30. Quite so.

The following has been posted before and is worth posting again (click on 'watch on YouTube’):

Putin is the Hitler of the saga. Zelensky is the Churchill. Trump/Vance are certainly no FDR/Truman.

[pat_k]

38. Yes, that captures the magnitude of their betrayal

[Polybius]

28. If the tipping point comes, it could lead to a civil war

That sounds horrific.

[anamnua]

31. Ulysses Simpson Grant

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other

[pat_k]

39. Wow. Just wow.

I wasn't familiar with that one.