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SHRED

(28,136 posts)
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:54 PM Dec 2012

Shouldn't churches be taxed if they weigh in on secular "issues"?

It's my understanding that religion/church is forbidden to support a particular candidate however can support, or not support, a particular issue without fear of losing their tax exempt status.

Why is this?
Why are they allowed to weigh in on political issues (law) and still retain their tax exempt status?



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30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Shouldn't churches be taxed if they weigh in on secular "issues"? (Original Post) SHRED Dec 2012 OP
Churches should be taxed (period). Many operate as mega-corporations and RKP5637 Dec 2012 #1
I agree with regard to "product" Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #12
tax them! mark eagledove Dec 2012 #2
Churches and all their affiliated business should be taxed. Walk away Dec 2012 #3
So long as they're not advocating for any poltical party Canuckistanian Dec 2012 #4
No. Why should they be taxed? kwassa Dec 2012 #5
As a liberal Christian, I agree Freddie Dec 2012 #7
I am asking questions SHRED Dec 2012 #8
I'm asking questions, too. kwassa Dec 2012 #13
They should be taxed regardless. They are hate mongering leeches. forestpath Dec 2012 #6
Like that fucking prick Martin Luther King, Jr. Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #10
Wow, want some other examples einstein??? Logical Dec 2012 #11
You mean, like that Rat Bastard Jesse Jackson? Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #15
Lol, either you don't read much or you don't care! Logical Dec 2012 #21
I'm sure that's it... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #29
By supporting a law or an issue, they can reasonably assert that they're "advancing religion" X_Digger Dec 2012 #9
No, again. kwassa Dec 2012 #14
They are allowed to speak on issues... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #17
What is a leap of logic? That they can advocate for a cause / law but not a politician? X_Digger Dec 2012 #18
National Cathedral Dean Rev. Gary Hall Advocates Gun Control kwassa Dec 2012 #16
There's an asterisk to that.... Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #19
Yes. Jack Sprat Dec 2012 #20
I totally agree. femrap Dec 2012 #22
Which taxes are you speaking of? nm rhett o rick Dec 2012 #23
They should just pay taxes, period. It would settle any hair splitting. 2naSalit Dec 2012 #24
Not unless you tax every other non-profit on the same basis. Not unless pnwmom Dec 2012 #25
they can weigh in on specific political issues and maintain non-profit status La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #26
Clarification re "nonprofit" and "tax exempt" Jim Lane Dec 2012 #27
can you define what is a secular issue and what is a religious issue? ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #28
I don't know, SHRED. Do you regard poverty, homelessness, and hunger to be secular issues? slackmaster Dec 2012 #30

RKP5637

(67,112 posts)
1. Churches should be taxed (period). Many operate as mega-corporations and
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:57 PM
Dec 2012

their product should not be produced/distributed tax-free.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
12. I agree with regard to "product"
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:17 AM
Dec 2012

Some mega-churches have bookstores with full-time staff. They sell inspirations books and other paraphernalia just like any other bookstore. No reason for them to get the advantage of operating tax-free (unlike to their for-profit competitors).

Unless they can PROVE that any "profit" from their operations is reinvested in genuinely charitable activities. Six-figure salaries for the pastors do NOT count.

Walk away

(9,494 posts)
3. Churches and all their affiliated business should be taxed.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:02 AM
Dec 2012

The separation of church and state is about ideology, not profits and losses.

Canuckistanian

(42,290 posts)
4. So long as they're not advocating for any poltical party
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:02 AM
Dec 2012

They're free to spew any bullshit on any issue.

That's my understanding.

Tax 'em anyways. They're a major potential revenue source.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
5. No. Why should they be taxed?
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:05 AM
Dec 2012

Churches support liberal causes, too.

You are attempting to re-define the separation of church and state, which is already established in law. Why are you trying to expand the separation? That is the real question.

Freddie

(9,275 posts)
7. As a liberal Christian, I agree
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:10 AM
Dec 2012

But the second a church starts telling their members how to vote, they should be taxed!

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
15. You mean, like that Rat Bastard Jesse Jackson?
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:24 AM
Dec 2012

Or maybe that shit-stain Al Sharpton?

How about Jimmy Carter, damned Bible-thumping Sunday School Teacher!

Then there's....uh....every fucking member of the Kennedy Family!

Oooo, that creep Daniel Berrigan and also the Nuns on the Bus. They piss me off so much.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
29. I'm sure that's it...
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:43 AM
Dec 2012

Probably not just that blanket condemnations (like the one I was replying to) are typically wrong-headed and otherwise just plain wrong. Probably not that assuming all members of a group share the worst characteristics of some members of the group is pretty much the dictionary definition of prejudice. Probably not that at all.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
9. By supporting a law or an issue, they can reasonably assert that they're "advancing religion"
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:14 AM
Dec 2012

which is the language in the 501(c)(3) statute.

Here's a good read on those lines, and how to step across them:

http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
17. They are allowed to speak on issues...
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:27 AM
Dec 2012

How else is their faith supposed to relevant in their lives if they can't apply it to the world around them? So long as the church does not advocate for or against a candidate or a campaign, they are allowed to discuss current events. Bear in mind that every liberal advocacy group, such as Planned Parenthood and others, also makes statements on social issues. But they do not engage in direct political advocacy.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
18. What is a leap of logic? That they can advocate for a cause / law but not a politician?
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:29 AM
Dec 2012

That by doing so, they cross the line into political activity or electioneering?



Not sure, since you didn't specify.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
16. National Cathedral Dean Rev. Gary Hall Advocates Gun Control
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:26 AM
Dec 2012

Why should he lose his tax-exempt status?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/national-cathedral-gun-control-rev-gary-hall_n_2313328.html

WASHINGTON -- The dean of the Washington National Cathedral, the Very Rev. Gary Hall, vowed on Sunday to mobilize the nation's faith communities to fight the influence of pro-gun lobbying groups and advocate for stronger gun control laws. In a morning sermon delivered to more than 1,000 congregants in Northwest Washington, D.C., Hall said, "Everyone in this city seems to live in terror of the gun lobby. But I believe the gun lobby is no match for the cross lobby."

Hall delivered his sermon in the wake of Friday's massacre of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., a tragedy that has horrified the nation and reignited the debate over gun control laws.

An ordained Episcopal priest, Hall presides over an institution that Congress has designated as the National House of Prayer. But in Sunday's sermon, Hall placed the Cathedral in a rare position at the center of a contentious political debate. “If we are truly America’s ‘National’ Cathedral, as we say we are, then we must become the focal point of faithful advocacy of gun control, calling our leaders to courageous action and supporting them as they take it," Hall said.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
19. There's an asterisk to that....
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:32 AM
Dec 2012

501(c)(3) organizations can engage in limited amounts of lobbying. If they organization engages in "substantial" lobbying -- typically (but not exclusively) measured by a percentage of the organization's gross expenditures -- then it could lose its tax exempt status. For a pastor to stand in the pulpit and denounce another lobbying group is something that has no dollar value and would not likely be cause for review by the IRS.

 

Jack Sprat

(2,500 posts)
20. Yes.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
Dec 2012

If the minister, priest, or rabbi advocates for a political candidate or party, then their tax-exempt status should be forfeited. The congregants should be allowed to act as whistle-blowers.

It's only right and fair. If I have given money in offerings and my church betrays me with political BS offensive to me, then I should be able to report them to the IRS and have action taken to impose taxes upon that church for a year and then a probationary period added to it.

 

femrap

(13,418 posts)
22. I totally agree.
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:23 AM
Dec 2012

Tax the crap out of all of them....except those that really do good.....and preach that the members must do good.

pnwmom

(108,995 posts)
25. Not unless you tax every other non-profit on the same basis. Not unless
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:27 AM
Dec 2012

you want to tax the Sierra Club.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
26. they can weigh in on specific political issues and maintain non-profit status
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:29 AM
Dec 2012

sort of the same way NOW can endorse obama.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
27. Clarification re "nonprofit" and "tax exempt"
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:01 AM
Dec 2012

Use of these terms can be confusing. Lawyers tend to identify organizations by the relevant section of the Internal Revenue Code, so that there's no ambiguity.

A 501(c)(3) organization is prohibited from endorsing political candidates, and is limited in its lobbying on issues. The organization is not taxed. Donations to the organization may be deducted by the donors on their individual income tax returns, because they are charitable contributions.

A 501(c)(4) organization is also a nonprofit and is also not taxed, but it is permitted to endorse political candidates. Contributions to the organization are not tax-deductible for the donors.

Most churches and other religious organizations in this country are 501(c)(3) entities, as are the Red Cross, various disease-related foundations, and a host of others. Some religious leaders have occasionally gotten carried away and skirted -- or, in my personal opinion, crossed -- the line against endorsements. The IRS has not made a widespread practice of cracking down on such instances.

Some of the organizations mentioned in this thread, such as the Sierra Club and NOW, are 501(c)(4) organizations. If you've been deducting your contributions to them, see your accountant about filing an amended return -- that's an improper deduction. Such organizations (also including the NRA, for example) are allowed to endorse political candidates.

It's a very common practice for a 501(c)(4) organization to set up an affiliated 501(c)(3) foundation, so that donors who want the deduction can make charitable contributions that will get c3 treatment while furthering the goals of the c4 organization. The foundation's funds can be used only for limited purposes, such as litigation. This restriction makes such money less valuable. (You'll sometimes see the terms "hard money" and "soft money" in this context. The hard money is what's harder to raise because the donor can't deduct it; it goes to the c4 organization and can be used with fewer restrictions. The soft money is what goes to the c3 foundation and can be used only for limited purposes. Sound management dictates that soft money be used for any project that qualifies for it, because this preserves the more flexible hard-money funds.)

Often, as in this thread, it's unclear whether "tax the churches" means "treat the churches as c4 rather than c3 entities" or "evict them from section 501 entirely." One point to bear in mind is that there are many, many c3 entities that aren't churches, and any change affecting churches will presumably affect all those other c3's as well.

And, yes, I'm aware of the 501(c)(5) and 501(c)(6) organizations. By omitting them I'm oversimplifying. Practically every sentence of this post is an oversimplification in some respect or other. It's a post, not the book-length treatment that would be required for complete accuracy.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
28. can you define what is a secular issue and what is a religious issue?
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:16 AM
Dec 2012

not trying to be snarky, but there are loads of places where the christian bible (or its interpretations) can bleed into what might be considered secular life. it is really a sticky wicket.

sP

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