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cab67

(3,440 posts)
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:12 PM Apr 2025

The dire wolf is still extinct.

Last edited Thu Apr 10, 2025, 05:25 PM - Edit history (4)

There have been headlines – and even the cover of Time Magazine – touting the alleged “de-extinction” of the dire wolf, Aenocyon dirus, based on genetic engineering.

Please let me explain why this is bullshit, and why the headlines should be (mostly) disregarded.

Full disclosure – I’m a professional vertebrate paleontologist who also uses DNA (including DNA from fossils). I don’t work on mammals; rather, I work on animals that eat mammals. And I use the DNA to reconstruct evolutionary relationships - not for resurrection. Still, I have a decent idea what did (and did not) happen in this case.

The dire wolf (which used to be recognized as Canis dirus until analyses of ancient DNA showed it to be more closely related to other canids) is known from Pleistocene (“Ice Age”) deposits across North and South America. It was long viewed as basically a much larger relative of the modern gray wolf (Canis lupus), but it’s not actually a member of Canis, and the largest subspecies of C. lupus are about the same size as A. dirus. Still, it would probably have looked more or less like a wolf - a big dog, at any rate - and would have been an impressive predator.

It's best sampled, I think, from the La Brea Tar pits. There’s an entire wall at the George Page Museum in Los Angeles (which is one of the best paleo museums in North America) dedicated to dire wolf skulls. Animals would be stuck in the tar, drawing predators and scavengers that, in turn, would also get stuck in the tar. (The image many have of deep pits of tar is mythical; in most cases, it would be a thin, but extremely sticky, film of tar at the surface, or maybe on the bottom of a shallow lake. Animals stuck in the tar would actually remain mostly exposed at the surface while they were scavenged; they wouldn’t “sink into the tar.” But I digress.)

Anyway – several companies are trying to “resurrect” recently extinct animals. This is very controversial among scientists; many of us (myself included) think the enormous amount of money being spent to bring some of these animals back (which is extremely unlikely to happen, though I’d love to be proved wrong) would be better used to conserve existing habitat and preventing future extinctions. I have some other issues that I’ll raise later.

One of these companies, Colossal Biosciences, is claiming they’ve done this with the dire wolf.

Except they haven’t. Not even close.

What they did, from a straightforwardly scientific point of view, is actually very cool. They edited some gray wolf genes. 20 edits for 14 genes. Yes, it’s an accomplishment – but the cubs are not dire wolves. They’re gray wolves with a bit of genetic tinkering.

I know GMOs are a sensitive topic here. I will neither defend nor decry them, and the debate is irrelevant to my point, which is that when genes from different organisms are spliced into something like maize or tomatoes, the resulting plants are still maize and tomatoes. They just have some tinkered genes. (Again – whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is completely beside the point here.) This is pretty much identical to what’s been done here; they’ve bred gray wolves with some tinkered genes.

Although the people at Colossal Biosciences have accomplished something of note, they haven’t resurrected anything.

Is it a species?

In response to published criticism of their claims, Colossal issued a statement arguing that we shouldn’t (or don’t) use genetic criteria to recognize species, and that we should use phenotype. This opens that great oaken door to the Pandora’s Box that is species concepts, but it’s also completely wrong.

In high school biology, we learn that species are populations of interbreeding individuals that produce fertile offspring, but can’t do so with individuals from other populations. This is known as the Biological Species Concept (BSC), and the dirty secret is that very few biologists actually use it. I, for one, usually can’t – fossils, being dead, generally don’t mate. There are asexual species, and for some groups (including mine – crocodiles and alligators) – hybridization between what would generally be considered distinct species is very common. Following the strictest application of the BSC possible, the 12 or 13 recognized species of Crocodylus would become one.

So what’s a species?

Here’s a problem I’ve encountered. Maybe you have, too. I sometimes encounter groups of biologists, and they’re all alive. What do I do about that? The ancient Greeks used hemlock, but there are way too many biologists for that nowadays. So I lock them all in a room and say, “no one gets out until you agree on what a species is.” They will all die.

That said, the myriad concepts out there boil down to three. The BSC is one of them, but there’s also the Evolutionary Species Concept (ESC), in which a species is a lineage of populations evolving over time; and the Phylogenetic Species Concept (PSC), in which a species is basically the smallest unit of biodiversity circumscribed by unique combinations of morphological and genetic features.

These aren’t mutually exclusive of each other. In effect, the ESC is what a species actually is; the BSC explains how species come into being for sexually-reproducing organisms; and the PSC explains how we know we have a species. The ESC defines the conceptual species that we hope our operational (or inferred) species, which are smallest diagnosable units, approximate as closely as possible. And reproductive isolation is the best possible evidence that a smallest diagnosable unit is a species.

What Colossal described is kind of like the PSC, but the PSC as used by actual biologists would still (in concept, at least) represent evolutionary units. These cubs don’t fit that definition. So the statement they released is nonsensical and should be ignored.

Again, what Colossal Bioscience did is impressive. But they haven’t resurrected anything.

This also brings up a broader discussion – what, exactly, is “resurrection?”

The purest form would involve the re-creation of an organism from the complete genome of another. This is cloning. And for extinct animals, it’s very unlikely to happen. We have DNA from a comparatively small number of fossils, and it’s usually degraded, so we usually don’t have the complete genome.

We obviously have complete genomes for many recently extinct species (Tasmanian wolf, great auk, dodo, etc.), and we do have complete genomes from some fossils, but unless it’s in an intact cell nucleus, it won’t do much for cloning.

And we would want this in the nucleus of an ovum or stem cell.

There’s the issue of surrogacy. Woolly and Columbian mammoths (Mammuthus primogenius and M. columbi, respectively) were much larger than their closest living relative (Asian elephant, Elephas maximus), and their calves would have been larger; would a female Asian elephant be able to carry a mammoth calf to term? And would her body recognize it as a foreign entity with different DNA and reject it? Colossal Bioscience itself ran into this problem, which is why they switched from mammoths and dodos to the dire wolf - although without a close living relative, this is still a big problem for dire wolves.

(There have been claims in the media that the dire wolf and gray wolf are each other's closest relatives. They are not.)

This is why I think efforts to clone the Tasmanian wolf are doomed; their closest living relatives are no more than half the size of an adult thylacine. It's also why I think if we're going to clone a mammoth, we should try for one of the miniature species that lived on islands in the Mediterranean or off the coast of California. (I want those resurrected because I think they'd make awesome pets.)

The closest we've come to actually cloning something extinct was with the Pyrenean ibex, which is considered a subspecies of the Iberian ibex (Capra pyrenaica). The last known individual died in 2000. A cloned individual was born in 2003, but it only lived for a few hours. (This makes the Pyrenean ibex the only extinct species to be cloned and the only species to have gone extinct twice.)

This is also the reason we'll never resurrect Tyrannosaurus rex. The oldest DNA we have is around 2 million years in age, and it's degraded. DNA just doesn't last that long.

Assuming we can’t actually clone extinct animals, we could genetically engineer them, which is what Colossal Bioscience is trying to do here. Or we could selectively breed modern animals to look like their extinct relatives. I wouldn’t try this with a mammoth – generation times are way too long – but we could, in practice do so.

But are these true de-extinction? Or have we created something new that might resemble something extinct?

Then there’s the cost. A lot of money is being thrown at the problem. Meanwhile, land use and climate change are increasing the risk of further extinctions that could be prevented.

And what do we do with these animals? Put them in a zoo? “Re-wilding” is nonsense – I’d be happy to explain why in the comments – so releasing them into the wild is not an option. How do we maintain them, given that the environments they lived in may no longer exist?

There's also a deep ethical concern if someone tries to resurrect Australopithecus, Paranthropus, or an earlier species of Homo. What rights would these individuals have? Would they be considered human in the eyes of the law? Would they be treated with the same dignity as modern humans? And where would they live? This, I think, should be flat-out forbidden.

It hurts me to say these things, because it would be totally cool to see a real dire wolf.

Anyway, my thoughts on it. The dire wolf is still extinct, and I suspect it’s going to stay that way.

49 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The dire wolf is still extinct. (Original Post) cab67 Apr 2025 OP
It would seem that they are just genetically-modified gray wolves. Ocelot II Apr 2025 #1
They really are! littlemissmartypants Apr 2025 #11
they are indeed! cab67 Apr 2025 #20
There is a certain absurd stupidity of spending tens of millions of dollars studying how to resurrect extinct animals, Oneironaut Apr 2025 #2
Except on Game of Thrones! ScoutHikerDad Apr 2025 #3
I could never get into that show. cab67 Apr 2025 #4
And a sad result of that show... catchnrelease Apr 2025 #22
It's the same every Easter. cab67 Apr 2025 #25
I had a Siberian from 1998-2012 VGNonly Apr 2025 #32
I showed Afghan Hounds SADAR Apr 2025 #43
I met such a cross. cab67 Apr 2025 #44
I like the House of the Dragon! yardwork Apr 2025 #24
There is not and never has been a scientific agreement DenaliDemocrat Apr 2025 #5
to be honest... cab67 Apr 2025 #15
I had to chuckle Cirsium Apr 2025 #33
plants are a whole 'nother level of complex. cab67 Apr 2025 #45
Amazing story about the crocs Cirsium Apr 2025 #49
My introduction to the Dire Wolf. dem4decades Apr 2025 #6
The dire wolf collects his due... LuckyCharms Apr 2025 #47
Thank you for clearing up things! OldEurope Apr 2025 #7
Vielen Dank! cab67 Apr 2025 #21
Sigh. OldEurope Apr 2025 #34
Darmstadt? cab67 Apr 2025 #35
Yes. Darmstadt. OldEurope Apr 2025 #40
In fact.... cab67 Apr 2025 #38
Too long. Will read tomorrow ;-) OldEurope Apr 2025 #41
EXCELLENT post, Cab!! AZ8theist Apr 2025 #8
much appreciated! cab67 Apr 2025 #12
Thank you so much for this well thought out, well written article. I enjoyed reading the entire thing, every bit of it! SWBTATTReg Apr 2025 #14
thanks! cab67 Apr 2025 #26
Yup. I said that on the other thread about this from this morning Arazi Apr 2025 #9
You and this post... littlemissmartypants Apr 2025 #10
I second that motion Hekate Apr 2025 #19
Thank you for this information. n/t ChazII Apr 2025 #13
Thank you for the explanation mdbl Apr 2025 #16
Thank you for taking the time to post this. MontanaMama Apr 2025 #17
much appreciated! cab67 Apr 2025 #27
What a fun read! Hekate Apr 2025 #18
thanks! cab67 Apr 2025 #28
This is fascinating! Thank you! yardwork Apr 2025 #23
Thanks Cirsium Apr 2025 #29
This article pretty much agrees with you Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2025 #30
All I want to know is can I pet that dawg? and where do I sign up to adopt one? OverBurn Apr 2025 #31
What about Carolina parakeets and passenger pigeons? NickB79 Apr 2025 #36
No one has ever cloned an animal that hatches from a shelled egg. cab67 Apr 2025 #37
Yes it's total BS. Informative write up! WarGamer Apr 2025 #39
Great post canetoad Apr 2025 #42
Never been to Vic. cab67 Apr 2025 #46
Thanks for the discussion. This is actually a topic I enjoy learning about. eppur_se_muova Apr 2025 #48

Ocelot II

(126,102 posts)
1. It would seem that they are just genetically-modified gray wolves.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:21 PM
Apr 2025

The pups are cute, though.

Oneironaut

(6,074 posts)
2. There is a certain absurd stupidity of spending tens of millions of dollars studying how to resurrect extinct animals,
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:22 PM
Apr 2025

while ignoring how our way of life is leading to the extinction of existing animal specifies in present time, every day. However, we as a society have decided to ignore this.

ScoutHikerDad

(49 posts)
3. Except on Game of Thrones!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:33 PM
Apr 2025

You GOT fans will remember that all the Stark siblings got dire-wolves in the 1st episode. Loved that show! (but the prequel House of the Dragon was just awful, sadly).

cab67

(3,440 posts)
4. I could never get into that show.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:48 PM
Apr 2025

Struck me as a cheap knock-off of Tolkien. But I have friends who are devoted fans.

catchnrelease

(2,088 posts)
22. And a sad result of that show...
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:27 PM
Apr 2025

Right at the time of GoT and it's dire wolf pets the population of huskies as pets exploded. The sled dogs started showing up at the dog parks by the dozens. People were/are breeding them like mad to make a buck off their popularity. Sadly, they're not the best fit for your average urban owner. They require tons of exercise, coat care etc.. They're escape artists and social media is loaded with posts for lost or found huskies. And worst of all is they're flooding shelters as strays or owner dumped pets.

It was the same with collies after the Lassie movies/tv show, Dalmations after 101 Dalmations etc. Lately it's been Belgian Malinois due to that breed being in the John Wick movie with Halle Berry. Another breed that isn't the best for the average pet owner. Unfortunately humans are thoughtless and just want to jump on to a fad and the poor animals pay the price.

Sorry for the rant, but I keep seeing the fallout from that show (which I've never seen) and it just triggers me when the subject comes up.

VGNonly

(8,199 posts)
32. I had a Siberian from 1998-2012
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:04 PM
Apr 2025

She was a wonderful companion but...a handful. We had a 6' fence, she managed to hop it a few times. Daily walks, at least 3 miles, many longer. She only shed twice a year, but it lasted six months each .

SADAR

(68 posts)
43. I showed Afghan Hounds
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 05:50 PM
Apr 2025

for fifty years. I can tell you from experience that reputable, caring breeders hate to see their breed in movies and on TV.
Everybody and their brother will be breeding genetically unhealthy, badly raised and unsocialized specimens of whatever breed it is.
Like the point about the Huskies...every breed is not for everybody, but this guy has puppies for $100, so we'll get one. There is a reason reputable breeders' puppies cost so much, they want to make sure the dog is perceived as valuable in a disposable world. There will also be contracts and rules and home visits and no breeding contracts as well as requirements the dog be taken to the vet. A contract on a registered dog is a legal document and the organization I am familiar with, AKC, will honor that contract. You will NOT breed a dog the breeder says shouldn't be bred and have registered puppies.

Now for the haters, yes, I had litters. Know how many puppies didn't spend their entire life with me? Five. I never bred a litter unless I had the means to keep them for fifteen years, cos I basically don't trust people. This is the life I chose and I wouldn't trade it and the dogs for anything. I made so many friends and had so many wonderful dogs. So go on, hate.

My last Afghan died last year at the age of 15 years and 51 weeks. She picked ME when she was three weeks old.

That being said, there was a dangerous trend thirty years ago of breeding wolf/dog crosses, lets hope it doesn't recur.

cab67

(3,440 posts)
44. I met such a cross.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 06:32 PM
Apr 2025

We were camping in the mountains in southeastern Arizona. This particular canid - its owner named it Steppen - managed to tree three black bears in the space of two days.

Beautiful dog, but with a sense of self-reliance that could have made him dangerous.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,658 posts)
5. There is not and never has been a scientific agreement
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 01:51 PM
Apr 2025

On cladistics. There are lumpers and there are splitters.

cab67

(3,440 posts)
15. to be honest...
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:53 PM
Apr 2025

...I think you're conflating a couple of things.

The term "cladistics" can refer to a couple of things. In general, it refers to the principle that only clades (monophyletic groups) should be recognized above the species level. This is not controversial - it's pretty much universally acknowledged. The more widely used term is phylogenetic systematics.

It's also come to refer to a particular group within the phylogenetics community that insists on the use of maximum parsimony over any and all other methods in the estimation (or reconstruction, or inference, depending on one's philosophy) of phylogenetic (evolutionary) relationships. This one is more controversial; I tend to use parsimony more than Bayesian inference (several reasons), but nearly everyone who uses molecular data to estimate phylogeny uses Bayesian methods.

Lumping and splitting aren't "cladistics." That has more to do with species delineation, which is normally done before we estimate phylogenetic relationships.

When phylogenetic systematics first came out, there were some lumping-vs-splitting-like debates, but these had more to do with (a) decisions not to recognize paraphyletic groups as formal taxonomic categories and (b) the use of taxonomic names in ways they weren't before. For example, "fish" doesn't reflect a monophyletic group. Lungfish are more closely related to us than they are to coelacanths or other bony fishes - even though they live in the water, have gills and fins, and can be eaten on Fridays during lent. The word "fish" is still a perfectly good descriptor for extant vertebrates that aren't tetrapods, but we no longer recognize Pisces in formal taxonomy. And although we still recognize Osteichthyes, it's no longer restricted to bony fishes - it now includes tetrapods, which some people didn't like. (This is the reason we say dinosaurs aren't extinct. Birds are dinosaurs for the very same reason humans are mammals.)

The kind of lumping vs splitting I alluded to involves the circumscription of species, which is very different from how they're organized into more inclusive groups. This is done before we go for the phylogenetic relationships.

It's become more controversial now because of the use (and sometimes misuse) of molecular data to break species apart into cryptic species complexes. Early attempts relying on mitochondrial DNA are sometimes being walked back with nuclear DNA data. I've actually published on the impact this is having on paleontology; we usually use ranges of variation within modern species as a proxy for ranges in extinct species, but what if the living species we've used are actually groups of very similar but separate species?

I'm one of the very few people in the world who actually likes talking about species concepts.....

Cirsium

(2,751 posts)
33. I had to chuckle
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:11 PM
Apr 2025

"I'm one of the very few people in the world who actually likes talking about species concepts....."

I love it when you talk species concepts to me.

I much appreciate your posts here. I even understand some of what you write! As an amateur (dilettante?) I am struggling through Plant Systematics by Michael G. Simpson. It isn't pretty. But it is valuable to know just how little one knows.

cab67

(3,440 posts)
45. plants are a whole 'nother level of complex.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 06:38 PM
Apr 2025

Last edited Wed Apr 9, 2025, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)

I like to say crocodiles hybridize with gay abandon, but they're celibate puritans compared with plants. Their evolutionary relationships are more like a woven rug than a tree.

True story - someone once showed me a crocodile skull with little horn-like projections behind the eyes. In modern crocodiles, this typically only happens in Cuban and Siamese crocodiles. Cuban crocodiles are New World crocodiles, so they also have a rounded hump in the middle of the snout. Siamese crocodiles are Indopacific forms with slender crests (ridges) extending forward from right in front of each eye.

This one had both the hump and the crests.

Turns out, when Vietnam was trying to get its economy going after the war, they wanted to expand their crocodile farming operations for the exotic leather industry. The Siamese and saltwater crocodiles native to Vietnam weren't doing so well, so they couldn't get many into captivity. They thus went to the only other communist country with a native population of crocodiles for extra breeding stock.

Siamese and Cuban crocodiles haven't shared a common ancestor for 10 to 15 million years, and yet they can interbreed. And the offspring are fertile.

And their skulls annoy the f-word out of me.

Cirsium

(2,751 posts)
49. Amazing story about the crocs
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 07:37 PM
Apr 2025

Moving species around leads to a lot of unintended consequences.

OldEurope

(1,280 posts)
7. Thank you for clearing up things!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:08 PM
Apr 2025

I am not a scientist but always interested.
Greetings from Germany

cab67

(3,440 posts)
21. Vielen Dank!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:26 PM
Apr 2025

True story - one of my first professional experiences in Germany was while I was in grad school. I was visiting a museum (won't name the city) to look at some of their fossil crocs. The curator, who was an elderly man, continued to point me toward parts of the museum where "one of your bombs" did some damage.

I never spoke my thoughts aloud: I was born long after the war; you guys did sorta kinda start it; and I looked it up. The museum was hit during a nighttime bombing raid. That meant it was most likely a British bomb that did the damage.

I later learned that the curator's father had been some sort of official in the Nazi German government. The curator wasn't himself a Nazi - far from it, in fact - but appeared to have inherited some ill will toward Germany's former enemies. He wasn't at the museum when I visited a couple of years ago, so I'm sure he's long since retired.

OldEurope

(1,280 posts)
34. Sigh.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:12 PM
Apr 2025

I hope you had some positive encounters, too.

The most interesting thing I saw was the museum of the Messel tar pit, so beautiful!


cab67

(3,440 posts)
35. Darmstadt?
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:27 PM
Apr 2025

When I visited in 1995, there was still a US Air Force base there. That meant I could actually pass for German. Anywhere else, they could pick out a Yank at 200 paces. But between my hair and piercings, I didn't look military.

That's a great museum. I was there to look at the crocodiles and alligators (sort of) from Messel.

Nearly all of my experiences in Germany over the years have been strongly positive. I have several good friends there, mostly working for universities and museums.

OldEurope

(1,280 posts)
40. Yes. Darmstadt.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:49 PM
Apr 2025

My daughter is living there, she is graduating in neuroscience.
I'm more interested in archaeology, though.

AZ8theist

(6,790 posts)
8. EXCELLENT post, Cab!!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:16 PM
Apr 2025

Science education at it's best. Exactly what this country needs. The ability to think critically and use scientific FACTS, not Tick Tock bullshit.
We now have a social media onslaught of creationists, flat Earthers and moon landing deniers since they think "research" is watching Youtube and Tick Tock videos made by other MORONS and science illiterates confirming their bias.

I appaud you for posting a scientific explanation of this case to counteract the idiots who make uniformed headlines for clicks and ad revenue, as opposed to the actual facts. The reality can be boring, yes, but it can lead to the correct outcomes rather than hysteria.

SWBTATTReg

(25,493 posts)
14. Thank you so much for this well thought out, well written article. I enjoyed reading the entire thing, every bit of it!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:52 PM
Apr 2025

Arazi

(8,177 posts)
9. Yup. I said that on the other thread about this from this morning
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:19 PM
Apr 2025

It's not a dire wolf. It's a gray wolf clone with 20 dire-wolf gene edits, and with some dire wolf traits.

I’d far rather the effort went into cancer cures

littlemissmartypants

(28,470 posts)
10. You and this post...
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 02:28 PM
Apr 2025

Are two reasons why I keep coming back to DU. I want to have a beer with you and I don't even like beer.

Thanks so much for sharing this. Please share more.

❤️pants

MontanaMama

(24,504 posts)
17. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:07 PM
Apr 2025

Social media is flooded with the claim that dire wolves are no longer extinct. I am bookmarking your OP so I can be ready with facts the next time I run across one of them.

Hekate

(98,597 posts)
18. What a fun read!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:17 PM
Apr 2025

I just drove my husband bonkers trying to read it to him — this is the man who finds obscure branches of mathematics so much fun he insists on sharing with me.

Anyway — I’m just as glad the dire wolf isn’t going to be roaming the hills any time soon. Thanks!

yardwork

(67,261 posts)
23. This is fascinating! Thank you!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:29 PM
Apr 2025

I never understood the La Brea tar pits, either.

Very illuminating and interesting.

I think we should spend money protecting existing wolf species.

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(126,176 posts)
30. This article pretty much agrees with you
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 03:57 PM
Apr 2025
Experts dispute claim dire wolf brought back from extinction

Paleogeneticist Dr Nic Rawlence, also from Otago University, explained how ancient dire wolf DNA - extracted from fossilised remains - is too degraded and damaged to biologically copy or clone.

"Ancient DNA is like if you put fresh DNA in a 500 degree oven overnight," Dr Rawlence told BBC News. "It comes out fragmented - like shards and dust.

"You can reconstruct [it], but it's not good enough to do anything else with."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-dispute-claims-dire-wolf-115520223.html

This whole thing reminds me of the time when they said they reconstructed the aurochs which is a species of wild cattle that most domestic breeds descend from. Known as the Heck cattle it's debated how close they are to the actual aurochs.

NickB79

(19,987 posts)
36. What about Carolina parakeets and passenger pigeons?
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:29 PM
Apr 2025

They would both be excellent candidates for deextinction and rewilding IMO.

cab67

(3,440 posts)
37. No one has ever cloned an animal that hatches from a shelled egg.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:40 PM
Apr 2025

That's why most efforts (dodo excepted, and most of those efforts are usually abandoned very quickly) have looked at mammals.

Beyond that, I'm not a big fan of rewilding. The habitats where these animals lived are mostly (if not entirely) gone. That's usually why they died out in the first place. (Hunting did play a role with the two birds you mentioned, but habitat loss was just as important.)

This is why mustangs are not the example of rewilding people make them out to be. The region where mustangs roam free didn't look anything like it currently does when native horses were still around. The region was cooler, wetter, and had different vegetation. And native horses were stockier and (mostly) smaller than domestic horses - they would have looked like a cross between a Przewalski's horse and a barnyard donkey. They were adapted for eating different grasses, and some of them didn't graze at all - they browsed, more like modern deer. It's not an example of rewilding; it's an example of an invasive species adapting to new surroundings.

But I would agree that a stronger case for rewilding can be made for passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets, only because they died out far more recently.

WarGamer

(17,561 posts)
39. Yes it's total BS. Informative write up!
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 04:44 PM
Apr 2025

It's wolves with modified genetic traits.

and yes, contrary to opinion, a Saber Tooth Tiger probably couldn't survive in the wild today.

canetoad

(19,320 posts)
42. Great post
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 05:07 PM
Apr 2025

Thank you. I live close to the 'Dinosaur Dreaming' projects at Inverloch, Victoria and among other cool things, love finding fossils on the rock platforms. So far it's limited to plants and trees, but I'm hoping....


cab67

(3,440 posts)
46. Never been to Vic.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 06:41 PM
Apr 2025

I spent several weeks in Darwin and Alice Springs last year looking at fossils in the museums there. It's been a long time since I've been to Brisbane, but they also have a magnificent natural history museum.

And between the wildlife and people, and the good beer, I love going to Australia anyway.

eppur_se_muova

(39,458 posts)
48. Thanks for the discussion. This is actually a topic I enjoy learning about.
Tue Apr 8, 2025, 07:05 PM
Apr 2025

I've had some thoughts on the species concept for several reasons (mostly because I've always been interested in paleontology and evolution, since preschool, despite eventually choosing an unrelated profession), especially including the very different approaches to the species concept based on interbreeding populations vs fossil remains, which usually include almost exclusively skeletal remains for vertebrates. I remember how the term "missing link" kept showing up in the popular press (ever since Darwin) despite the vagueness of the term -- the Futurama episode "A Clockwork Origin" satirized this concept to extinction.



I was also driven to reflection based on a discussion of the meaning of "equivalence relations" in mathematics -- and how concepts of "approximately equal to", if taken to be transitive, can lead to obviously invalid conclusions. Thus two members of a living species have "approximately equal" genomes, and could even be immediately related. But if A is genetically equivalent to B, and B is equivalent to C, and C .... equivalent to ZZZZ, at what point do we encounter a genome that differs enough from A to make viable offspring impossible ? Obviously this is usually discussed in terms of geographic separation of populations, and how many generations of separation are required for genetic drift to lead to speciation. (Cue discussion of Darwin's finches, Galapagos tortoises, and island populations in general.) But the same concept applies to successive generations, as well. No one denies that an organism is related to its ancestors in some way, but at what point in the succession do you drive in a survey marker and say "here lies the boundary between species, because generation 1 and generation 99,999 cannot interbreed/have wholly distinct type specimens ? And if that's true, wouldn't it be true of generation 101 and 100,100 as well ? Or 201 and 100,200 ? How to justify drawing a sharp line in the midst of a continuous gradient ? And how would you ever test the concept of interbreeding between living and dead generations, without complete knowledge of their genomes and absence of at least one breeding example ?

I'm sure I'm not the only one ever to wonder about such things, but I keep finding myself forced to these conclusions:

1) The species concept is a very useful tool, but ultimately an intellectual creation at least as much as a natural phenomenon, and we shouldn't allow it to restrict our thoughts too incautiously.

2) Whatever definition we choose is based on its utility here and now, in the case we are examining, and may not be generalizable even to apparently similar cases.

3) Ultimately, evolution happens, and the evolved and evolving species are under no obligation to conform to our labels (another of our useful, but human-devised, intellectual tools), our behave in line with our theories. General concepts can be extracted (and are powerful within their domains), but are not universally binding. After billions of years of evolution, and millions of recognized species, almost any possible mechanism of natural selection is likely to have occurred at least once, if not repeatedly. So I don't really have a bet on either dog in the Punctuated Equilibrium/Phyletic Gradualism debate, other than to say, "yes, I'm sure that has happened many times; examples abound" to both. Cool names, though, which sometimes seems to matter a lot to their proponents.

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