Does it strike anyone as important that the CT shooter had Aspergers and it is often treated with...

[Th1onein]

Last edited Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

You guessed it: antidepressants.

On edit:

And by the way, I'm not the only one who is making this very important connection: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2012/Dec18/AntiDepressants.html

[Kalidurga]

1. I am not sure I can take that as a fact...

Media reports have been way off. So far off as to be negligent. We don't at this point know if he was never violent in the past or if he was being watched carefully because he had triggers. We don't know if he was prescribed meds or if he wasn't or even if he was taking anything. Basically we know nothing about him at this point except that his name was Adam Lanza and he was 20 years old. He had problems that were readily apparent, but nothing that would indicate he was dangerous.

[Th1onein]

4. We don't know anything for sure, yet, that is true.

But this is something that we need to pay attention to. These drugs are well known to cause violence, especially in younger people. And, it is common to prescribe SSRI drugs for some of the problems associated with Aspergers. For instance:

For preoccupations, rituals and compulsions: selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) (fluvoxamine, fluoxetine, paroxetine), tricyclic antidepressants (clomipramine)
For anxiety: SSRIs (sertraline, fluoxetine), tricyclic antidepressants (imipramine, clomipramine, nortriptyline)

[Kalidurga]

14. I have read some horror stories...

True story happened in my family. One of my nephews was diagnosed with ADD and they wanted to put him on drugs, my sister refused to do that. She was terrified of the side effects. He was 2 or 3 at the time. Years later I think 5 it turns out his twin sister was diagnosed with ADHD, we are pretty sure that one is an accurate diagnosis, we never believed it about Drew. So, anyway my sister didn't let her be on drugs either she's in college now and doing good there. There is no telling what would have happened with my nephew if he had been taking drugs that he didn't need. BTW I don't think this is a horror story, just anecdotal evidence that some kids get these drugs when they don't even have the problem they are prescribed for.

[MineralMan]

24. Just stop. Stop right there.

If you have no information about this shooter or any medications he might have been taking, just stop.

Your post is irresponsible. It adversely affects people who take and benefit from antidepressant medications.

Just fucking stop.

[arthritisR_US]

34. Thank you.

[hedgehog]

52. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Rider3]

53. Thank you.

You're so correct.

[thucythucy]

101. Thank you.

As ever, MM, the voice of reason.

[get the red out]

131. Thank you for that

I am getting quite tired of the bias against anti-depressants that keeps showing up on DU.

[tama]

157. "Don't destroy the placebo effect"

is a fair point, but not at the cost of silencing or other points of views, empirical evidence and common sense.

[MineralMan]

183. Who are you quoting? I did not write that.

Attempts to put words in my mouth will always fail. I say what I mean. You needn't add to it.

[Taverner]

170. +100

[Posteritatis]

176. Seriously.

"I know nothing about this, but I'm going to fabricate a narrative and run with it as though it's the truth" is an ... annoying habit, to say the least, and it could stand to be slapped down the way you just did so here way more often than it does.

[mattvermont]

201. yes

thank you. The data on the violence/suicide/SSRI is so confounded that it should not be cited....

[arely staircase]

202. +1

eom

[Walk away]

226. +1000!

[Eddie Haskell]

239. Stop what?

These drugs carry a "black box" warning on the bottle. That's not conjecture, that's a fact.

[steve2470]

249. thank you MM nt

[msanthrope]

270. Well said. nt

[GaYellowDawg]

118. I took sertraline for a few years when younger.

It didn't make me violent. It made me much less depressed, is what it did. Much less depression, much less stress. Some people turn depression outwards, some inwards. I'm the latter. Having that kind of impulse gone was a tremendous break. Sometimes I felt like it damped me down a bit cognitively, but that was an OK tradeoff.

I wish people who didn't have personal experience with antidepressants would shut up about how dangerous they are. For me, they were a blessing that rolled the dark clouds of depression back.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

133. +1 nt

[Th1onein]

138. Really? I HAVE personal experience with them. So do several of my family members, all of whom had

adverse reactions to them. Myself included.

So, NOW, can we talk about them as IF they had black box warnings on their labels?

[thucythucy]

208. So this adverse reaction you had, did it turn you into a mass murderer?

Lots of mass murderers in your family, are there?

If so, perhaps your time would be better spent informing the authorities about this, rather than posting attacks on people with Asperger's and other mental disabilities.

[Th1onein]

219. NO ONE is posting attacks on people with Asperger's or any other mental disability.

It's ABOUT SSRI drugs. I've said that time and time again here.

And, of course I didn't go on a murderous spree. BUT, I did suffer from akathisia. Only for a day, thank God, but having experienced that state, myself, I can understand why some people would go on a murderous spree, if they had to deal with it for more than a day. AND, I knew what it was, and I knew why it was happening. Most people don't.

Now, I'm going to go ahead and put you on ignore, honey, because your arguments on this topic defy logic and I don't have the time or the patience to continue to answer your attacks.

[thucythucy]

224. Go ahead and put me on ignore,

"honey" just as you've ignored all the dozens of posts here condemning your blatant use of prejudice against people with disabilities, rebutting your dubious assertion that Asperger's had anything to do with this atrocity. That's fine by me.

But I've determined never again to look past posts that demonize people with disabilities.

Thus kind of bigotry has to be confronted. Too many people have worked too hard and sacrificed too much on behalf of the disability rights movement to let this sort of smear campaign go by.

[Michigan Alum]

152. These problems prob. existed BEFORE they took the medications. Often they go off them cold turkey.

Which can really screw someone up.

[Terra Alta]

250. I've been on sertraline for over 5 years now.

I've never had any desire to harm anyone. In fact, it has literally saved my life. Everyone I have talked to who is on antidepressants say their lives are 100% better since they started taking them. The problem is guns -- there are just too many of them out there, and some that shouldn't even be legal for a civilian to own.

[SugarShack]

252. Columbine: Same thing. Former Sen. John Decamp brought stats to court

1 in 4 will be homicidal or suicidal. That is 25%! Very high to release a drug with these stats. Anyway, the judge ruled against the evidence being used in court. So of course something is going on here!

Get real!!!

[elleng]

2. There have been some discussions/threads on the subject today(Monday.)

Apparently 'his' antidepressant was a 'sketchy' antipsychotic. VERY important, the whole bit, along with his mother keeping guns in the house.
Discussed here. Thread locked. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2011674

[MineralMan]

26. There is no information about that that has any credibility.

WE DO NOT KNOW if or what medications the shooter might have been taking. It's irresponsible to speculate on this until we have some verifiable information. It is that simple. Please don't speculated on that. It has the potential to harm too many people who are taking such medications to good effect.

[csziggy]

160. The 'uncle' cited in that article is a scammer

Not related to the Lanza family in any way. Jonathan Lee Riches loves to insert himself into high profile cases - he tried with less success to do so with the Aurora theater massacre case. He second hobby is suing - people, eras of history, anything. He's sued the Civil War and the Dark Ages, FFS!

The original story with the claim about the antipsychotic was in The Sun (UK Tabloid) with is a picture of the "uncle" and it looks as though The Sun took it down. The Smoking Gun has a photo of him when he was released from prison in March of this year is on there. Same a$$hole, same beard. I wish I had taken screen shots of both to compare!

Cached version of The Smoking Gun page - the direct link wouldn't load: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bw-9IlpDpWgJ:www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/jonathan-lee-riches-free-578912+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Law enforcement said they have not found drugs or medications at the house. Toxic results would not be back yet, so there is no verifiable evidence yet that Adam Lanza was taking anything.

[HiPointDem]

3. i've seen no verifiable source that says this is the case, & lots of different reports of what he

supposedly 'had' -- autism, psychosis, schizophrenia etc.

we don't know.

[AldoLeopold]

5. I know that the current Repuke and NRA line is

Well, he was mentally ill, so we should treat the mental illness...but HEAVENS TO BETSY...not the guns.

So...maybe we should do BOTH?

Don't you agree OP?

[Th1onein]

7. I think psychiatrists and MD's; anyone who writes a script for these kinds of meds.....

ought to be required to report it to a central database, tied in with buying a gun. If you (or a family member) have had a script within the past two years for these kinds of meds, you cannot buy a gun. Period.

[snooper2]

8. You want to see the poll I did for that

-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022011479#post20

[upaloopa]

33. So if you are treated for depression your medical

history should not be private. That based on your assumptions about treatment?

[arthritisR_US]

41. If I suffer from a seizure disorder it is not

kept private and affects the ability to get a drivers license, so ya it shouldn't be kept private for gun ownership.

[upaloopa]

57. I glad you aren't given any authority to write laws

[arthritisR_US]

68. I want to save lives, guns only serve to take

lives. Suicide attempts are generally done impulsively and so surviving a suicide attempt by a fire arm is extremely low.

"The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling.3 There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households."

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

So ya, I want to keep guns out of certain people's hands to protect them and others.

[loyalsister]

173. Since when is it not kept private?

The only way people know about mine is if I tell them. The fact that I don't have a driver's license does not identify me as having Epilepsy. Repeat DUI offenders are not able to drive, either.

[arthritisR_US]

189. True. I would assume the records would be kept

silent with respect to fire arms, existing only to determine eligibility for ownership.

[loyalsister]

190. Mandatory reporting for DL is only legal in a few states

Most Doctors oppose it because it discourages people who have seizure disorder from seeking treatment. The same goes for mental illness and any kind of mandatory self reporting. Would an average gun enthusiast with a mental illness seek treatment if they thought they would get on a stigmatizing list?

[arthritisR_US]

191. I had not thought of that, I don't think they

would, to be honest

[thucythucy]

206. One of the authors of the Americans with Disabilities Act,

Democratic Congressman Tony Coelho, has epilepsy, and he wrote the ADA specifically to prevent this kind of blanket discrimination.

[arthritisR_US]

213. Well, given the discrimination that could result

driving those in need of treatment underground, I can understand why. Blanket proposals seem too simplistic for complex issues.

[thucythucy]

214. Absolutely. In Coelho's case, he was diagnosed

with epilepsy as a young man (though he'd had it since an accident as a teenager). He was in seminary at the time, training to be a priest. Once he was diagnosed, the Catholic church kicked him out of seminary, the state of California revoked his driver's license, and his family disowned him (epilepsy being seen as a sign of demonic possession). This was in the early 1960s.

The experience left Coelho absolutely determined to fight this sort of discrimination, so that, when he became Democratic whip in Congress in 1988, he decided to use his political clout to draft and introduce the first version of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which passed in 1990. Last I heard he was the head of the Epilepsy Foundation of America.

So many of our attitudes toward people with disabilities are based on fear and prejudice. This is, hopefully, changing, but the change has been much too slow.

Best wishes and happy holidays to you and yours!

[womanofthehills]

55. Depression is not psychosis

The problems is now that doctors are prescribing anti psychotic drugs for depression and sleep problems. Over kill.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/health/a-call-for-caution-in-the-use-of-antipsychotic-drugs.html?_r=

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. The problem is we still don't understand the brain and are basically

guessing when it comes to treatment. Someday we may advance in our understanding and not need to do it this way, but for now it's all we've got.

[tama]

164. Brave New World

In Aldous Huxleys 'Brave New World' working class is fed soma pills to keep them happy and working. When we had school shootings here in Finland, there was big discussion about the pill culture together with our collective responsibility for creating a society where such things happen. The national head of psychiatry defended his field by stating that the pill culture has done succesfully what the neoliberal Brave New World state has ordered, used pills to keep people able to work for the system and cope with it. Ie. anti revolutionary "psychiatry" in preference for non adaptive and frankly awfully insane status quo of path of collective suicide.

I believe we all agree that the pills don't cure the cause of depression and anxiety, just alleviate the symptoms when they work as intended. The underlying causes vary lot individually, but at general level, stress and anxiety and depression are very natural and healthy reactions to living in and trying to cope with an awfully fucked up system. From point of healing, alleviation of symptoms is double edged sword, some situations it is beneficial to give chance for healing process to start, in other situations it can postpone and block the healing process.

Edit to add: meant to post this as general comment to OP, but ended up first as reply to your post.

[upaloopa]

60. You can find information to support either side

Of the argument. Time magazine took both sides in one issue.

[Th1onein]

93. No, but if you are treated with an SSRI, yes, it should be reported.

And, by the way, WHAT assumptions are you talking about?

[HereSince1628]

107. In 2008 SCOTUS reaffirmed it was OK to deny 2A rights to criminals and the mentally ill

Last edited Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:59 PM - Edit history (3)

Many people are behind the curve on this part of the argument, because we assume there is privacy about health records and Dr./Patient confidentiality. Pro-gun groups and conservative think tanks have grasped onto that.

Most states don't but some states do have mental health reporting requirements and they are used in permitting gun ownership.

People seem not to understand that for the mentally ill this is mostly NOT about interfering with a desire to buy a firearm. It's about having their name in a national database of dangerous untrustworthy people, and the institutionalization of discrimination and stigma that may follow that will seriously negatively impact their lives.

For the mentally ill, Pandora's box has already cracked open. The struggle is to keep the lid from swinging wide open.

In the past few days there has been an awfully lot of conflation, mixing together, of things which aren't really the same.

All mental illnesses are not equal with respect to risk of violence. Most of the people posting that mentally ill shouldn't have guns can't even name the mental illnesses most associated with criminal violence or list the 5 mental illness associated with higher rates of crime, almost no one can list the 5 mental illnesses LEAST likely to be associated with violence.

Most American's expect policy about risk reduction to be based on actuarial assessments of risk across the population. But that aspect of the arguments has been cast aside with regard to the mentally ill.

Just as most gun owners don't ever criminally shoot people, most mentally ill never do criminal violence. Indeed, most mentally ill don't do violence at a higher rate than the general population. But even gun owners and the NRA don't seem to want the same actuarial approach that is used to communicate minimal actuarial risk of gun-owner violence to be used for determining gun policy toward the mentally ill.

That's an inconsistency in approach that's hard to understand, let alone justify. Is that ignorance of the facts or a desire to point gun restrictions at a different group or a manifestation of already existing stigma about the mentally ill?

If the general population knows little about mental illness they know even less about psychopharmaceuticals. The same psychopharmaceutical can be used for more than one mental illness which have different characters, and which have different risks of criminal violence.

The posted commentaries on DU seem confused about whether the drug is an indicator of a threat from mental illness. or whether the drug itself is the threat. Or, whether it's seen as some admixture of both and perhaps other factors.

There are concerns about SSRIs and associations with increased impulsivity. suicidality and violence especially in young people. And government and industry are trying to get a handle on that. The media is full of stories alerting the public and professionals about the concerns. No one argues that there aren't concerns.

But do the concerns rise to the level of formally identifying a depressed woman in her 40s as a dangerous person who is untrustworthy with respect to bringing violence into society?

I think that most people would prefer that to be a judgement made after consideration of the specific risks rather than a consequence of digital flag on a filled Rx or a mandated reporting of a DSM or ICD billing code into medical records

[tosh]

122. Thank you.

"All mental illnesses are not equal with respect to risk of violence. Most of the people posting that mentally ill shouldn't have guns can't even name the mental illnesses most associated with criminal violence or list the 5 mental illness associated with higher rates of crime, almost no one can list the 5 mental illnesses LEAST likely to be associated with violence."

[adigal]

124. That's crazy! I am on a medication for anxiety

So everyone should be able to see that? Good luck getting a job with that system.

[Th1onein]

139. No, of course not. But you shouldn't be able to buy a gun unless you are stable on these drugs.

That's why these killings are happening. That's why their incidence is increasing, concommitant with our usage of these drugs to treat depression. That's why these drugs have black box warnings on their labels. The problem is that doctors are NOT monitoring these patients closely enough after they start on these drugs. If they DID just do this, no one would have to make a list of people taking these drugs, and compare it with a list of those who buy guns.

[adigal]

145. That's crazy, I'm sorry. Even with anxiety, I'm more functional than most Americans,

And there is ZERO proof that SSRIs causes violence in people with anxiety! In fact, you are seriously just making stuff up as you go along. I'm a teacher - better get me on the list of possible violent whackadoodles in case I freak out on all the kids!

Both your understanding of anxiety and depression and your solutions are nuts!

[Th1onein]

197. YOU are just one person.

And there is not "zero proof." SSRI drugs have a black box warning on their labels for a REASON, and that reason is that they can cause violence in ANYONE who takes them, no matter what pathology they are prescribed for.

My understanding of anxiety and depression is underpinned by education, both in psychology and in biochemistry. Yours, on the other hand, are supported only by your own personal experience taking these drugs.

[green for victory]

262. http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/

http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/

[Th1onein]

266. Thank you, green for victory. These forums explain a lot about the effects of withdrawing from

Paxil. Some of those people are going through pure hell.

[politicat]

6. Nope.

The media got a lot of the Columbine HS facts wildly wrong. (Remember how they blamed the goths? Remember how geek and goth kids got suspended from school afterwards? Remember how it took most of a year for the media to get even half the facts right?)

SSRIs and antidepressants work reasonably well with ASDs, but they fail miserably with schizophrenia. SSRIs and ADs for schizophrenia are like treating a broken leg with cognitive behavioral therapy.

I'll await the autopsy and tox screen, thanks.

[arthritisR_US]

45. I could not agree with you more! Thank you. n/t

[ProudProgressiveNow]

136. +1 nt

[sendero]

242. Exactly...

... and IMHO if the kid was PRESCRIBED anything the cops would know by now and if we don't I can't understand why.

[cthulu2016]

9. No. Hard to think of anything less important.

[bluestate10]

10. Is this an OP or an agenda? Do you know that the killer was on medication,

or even under professional care? or is a WAG just being thrown out due to dislike for antidepressants? Cops are investigating the shooter's life, I will wait until they start presenting potential causes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. We don't know anything for sure yet.

This is silly and uninformed speculation.

[riderinthestorm]

12. NO! This is another red herring. Regardless of Adam Lanza's mental health, meds,

the status of his health care - none of that makes one whit of difference than the FACT that he had access to a small arsenal of killing weapons.

Its the guns. Period.

Trying to stigmatize people with Aspergers or who are on anti-depressants is classic NRA deflection.

Adam Lanza had easy access to guns. Regardless of anything else that's the MOST important part of this tale.

[HooptieWagon]

80. Because crazy people don't use knives, bombs, cars, etc to kill people?

I guess there was no need to shoot the Miami face-eater then...he wasn't armed, and therefore wasn't dangerous.
<rolleyes>

[GaYellowDawg]

119. Yeah. Because he killed 25 people with his teeth.

[Fumesucker]

13. Do you have a link for that claim? n/t

[Comrade_McKenzie]

15. Demonizing antidepressants is irresponsible. nt

[Jamastiene]

22. +999 trillion nt

[green for victory]

65. demonizing the shooters is preferable!

and their families

[thucythucy]

102. "Demonizing the shooters"??

Seriously. This guy shot twenty children and six adults and you're concerned that people are "demonizing" him?

Seems to me he made a "demon" out of himself.

If you want an example of "demonization" you should check out the posts that seem to imply that anyone and everyone with a mental illness or on a psychotropic medication is a potential mass murderer.

Now THAT's some heavy demonization.

Until we know more about the shooter--and I mean actual verifiable facts -- I think threads like this are highly irresponsible. They stigmatize an already stigmatized population, and are intensely hurtful to individuals with mental illness and their families.

[green for victory]

111. Michael Moore disagrees

This word is getting out!

60,827 views at 2:30 am tue dec 18
65,166 views at 7pm wed dec 19
66,459 views at 11pm wed dec 19
68,895 views at 6am thu dec 20

Watch the counter

[thucythucy]

113. You addressed nothing in my post

and instead posted a video about an entirely separate incident.

Again, we have no "diagnosis" of the shooter in this instance, no verified information that he was on any medications at all, and certainly nothing linking Asberger's to this sort of violence.

I doubt Michael Moore supports bigotry against people with disabilities, and I certainly don't think he would want to see the issue of pharmaceuticals sidetrack needed discussions on gun control.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

137. +1000 nt

[SidDithers]

16. Prove it...nt

Sid

[Odin2005]

17. This Aspie takes Paxil and I couldn't hurt a fly.

[Th1onein]

18. That's you, Odin2005. As many as five percent have adverse reactions involving violence to self or

others on these medications. It only takes one to go on a rampage.

Andrea Yates, the mother who drowned her five children, in Texas, was on Prozac. The Virginia Tech shooter was on an SSRI medication. The Amish school shooter, the Atlanta day trader, Jeffrey Wiese (Minnesota school shooter). Over and over, these drugs are implicated in violence towards oneself or others. Something needs to be done.

For what it's worth. I don't own a gun, am not a real big fan of the Second Amendment. And I am not now, and never will be, a member of the NRA.

[Odin2005]

19. Andrea Yates was high on Jesus.

[Th1onein]

42. She might have been high on Jesus, but she was also on Prozac, and had just had her dosage changed

a day or so before she killed her children.

[Confusious]

81. Takes a month or more for the drugs to take effect

Shows either:

A. how dishonest you are
B. How little you know

Which one?

[Th1onein]

87. Please don't launch personal attacks, Confusious. It lowers the level of discourse on this forum.

It CAN take a month or more for a therapeutic level to build up in one's sytem. CAN. Do you see that word: CAN. That doesn't mean that it always takes that long, and Andrea Yates had been on Prozac for a while. As I said previously, her dosage had been changed just prior to her killing her children.

And, by the way, I know a lot about this subject. My bachelor's is in psychology, and I have seventeen years of biochem research under my belt.

[liberalhistorian]

109. You propound misinformation

and blanket black-and-white statements and you're worried about "lowering the level of discourse"? You post that Lanza "had Asperger's" as a fact when that has never been officially confirmed (two policemen heard that he was "socially awkward" so they speculated about it without knowing anything else, someone else who'd once been in a classroom with him said that someone else said that they heard that he had AS, and the medical examiner said that he was told that Lanza had AS but admitted that he had no other information yet the media just ran with it), and assume that all aspies are treated with AD's and you're worried about the "lowering the level of discourse"?

My aspie son, who has NEVER been on ANY medication nor had to be, is already dealing with discrimination and harassment because of this, when, again, there's been NO official confirmation of it, and I'm sure other aspies are dealing with the same, and you post as fact, without further discussion, that Lanza had AS and you're worried about "lowering the level of discourse"? Sorry, sweetie, but to you, the "level of discourse" is only what YOU believe and what YOU want to hear and everyone else who tries to say anything slightly different is the problem. Just a cursory look through your threads and postings shows that loud and clear.

[Th1onein]

140. So, let me get this straight.......

You're saying that it is okay to attack me personally because you disagree with what I say? And, then, you justify that by accusing me of personally attacking someone, or some group? Wow.

[liberalhistorian]

144. Nice way to deflect the fact

that you do not even answer the point that you are incorrect regarding his diagnosis and possible medical treatment, the fact that you are repeating as fact information that has not yet been shown to be a fact, on both counts. But then again, that's what people do who don't have an answer to the questions being asked of them or the points being made. They simply claim "personal attack" and run from the room.

I simply pointed out that you were wrong about a definitive AS diagnosis, that there was no evidence of that other than speculation and hearsay, and that you also don't know what, if any, medicine he was taking. You had no answer to that. You've also had no sufficient answer to the fact that AD's are not a specific treatment for AS and that many AS are not on any medical treatment whatsoever (because there IS none for AS). You get angry when people don't go along with or understand your "facts" in your posts, but you start a thread with not one, but TWO incorrect assumptions, which you state as definitive fact, and have no response when that's pointed out to you and you don't seem to care how you might be affecting those with AS, or those who take AD. You have no response other than whining about an alleged "personal attack." Which means, then, that you have no legitimate response at all.

[Th1onein]

195. It's far from speculation when it's been reported as coming from an official involved in the

investigation. Nor is it speculation when it is part of the records stemming from the divorce proceedings. You see that word "official"? That's what you look for. You might also note, that those divorce proceedings are "official" records, too. "Record" is a pretty good word, too. As in "on the record." See how that works?

I don't get angry when people don't "go along" with the facts. I get angry when people don't talk about facts, and instead stage personal attacks.

When the talk turns to the person who is doing the talking and not to the facts, that's verging on a personal attack. When people actually start calling others names, that IS a personal attack. I'm not the subject here. Adam Lanza is. SSRI drugs are.

[liberalhistorian]

199. The medical examiner admitted

that he'd only been "told" that that was a diagnosis and he didn't know for sure, he didn't have an official confirmation. And allegations in divorce documents are not in any way absolute proof. You are, again, being very irresponsible and putting aspies like my son in even more danger of discrimination and harassment than they already are. I am now done with you.

[Th1onein]

221. Why don't you do a search on this topic? I'm not talking about the medical examiner.

I doubt someone who have a reason to "allege" in a divorce, that their son had Asperger's. After all, it's not an attack on either parent to have a child with this syndrome. And, even divorce courts have an evidentiary requirement.

[Confusious]

154. Just trying to figure out why you misrepresent things

Like you just did again.

A bachelor's in psychology and 17 years in research is a far cry from a PHD in psychiatry, a medical degree and years working in the field "under your belt."

[Th1onein]

235. Let me refresh your memory, then....

First you stated that it takes a month or more for these drugs to take effect. THAT is incorrect. Then you stated:

"Shows either:

A. how dishonest you are
B. How little you know

Which one?"

THAT is a personal attack.

How long it takes for these drugs to have an effect depends on a lot of things, one being the individual patient's particular metabolism. The FACT is that it CAN take as long as a month for these drugs to have an effect, but not always.

Whatever your standard is for making comments on the effects of these drugs, the BLACK BOX WARNINGS on the labels of the drugs themselves is enough for me, AND for most medical professionals.

[Confusious]

237. I suppose the PHD with a medical degree

And years in the field was lying when they told me that?

And that "most medical professionals" have problems with the drugs? Well, I guess all the shrinks I've seen over the years who kept me on the drugs just didn't give a damn.

Or the general practitioner who kept me on the drugs.

Or the multitudes of other people I've know on the medications, who have doctors or shrinks who gave them the medications.

Must be some sort of conspiracy going on here.

Either that, or you're referencing "medical professionals" like the republicans reference "the American people." (a bullshit reference)

I'll believe a PHD with a medical degree and years in field over you any day.

So again, you

A. Are misrepresenting things or
B. don't know what you are talking about

Which one?

Besides which, your entire crusade is a personal attack against people who have mental illness, basically you want to lock them all up until you decide they're Ok for society.

"Fuck you! You got a mental illness, you don't need no fucking rights!"

Or consign them back to the hell they lived in.

[green for victory]

238. "your entire crusade is a personal attack against people who have mental illness"

Last edited Sat Dec 22, 2012, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

false

it's to try to find out what is making our children shoot up their schools

If every school shooter in the last 20 years was drugged up on bath salts would you want to examine the link?

Is the US GOV National Institutes of Health "attacking" those with issues here?

Quote NIH.GOV: "...these cases need urgent examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries where antidepressants are widely used..."

NIH.GOV: Antidepressants and Violence-Problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Is Michael Moore attacking people or pharma here:

The very maker of Bowling for Columbine says it is an "Extremely Legitimate Question".

When you look at this database (sourced) are you not the least bit troubled?
http://ssristories.com/index.php
Click on the blue 'What' to access a story. Click on a red column heading to sort the index by that column.

[Confusious]

241. If you want to lock someone up on medication

It's a fucking crusade against the mentally ill.

I don't want to hear any more about your fucking gun rights if you're fucking willing to take away someone's freedom for a problem someone has becuase they got unlucky in the fucking gene lottery.

[Th1onein]

248. You forget one very important fact: THE DRUGS HAVE A BLACK BOX WARNING ON THEM.

Simply because you didn't experience, personally, an adverse effect, doesn't mean no one does. And it only takes one to go on a rampage killing.

My entire "crusade" is very obviously about these drugs, not about the people who take them. Because SSRIs don't share the same dangers in terms of toxicity, other adverse effects are often not paid attention to. This is a recipe for disaster.

The FDA has recommended increased monitoring of adolescents taking SSRIs, with office visits once a week for the first month of treatment and every 2 weeks for the second month, followed by 1 visit every 3 months. This stringent schedule has proven difficult to adhere to. One study (see below) showed that only 5% of adolescent patients received this level of attention.

Morrato EH, Libby AM, Orton HD, et al. Frequency of provider contact after FDA advisory on risk of pediatric suicidality with SSRIs. Am J Psychiatry. 2008;165:42–50.

[Confusious]

251. You:

We need to hospitalize people who are prescribed these drugs. Closely monitor them.

At least until it is deemed that they are not a danger to themselves or others. Either that, or use another kind of antidepressant medication.

You want to take people's freedom away just because they take medication, and their right to privacy. Those are your words above.

The people taking them will be the mentally ill. hence, your crusade against the mentally ill.

How do you think this will go down:

"Boss, I need a month off so they can monitor me because I have to take SSRIs"

Really want to guess?

I'll tell you how. The next words would be "Well, I'm gonna have to let you go"

Oh well!

PS. It's nice of you to spend your time parroting the NRA talking points bout the mentally ill. Maybe if people didn't have so many guns, this wouldn't happen. "It's not the guns fault, it's the mentally ill" (video games, rock and roll, etc)

[Th1onein]

257. If the safe administration of these drugs requires hospitalization, then yes, they must be

hospitalized when they first go on them, and when their dosage is changed. YES. It is others' safety, too, that must be taken into account.

It's not as if there are no alternatives to these drugs. There are.

I'm not parroting NRA talking point about ANYTHING, much less about the mentally ill. I am a pacifist. I don't own a gun, don't want to own a gun, and really don't think either the police or the citizenry should own guns. I think we would have a much more peaceful society if no one owned guns. But I'm not going to keep my mouth shut when it comes to the dangers of SSRI meds.

[Confusious]

258. Changing your words?

Agian:

We need to hospitalize people who are prescribed these drugs. Closely monitor them.

At least until it is deemed that they are not a danger to themselves or others. Either that, or use another kind of antidepressant medication.

You don't give a shit what it does to people's lives. More then 35 million in this country take the drugs and you want to treat each and every one of them as a criminal for the actions of 70 people on some bullshit notion, which happens to be false.

Here's something for you: Gun massacres and rampage killings happened before the drugs became publicly available in 1986

got that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

I think you'll find that more then quite a few happened before the drugs were available or there was no evidence they were on medication

Fuck your "theory" and bullshit attitude.

[Th1onein]

261. I haven't changed a thing.

MOST of the school shootings in recent years involved SSRI drugs. That's a fact. Look it up.

Being hospitalized so that one can be assured that there are no adverse effects from the administration of a drug is not treating people like criminals. Far from it. It is ensuring their safety and the safety of the general population.

If you can't win the argument, then you resort to: "Fuck your theory and bullshit attitude"? WOW.

[Confusious]

269. You can't win or lose an argument against a fundy

Whether it be a Christian, muslim, scientologist, gun nut or you.

If I look up you SSRI "theory" I get Alex jones. Not really a hot bed of reliable thinking right there.

Mass shooting have happened in this country since the end of ww2 and before. Some of the deadliest have happened before SSRIs were introduced in 1986.

Now in your "scientific" opinion, if something happened before, and still happened after you introduced "something new", is it the cause of the "something new"? If your car has a pinging sound, and you dump in cleaner, and it has the pinging sound afterward, do you blame the cleaner? You do.

MOST mass shooters aren't mentally Ill according to the FBI.

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/20/12858757-mass-murderers-often-not-mentally-ill-but-seeking-revenge-experts-say?lite

http://www.examiner.com/article/what-fbi-profiles-tell-us-about-school-shooters-and-how-to-prevent-the-next-one-6

So they wouldn't be on any drug, like you say.

Those that are, well again, the FBI says some have given up hope. Why would they give up hope if there are drugs? Because the drugs don't always work.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2718-18560_162-962.html

Most of the 30,000 murders in the United states are becuase of SSRIs? You say MOST deal with SSRIs, I say you have no proof of that, else you would have posted it.

We have been killing each other a lot longer then SSRIs have been around. Strangly enough, the crime rate has been actually going down. Suicides are up in recent years, but trending down.

Since the introduction of SSRis to Japan, suicides are trending down, mass killings becuase of the horrible SSRIs? Nowhere to be seen.

That's why I say fuck your theory and your bullshit attitude. you're a fundie and going to believe what you want to believe no matter what the evidence.

30 million people taking these medications and you want to take thier freedom away and destroy thier lives for the acts of a few, who probably aren't even on the drugs you claim they are.

Wow, just wow indeed.

[Th1onein]

271. ANOTHER personal attack, Confusious! Calling me a fundie? Is Henry Waxman also a fundie?

And what about Elliot Spitzer? Is he a fundie, too? Or Dr. David Healy? Are they all fundies, Confusious? Because they're all saying the same thing that I'm saying about the dangers of these drugs.

Attributing my source to Alex Jones? Who do you think you are kidding here?

You very apparently lack information on this topic. Please, educate yourself.

[thucythucy]

204. Your entire OP is a personal attack

on people who have Asperger's.

Talk about "lowering the level of discourse"!

[obamanut2012]

150. Wrong on all counts

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Because 5% might be adversely affected, we should do away with the drugs and

leave the other 95% untreated???

"Something needs to be done." Yes, something can be done. Improve healthcare in this country. Get us universal healthcare with paid days off for health problems. Get us hospital beds for people switching to new meds or higher doses so we can be monitored for a week. I've had the bad reaction to some SSRIs and I believe that close monitoring rather than "Call me if there is a problem" is the better answer.

[Th1onein]

44. GreenPartyVoter, 5% is 5% too many when they go on rampage killings.

General practicioners are handing out these drugs. There is no monitoring. People need to be hospitalized and watched carefully for any adverse reactions, when they start on these drugs, AND when their dosage changes. We cannot simply hand them out like candy and tell the patient to come back in a week if they don't feel better. It's negligent; especially when you know, from the black box warnings, that these drugs can cause violent behavior.

[GreenPartyVoter]

51. And I gave you a suggestion on how to manage it, but how do we get it to happen? In the meantime not

treating the mentally ill out of fear of what might happen consigns them to hell. That's not right either. There are innocent victims on both sides, whether it's the possible (not guaranteed) shooting victims who _might_ have died from the adverse effects of the meds, and the innocent people who did not ask to have a brain illness but do and who _will_ be in hell without treatment.

I don't know. Perhaps just as this is the time to push for stricter gun laws, it is also time to push for better healthcare esp regarding the mentally ill.

[Th1onein]

91. We need to hospitalize people who are prescribed these drugs. Closely monitor them.

At least until it is deemed that they are not a danger to themselves or others. Either that, or use another kind of antidepressant medication.

[Odin2005]

72. So I should be hospitalized if my Paxi dosage is ever changed?

When I have had my dosages changes I would feel foggy-headed for a couple days and then feel fine.

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. I think it's something we should consider, if not for everyone then at least under certain criteria,

such as uncertainty of diagnosis. I would have been saved weeks of hell if someone had just seen what was happening to me on Cymbalta. It wasn't that the med is bad, it was just bad for _me_ because I was an undiagnosed bipolar person not on mood stabilizers while on an SSRI, which tends to destabilize mood disorders.

I knew something was wrong, but since I lived my whole life assuming that my mental illness was a character flaw and not a physiological disorder, I didn't seek help right away. The drug script was written for me by my GP, who was trying to help me with the deep depression I had entered after losing my mother. She did refer me to a psychiatrist once she knew what was going on, because she doesn't feel qualified to monitor my bipolar disorder, but if I had been hospitalized or at least had to check in daily with outpatient services someone probably would have seen the mixed state and mania I kept bouncing around in and gotten me off the Cymbalta right away.

Of course, in order to do something like this we would need the kind of healthcare and workers' rights you find in socialist countries. Way more paid days off and better health care coverage than we can even dream of here right now.

[Odin2005]

97. Oh, yikes!

[GreenPartyVoter]

112. *great big hugs back*

[Walk away]

228. 11% of Americans ove 12 years old take SSRIs.

That's almost 30,000,000 people! At any given time that would mean millions of people in hospitals starting or changing drug dosages. Now that's crazy!

[GreenPartyVoter]

233. Hence the idea that certain criteria would need to be met.

[Th1onein]

267. EXACTLY, GreenPartyVoter!

GPs are handing out the prescriptions and they don't know what they're doing. I cited a study on here, a few threads down, that stated that less than 5% of patients receiving these medications are monitored EVEN WEEKLY when they are first prescribed. It is a crime against the patients and a crime against society, not to monitor these patients closely. The mentally ill are helpless against their illnesses, it's not their fault if they go ballistic, but it IS the fault of the medical practicioner who did not monitor them closely when they put them on the medication initially, or monitor them when they changed their dosage. Can you imagine being given a medication and waking up one morning to find that you are in jail, having shot and killed a bunch of people? It ruins people's lives forever.

[thucythucy]

207. Five percent do not go on "rampage killings."

That's a ridiculous assertion, on top of a whole pile of ridiculous assertions you've made, including slurs on people with Asperger's. Adverse reactions for these meds can include everything from nausea to hives to constipation. To say five percent go on "rampage killings" is just a nauseating bit of prejudice against people with mental disabilities.

I understand you're on a campaign against big pharma, but demonizing people on medications, and attempting to smear ALL people on various meds as potential mass murderers is irresponsible in the extreme.

Posts like yours have already driven at least one DU member to leave this forum in disgust.

Then again, perhaps that's what you're trying to do.

[Adsos Letter]

27. I didn't realize the medications were the problem

as opposed to the illness they were prescribed to treat.

[green for victory]

63. The National Institutes of Health has done some work on the matter

NIH.GOV: Antidepressants and Violence-Problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

"Recent regulatory warnings about adverse behavioural effects of antidepressants in susceptible individuals have raised the profile of these issues with clinicians, patients, and the public. We review available clinical trial data on paroxetine and sertraline and pharmacovigilance studies of paroxetine and fluoxetine, and outline a series of medico-legal cases involving antidepressants and violence.

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

.....In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal. The rates were highest in children with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the odds ratio of a hostile event was 17 times greater...

Emotional blunting

Another mechanism that may contribute to hostile events is treatment-induced emotional blunting. Several reports published since 1990 have linked SSRI intake with the production of emotional blunting, detachment, or an amotivational syndrome, described in one report as the equivalent to a

“chemical lobotomy”

. It is quite common in clinical practice to find people who say they simply are not bothered any more. Things that would previously have worried them no longer do so...


Mania and psychosis

Another mechanism that may link SSRIs to violence are the manic or psychotic states reported to be induced by drug treatment. These drug-induced states often resolve once the medication is removed. However, the full dimensions of treatment-induced psychotic or manic reactions have yet to be mapped; some may continue for a long period after treatment has stopped . It has recently been estimated that these drug-induced manic or psychotic states may account for up to eight percent of admissions to psychiatric facilities .

...The development of a psychotic episode or of command hallucinations has traditionally been linked to both violence and suicide. The labels for most SSRIs now concede a causal relationship to psychosis and to hallucinations...(more)

Conclusion

The new issues highlighted by these cases need urgent examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries where antidepressants are widely used. The problem is international, and it would make sense to organise an international effort now.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008133#post6

[obamanut2012]

151. There is zero proof he was on any meds

And zero proof he was mentally ill.

ZERO.

[Jamastiene]

28. And for every one incident you mention, there are millions who take

SSRIs and never hurt anyone, and do not have any earthly urge to do so.

I cannot believe people are now going after people with Asperger's and people who take SSRIs. Fucking ridiculous. You seem to be on a tear about SSRIs, specifically, this morning. You've posted several threads bashing SSRIs when no SSRIs have even been mentioned in association in the news at all.

My SSRI that I take has made my life 110% better and I've never been a danger to anyone and never will be. I'm one of millions and millions. If you want to ban SSRIs, you are going to have a legal fight on your hands.

Single poster campaigns using uncorroborated nonscientific assumptions makes DU suck.

[Th1onein]

48. Absolutely, there are many who experience no adverse reactions resulting in violent behavior. BUT

it only takes ONE to take out 27 people in a school setting. ONE.

I'm not "going after" anyone, except the pharmas that make these drugs and the physicians who prescribe them without proper monitoring of their effects.

I'm glad that you are doing well on them. You're fortunate.

"Uncorroborated nonscientific assumptions"? I think not. These drugs have black box warnings on them. Those warnings are there because the regulatory agencies forced the pharmas to PUT them there. Are we not supposed to heed them?

[Zoeisright]

70. Yeah. With a gun.

What about that are you finding so impossible to fucking understand?

[Th1onein]

92. I don't find it hard to understand at all. But there are more weapons out there than just guns.

People that want to do harm to others are going to find ways to do harm to others, guns or no guns.

These killers are victims, too, you know? I doubt very much that they would have done what they did had they not been on these drugs.

[adigal]

167. You are making shit up again!!

1. You have no proof the Lanza boy had aspergers.

2. You have zero idea what, if any, meds he was on.

3. You have no way to "doubt very much that they would have done what they did had they not been on these drugs." See #s 1&2

Really, you are embarrassing yourself with these unsubstantiated claims. Of course, it is your right to embarrass yourself, but you are getting sillier as the thread goes on.

[Th1onein]

194. RIIIIIGHT! Because NO ONE who ever takes drugs does things that they later don't remember doing!

Nor do they ever act in a way that they wouldn't have acted, had they not been on these drugs. Is that what you're saying? WOW.

As to proof that the Lanza boy had Asperger's, at least one report has been published, quoting an official in the investigation, that he did, indeed, have Asperger's. As well, this information was contained in the divorce proceedings. Do you need Moses to come down from the mountaintop with this info carved into stone tablets?

As for "zero idea" what, if any, meds Lanza was on, I think it's pretty fair to say that he was probably on SSRI drugs, since he had Asperger's and these drugs are recommended for the treatment of certain aspects of that syndrome. Not far fetched at all.

[thucythucy]

210. "As to proof that the Lanza boy [he was 20, BTW] had Asperger's

at least one report has been published" which has been debunked on this thread again and again and again and again.

You're on a holy quest against certain drugs, and you're willing to smear an entire class of people, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, to do it.

Disgusting.

[Th1onein]

218. I'm not "smearing" ANYONE. I'm against these drugs because they are dangerous.

I see the pro-gun people trying to "solve" the problem by arming MORE people, which I think is the LAST thing that we need. I see the gun control people trying to "solve" the problem by doing the opposite, and I don't think that guns should even be the subject.

And, by the way, I see no debunking of the official in the investigation who said that Lanza suffered from Asperger's. Nor do I see, anywhere, any debunking of that information in the divorce proceedings.

[thucythucy]

227. "I see no debunking..."

Post 160 on this thread does a nice job, including a link to a source concluding that this "uncle" you keep citing is bogus, and that NO drugs were found at the house of the shooter. Mineral Man has also done fine work debunking your claim. There are others as well.

Basically you're on a witch hunt on behalf of your agenda, and you're smearing people with disabilities while you're at it.

It's a shameful thing to do, and fortunately the overwhelming number of people posting in response to your dubious OP recognize that.

[adigal]

253. SSRIs affect memory? No. It's fair to say he was on them? NO!

He might have been on an entirely different class of drugs. You don't know, and keep presenting conjecture as fact!

[Th1onein]

254. Absolutely they can affect memory.

Why don't you do a little research on them before making statements that are incorrect?

Here is an excerpt from an article from the journal, Primary Psychiatry, that mentions this particular side effect:

In contrast to the drugs recognized as having memory-impairing potential, there are other medications—some among the most commonly prescribed psychotropics—that also have adverse cognitive effects. However, clinical impairment associated with these agents typically goes unrecognized, mainly because clinicians do not realize that these side effects are linked to the drugs. A good example, and especially important because of their extensive use, are the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). From: http://www.primarypsychiatry.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=549

[lunasun]

158. Suicidal tendencies and violent, destructive thoughts are behavioral side effects

that people fought pharma to get listed

[adigal]

130. And SSRIs help a lot of people quit drinking

And drinking is the cause of many deaths and much violence.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

166. +1 nt

[upaloopa]

38. Those folks probably drank soda too something should be done!

[Jennicut]

67. I have been on antidepressants since I was 20. And I am not violent.

I have never even touched a gun in my entire life, I just have recurring depression. Because of the lower levels of serotonin in my brain. These people all were mentally ill and therefore took medication to help themselves. It doesn't always work. I switched meds 4 times to get the right one.

[mopinko]

85. disturbed people often seek help. they often take meds.

correlation is not causation.
like others have said here- you are just beating your pet drum with not facts whatsoever.
please stop it.
and your idea stinks. talk about the government up your ass.

[obamanut2012]

149. Andrea Yates was mentally ill -- she had post partum psychosis

She was told not to have more kids. She did. She went OFF her meds.

Meds didn't cause Yates to kill her children, psychosis and an uber Fundie background, along with her nutball Quiverfull husband, did.

Your post is appalling.

The rest of your post could be kicked down as well.

It is appalling, what you are trying to spread here.

[Th1onein]

272. Andrea Yates was on an SSRI drug.

Her dosage had JUST been changed when she went off the beam and drowned her five children.

[AngryOldDem]

74. Thank you.

My son is on Abilify. He was on Paxil for a time, but that had some side effects.

The Abilify keeps him on an even keel and helps him focus.

He, like you, would no more hurt a fly -- in fact, it upsets him greatly whenever he sees any kind of violent behavior, especially against animals.

This is the last thing Aspies and their families need. And I wish it would stop.

[Posteritatis]

174. I could've sworn all DU lived in constant fear of your impending wrath

Seriously though, there've been some batshit-stupid "The Cause of the latest tragedy is ____" attempts in the past, but "we're blaming it on the guy being treated for Aspergers" has got to be the single batshitstupidmost instance of that I've seen out of mass shootings or similar events since "the trenchcoats did it." Gah.

Of course, people will run with it anyway since it meshes with their prejudices, which is a tragedy of a whole different sort.

[ceile]

20. Nope.

Nice try.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Please, please stop demonizing Asperger's and SSRIs.

Most people with Asperger's wouldn't hurt anyone, and all the hullaballoo about SSRIs is unnecessary. We know that some people have trouble with them. I am one of those people who use them, and I haven't killed anyone and neither has anyone else in my family who is on them.

This is a Venn diagram situation, not a black and white all or nothing one.

[Jamastiene]

30. Thank you. +999 trillion

SSRIs have improved my quality of life a hundred fold. I wouldn't go back to life before the SSRI I currently take for nothing. I have literally been liberated by my SSRI prescription. And I HAVE been around guns my entire life and would NEVER hurt anyone else OR myself pre or post SSRI prescription. We are 2 of millions and millions too.

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. I am so glad they are helping! I wish mine did a bit more, but since I am bipolar 2 it's bit tricky

finding something that works.

I inherited guns, and I made a choice not to keep them in my home with my 2 curious young teen sons, not just because who knows if they will get my bipolar condition (we have a higher incidence of suicide, SSRIs or not) but also just the drama of being a teen is enough to send some kids looking for a way out. (There's a story of a young man who suffered his first heartbreak and shot himself in his truck that just stays with me, so the guns stay out of my home.)

[Th1onein]

49. I am not demonizing Asperger's or any other mental illness or syndrome.

I am saying that we need to monitor the consumers of these drugs very closely, in a hospital setting, when they begin taking these medications, and when the dosage is changed.

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. Then please edit your OP to reflect that, because right now it doesn't read that way to me at all.

[Th1onein]

89. I don't think that the OP needs any editing at all.

Sorry you are misreading it.

[liberalhistorian]

146. Yes, it does. It needs to

reflect the fact that THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE HAD ASPERGER'S AND NO EVIDENCE OF AN OFFICIAL DIAGNOSIS AND NO EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS TAKING AD'S. Is that clear enough for you?

[Th1onein]

196. I'm sorry, but your information is incorrect.

Is that clear enough for you?

[liberalhistorian]

200. Where is the official confirmation that he AS?

And, even if he did, where is the evidence that he was taking AD's? He was not under the care of a psychiatrist and there's no medical evidence at this point that he was taking AD's. You are endangering the millions who use AD's with success and your fearmongering is truly shameful and shameless.

[Walk away]

229. I doubt that anyone with a grain of critical thought could possibly take the OP seriously.

Although I do agree that demonizing people who aren't "perfect" is pretty low.

[Th1onein]

234. Go look it up yourself. I'm not doing your homework for you.

And he WAS under the care of a psychiatrist. Just this morning, there was a report that his mother was looking into having him committed involuntarily. Do you think that you can do that without the help of a psychiatrist?

I'm not fearmongering. But I'm not going to keep my mouth shut about the dangers of these drugs, either. And it's NOT about endangering the millions who use this class of antidepressant. It's about getting the medical professionals to do their job and MONITOR these patients the way that they should be monitoring them, when they prescribe these drugs to them, so that the REST of us aren't endangered.

If these drugs have a 4.5% rate of adverse events and there are 31 million ADULTS in the US (note that this figure doesn't include children) taking them, do the math. Is it any wonder we're seeing an explosion in these types (rampage) of killings?

[AngryOldDem]

75. Could have fooled me.

And guess what -- most people ARE monitored very closely and see psychiatrists so they are being monitored.

Please -- people with Aspergers have a tough enough row to hoe. Posts like yours only feed the ignorance about this form of autism.

[Th1onein]

90. I am sorry you have been fooled, then.

It should be obvious to anyone that I have not demonized anyone with Aspergers and that I am demonizing the wholesale handing out of these very dangerous drugs to anyone who is "depressed," and with little or no monitoring, in many cases. These drugs are prescribed by GENERAL PRACTICIONERS with little or no followup. They are dangerous. They have black box warnings on them for a reason. But no one is paying attention.

[AngryOldDem]

243. It's too late now, but you should have edited the title to your post, then.

That's been pointed out umpteen times here, but someone isn't paying attention.

The subtext is clear: Asberger's = dangerously mentally ill.

[Th1onein]

244. The title to the OP is not demonizing anyone. THERE IS NO SUBTEXT except to people who can't

or WON'T read the rest of the post. It is very clear, in the title, and in the body of the message, itself, that the post is about antidepressants, not Asperger's.

[thucythucy]

103. You absolutely are demonizing people with Asperger's.

The title of your thread seeks to link Asperger's with a mass murderer, strongly implying one is related to the other.

This despite the fact that we don't know for a fact the shooter had Asperger's, don't know for a fact if he was on medication or what type of medication he was on. All of this is based on speculation, and your own prejudice against people with Asperger's.

We DO know for a fact that the shooter had guns. Yet this is the part you seem most to want to minimize, with your "he might have used other weapons" screed.

To link Asperger's to mass murder in this way is irresponsible, hurtful to people who have the condition and their families, and reinforces negative stereotypes that people with all manner of disabilities have been fighting for centuries.

Stop it. In the name of common decency, stop it.

[liberalhistorian]

148. THANK YOU.

As the mother of a young adult aspie son who has suffered enough discrimination and harassment and who is now suffering discrimination and harassment specifically because of this, I am truly sickened and disgusted by this OP. There is NO evidence other than speculation and hearsay by a couple of policemen who thought it was an explanation for his "social awkwardness" (as if every single person who's socially uncomfortable is AS), a former classmate who thought they heard someone say to someone else that he was AS, and a medical examiner who's jumped the gun and said he was "told" of such a diagnosis but admitted he had no definitive evidence for it (then why the fuck did he say anything in the first place?).

Aspies have a difficult enough time in life, especially with hate groups like FAAAS continually spewing their hateful propaganda and openly advocating discrimination against aspies, without this kind of shit. This OP is virulently anti-choice and wants abortion to be illegal and criminalized, believing that that will magically somehow stop all abortions, so it's no surprise that she's impervious to facts and reason.

[thucythucy]

184. I'm so sorry to hear of the difficulties your family has encountered and continues to encounter.

I second everything you say. This rampant prejudice against "Aspies" (I'd never heard that term before!) is part and parcel with the oppression of people with disabilities down through the ages.

My thoughts are with you, and I hope you and your son come through this period of horror with your hearts and courage intact.

Best wishes.

[liberalhistorian]

187. Thanks. "Aspies" is a term

that ASAN (Autistic Self-Advocacy Network) coined, as a kind of "endearment" or way to "take back" some of the negativity associated with AS. It's used frequently on the website for those with AS, www.wrongplanet.net, and there's also another AS site called www.aspiesforfreedom.com. Both of these sites and others show the positive aspects of AS and the fact that many of our scientific, social, invention, literary, artistic and musical advances and works are thanks to those with some form of AS.

[thucythucy]

188. Thanks!

I'll definitely check those out.

"Aspies." I love it!

[thucythucy]

185. I just wanted to add that Neoma

has posted a thread on just this issue, the OP is "This is called bigotry, ableism, and discrimination" that calls out some of this awful stuff. I'd post the link but for some reason my links don't seem to work tonight, but if you search the site for that thread I'm sure you'll find it.

Best wishes.

[Odin2005]

73. The OP has been saying stupid things about SSRIs for years.

[GreenPartyVoter]

84. Yeah, there seem to be a few people who feel similarly.

[liberalhistorian]

114. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

My now-grown son is an aspie and he can't stand to even see bugs squashed, much less anyone hurt. This OP has a tendency toward black-and-white thinking, but this is even worse than usual. And there is still NO official evidence that he was officially known to have AS. The media and even the police and medical people involved have been very irresponsible in pushing this, based on stereotypes, when there's no evidence yet. My son is already dealing with harassment and discrimination over this, in addition to all of the other problems he faces with AS, and it infuriates and sickens me. As does this totally irresponsible OP.

[GreenPartyVoter]

126. *hugs* I have a son that is PDD, but has a lot of Aspie-like features as one

therapist put it, so it just kills me to see OPs like this one. He is just the sweetest kid.

[MineralMan]

23. Here's the deal: You don't know anything about this.

We do not know what, if any, mental problems the shooter had, nor do we know what medications he was taking.

What that means is that you're engaging in wild speculations from a basis of no knowledge whatsoever. That's irresponsible, in the extreme.

Antidepressants save countless lives each year, by treating depression that can lead to suicide. They are not, in themselves, responsible for this shooting, and we do not even know if the shooter was taking them.

More information will emerge from this case. Right not, we know damn-all about the shooter, any illnesses he may have had, or any medications he may or may not have been taking.

Your irresponsible speculation causes harm to people who are taking, and who benefit greatly from taking antidepressant medication.

Please stop doing this.

[Jamastiene]

32. Thank you. n/t

[MineralMan]

39. Not a problem at all.

I know several people who are living absolutely normal lives because of SSRIs and other medications. The irresponsibility of assigning those medications the blame in this massacre cannot be overstated.

As a matter of fact, since we don't even know if the shooter was taking medications of any kind, this original post and ones like it should never have been made in the first place.

[Th1onein]

50. No, here's the deal. If you are on an SSRI antidepressant, you are TWELVE times more likely to

commit suicide. The shooter in Connecticut had Asperger's and SSRI drugs are COMMONLY used to treat Aspergers. It is not irresponsible to speculate, given the facts that we do know, that SSRI drugs might have been at the root of the violence.

[riderinthestorm]

66. NO! The "root of the violence" is the guns and our gun culture. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. It's very irresponsible of you to speculate like this

You are conflating suicide and mass murder. That, just for a start, ought to get you to self-delete the OP of this thread. As well as that, you have no idea what drugs, if any, Lanza was on. And your '12 times' figure is disputed by the government - they say about twice: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/child-and-adolescent-mental-health/antidepressant-medications-for-children-and-adolescents-information-for-parents-and-caregivers.shtml .

[Odin2005]

76. SSRI's are never used to "treat" Asperger's.

It is used to treat the depression and anxiety a lot of us on the spectrum have, big difference. I used to have panic attacks constantly, I have had none since I started taking Paxil. NONE.

You are jumping on sketchy anecdotes in order to push your usual anti-SSRI nonsense you have spouted on DU for years.

[Th1onein]

88. Please don't split hairs. SSRIs are often used to treat certain aspects of Aspergers.

Look it up.

[Odin2005]

98. I take Paxil for ANXIETY, not my Asperger's

[Th1onein]

141. And your point?

SSRI medications are used for a whole host of symptoms and pathology. Anxiety is one of them. There are also aspects of Asperger's that these drugs are used to treat.

[liberalhistorian]

180. But, even if true, that doesn't matter in this case

because there's no evidence beyond speculation fed by hearsay that he even had AS, nor is there any evidence that he was on any kind of AD. Since you refuse to acknowledge such FACTS and either edit or delete your OP, we are going to continue to hammer away at that on this thread. I hope you realize that such shameless fearmongering will only serve to further demonize and scapegoat those with AS, like my son, and endanger those who take and benefit from AD's.

[Th1onein]

192. No one is scapegoating Asperger sufferers. This is very obvious.

If you can't see that, then that's your problem, not mine.

I've seen at least one report from an unnamed official in the investigation, that Lanza DID, indeed, have Asperger's. Also, it was in the record of the divorce proceedings, so I think that there's a pretty good case for the FACT that he had Asperger's.

As to whether he was taking an antidepressant, it seems a pretty good bet, since SSRI drugs are often used to treat certain aspects of Asperger's. I don't think that's wild speculation at all. It's simply good logic.

I'm not changing my OP, because there is nothing wrong with it. As to your threat to "hammer away," have at it.

[thucythucy]

212. The fact that multiple people on this thread

insist that you ARE scapegoating people with Asperger's should show you it's not "obvious" that you aren't.

"...it seems a pretty good bet."

Incredible. Just incredible.

The fact that this thread hasn't been locked by now is a disgrace.

[Th1onein]

217. A lot of people insisted that the world was going to end yesterday, too, but that didn't make it

true. Your logic fails.

The only thing being scapegoated here is antidepressant drugs; particularly the SSRI class of these drugs.

[thucythucy]

225. So now you're comparing every DU'er who has called you out on your irresponsible

attack on people with Asperger's an end-of-the-world fanatic.

It's good though to see so many people on this thread condemning your absurd leaps of "logic." If nothing else your OP is a good case in point that prejudice against people with disabilities, particularly mental disabilities, is still an enormous problem that needs to be confronted whenever it rears its ugly little head. I'm glad to see so many DUers recognize this, and have confronted you on it, even if you refuse to see past your own agenda.

[liberalhistorian]

215. The hell you're not scapegoating them,

and with speculation, hearsay and innuendo, all to serve your own black and white agenda. You say you want all aspies and others who take AD's to be hospitalized for monitoring. You say you want aspies and others who take AD's to be entered into an official database (and we all know just how safely private those things are, right?) You make assumptions based on speculation and he said, she said, maybe they said, I think I may have heard something, bullshit. And you say you're not scapegoating Aspies, like my son? Yeah, right. He endures enough discrimination and harassment and difficulty, he doesn't need more official bullshit monitoring and databases denying him a decent life, etc. Fuck that.

NAME this 'unnamed official." Name his part in the investigation. Explain HOW you got to see this "report." Unless it included an actual, official diagnosis from a medical professional who has that on the record, you're blowing smoke out your ass in shameless fearmongering. The medical examiner has admitted that he was only told the man had AS, that he had no confirmation. Other people who've speculated, including police, have admitted that they don't know, they're only going by what they think based on what others have told them. Allegations in divorce records are NOT always, or even usually, facts; having once been in the legal field, I'm more than aware of that. And none of the aspies I know, not my son, nor any of his friends, or any of the others I know from groups, etc., have ever taken any AD's, and no one I know who's ever taken them, including me at one time, had any kind of bad experience with them.

[Th1onein]

255. You're wrong. Simply wrong.

I have not here, or ever, scapegoated anyone with Asperger's or any other mental illness. To insist that is true is simply a lie.

Many Asperger sufferers are treated with SSRI drugs. It's not cold speculation to say that Lanza was probably treated with these drugs, as well, since they are a common treatment for some aspects of the disease.

Like it or not, those are the facts.

And, by the way, these were not "allegations," per se. This was during their divorce mediation. Are you saying that one or the other party lied about their son having Aspergers, during the mediation?

[NiteOwll]

104. I've never been told I could take medication

for my Asperger's. I can for ADD or anxiety, though I choose not to.

[Th1onein]

143. Do a cross reference search on SSRI drugs and Asperger's.

Here, I'll help you--here's a link to articles and reviews on this topic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Asperger%20syndrome%20AND%20SSRI

Just because you don't take an SSRI for your Asperger's doesn't mean others don't.

[NiteOwll]

171. Your sources don't prove your point.

In fact, they prove mine. SSRI drugs will only treat some of the symptoms of Asperger's as well as other disorders.

[Th1onein]

193. You very apparently don't understand the point that I was trying to make. In fact, you reiterate my

point, exactly. "SSRI drugs will only treat some of the symptoms of Asperger's...." THAT'S what they are used for, in terms of Asperger's treatment. THAT'S exactly my point.

Thank you for reiterating it.

[liberalhistorian]

198. Excuse me, but will you PLEASE

acknowledge that there is NO evidence beyond speculation fueled by hearsay that he had AS, or that he was on any drugs, let alone AD's? You are perpetuating misinformation and inaccuracies and you've been advised as to that many times in this thread; you have chosen to ignore all of them, probably since they don't fit your preconceived notions and agenda.

[Th1onein]

236. Excuse me, but will YOU PLEASE

Inform yourself.

[likesmountains 52]

247. you said it!

[liberalhistorian]

116. Jesus H. Christ, ONE MORE TIME.

I know you think you know everything and the rest of us are just dumb hicks who refuse to bow at your sacred feet, but, once again, THERE IS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT HE HAD ASPERGER'S. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF AN OFFICIAL DIAGNOSIS. AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS ON AD'S.

For someone who claims that others don't look at the facts, you sure are batting for zero here. No, you just want to use this to further your campaign against drugs that help millions of people function and live their lives. One-size-fits-all solutions never work.

[GaYellowDawg]

120. That's about 12 times the bullshit I need to hear.

Depression runs in my family. Thanks to SSRIs, we haven't had a single suicide in 3 generations.

[adigal]

147. I think you have it backwards

How many times more likely is suicide in untreated depression? You are confused. Depression is the cause of suicide. What healthy person goes on SSRIs?

[thucythucy]

211. "The shooter in Connecticut..." There you go again.

[Walk away]

231. I guess the fact that a high percentage of people on SSRIs are depressed to begin with has nothing..

to do with the high suicide rate. I hear that a huge percentage of women taking pre-natal vitamins give birth to babies! What are the odds?

[upaloopa]

29. This is a topic that everyone here has an opinion about

Mine is that from over 20 years taking antidepressants I haven't killed anyone. Nor have millions of others taking antidepressants.
You have no direct cause and effect link here just an assumption.
Mental illness is a huge problem in this country because of the misinformation that abounds.
Someone who could be helped often does not get that help because they follow the guidance that comes from misinformation.

[BlueStreak]

31. Frankly, I don't see that as being very decisive

If you want to start looking for who has personality weaknesses and other flaws that make them less than reliable, you will find a very long list. There are days when I am driving that I am glad I don't have any firearms, and normally I feel I am a rather composed person.

It really is the guns, and how we celebrate them.

The Tuscon shooter was nuts. Most of the rest don't strike me as being that far away from what would pass as "normal"

That is the big fallacy about saying "it is a mental health issue, not a gun issue." If that is true, tell me why these killers are not recognized and dealt with before the fact then?

Basically, mental health has the same problem as guns. We don't want anybody telling us whether we are fit to have a gun. We don't want anybody else telling us we are nuts. How do you pass a law that says we deal with these shooter BEFORE they shoot? How many liberties are you willing to give up? If somebody sees you post a strong opinion on DU, can they turn you in to the authorities as "a potential risk to society"? Is that what we want?

We should deal with the most basic gun law issues first. We know that can make a real difference.

[Cleita]

35. Something slipped through the cracks here and maybe everyone

did their best but missed something with this boy. The fact is though that he had access to an arsenal that really in a sane world he wouldn't have had access to. That is the real elephant in the room and we can't ignore it any longer.

[gkhouston]

36. No. It strikes me as dim-witted scapegoating. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Except it's not "often treated with antidepressants"

it's often comorbid with depression, which *is* treated with antidepressants. Autism is a neurological condition; it is a difference of brain wiring. It is not intrinsically an "illness". Nor is it something that can be "treated" with medication. Comorbid conditions like depression, anxiety, and PTSD, however (which are all very common among high-functioning autistics) can be.

And at this point it's not, so far as I know, known whether the shooter had any kind of formal psychiatric or psychological evaluation, or whether he was taking any kind of psychiatric medication.

[Th1onein]

268. Yes, it is.

Certain aspects of Aspergers is treated with SSRI drugs:

•For preoccupations, rituals and compulsions: SSRIs (fluvoxamine, fluoxetine, paroxetine), Tricyclic Antidepressants (clomipramine)

[Motown_Johnny]

40. Would you prefer that people with mental illnesses received no treatment?

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Autism is not a mental illness.

It is a developmental disorder.

[HooptieWagon]

82. It appears he had developed a mental illness in addition.

He definately had something major wrong in his brain. Even moderate mental illness doesn't make people murder their mother and 26 others.

[Posteritatis]

175. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't with this crowd

If they aren't getting treatment, they're clearly evil crazies and need to be locked away for our safety; if they are getting treatment, then they're either admitting they're evil crazies or they're being turned into evil crazies by said treatment.

The mental gymnastics people will undergo so they can continue to look down on one quarter of the population is nauseating at best. I'm really not looking forward to "they exist - and worse, many of them are being treated!" being a popular meme through this, or the next few times something like this happens.

[SidDithers]

43. Sounds like Scientologist, anti-pychiatry bullshit to me...nt

Sid

[dipsydoodle]

54. There is apparently nothing whatsoever at present to suggest

he was taking anything at all.

As such the manner in which Aspergers may be treated is completely incidental.

[nessa]

56. They haven't found any evidence that he was on any medication. There was none in the home...

http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Search-yields-gaming-electronic-evidence-but-no-4125717.php

[Warpy]

59. No.

[backscatter712]

62. Your tinfoil's on too tight.

Stop demonizing mental illness.

[pinto]

64. Experts: No link between Asperger's, violence

Experts: No link between Asperger's, violence
By By Stephanie Nano | Associated Press – Sat, Dec 15, 2012

NEW YORK (AP) — While an official has said that the 20-year-old gunman in the Connecticut school shooting had Asperger's syndrome, experts say there is no connection between the disorder and violence.

Asperger's is a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.

"There really is no clear association between Asperger's and violent behavior," said psychologist Elizabeth Laugeson, an assistant clinical professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Little is known about Adam Lanza, identified by police as the shooter in the Friday massacre at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school. He fatally shot his mother before going to the school and killing 20 young children, six adults and himself, authorities said.

<snip>

She said those with Asperger's tend to focus on rules and be very law-abiding.

"There's something more to this," she said. "We just don't know what that is yet."

After much debate, the term Asperger's is being dropped from the diagnostic manual used by the nation's psychiatrists. In changes approved earlier this month, Asperger's will be incorporated under the umbrella term "autism spectrum disorder" for all the ranges of autism.

AP Writer Matt Apuzzo contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/experts-no-between-aspergers-violence-014413244.html
_________________________________________________

Asperger's information: http://1.usa.gov/3tGSp5

[Zoeisright]

69. No.

It's the fucking guns. Christ.

[No Compromise]

77. why isn't the media at least asking the question? Isn't that their job?

The fact they are pretending that is not even in question is highly suspicious, but makes sense considering the vast amounts they are paid by Big Pharma.

[jeff47]

179. They aren't asking because there's no evidence he was on any drugs.

A guy pretending to be an uncle made that claim to a tabloid. He lied to them - he was not in any way connected to the family.

[ecstatic]

78. So I finally read the complete list of symptoms for Aspergers,

and I don't see anything on that list that justifies the use of mind altering drugs. I don't get it. Yes, some people are shy and awkward. Some people are introverts. Why does that require drugs? Maybe the people around them should be forced to change and be more accepting of personality differences?

[HooptieWagon]

79. We don't know what, if any, treatment he was getting.

There has been no mention, except the mother was with him almost 24/7 to take care of him. Maybe she though he could be treated with only motherly love?

[DotGone]

83. No, I'm an aspie who has taken antidepressants off and on

The antidepressants were not prescribed for the Asperger's. It was prescribed for the depression that is comorbid with Asperger's. When you go through life being shat upon and discriminated against, life pretty much sucks. I'm pretty much tired of hearing AS mentioned as a reason for the shooting. It's much more probable that we aspies just kill ourselves than other people. Now instead of just having people view us as weird freaks, they're gonna think of us as potential mass murderers. Gee thanks.

[Blue Idaho]

86. I think your mind reading act needs a little work...

Let's try a little experiment, what am I thinking about you and the drugs you're taking right now?

Not. Even. Close.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

94. Fox News And The New York Times Abet Media Effort To Falsely Link Autism With CT Shooting

The murders committed in Newtown, Connecticut this week are an unimaginable national tragedy that’s still sinking in, and while there’s little the news media can do to help, they should, at the very least, do no harm at a time like this. Unfortunately, in addition to piles of reported “facts” that have wound up not to be true, our news media has been engaged, to varying degrees, in a campaign to falsely link autism with the sort of violence that resulted in this unthinkable event. Fox News’ Hannity program and The New York Times are among the latest to err on the extreme end of this spectrum.

The gold standard for irresponsibly and falsely linking autism with mass murder still belongs to MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough, who, in the wake of the mass shooting at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, told his audience that killers like Aurora shooter James Holmes are “somewhere, I believe, on the autism scale,” and that while he didn’t know if this was true of Holmes specifically, “it happens more often than not.”

Scarborough never corrected his utterly false and damaging statement on-air, but in that case, there were no other media figures mentioning autism, so Scarborough was the lone voice of irresponsibility. As I wrote extensively at that time, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind linking Autism Spectrum Disorders with criminal violence.
http://www.mediaite.com/print/fox-news-and-the-new-york-times-abet-media-effort-to-falsely-link-autism-with-ct-shooting/

Autism, Empathy, And Violence: Asperger's Does Not Explain The Connecticut Shooting

Some news coverage in the last 48 hours has mentioned autism in the context of the tragedy in Connecticut, particularly referencing shooter Adam Lanza's possible Asperger’s or "high-functioning" autism. Talking heads have brought up the "empathy" factor when discussing autism, and I'd like to set some of the record on that straight.

Empathic ability comes in two forms. One is the social ability to recognize the emotion someone is feeling by following social cues, subtle vocal fluctuations, and other nonverbal communications. Psychopaths, for example, might be quite good at reading people, at applying this cognitive empathy and then possibly exploiting it. Autistic people, on the other hand, generally tend not to be that great at this kind of recognition in non-autistic people. After all, the hallmark of autism is difficulty navigating this territory and registering the meaning of a nonverbal language that is unfamiliar to them. Worth noting, non-autistic people also seem to struggle with reading the nonverbal communication of autistic people. It can also be difficult for autistic people to automatically place themselves situationally in the other person's shoes and intuit the emotion the other person feels, although again, non-autistic people seem to struggle to do this for autistics. Autism does not, however, preclude a person from understanding a clear communication about emotion.

The other form of empathy follows on the recognition of the emotion, whether the message comes through verbally or nonverbally, intuitively or not. That's the form in which you not only can intellectualize the person's emotion but also can internalize and feel what they are feeling, known as emotional empathy. The gap for psychopaths comes in here: They seem to lack this emotional empathy. But whatever deficits autism might carry in terms of recognition, it makes up for in terms of the shared feeling. My experience has been that once an autistic becomes aware of the other person's emotion, the feeling comes without a social construct, naked and in full, unmodulated. Certainly, the expression of their feeling can be more intense. Research shows that people with Asperger's are not that great at cognitive empathy but that their emotional empathy does not differ from people without Asperger's, whereas children with conduct disorder show the reverse pattern.

<snip>

Planned, social violence is not a feature of autism. Indeed, autistic people are far more likely to have violence done against them than to do violence to others. No one knows as of this writing what drove the Connecticut shooter to kill 20 children and 7 adults, point blank, although obvious candidates are rage, hate, a huge grudge against humanity and some triggering event. But if he turns out to have been someone on the spectrum, I'd like to remind everyone that autism is not an explanatory factor in his actions. And that autistic people like my son are fully, fully capable of empathizing with those who were the target of them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/autism-empathy-connecticut-shooting_n_2314769.html

And the results of all this lovely uninformed speculation about autism.

Troubling legacy of Sandy Hook may be backlash against kids with autism

(TIME.com) -- On the first day back to school after 20 first-graders and six adults died at a Connecticut elementary school, students at a Utah middle school gathered to discuss the massacre.

A boy raised his hand. "The reason why this man shot little kids is because he has autism," he said.

Tricia Nelson's seventh-grade son was at the assembly. He's shy, not the kind of child apt to speak in public, but his hand darted up in response. "Autism doesn't make people shoot other people," he said.

At 12, Nelson's son is somewhat of an expert on autism. His younger brother, who is 10, has a severe form of the neurodevelopmental disorder. He doesn't speak and he attends a school for special needs. But he is not violent, said his older brother; he would not kill anyone.

"He was in tears when he was telling me what happened," says Nelson of her older son. She is an events organizer for Autism Speaks, the world's largest autism research and advocacy group. "He said, 'This boy is going to spread rumors.'"

After Nelson's son spoke up, a teacher seconded his comments. She urged the students not to make assumptions. Yet as the country struggles to come to grips with the loss of life at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, people with autism are finding themselves the focus of misunderstanding and more than a little scrutiny.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/health/shooting-autism/

Think about what you're saying. This sort of speculation to push an agenda at the expense of smearing innocent people is not acceptable. Words have power, and we should never use them to hurt an already abused demographic of our population. Which if you mean to be doing so or not, is exactly what your doing with this type of misinformed speculation.

[Butterbean]

106. Thank you. This has been one of my fears (there are so many) since this broke.

My autistic son on meds has enough stigma and adversity to face due to ignorance and misunderstanding, thankyouverymuch. The last thing my family and the families of the other autistic children I know need right now is to have fingers pointed at the medications that help our children to function on a day to day basis. Hell, they help ME to function on a day to day basis. Were it not for SSRI's, I don't know if I would still be on this earth. They were a life saver for me when I started them in college, and have been ever since.

Parents of autistic children agonize over whether or not to put their children on these meds. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes, you have no idea what you're talking about and what me and mine have gone through.

[thucythucy]

232. Thank you for this post.

At first I was discouraged that this OP wasn't shut down or at least hidden, but seeing all the DUers come on to denounce this prejudice against people with disabilities has been most heartening. That you took the time and trouble to post these links speaks volumes about your empathy for people who are oppressed and marginalized already.

"Words have power, and we should never use them to hurt an already abused demographic of our population."

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

Thanks again!

[dipsydoodle]

96. There is at present nothing whatsoever to confirm he was on anything at all.

Previous posts on the subject have generally landed up being self deleted. I would suggest you do the same.

[SidDithers]

99. It's the fucking conspiracy theory that just won't die...

Sid

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. I've taught lots of kids with Aspergers.

None were on anti-depressants.

[MadrasT]

105. Yet another thread goes straight to the trashcan. n/t

[Orangepeel]

108. Even if true, correlation isn't causality

On the face of it, it seems quite likely to me that someone with severe mental problems would be given a variety of drugs as different treatments were tried. It is possible that some drugs made things worse, but just as likely that they just didn't make them better.

If he was on antidepressants, the only thing that would prove to me would be that antidepressants can't always prevent murdurous rampages. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken for problems they can prevent.

[rox63]

110. Speaking as someone who has taken anti-depressants for many years...

Please DO NOT generalize about the great majority of people who take these (often life-saving) medications, or about people with Autism Spectrum Disorders. While I do not have an ASD, I have known a few people with ASD's, and they are each intelligent, kind-hearted, and would not hurt anyone.

I have been on anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications for most of the last 20 years. These meds have literally saved my life, and I would not harm anyone. Each time I was prescribed a medication, I was seeing both a psychiatrist and a counselor. Once things were stable for a while, my prescriptions were kept up by my primary care doctor. But if any problems arose, or a change or adjustment was needed to the meds, I always went back to the psych professionals until things stabilized.

[get the red out]

134. YES - This!

I tried to "be good" and went for 18 years without anti-depressants and finally admitted that I had NOT "outgrown" my problem when my Dad passed away while my own husband was quite ill, and I knew I'd better get some HELP. I literally didn't know what I didn't know, that life didn't have to be non-stop anxiety and unhappiness. In the past 2 years I perform better at work, am far more involved in life activities, am around a great many more people, and I don't ponder suicide many times every day. I'm getting tired of having it inferred that I'm supposed to be some potential mindless killer because of a life saving medication.

AND my little niece has Aspergers, and she is so sweet she corrected me when I said, in jest, that the boy who pulled her hair in her Kindergarten class was a bad little boy; she told me "No, he just didn't know it hurt. He isn't bad." I don't want to hear anyone infer that precious baby is going to be dangerous!

[Marrah_G]

115. None of us knows what he is diagnosed with,

how he was being treated or what medications he was on.

[Starry Messenger]

117. No.

It strikes me as more remarkable that an anti-choice, anti-ssri poster with heavy Internet ties to right wingers has gotten away with posting anti-scientific bs here for years.

[obamanut2012]

121. You beat me to it, Starry

Exactly what I was thinking when I just read the OP.

Especially since her entire OP is nothing but speculation and demonziing a class of drugs that has saved people's lives and the quality of those lives.

[liberalhistorian]

123. Thank you!

I've often thought that as well. I remember one of the threads a couple months ago when she was arguing her vehement anti-abortion views, and her actual belief that women should never have control over that decision, that it wasn't their decision to make and that making it illegal would really stop it. Unreal.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

129. ^^^

This.

Also, a for the OP, which has a complete lack of proof in it.

[Skidmore]

125. It strikes me as important that we should be focusing on adequate mental health treatment

for all who need it.

[kiva]

127. Does it strike anyone as important that there are a lot of red herrings being posted?

Gun violence is often treated with...you guessed it, changing the topic.

[Aerows]

135. It's pretty amazing

that gun violence is caused by everything under the sun except for, you guessed it, guns. NONE of it could POSSIBLY be due to ease of access and weapons with a high rate of fire. Absolutely NONE of it. No, it's everything but the guns.

[bowens43]

128. No. Not important. The easy accersability to guns and ammunition are the root cause. nt

[Aerows]

132. Millions of people take antidepressants

Millions of people greatly benefit from them. What the is your point, here? You have to remember that most of these take place when the gunman is a male aged 18-25. That's precisely the time when schizophrenia causes many of them to have psychotic breaks if they aren't receiving treatment for their real health problem. Antidepressants or no antidepressants can't help that, only aggressive treatment of their schizophrenia.

Not to mention, keeping weapons that can kill quickly and far too efficiently out of their hands.

[TwilightGardener]

142. Since when are antidepressants used to "treat" Aspergers?

My cousin with Aspergers happened to be on meds for ADHD--and to help with Aspergers, she had speech and other types of therapy to help with communication and interpersonal skills--don't think she was ever on antidepressants. Because she wasn't depressed.

[obamanut2012]

153. There is no proof he was an Aspie nor was on meds

Or proof he had a mental illness. None. Zero.

Your OP is disturbing and out of bounds. I would say you should self delete, but I know your history well enough to know you are a True Believer of what you write, regardless of whether or not facts back it up ie your views on abortion, and how it is "homocide," and lots of misinformation about that. Why should this topic be any different?

[Michigan Alum]

155. Antidepressants do a lot more good than harm. The people taking them are often in crisis before

taking them. I say this as a person who has worked in mental health for 10 plus years and takes them myself. The only time I had ANY issues at all (minor issues) was when I was going off of them. There is research study after research study showing that they are a life saver to many, many people. I get tired of people who don't know the research behind things who demonize something that helps millions of people.

[Michigan Alum]

156. He was not under a psychiatrist's care so he was NOT on any antidepressants.

[liberalhistorian]

159. Nor is there any proof other than

hearsay and speculation fed by stereotypes than he had Asperger's. But the lack of proof or evidence for a fact has never stopped this OP before. This is nothing but shameless fearmongering that will make things worse for aspies and those taking AD's, worse than they already are for many of them, including my aspie son. He's already experiencing discrimination and harassment over this, although he experiences it in general from ignorant people, even educated ones, and hate groups such as FAAAS, which actively promotes misinformation and stereotypes and advocates discrimination in policy, the legal and social services system, etc., against aspies.

[liberalhistorian]

161. One more time, I ask in the name of

reason and facts that you edit or delete your OP. There is NO evidence other than speculation fed by hearsay that he had AS, and there is no evidence that he was on AD's. This is nothing but shameless fearmongering on your part which will affect millions of people like my aspie son and those on AD's who desperately need them and who function and live quite well with them.

And, if OP refuses to do so, I ask why is this thread, then, still being allowed?

[JohnnyLib2]

162. I see it as irresponsibilty, either way.

[liberalhistorian]

163. Indeed. But then again,

this OP is a staunch anti-choicer who wants all abortion to be illegal and criminalized and who believes that, once it's illegal, abortions will somehow just magically suddenly cease completely. There's no real arguing with that kind of black and white thinking.

[tama]

165. Brave New World

In Aldous Huxleys 'Brave New World' working class is fed soma pills to keep them happy and working. When we had school shootings here in Finland, there was big discussion about the pill culture together with our collective responsibility for creating a society where such things happen. The national head of psychiatry defended his field by stating that the pill culture has done succesfully what the neoliberal Brave New World state has ordered, used pills to keep people able to work for the system and cope with it. Ie. anti revolutionary "psychiatry" in preference for non adaptive and frankly awfully insane status quo of path of collective suicide.

I believe we all agree that the pills don't cure the cause of depression and anxiety, just alleviate the symptoms when they work as intended. The underlying causes vary lot individually, but at general level, stress and anxiety and depression are very natural and healthy reactions to living in and trying to cope with an awfully fucked up system. From point of healing, alleviation of symptoms is double edged sword, some situations it is beneficial to give chance for healing process to start, in other situations it can postpone and block the healing process.

[liberalhistorian]

168. You've gotta be kidding me.

Depression, anxiety, and mental illnesses are often caused by chemical imbalances; they are physiological in nature. Now, there are some situational causes of them, obviously, but the majority are biochemical in which no amount of vitamins, therapy, exercise, etc., will suffice. AD's have been a godsend and a lifesaver to millions of people, me being one of them, by relieving the symptoms and making them functional so that they can then also receive other forms of therapy as well, in conjunction with the AD's. Please quit pushing the scientology shit-garbage here.

[tama]

177. I was inclined to answer

thoughtfully and politely, but your last sentence insult made it clear that you are not worth it.

[Taverner]

169. No. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are on antidepressants

And none of them had a killing spree

The hyperinflated fear over antidepressants is stunning, if anything for its stupidity

[liberalhistorian]

182. Well, this kind of black and white thinking

and fearmongering without definitive facts is typical for this particular OP. As usual, she just doesn't seem interested in the facts, which include the lack of evidence for any AS diagnosis (there's only speculation fed by inaccurate hearsay and steretypes) and the lack of evidence that he was on any kind of AD medicine. But that apparently doesn't bother her at all.

[countryjake]

172. Nope, but what I do feel is striking...

is the wildly concerted effort that many rightwingers in this country have been making to deflect the discussion away from an attack on one of their pet "issues". During this past week, I've heard rants from wingnuts on just about everything except the need to act on effective gun safety in this nation.

Some rethugs are condemning all public school systems, from their lack of "adequate" security to the "liberal" curriculums taught in them. Expanding on that theme, they go on to implicate all of Fairfield County, Connecticut, as being to blame, suggesting somehow that people residing in the Newtown area lack a proper moral compass or more broadly, that our entire nation's turn away from some omnipotent supernatural force have brought deserved tragedy upon us.

From people with personality flaws; to actual mental illness; to both illegal and prescribed drugs; to single-parenting; to classes of entertainment such as video-games, movies, and tv; and my personal favorite, to the LACK of gun-toting citizens, many rightwingers have fought hard this past week to try and preserve the status of their number one vote-getting wedge by diverting attention away from the discussion that has for far too long been ignored.

So no, your assertion, which has no basis whatsoever in fact, as no reliable report thus far has stated it as true, is not actually important, at all.

What is true is that each and every one of that shooter's 26 victims inside the schoolhouse were murdered within a very short amount of time, minutes, and their shattered bodies were found with 3 to 11 wounds each, bloody bullet-holes.

[Posteritatis]

178. I wonder how many people the current "demonize the mentally ill + treatment" craze will kill. (nt)

[thucythucy]

223. Excellent point.

I've already read posts that talk about kids with Asperger's being bullied precisely because of these smear campaigns.

But I'm glad to see the ovewhelming number of posts in response to this inflammatory OP have been to condemn it for what it is: an irresponsible call to prejudice on behalf of a highly dubious agenda.

[Owl]

181. Unrec. Pure conjecture and misleading.

[yardwork]

186. I think it was the guns. /nt

[sulphurdunn]

203. The immdiate issue is not about

disabilities, drugs, gender roles, economics, religion, culture, patriotism or freedom. It's about gun reform and especially the sale of high capacity semiautomatic weapons. Of course, the NRA desperately wants it to be about anything but guns. Stay focused!

[cherish44]

205. I've taken antidepressants for years

NEVER EVER crossed my mind once to kill anyone. I can't even kill a damn spider, I put them outside.

[magical thyme]

209. excuse me, but where the fuck did you come up with his diagnosis and treatment, Dr.?

Because I've read nothing of a specific diagnosis, nor have I read anything about him being on prescribed anything.

Shitty article trying to make him guilty by association. There is maybe one specific paragraph on Lanza which references the general description given of him, with no mention of a specific diagnosis or treatment. And a whole pile of shit about *other* murderers who had various diagnoses and treatments.

What a fucking waste of time thread. Outta here.

[freshwest]

216. NO.

[Eddie Haskell]

220. I took them until ...

the violent reactions led to my arrest. They would put me to sleep, but when I awoke, I was a monster. The police were so impressed by the store video that they sent a small task force to my trial ... just in case. Say what you want, but I've been on one and if you saw the video you would see for yourself the potential consequences.

[cherish44]

222. Aspergers is NOT a condition that is treated with medication

A person with AS may suffer from depression, anxiety, ADHD etc just like anyone else and be prescribed medication just like anyone else. But there is no drug for the treatment of Aspergers.

[duffyduff]

230. +1 n/t

[backscatter712]

240. No.

There are millions of people with ASD and similar disorders, who are sometimes treated with meds, who don't go postal and shoot up kindergartens.

[steve2470]

245. Not me.

I'm on two anti-depressants (one is a serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, and the other is a norepinephrine-dopamine reuptake inhibitor).

I have no urges or fantasies or thoughts of doing anyone any bodily harm.

Next ?

[MichiganVote]

246. In all liklihood, this guy was misdiagnosed. He was a Paranoid Schizophrenic.

[SidDithers]

256. The Niagara Falls Reporter?...

That's the best you can come up with?

What are they saying about Lanza in your local Pennysaver??

Holy fuck. This thread is just about the worst thing I've seen at DU in a long time.



Sid

[green for victory]

259. How about the US GOV National Institutes of Health

You've seen this. You choose to ignore it and slime those looking for answers.

NIH.GOV: Antidepressants and Violence-Problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

...In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal. The rates were highest in children with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), where the odds ratio of a hostile event was 17 times greater (95% confidence interval

Emotional blunting

Another mechanism that may contribute to hostile events is treatment-induced emotional blunting. Several reports published since 1990 have linked SSRI intake with the production of emotional blunting, detachment, or an amotivational syndrome, described in one report as the equivalent to a

“chemical lobotomy”

The new issues highlighted by these cases need urgent examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries where antidepressants are widely used. The problem is international, and it would make sense to organise an international effort now.

*******************

Ignore your governments request for further examination if you will.

Others won't. In fact, the constant and frankly unbelievable attacks against those who are trying to figure out what is making these kids pick up a gun and kill their classmates have motivated me (at least) to spend every free minute of my time in the next few months getting out the truth about these drugs as outlined by the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT National Institutes of Health.

So, in a way, thanks to you and the rest. You will NEVER SILENCE people like me. And now you've helped to turn over a hornets nest. Mark my words, if you wanted this under the rug, you've had the opposite effect. Happy Holidays.

From the above:

...In 1998, a new family doctor, unaware of this adverse reaction to fluoxetine, prescribed paroxetine 20 mg to DS, for what was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder. Two days later having had, it is believed, two doses of medication, DS using a gun put three bullets each through the heads of his wife, his daughter who was visiting, and his nine-month-old granddaughter before killing himself.

If he didn't have a gun you think he would have baked a cake or done some laundry?

http://ssristories.com/index.php

[SidDithers]

260. And that shows that Lanza was taking anti-depressants where?...nt

Sid

[green for victory]

263. no time to waste now on those who refuse to see

Last edited Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:52 PM - Edit history (1)

By the end of this week my goal is to expose at least 20,000
new people to this madness. So I won't have much time for
the likes of you.



http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/

dare ya


edit: forgot to add some super new links I'm sure you will take the time to examine.

Connecticut Shooting: ANTIDEPRESSANTS or ATYPICAL ANTIPSYCHOTICS?
by Ann Blake Tracy author of Prozac: Panacea or Pandora?
http://www.drugawareness.org/recentcasesblog/ct-shooting-antidepressants
http://www.drugawareness.org/

Prozac: Panacea or Pandora? the Rest of the Story on the New Class of Ssri Antidepressants Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Lovan, Luvox & More.
Check out the reviews
http://www.amazon.com/Prozac-Panacea-Pandora-Antidepressants-Zoloft/dp/0916095592

PROZAC-PANACEA OR PANDORA? Our Serotonin Nightmare
2001 Update Special Edition free here-(PDF)
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Health/Articles/ProzacReport-DrTracy.pdf


DrugAwareness.Org Youtube channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/icfda/videos

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/


Thanks again for the motivation.

[SidDithers]

264. Does that link show Lanza was taking anti-depressants?...

You still haven't shown any evidence that the shooter was taking any medication.

Trying to link the CT shooting to SSRI's, without any evidence is just irresponsible speculation.

Good luck with your anti medicine crusade, tho.

Sid

[Iggo]

265. It strikes me as important that he had a bushmaster with a high capacity magazine.