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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe dire wolf is still extinct.
Last edited Thu Apr 10, 2025, 05:25 PM - Edit history (4)
There have been headlines and even the cover of Time Magazine touting the alleged de-extinction of the dire wolf, Aenocyon dirus, based on genetic engineering.
Please let me explain why this is bullshit, and why the headlines should be (mostly) disregarded.
Full disclosure Im a professional vertebrate paleontologist who also uses DNA (including DNA from fossils). I dont work on mammals; rather, I work on animals that eat mammals. And I use the DNA to reconstruct evolutionary relationships - not for resurrection. Still, I have a decent idea what did (and did not) happen in this case.
The dire wolf (which used to be recognized as Canis dirus until analyses of ancient DNA showed it to be more closely related to other canids) is known from Pleistocene (Ice Age) deposits across North and South America. It was long viewed as basically a much larger relative of the modern gray wolf (Canis lupus), but its not actually a member of Canis, and the largest subspecies of C. lupus are about the same size as A. dirus. Still, it would probably have looked more or less like a wolf - a big dog, at any rate - and would have been an impressive predator.
It's best sampled, I think, from the La Brea Tar pits. Theres an entire wall at the George Page Museum in Los Angeles (which is one of the best paleo museums in North America) dedicated to dire wolf skulls. Animals would be stuck in the tar, drawing predators and scavengers that, in turn, would also get stuck in the tar. (The image many have of deep pits of tar is mythical; in most cases, it would be a thin, but extremely sticky, film of tar at the surface, or maybe on the bottom of a shallow lake. Animals stuck in the tar would actually remain mostly exposed at the surface while they were scavenged; they wouldnt sink into the tar. But I digress.)
Anyway several companies are trying to resurrect recently extinct animals. This is very controversial among scientists; many of us (myself included) think the enormous amount of money being spent to bring some of these animals back (which is extremely unlikely to happen, though Id love to be proved wrong) would be better used to conserve existing habitat and preventing future extinctions. I have some other issues that Ill raise later.
One of these companies, Colossal Biosciences, is claiming theyve done this with the dire wolf.
Except they havent. Not even close.
What they did, from a straightforwardly scientific point of view, is actually very cool. They edited some gray wolf genes. 20 edits for 14 genes. Yes, its an accomplishment but the cubs are not dire wolves. Theyre gray wolves with a bit of genetic tinkering.
I know GMOs are a sensitive topic here. I will neither defend nor decry them, and the debate is irrelevant to my point, which is that when genes from different organisms are spliced into something like maize or tomatoes, the resulting plants are still maize and tomatoes. They just have some tinkered genes. (Again whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is completely beside the point here.) This is pretty much identical to whats been done here; theyve bred gray wolves with some tinkered genes.
Although the people at Colossal Biosciences have accomplished something of note, they havent resurrected anything.
Is it a species?
In response to published criticism of their claims, Colossal issued a statement arguing that we shouldnt (or dont) use genetic criteria to recognize species, and that we should use phenotype. This opens that great oaken door to the Pandoras Box that is species concepts, but its also completely wrong.
In high school biology, we learn that species are populations of interbreeding individuals that produce fertile offspring, but cant do so with individuals from other populations. This is known as the Biological Species Concept (BSC), and the dirty secret is that very few biologists actually use it. I, for one, usually cant fossils, being dead, generally dont mate. There are asexual species, and for some groups (including mine crocodiles and alligators) hybridization between what would generally be considered distinct species is very common. Following the strictest application of the BSC possible, the 12 or 13 recognized species of Crocodylus would become one.
So whats a species?
Heres a problem Ive encountered. Maybe you have, too. I sometimes encounter groups of biologists, and theyre all alive. What do I do about that? The ancient Greeks used hemlock, but there are way too many biologists for that nowadays. So I lock them all in a room and say, no one gets out until you agree on what a species is. They will all die.
That said, the myriad concepts out there boil down to three. The BSC is one of them, but theres also the Evolutionary Species Concept (ESC), in which a species is a lineage of populations evolving over time; and the Phylogenetic Species Concept (PSC), in which a species is basically the smallest unit of biodiversity circumscribed by unique combinations of morphological and genetic features.
These arent mutually exclusive of each other. In effect, the ESC is what a species actually is; the BSC explains how species come into being for sexually-reproducing organisms; and the PSC explains how we know we have a species. The ESC defines the conceptual species that we hope our operational (or inferred) species, which are smallest diagnosable units, approximate as closely as possible. And reproductive isolation is the best possible evidence that a smallest diagnosable unit is a species.
What Colossal described is kind of like the PSC, but the PSC as used by actual biologists would still (in concept, at least) represent evolutionary units. These cubs dont fit that definition. So the statement they released is nonsensical and should be ignored.
Again, what Colossal Bioscience did is impressive. But they havent resurrected anything.
This also brings up a broader discussion what, exactly, is resurrection?
The purest form would involve the re-creation of an organism from the complete genome of another. This is cloning. And for extinct animals, its very unlikely to happen. We have DNA from a comparatively small number of fossils, and its usually degraded, so we usually dont have the complete genome.
We obviously have complete genomes for many recently extinct species (Tasmanian wolf, great auk, dodo, etc.), and we do have complete genomes from some fossils, but unless its in an intact cell nucleus, it wont do much for cloning.
And we would want this in the nucleus of an ovum or stem cell.
Theres the issue of surrogacy. Woolly and Columbian mammoths (Mammuthus primogenius and M. columbi, respectively) were much larger than their closest living relative (Asian elephant, Elephas maximus), and their calves would have been larger; would a female Asian elephant be able to carry a mammoth calf to term? And would her body recognize it as a foreign entity with different DNA and reject it? Colossal Bioscience itself ran into this problem, which is why they switched from mammoths and dodos to the dire wolf - although without a close living relative, this is still a big problem for dire wolves.
(There have been claims in the media that the dire wolf and gray wolf are each other's closest relatives. They are not.)
This is why I think efforts to clone the Tasmanian wolf are doomed; their closest living relatives are no more than half the size of an adult thylacine. It's also why I think if we're going to clone a mammoth, we should try for one of the miniature species that lived on islands in the Mediterranean or off the coast of California. (I want those resurrected because I think they'd make awesome pets.)
The closest we've come to actually cloning something extinct was with the Pyrenean ibex, which is considered a subspecies of the Iberian ibex (Capra pyrenaica). The last known individual died in 2000. A cloned individual was born in 2003, but it only lived for a few hours. (This makes the Pyrenean ibex the only extinct species to be cloned and the only species to have gone extinct twice.)
This is also the reason we'll never resurrect Tyrannosaurus rex. The oldest DNA we have is around 2 million years in age, and it's degraded. DNA just doesn't last that long.
Assuming we cant actually clone extinct animals, we could genetically engineer them, which is what Colossal Bioscience is trying to do here. Or we could selectively breed modern animals to look like their extinct relatives. I wouldnt try this with a mammoth generation times are way too long but we could, in practice do so.
But are these true de-extinction? Or have we created something new that might resemble something extinct?
Then theres the cost. A lot of money is being thrown at the problem. Meanwhile, land use and climate change are increasing the risk of further extinctions that could be prevented.
And what do we do with these animals? Put them in a zoo? Re-wilding is nonsense Id be happy to explain why in the comments so releasing them into the wild is not an option. How do we maintain them, given that the environments they lived in may no longer exist?
There's also a deep ethical concern if someone tries to resurrect Australopithecus, Paranthropus, or an earlier species of Homo. What rights would these individuals have? Would they be considered human in the eyes of the law? Would they be treated with the same dignity as modern humans? And where would they live? This, I think, should be flat-out forbidden.
It hurts me to say these things, because it would be totally cool to see a real dire wolf.
Anyway, my thoughts on it. The dire wolf is still extinct, and I suspect its going to stay that way.

Ocelot II
(126,102 posts)The pups are cute, though.
littlemissmartypants
(28,470 posts)
cab67
(3,440 posts)Oneironaut
(6,074 posts)while ignoring how our way of life is leading to the extinction of existing animal specifies in present time, every day. However, we as a society have decided to ignore this.
ScoutHikerDad
(49 posts)You GOT fans will remember that all the Stark siblings got dire-wolves in the 1st episode. Loved that show! (but the prequel House of the Dragon was just awful, sadly).
cab67
(3,440 posts)Struck me as a cheap knock-off of Tolkien. But I have friends who are devoted fans.
catchnrelease
(2,088 posts)Right at the time of GoT and it's dire wolf pets the population of huskies as pets exploded. The sled dogs started showing up at the dog parks by the dozens. People were/are breeding them like mad to make a buck off their popularity. Sadly, they're not the best fit for your average urban owner. They require tons of exercise, coat care etc.. They're escape artists and social media is loaded with posts for lost or found huskies. And worst of all is they're flooding shelters as strays or owner dumped pets.
It was the same with collies after the Lassie movies/tv show, Dalmations after 101 Dalmations etc. Lately it's been Belgian Malinois due to that breed being in the John Wick movie with Halle Berry. Another breed that isn't the best for the average pet owner. Unfortunately humans are thoughtless and just want to jump on to a fad and the poor animals pay the price.
Sorry for the rant, but I keep seeing the fallout from that show (which I've never seen) and it just triggers me when the subject comes up.
cab67
(3,440 posts)Kids get pet bunnies that end up at shelters.
VGNonly
(8,199 posts)She was a wonderful companion but...a handful. We had a 6' fence, she managed to hop it a few times. Daily walks, at least 3 miles, many longer. She only shed twice a year, but it lasted six months each .
SADAR
(68 posts)for fifty years. I can tell you from experience that reputable, caring breeders hate to see their breed in movies and on TV.
Everybody and their brother will be breeding genetically unhealthy, badly raised and unsocialized specimens of whatever breed it is.
Like the point about the Huskies...every breed is not for everybody, but this guy has puppies for $100, so we'll get one. There is a reason reputable breeders' puppies cost so much, they want to make sure the dog is perceived as valuable in a disposable world. There will also be contracts and rules and home visits and no breeding contracts as well as requirements the dog be taken to the vet. A contract on a registered dog is a legal document and the organization I am familiar with, AKC, will honor that contract. You will NOT breed a dog the breeder says shouldn't be bred and have registered puppies.
Now for the haters, yes, I had litters. Know how many puppies didn't spend their entire life with me? Five. I never bred a litter unless I had the means to keep them for fifteen years, cos I basically don't trust people. This is the life I chose and I wouldn't trade it and the dogs for anything. I made so many friends and had so many wonderful dogs. So go on, hate.
My last Afghan died last year at the age of 15 years and 51 weeks. She picked ME when she was three weeks old.
That being said, there was a dangerous trend thirty years ago of breeding wolf/dog crosses, lets hope it doesn't recur.
cab67
(3,440 posts)We were camping in the mountains in southeastern Arizona. This particular canid - its owner named it Steppen - managed to tree three black bears in the space of two days.
Beautiful dog, but with a sense of self-reliance that could have made him dangerous.
yardwork
(67,261 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,658 posts)On cladistics. There are lumpers and there are splitters.
cab67
(3,440 posts)...I think you're conflating a couple of things.
The term "cladistics" can refer to a couple of things. In general, it refers to the principle that only clades (monophyletic groups) should be recognized above the species level. This is not controversial - it's pretty much universally acknowledged. The more widely used term is phylogenetic systematics.
It's also come to refer to a particular group within the phylogenetics community that insists on the use of maximum parsimony over any and all other methods in the estimation (or reconstruction, or inference, depending on one's philosophy) of phylogenetic (evolutionary) relationships. This one is more controversial; I tend to use parsimony more than Bayesian inference (several reasons), but nearly everyone who uses molecular data to estimate phylogeny uses Bayesian methods.
Lumping and splitting aren't "cladistics." That has more to do with species delineation, which is normally done before we estimate phylogenetic relationships.
When phylogenetic systematics first came out, there were some lumping-vs-splitting-like debates, but these had more to do with (a) decisions not to recognize paraphyletic groups as formal taxonomic categories and (b) the use of taxonomic names in ways they weren't before. For example, "fish" doesn't reflect a monophyletic group. Lungfish are more closely related to us than they are to coelacanths or other bony fishes - even though they live in the water, have gills and fins, and can be eaten on Fridays during lent. The word "fish" is still a perfectly good descriptor for extant vertebrates that aren't tetrapods, but we no longer recognize Pisces in formal taxonomy. And although we still recognize Osteichthyes, it's no longer restricted to bony fishes - it now includes tetrapods, which some people didn't like. (This is the reason we say dinosaurs aren't extinct. Birds are dinosaurs for the very same reason humans are mammals.)
The kind of lumping vs splitting I alluded to involves the circumscription of species, which is very different from how they're organized into more inclusive groups. This is done before we go for the phylogenetic relationships.
It's become more controversial now because of the use (and sometimes misuse) of molecular data to break species apart into cryptic species complexes. Early attempts relying on mitochondrial DNA are sometimes being walked back with nuclear DNA data. I've actually published on the impact this is having on paleontology; we usually use ranges of variation within modern species as a proxy for ranges in extinct species, but what if the living species we've used are actually groups of very similar but separate species?
I'm one of the very few people in the world who actually likes talking about species concepts.....
Cirsium
(2,751 posts)"I'm one of the very few people in the world who actually likes talking about species concepts....."
I love it when you talk species concepts to me.
I much appreciate your posts here. I even understand some of what you write! As an amateur (dilettante?) I am struggling through Plant Systematics by Michael G. Simpson. It isn't pretty. But it is valuable to know just how little one knows.
cab67
(3,440 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 9, 2025, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)
I like to say crocodiles hybridize with gay abandon, but they're celibate puritans compared with plants. Their evolutionary relationships are more like a woven rug than a tree.
True story - someone once showed me a crocodile skull with little horn-like projections behind the eyes. In modern crocodiles, this typically only happens in Cuban and Siamese crocodiles. Cuban crocodiles are New World crocodiles, so they also have a rounded hump in the middle of the snout. Siamese crocodiles are Indopacific forms with slender crests (ridges) extending forward from right in front of each eye.
This one had both the hump and the crests.
Turns out, when Vietnam was trying to get its economy going after the war, they wanted to expand their crocodile farming operations for the exotic leather industry. The Siamese and saltwater crocodiles native to Vietnam weren't doing so well, so they couldn't get many into captivity. They thus went to the only other communist country with a native population of crocodiles for extra breeding stock.
Siamese and Cuban crocodiles haven't shared a common ancestor for 10 to 15 million years, and yet they can interbreed. And the offspring are fertile.
And their skulls annoy the f-word out of me.
Cirsium
(2,751 posts)Moving species around leads to a lot of unintended consequences.
dem4decades
(12,984 posts)LuckyCharms
(20,352 posts)
OldEurope
(1,280 posts)I am not a scientist but always interested.
Greetings from Germany
cab67
(3,440 posts)True story - one of my first professional experiences in Germany was while I was in grad school. I was visiting a museum (won't name the city) to look at some of their fossil crocs. The curator, who was an elderly man, continued to point me toward parts of the museum where "one of your bombs" did some damage.
I never spoke my thoughts aloud: I was born long after the war; you guys did sorta kinda start it; and I looked it up. The museum was hit during a nighttime bombing raid. That meant it was most likely a British bomb that did the damage.
I later learned that the curator's father had been some sort of official in the Nazi German government. The curator wasn't himself a Nazi - far from it, in fact - but appeared to have inherited some ill will toward Germany's former enemies. He wasn't at the museum when I visited a couple of years ago, so I'm sure he's long since retired.
I hope you had some positive encounters, too.
The most interesting thing I saw was the museum of the Messel tar pit, so beautiful!
cab67
(3,440 posts)When I visited in 1995, there was still a US Air Force base there. That meant I could actually pass for German. Anywhere else, they could pick out a Yank at 200 paces. But between my hair and piercings, I didn't look military.
That's a great museum. I was there to look at the crocodiles and alligators (sort of) from Messel.
Nearly all of my experiences in Germany over the years have been strongly positive. I have several good friends there, mostly working for universities and museums.
OldEurope
(1,280 posts)My daughter is living there, she is graduating in neuroscience.
I'm more interested in archaeology, though.
cab67
(3,440 posts)....and I'm risking a complete decloaking here - I co-wrote the chapter on crocodylians in the latest book reviewing the Messel fossils.
https://www.senckenberg.de/en/science/senckenberg-publications/books/senckenberg-books/buch-messel-an-ancient-greenhouse-ecosystem/
OldEurope
(1,280 posts)AZ8theist
(6,790 posts)Science education at it's best. Exactly what this country needs. The ability to think critically and use scientific FACTS, not Tick Tock bullshit.
We now have a social media onslaught of creationists, flat Earthers and moon landing deniers since they think "research" is watching Youtube and Tick Tock videos made by other MORONS and science illiterates confirming their bias.
I appaud you for posting a scientific explanation of this case to counteract the idiots who make uniformed headlines for clicks and ad revenue, as opposed to the actual facts. The reality can be boring, yes, but it can lead to the correct outcomes rather than hysteria.
cab67
(3,440 posts)SWBTATTReg
(25,493 posts)Arazi
(8,177 posts)It's not a dire wolf. It's a gray wolf clone with 20 dire-wolf gene edits, and with some dire wolf traits.
Id far rather the effort went into cancer cures
littlemissmartypants
(28,470 posts)Are two reasons why I keep coming back to DU. I want to have a beer with you and I don't even like beer.
Thanks so much for sharing this. Please share more.
❤️pants
Hekate
(98,597 posts)
ChazII
(6,438 posts)mdbl
(6,961 posts)
MontanaMama
(24,504 posts)Social media is flooded with the claim that dire wolves are no longer extinct. I am bookmarking your OP so I can be ready with facts the next time I run across one of them.
cab67
(3,440 posts)Hekate
(98,597 posts)I just drove my husband bonkers trying to read it to him this is the man who finds obscure branches of mathematics so much fun he insists on sharing with me.
Anyway Im just as glad the dire wolf isnt going to be roaming the hills any time soon. Thanks!
yardwork
(67,261 posts)I never understood the La Brea tar pits, either.
Very illuminating and interesting.
I think we should spend money protecting existing wolf species.
Excellent post.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(126,176 posts)Paleogeneticist Dr Nic Rawlence, also from Otago University, explained how ancient dire wolf DNA - extracted from fossilised remains - is too degraded and damaged to biologically copy or clone.
"Ancient DNA is like if you put fresh DNA in a 500 degree oven overnight," Dr Rawlence told BBC News. "It comes out fragmented - like shards and dust.
"You can reconstruct [it], but it's not good enough to do anything else with."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/experts-dispute-claims-dire-wolf-115520223.html
This whole thing reminds me of the time when they said they reconstructed the aurochs which is a species of wild cattle that most domestic breeds descend from. Known as the Heck cattle it's debated how close they are to the actual aurochs.
OverBurn
(1,254 posts)NickB79
(19,987 posts)They would both be excellent candidates for deextinction and rewilding IMO.
cab67
(3,440 posts)That's why most efforts (dodo excepted, and most of those efforts are usually abandoned very quickly) have looked at mammals.
Beyond that, I'm not a big fan of rewilding. The habitats where these animals lived are mostly (if not entirely) gone. That's usually why they died out in the first place. (Hunting did play a role with the two birds you mentioned, but habitat loss was just as important.)
This is why mustangs are not the example of rewilding people make them out to be. The region where mustangs roam free didn't look anything like it currently does when native horses were still around. The region was cooler, wetter, and had different vegetation. And native horses were stockier and (mostly) smaller than domestic horses - they would have looked like a cross between a Przewalski's horse and a barnyard donkey. They were adapted for eating different grasses, and some of them didn't graze at all - they browsed, more like modern deer. It's not an example of rewilding; it's an example of an invasive species adapting to new surroundings.
But I would agree that a stronger case for rewilding can be made for passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets, only because they died out far more recently.
WarGamer
(17,561 posts)It's wolves with modified genetic traits.
and yes, contrary to opinion, a Saber Tooth Tiger probably couldn't survive in the wild today.
canetoad
(19,320 posts)Thank you. I live close to the 'Dinosaur Dreaming' projects at Inverloch, Victoria and among other cool things, love finding fossils on the rock platforms. So far it's limited to plants and trees, but I'm hoping....
cab67
(3,440 posts)I spent several weeks in Darwin and Alice Springs last year looking at fossils in the museums there. It's been a long time since I've been to Brisbane, but they also have a magnificent natural history museum.
And between the wildlife and people, and the good beer, I love going to Australia anyway.
eppur_se_muova
(39,458 posts)I've had some thoughts on the species concept for several reasons (mostly because I've always been interested in paleontology and evolution, since preschool, despite eventually choosing an unrelated profession), especially including the very different approaches to the species concept based on interbreeding populations vs fossil remains, which usually include almost exclusively skeletal remains for vertebrates. I remember how the term "missing link" kept showing up in the popular press (ever since Darwin) despite the vagueness of the term -- the Futurama episode "A Clockwork Origin" satirized this concept to extinction.
I was also driven to reflection based on a discussion of the meaning of "equivalence relations" in mathematics -- and how concepts of "approximately equal to", if taken to be transitive, can lead to obviously invalid conclusions. Thus two members of a living species have "approximately equal" genomes, and could even be immediately related. But if A is genetically equivalent to B, and B is equivalent to C, and C .... equivalent to ZZZZ, at what point do we encounter a genome that differs enough from A to make viable offspring impossible ? Obviously this is usually discussed in terms of geographic separation of populations, and how many generations of separation are required for genetic drift to lead to speciation. (Cue discussion of Darwin's finches, Galapagos tortoises, and island populations in general.) But the same concept applies to successive generations, as well. No one denies that an organism is related to its ancestors in some way, but at what point in the succession do you drive in a survey marker and say "here lies the boundary between species, because generation 1 and generation 99,999 cannot interbreed/have wholly distinct type specimens ? And if that's true, wouldn't it be true of generation 101 and 100,100 as well ? Or 201 and 100,200 ? How to justify drawing a sharp line in the midst of a continuous gradient ? And how would you ever test the concept of interbreeding between living and dead generations, without complete knowledge of their genomes and absence of at least one breeding example ?
I'm sure I'm not the only one ever to wonder about such things, but I keep finding myself forced to these conclusions:
1) The species concept is a very useful tool, but ultimately an intellectual creation at least as much as a natural phenomenon, and we shouldn't allow it to restrict our thoughts too incautiously.
2) Whatever definition we choose is based on its utility here and now, in the case we are examining, and may not be generalizable even to apparently similar cases.
3) Ultimately, evolution happens, and the evolved and evolving species are under no obligation to conform to our labels (another of our useful, but human-devised, intellectual tools), our behave in line with our theories. General concepts can be extracted (and are powerful within their domains), but are not universally binding. After billions of years of evolution, and millions of recognized species, almost any possible mechanism of natural selection is likely to have occurred at least once, if not repeatedly. So I don't really have a bet on either dog in the Punctuated Equilibrium/Phyletic Gradualism debate, other than to say, "yes, I'm sure that has happened many times; examples abound" to both. Cool names, though, which sometimes seems to matter a lot to their proponents.