Tell me more about how this White House doesn't know how to negotiate, we're all fucked, etc...

[WilliamPitt]

PLAN B DIES IN HOUSE
Speaker Boehner Cites Lack Of GOP Support
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/boehner-calls-off-plan-b-vote?ref=fpa

Boehner’s ‘Plan B’ collapses as GOP calls off vote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/cliff-standoff-boehner-works-to-wrangle-votes-for-plan-b-obama-threatens-veto/2012/12/20/d37cd8c6-4aa5-11e2-9a42-d1ce6d0ed278_story.html

...negotiating stance: gone.

So, yeah...you were saying something about how we're all fucked?

Proceed.

[CatWoman]

1. pleased to give the first rec

[quaker bill]

2. It think it is "proceed Governor"

I have been saying that Boehner couldn't get his majority up for days. He couldn't last time, and it is more or less the same plan with the same guys.

[JaneyVee]

12. I think it's now "Proceed, Speaker".

[Flatpicker]

37. Boehner should realize

they have medication for that now.

[klook]

98. LOL!

If your majority stays up for more than seven days, consult your doctor.

[Yavin4]

239. Or Hire an Escort n/t

[watoos]

140. It's called Merlot

that icky warm wine.

[coalition_unwilling]

107. Haha. Boner couldn't get it up! I dare Leno or Letterman to say it. OK, maybe

it'll be Craig Ferguson.

[cali]

3. The President got lucky.

[MineralMan]

6. Did he, now?

Uff da!

[truebrit71]

225. Yes he did.

[WoodyD]

310. Uff da!

Haven't heard that since I left North Dakota - I see you're from Minnesota. Ya, you betcha.

[brooklynite]

14. Um, right. He couldn't POSSIBLY guess that the Tea Party would stand up to Boehner...

[LiberalFighter]

287. I'm sure Obama has ears in the chambers to report on what is happening.

Much easier to predict the outcome with the teabaggers lingering around. Boehner and Cantor should know their own numbers. Doesn't say much about his leadership compared to Pelosi when she was Speaker.

I get really irked by too many here that are Chicken Little with the sky falling. Especially when they rely too much on the scumbag pundits like Luke Russert and Chuck Toad.

[appacom]

302. Thanks much. A dozen times a day I think this whenever I come here

[Recursion]

34. That makes 6 times he's "got lucky" now, by my count

At some point I have to say the coin only has two heads...

[caseymoz]

163. And with randomness, that's possible. nt

[Recursion]

202. And as likely as any other given sequence, yes (nt)

[pasto76]

289. no, its not

for a two headed coin, each side has a 1 in 2 chance of landing up.

so according to you, and then injecting reality, the president has been (1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(1/2) = 1/64 chance that he is 'lucky' 6 times in a row.

of course, there is nothing random about congress or politics. So you're just kind of an ass

[caseymoz]

293. And you don't know what numbers mean in reality.

While clearly not probable, that is you can't count on it happening, an event (or series) that has a 1 in 64 chance is quite possible. Especially when Obama's victories are unspecified, undefined, cherry picked from memory, and were not even restricted by case to Congressional votes. Did you notice any of that?

Now, look at sports scores throughout a major league sport (except the NFL where the sample is too small. Take five seasons.) Find out how many teams had a six game winning streak. Then, look at where the teams actually finished in the standings. If only you knew a team won at least six games in a row during a season (or an NFL five season period), you cannot predict where the team finished in the standings.

Read Leonard Mlodinov's The Drunkard's Walk. The one thing that should stun you is how many successful CEO's were on lucky streaks, and how the news stories changed about them as soon as the streaks were ended. Mlodinov is a mathematician who works with Stephen Hawking, BTW, so he's not just somebody making a pretentious claim out of his area of expertise.

As it applies here, I'm not saying it's impossible that Obama is that brilliant, I'm saying it's better you don't presume it during his career, but declare it in retrospect.

Was the vote against Boehner's Plan B a victory? On the one hand, it makes the Republicans look bad. It brings us closer to a fiscal cliff where everybody will lose, but one hopes the Republicans will lose more. There's nothing definite about that.

On the other hand, if Boehner is weakened as a leader than any deal he makes with Obama can't be promised, that's bad. Who can Obama negotiate with, then? What it means right now is that there's no end to the stalemate in sight because Republicans are now a plurality in the House and no deal will make them happy.

As was pointed out on NPR, the Republicans are now in gerrymandered districts where a Republican can't lose in the general election. Therefore, the only thing they have to fear to lose their seats is a primary challenger from the farther right.

So far, I can't see a victory for Obama or for the country in Boehner's defeat. We'll know if Obama's a genius in 2020. Right now, it's hard to tell.

It's not like I have to worry about him winning in 2016. I'll go by the policies he proposes and enacts. Chained-CPI is bad. Yes, I think he meant it.

Do you still think I'm an ass?

[freedom fighter jh]

297. Well said. nt

[phleshdef]

35. Thats what Republicans have said about him everytime he has won anything.

You people and the Republicans need to stop underestimating Barack Obama. He is way smarter and more savvy than any of you will ever allow yourselves to admit.

[0rganism]

89. i don't mind if the republicans keep underestimating him

it pays off big-time for us when they get schooled.

[1StrongBlackMan]

131. I agreed; but ...

I wish DUers would stop.

[caseymoz]

222. I doubt after re-election they underestimate him.

Having paranoid delusions is most likely.

[NYC Liberal]

39. Predictable.

Obama appears to do something wrong, he gets all the blame.
Obama appears to do something right, he gets none of the credit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. He jumped the line. Don't you get it. He jumped the line!

Some people are still stuck in March 2008.

[JustAnotherGen]

195. +1

Sad - but true. Same old same old - he must have gotten lucky because he didn't work hard, had special concessions, got a free ride. I'm so sick of that bullshit - not just at him - but all people including myself that look like him.

[rury]

276. Ditto for me!!

Why are white people always "skilled" when they do something well, but blacks are just "lucky?"
Freeze that shit, people, okay?

[grantcart]

53. lol just like he got lucky in every campaign and political fight todate.

He was so lucky to have Hussein as a middle name and be raised by a single mother.

Just a lucky duck for the last 20 years.

[goclark]

265. Right you are grantcart

Happy Holidays

[OldDem2012]

58. A DU Obama critic speaks! Just like I predicted in my post #41. Sad, really. nt.

[Jennicut]

64. Not really. It did not take a genius to figure out what would happen.

The Repubs REALLY are THAT stupid.

[kestrel91316]

68. Your ongoing intense dislike of Obama is duly noted.

[cliffordu]

94. Ah, BULLSHIT.

THIS is only about the third time he's chumped them chumps.

I like you, cali -

But you REALLY need to pay attention to more than the panic peeps.

[CakeGrrl]

122. That's crap. He KNOWS who he's dealing with. Better than anyone in the blogosphere. -nt

[Javaman]

127. I just choked a little...

while laughing out loud.

[1StrongBlackMan]

130. We make our own luck. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

173. I agree and it has set a precedent that SS is a bargaining chip. nt

[fried eggs]

180. Trump? Is that you?

It couldn't be because he outwitted the GOP, once again... could it?

No... he's just LUCKY!

[truebluegreen]

190. No, WE got lucky.

Lucky that the Republicans are too crazy to accept even a good deal from the Grand Bargainer in Chief.

I'm sick of this chess-playing nine-moves-ahead nonsense. If Obama really wanted to sink the Republican brand (which desperately needs doing) he'd make them stand on their positions, instead of moving toward them and making their off-the-deep-end policies sound marginally more moderate.

Yes, we need to govern now, but validating any part of the reich-wing's lunacy is NOT the way to get anything positive done.

Edited to add: having Nancy Pelosi out there claiming a chained-CPI is a good thing was flat embarrassing. WTF does this party stand for?

[bloomington-lib]

203. +1

[stklurker]

221. "sick of this chess-playing nine-moves-ahead nonsense.If Obama really wanted to sink the Republican"

Ummm... huh?? As far as the playing chess goes.. thats how this works, when you have a split Congress its a chess game, plain and simple.. you might have an advantage, but until its over its always a game... And what he did is EXACTLY what you wish.. he offered a plan that showed him potentially willing to compromise... and the Repugs SHOWED that they couldnt do it.. they went back to their "off-the-deep-end policies" and showed that their special interests (no-tax pledge) was more important than the immediate needs of the country. Checkmate...

And I am sorry, I have long said Nancy Pelosi is absolutely useless, her stupid quote 'bank' got another entry..... one reason we have been so stuck in Congress is that Pelosi and Reid are just awful... hate to say it, but its true

[freetrucker53]

231. Only bargaining chip

But is social security Obama's only bargaining chip?

[truebluegreen]

248. Fine.

When they go ahead with the chained-CPI lunacy we can talk again.

[ejbr]

273. + 1 n/t

[quaker bill]

194. and "Chance favors the prepared mind".

[Barack_America]

210. To use one of your favorite terms...pathetic.

[Jester Messiah]

214. Same old cali. Never pleased about anything. [nt]

[snooper2]

238. He must be the luckiest motherfucker on the PLANET lol

[MjolnirTime]

252. The sooner you admit you've been wrong about Obama all along, the sooner the healing can begin.

[emulatorloo]

280. Will never happen. The delusional wing of the left. Similar to Tea Baggers, just different jargon.

But just as out of touch with reality.

[xtraxritical]

263. So? What's next Mr. President are you going to cut defense? I doubt it.

[mimi85]

264. Seriously?

From Bin Laden to the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell - those were all luck?

[11 Bravo]

306. Yeah, because who could have ever guessed that a gang of rabid shitweasels ...

might actually act like a gang of rabid shitweasels? I tell you, the man's a fucking Nostradamus!

[MNBrewer]

4. Here come's the "cliff"

[customerserviceguy]

111. Agreed

With the tea partiers unwilling to vote for a single dollar in tax increases on anyone, and our side pretty much united on voting against any spending cuts (yeah, military, so what) or changes in entitlements, we're definitely going over the cliff.

I guess I'm lucky, I have a job in a utility company where the product is absolutely essential to human life as we know it, and I'm looking to try to get a deal on a car. I was planning on swooping down in the week after Christmas if there was a deal, but I think I'm going to wait until late January now.

[bpositive]

5. The president just got lucky like the

Last time and the time before and the time before that and ...

[Whisp]

86. what else can it be but luck, I mean he's not smart or anything.

or has some awesome smart people advising him and he's willing to listen to other smart people.

[jberryhill]

223. Kenyan Voodoo of some kind

[a geek named Bob]

7. wait a minute...

The GOP controlled congress couldn't get their own bill passed?

Damn.

We may be seeing the slow death spiral of the GOP.

[Flatpicker]

44. Maybe not a death spiral

But, definitely a fracture is coming up.

I just wonder who gets to keep the GOP name?

[a geek named Bob]

52. hmmm... good point...

I can see some sort of "scared old straight white guys" sub party, a "we wish we were the 1%" sub party, and what's left of the (im)Moral majority party sort of standing on the sides.

What's your take on this?

[Flatpicker]

82. I figure

The scared old straight white guys will buddy up with the (im)Moral Majority party.
That should encompass the:

God Botherers, Gun Nutz, Klanzmen (have to change the names to recruit the youth, plenty of x's and z's should show how X-Treme they are), Doctor Killaz. They can become the New Republicans. Probably have a catchphrase like "Are you a Republican't or a RepubliCAN?"

The 1%ers will take in most of the Tea Baggers and use them as cannon fodder in the next round of Robber Barron vs the rest of the country. Seeing as how most of the Tea Partiers think they are Millionaires that are temporarily inconvenienced, the true wealthy can keep dangling that carrot for years.
I could almost see them Taking on the "Grand Old Party" as a name and try to use it as a throwback to Reagan era supporters.

[a geek named Bob]

96. Well said...

On the other hand... the meme I keep hearing is that Texas will likely vote blue, by 2024.

I could easily see the "New and Improved GOP" being a minority party.

The thing that keeps me wondering is... what will this do to the Democratic party?

I've voted straight blue since I was 18. I'd like to imagine that the party will still be around.

[eppur_se_muova]

234. They didn't really try to pass it because they knew ...

McConnell would just filibuster it in the senate ...

[a geek named Bob]

235. that's kind of mean to the turtle.

[ismnotwasm]

244. Heh

[MineralMan]

8. K&R

Interesting, isn't it?

[spanone]

9. this board goes apeshit whenever sausage is being made....

[Whisp]

84. lols. Boner's sausage looks a bit flaccid about now n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

108. Haha. Can't stop laughing - n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

204. LOL!

[Kahuna]

285. Wait...What?!

[Kahuna]

284. +1

[indepat]

10. America will be fucked if any part of social security is on the table for Boner

to gobble up: cuts thereto would thereafter be on the table every year until 'pukes squeeze it down to the size that can be drowned in a bathtub.

[Frustratedlady]

11. I'm with you on this. Gotta love Obama, but won't play poker with him.

Cantor just got his Christmas gift...he can't wipe the smile off his mug.

Go, Bama!

[ReRe]

220. I, too, couldn't believe the ear-ear smile...

...on Eric Cantor's face.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Let us thank the Lord

For our extraordinarily stupid enemies.

And let us take advantage of their stupidity, kick their asses, and send them fleeing unto the hills.

[WilliamPitt]

16. ^^^ This ^^^

[Summer Hathaway]

18. I'd rather thank the Lord

for our extraordinarily intelligent and gifted President.

[Solomon]

73. This

[Tarheel_Dem]

169. Exactly. But, blind hatred doesn't allow some to acknowledge this^^^^!

[Summer Hathaway]

171. What I find astounding

is how totally transparent the blind haters are, and don't seem to realize it. They wrap their vitriol in the 'outspoken concerned citizen' BS - and simply have NO clue as to how obvious they are.

[Tarheel_Dem]

175. I laugh at 'em. They are as comical as the teabaggers who call the president....

socialist, marxist, kenyan, muslim, blah...blah. Of course none of it's true, but they are wedded to their talking points, and stirring up hysteria. I think the technical term is Obama Derangement Syndrome, and it's not exclusive to the right.

[Summer Hathaway]

183. Oh, I hear ya!

Lots of twisted knickers around here tonight. It's rather entertaining, actually.

[joshcryer]

200. I thought the Democrats were the enemy?

[Enrique]

15. he is not a terrible negotiator

in fact he nearly always gets what he wants.

[rhett o rick]

166. I guess you are right if he didnt want single payer health insurance. nm

[madokie]

17. I second that

Yes please proceed

[freshwest]

172. For every OP like this, there are a half dozen saying it ain't good enough.

Earlier, it was 'Go over the cliff you cowardly liar/traitor, don't back down!'

Now it's 'We're going over the cliff because you're a cowardly liar/traitor!'

Wash, rinse, reverse, repeat.

I need to avoid the home page, even trash thread doesn't take the trash off of it.

[forestpath]

19. There was no need to put SS on the table and I don't trust him to not do it again.

[JoePhilly]

23. If Obama's plan is to cut SS, he SUCKS at it.

This is only his 9th or 10th chance to do it. Each time, DU bursts into flames predicting that its absolutely, positively, about to happen.

Then ... nothing.

[Voice for Peace]

38. I know! I was starting to get worried

because I wasn't feeling worried.. now I feel better.

[JoePhilly]

95. And to be fair ...

Everytime DU has a "hair on fire" week or two on this topic ... its a great time to contact your representatives and make sure they know where you stand.

Personally, I think DU could help cause that regular drum beat of contact, without the breathlessness, or the claims that Obama has an evil plan to kill granny. I hated it when the Tea Party made that claim. Makes no more sense here on DU.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

123. well i was just freaking out on another thread. I admit it.

So I am REALLY glad to see this thread. Restores my faith. I read some panic threads and since I've been busy with other things lately, I haven't been watching Media very much.

It didn't seem possible--so out of character with how things have been going. So glad to read this and see the pattern continues. He speaks softly but carries a big stick. Just that every time he's speaking softly, we think THIS is it, he's caving. Hmmmm. <------Dang it, I jumped to panicky conclusions without a clear understanding of latest stuff.

[BlueJazz]

40. The truly stupid thing about messing with SS is the people who receive it ...

...are reminded EVERY month who fucked with it....even in the last weeks before voting.

[mcar]

20. Proceed Speaker

[JoePhilly]

21. Looks like Obama caved on caving.

This is about the 10th time Obama's evil plan to kill Social Security has failed after having been breathlessly predicted here on DU.

[Whisp]

22. Master Spelunker, that Obama. n/t

[Liberal Veteran]

43. I think it is fascinating on the fringes of both parties....

Our party believes he wants to destroy social programs.
Their party believes he wants to turn the US into an welfare state.

[grantcart]

51. ironically our fringe contiues a valued service in making the President look

'Centric'

[JoePhilly]

87. I'd say they make him look reasoned and thoughtful rather than simply ideological.

The right wing claims Obama is an ideological socialist commie, kenyan, blah blah blah.

Our fringe does a great job refuting the notion that he acts based on simple ideology.

The media likes to bring own pundits who will attack Obama from the left and the right. Prior to the election, that was acting to activate the GOP base, and to frustrate the Dem base ... with the media's goal being to keep the election "close".

Now that the election is over and Obama won. The media is unsure how to respond. So they stick with the one element they know works, sensationalism.

Fiscal Cliff .... AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Obama and the Dems have had to manage this so that they remain as the reasonable ones, and trap the GOP. And it appears to be working.

[Barack_America]

211. Mmm hmm. Need to show in a hurry you're making concessions that piss off the left?

Why don't you just tap that third rail with a broomstick? Particularly if you know that specific area is down for service (i.e. that cliff negotiations are dead and Boehner is going to propose a "Plan B" that he won't have the votes for).

Obama has learned to use the internet and social media for more than just campaign solicitations. Now we at DU can count ourselves among his pawns.

Very clever.

[JoePhilly]

80. And both think he hates the middle class.

[cui bono]

138. He still offered it up.

The fact that everyone is so ready to be "right" about Obama, when they're really not, is really sad. I wish people could see what really happened. He put SS on the table. That was unheard of until Obama. That will never go away.

[Hekate]

170. You sure about that?

Just because a negotiator says you can put something on the table doesn't mean he actually means to do anything with it. "Show me what you got. Yeah, show me even that if it makes you feel better," all the while working only on what he, the negotiator, really wants to work with.

[cui bono]

291. Jay Carney said that PBO put it in his proposal. At the Republican's request.

So yes, I'm as sure of it as Jay Carney is and if he's telling the press PBO did it I'll take it as having happened.

[JoePhilly]

212. BS.

Those programs exist. The GOP hates them. As a result, they are always on the table.

And didn't you know ... Obama put them on the table back when he created the debt commission. YUP, that's what I heard here on DU back then.

Then, he was absolutely going to announce cuts at the 2010 SOTU ... didn't happen. Was going to be in his 2010 budget, didn't happen. Was going to be in the 2011 budget ... was going to be in debt ceiling deal.

Each time, it has been predicted in an endless series of DU threads, each more certain than the last. Here it comes, any second.

And then ... nothing.

But its a great mechanism to manufacture outrage against Obama here on DU.

For awhile DADT predictions played a similar role here on DU. Endless predictions that Obama would never end it. The Social Security outrage is more effective however ... even if Obama never touches it, the outrage can repeat itself over and over with each fight between Obama and the GOP. And when the evil thing Obama wants to do doesn't happen, oh well ... just cause it didn't happen, that doesn't mean that Obama doesn't really want to do it.

Its a perfect perceptual outrage machine. No matter how often it fails, just crank it up and it spits out more manufactured outrage widgets.

[Scurrilous]

246. ...

[cui bono]

290. Talk about BS.

They've never been put on the table by a Dem until Obama. Not BS.

He offered them up at the Republican's request this round, as stated by Jay Carney. Not BS.

[appacom]

303. Thanks

[Alfuso]

281. Because he knew

It wouldn't survive the Senate.

[cui bono]

292. And now it is out there to be put on the table at any time.

What a sorry precedent that is. SS should NEVER be on the table, especially when it is put there by a Dem, which was unheard of until PBO.

[Berserker]

24. Thats why

S&P Futures tanked from 1441 to 1406 after hours tonight in a matter of minutes. Market makers have managed to get half of it back.

[nolabear]

25. It's the Mayan Gopocalypse!!

This train just keeps on wreckin'.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

26. K&R nt

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. I think tht is more the fault with a limp Boehner in the Speaker's chair than Obama.

The House can not pass a bill, so nothing is getting done.

[Recursion]

28. Obama has been capable of counting to 218 at least since 2nd grade

I'm sure he's been doing that this whole time.

[Iggy]

29. HUH? Because the Teabagger Mob in the House

can't be controlled by Boehner, and they will NOT accept ANY raise in taxes (particularly for their wealthy masters) that means Obama is a GREAT negotiator??

Hah hah hahhhh!!

frankly, let's go over the fiscal bluff at this point; and get some actual cuts to our bloated defense budget in the process-- since obviously that is the only way its going to get cut.

[WilliamPitt]

32. They knew exactly who they were talking to.

[cui bono]

145. Nope, sorry. You just don't put SS on the table as a Dem. You just don't.

Unless you're Obama and then you can have a "Dem" message board behind you all the way while you stand up for Wall Street and make the little people pay for their excesses.

[byeya]

216. Agree with you and the real Democrats were livid the SS system was put into play.

Nancy Pelosi came out of this weakened because for some reason she thought she had to defend Obama's using Social Security as a bargaining chip.

[Recursion]

42. Yes, counting to 218 passes for good negotiation. It's something most on DU seem incapable of.

So I might be a little slower to criticize.

That said, since we're part of the "noise on the left" that is part of the game, it's probably good that we keep doing what we do.

[Iggy]

56. I Intend to Continue..

if only to counter the utter bogusness in "progressive" Bloggo world, i.e. our government is actually working/functional.

Twenty little kids just got their brains blown out by a well armed madman, AT THEIR SCHOOL.

That, plus the numerous other revolting rampage killings, is just a small portion of the proof our government is a gigantic, epic level failure.

[Control-Z]

30. I'm sorely tempted

to go back to a thread or two and do a little told-you-so dance. But I'm just so grateful Barack Obama is our president and that I'm not a republican. That's enough for me. I almost feel sorry for Boehner. Almost.

[NashvilleLefty]

31. Are you implying that he knew this would happen?

I mean, who could ever have predicted this?

Besides everyone, I mean.

[Recursion]

54. But... but... counting to 218 takes such incredible skills...

only 75% of 2nd graders can do it...

[riqster]

33. The Prexy plays rope-a-dope

And he gets as many punches from DU as he does from the Admiral Akbar and Chicken Little Brigades as he does from the Reeps. More maybe.

[amandabeech]

188. If he didn't put a gradual defunding of the program that has kept older Americans alive

since the 1930s, he would have many fewer problems here.

I am incredibly disappointed in him and you.

[riqster]

208. I trust him. You, apparently, do not.

We will all have to wait and see if our feelings are borne out by the actual results.

[sheshe2]

36. It's time to say good bye to the Orange man!

Bye John...we knew you well!
[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/]image sharing[/url]

You Sniveling Gasbag!

Thanks for the post Will!

[Voice for Peace]

45. but Cantor will be a new smarmy horror

if he gets the Speakership. He sure looked smiley today.

[sheshe2]

63. I know...

However one down...so many to go!

[OldDem2012]

41. Damn right! But, mark my words, this will not quiet Obama's DU critics. nt.

[Liberal Veteran]

49. I still haven't received my pony.

[Surya Gayatri]

65. Of course not--PBO's real world actions in one sense

or another have nothing to do with the underlying animus towards him.

The Prez deserves everything he gets just because... because of whatever "cause célèbre" happens to be chapping their asses that day or week.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

103. Nor will it dissuade him from his efforts to cut SS which has nothing to do with the deficit.

[leeroysphitz]

193. Nor should it. n/t

[grantcart]

46. turn on CNBC and listen to every conservative lambast Boehner

Its like they are a bunch of 9 year old boys and the President sent them boxes of matches and gallons of kerosene and everybody is shocked that there is a fire.

[sheshe2]

106. Spontaneous Combustion!

[WillyT]

47. Ah... 3 Dimensional Chess... What A Game... Remember How We Fooled 'Em Into The Public Option ???

Cause I don't.

[Gregorian]

69. I hate to say it, but I saw this coming. I did not comment on the doom threads, as bad as it looked.

I just knew Obama knew what he knew. Which was... god only knows.

These guys are on their game. And all I can do is watch with confidence.

[WillyT]

77. I Have Always Said That I Hope I Am Wrong About My Suspicions...

And I TRULY hope I am wrong now.

[Overseas]

112. And we're supposed to raise a massive public outcry against bad ideas. If we don't speak up,

legislators may assume we don't know that a Chained CPI is a significant cut.

We need to show that there is very widespread opposition to cruel cuts like that.

[MjolnirTime]

255. and yet you jump to the absolute worst conclusion at the drop of a hat.

You just cannot separate your personal animosity for Obama from your political calculation.

[WillyT]

268. LOL !!! I Have NO Personal Animosity For Obama...

I think he intelligent, witty, and charming. As are his wife and kids.

And I voted for the guy.

My animus, is with HIS political calculations.

[MjolnirTime]

304. you act like you haven't been posting the same crap around here for years.

[WillyT]

305. Said The Guy Who Got Here, Thu Oct 13, 2011, 04:11 AM

Sorry you're so hurt.

Are you gonna be alright, honey ???

[MjolnirTime]

308. You guys always get pissed when someone actually recalls what you have been doing. Why is that?

[GreenPartyVoter]

206. Ditto. What if the GOP had actually gone for it this time? What then?

[TheProgressive]

48. Regarding the chained CPI....As a Democrat, you *never* offer to cut Social Security

There is simply *no* reason to put this c-cpi on the table. It does nothing to help the deficit. It is our money.
All this c-cpi does is reduce the amount of earned benefits that the 'kings' deem fit. Like - here take this and shut up.

Why would Obama and Pelosi want to do this?...unless they want to start the beginning on the end of Social Security.

[OldDem2012]

55. They knew the GOP couldn't accept the chained-CPI option because the GOP is never going....

....to publicly agree to eliminate the tax cuts for the wealthy.

The GOP has been proven once again to have no regard for what's left of the middle class and the growing poor. This will be a major factor for the 2014 midterms.

[TheProgressive]

62. Then, there was no reason at all for Obama to 'put it on the table'...

...unless he was willing to go forward with the cut.

[OldDem2012]

91. I don't recall that the President ever personally put chained CPI on the table....

...even though there was a lot of talk that he did, to include a remark or two from Carney. But, there was never a direct quote from the President himself.

The chained CPI deal was put on the table to make the GOP leadership look even more unreasonable than they have been before. The Republican rank and file nationwide will question why their Congressional leaders failed to take this deal since the dismantling of Social Security has been a major GOP issue. They will begin to realize even more strongly that their leaders are only interested in protecting the Top 2%.

Politics at this level is an infinite series of games within games. To date, the President has won most, if not all of them. This will be a major positive factor for the Dems during the 2014 midterms.

[TheProgressive]

97. No offense, but it is naive to think Obama did not put it on the table...

So, Carney just can lie? Make shit up and everyone is good with that?

I will repeat - the c-cpi is not so 'heavy' as to sway the republicans. What it is, however,
a signal from Obama that he is willing to cut Social Security.

You all ever think that the '3-dim chess' is against *you* (read *us*).

The Democratic Party is the party of the people - how about keeping it that way.

[OldDem2012]

101. How about thinking Presidential-level politics is a lot more complex than you evidently believe? nt

[TheProgressive]

105. I won;t get into a pissing contest with you - you put something on the table then,

you are willing to lose it. Or Use it.

Tell me why Pelosi is all ok with reducing the COLA for seniors...

Really. What is $15B a year compared to the war bill allocating $85B for one year.

Reality is something people should embrace.

[OldDem2012]

124. People say a lot of things in public but very little of it actually becomes reality....

...until then, I embrace nothing.

[cui bono]

141. At that point it will be too late.

And you will have less left to embrace.

[cui bono]

142. The person you are having an exchange with does not believe that Carney

speaks for the POTUS.

[HiPointDem]

196. pelosi herself called it "the president's plan"

[cui bono]

139. Exactly! +1

[liberalmuse]

50. I said as much yesterday.

I'm a shitty gambler, but for some reason, when I bet on Obama, even through frustration, I win. We all win. Because every single time I want to criticize him, and I've come real close, I remember that the guy has this uncanny way of pulling through. It's not just 3 dimensional chess. Our President has a helluva lot of goodwill and karma on his side - or luck. Whatever you want to call it. The guy knew this would happen. He KNEW the Republicans would not be able to muster up the votes. Now President Obama looks like he bent over backwards in good faith, and the Republicans look like a bunch of douche nozzles. And I can almost hear the splash of rats jumping the GOP ship.

[melody]

57. Our President plays 3 Dimensional Chess

He's kicking ass and taking names, yet again.

[cui bono]

146. Oh gawd...

[melody]

158. This was supposed to be a disputing argument?

I thought we could do better in here than silly smiley things. If you don't understand the assertion, just say so. I can explain.

[melody]

229. I love that my cogent reply was removed, but yours was allowed to remain.

I asked "was that supposed to be a disputing argument"? That's somehow ruder than "oh gawd" with weird eyes?

[Jester Messiah]

215. His opponents were playing Candyland.

Unfortunately they've now had a little episode and overturned the board.

[melody]

230. Yup, pouting in the corner n/t

[dsc]

59. that is like saying that whomever plays the Chiefs on a given Sunday knows how to play football

what we can thank God for is that as bad a deal as Obama offered those fools didn't take it.

[WilliamPitt]

74. Hm...

Maybe he offered it...

Because he knew they couldn't take it...

Given who and what they are...

And now he's the guy who put SS up for parley, only to have it rejected...

...by assholes.

I think the safety net is safe in the hands of this administration.

High-stakes poker is not for everyone.

^^^^vvvv Clearly. vvvv^^^^

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. They couldn't agree to their own speaker's $1 million tax hike; of course $400,000 was impossible

Boehner made it a tax hike on $1 million or more, and even got Norquist to bless a tax hike. For all those experts at spotting caving, let me repeat that: Grover Norquist blessed a tax rate hike! Ok, you maybe didn't hear me: Grover Norquist told the GOP it would be OK to vote for a tax rate hike over $1,000,000.

And they still turned it down!

Their own proposal. They voted to cut food stamps and the child tax credit and kick 300,000 kids of nutrition programs, but could not bring themselves to vote for a tax rate hike over $1,000,000, even though Grover Norquist completely caved and blessed a tax hike!

Maybe he offered it...

Because he knew they couldn't take it...

There's much more evidence for that then there is for any other theory.

[solara]

136. Clearly

[url=http://www.cosgan.de/smilie.php][img][/img][/url]

[juajen]

152. Yeah, Will. I am a good bluffer. When I can remember how, I love to play poker.

[Jamaal510]

253. Go Raiders

[loyalkydem]

60. The President plays chess while we all whine moan and complain about him caving

[melody]

159. Well put. n/t

[stupidicus]

61. sure, he's just been yanking the chains of seniors, people that care about them

the members of congress that wanted the social programs off the table, the unions, etc, etc, etc, with something he never had any intentions of ever actually agreeing to.

At best that's a wreckless game of chicken that subjected millions to needless stress and anxiety, and particularly given any need for it would have dissolved on the way down the side of the rocky cliff anyway.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

66. You know,

I try not to use the "I told you so" tactic on people, but I'm fighting the urge to look at my past posts, find those who were ready to a) abandon ship b) disparage the President c) concede the country to the Right etc , sorta get on my case when I encouraged them to relax , this is how bargaining and negotiating is done and say in big bolded letters
"NYAH NONNA NYAH NYAH, TOLD YOU HE WOULD HANDLE IT"
But I wont............

[Hekate]

174. I agree with you: it would be so ungracious

[DemoTex]

67. Obama: Wiser than a tree full of owls.

As my late pappy would say.

[Loudestlib]

70. I avoid DU when the Obama bashers are on a rage

These people make it hard to have any serious discussions. One day, some of these guys are going to come out as Freepers.

[Kahuna]

286. Ditto.. This place has been very appealing for me the past few days.

[flamingdem]

71. K&R

[BarackTheVote]

72. So...

Given if nothing gets passed, we get deep cuts to military spending and an end to the Bush Tax Cuts... Obama comes to the negotiating table as a show of "good faith" and offers up a sacred cow along with a proposed tax increase. GOP turns it down because of their ridiculous allegiance to Norquist. Obama shrugs and says, "hey, I tried." And over the cliff we go. There will be a tax cut for the middle class, and Republican sacred cows drop dead. I like it...

BUT... this is also happening in the public eye, and a lot of people, I don't think, are clever enough to get it (if... that's actually what the tactic was...) Fingers crossed, but, damn, I'm gonna have cold sweats all through the midterms.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

76. I am always willing to do a happy dance at a Republican fail.

It would appear our president knew the Republican congress was immovable on the tax cuts, even at the tune of one million dollars, and called their bluff by putting such an offer as he did on the table.

We have the added bonus of having done a nice job of showing, and being educated in, the regressiveness of a chained CPI.

So, what comes next? Other than the public shaming of Boehner, that is.

[Mockingjay]

78. yes proceed..

President Obama knows when he sees a bunch of DUMBASSES.......

[CranialRectaLoopback]

81. Eleventy-dimensional chess ... Not the good way

Of course the President knew the Speaker would fail. So why did the President propose what he proposed? I believe he was signaling to Republicans where he is willing to go after the nation steps off the curb.

[arcane1]

83. And just a week or two ago, the Senate repubs had to veto their own bill

[OkieLib41]

85. I'm rather new here but.....

What if the GOP would've taken the Presidents proposal? Because I'm not understanding why you would play chicken with changing the CPI to SS even if was a bluff. I've played poker enough to know that if I have the stronger hand I don't bluff myself into a potential worse outcome.

[CranialRectaLoopback]

90. Not chicken, but follow the leader

The President is signaling to the Republicans where he is willing to go after the nation steps off the curb

[OldDem2012]

100. Right. Good luck with that train of thought. nt.

[CranialRectaLoopback]

143. I will enjoy serving you crow, my friend

And will have no problem eating crow, if circumstances demand it.

[WilliamPitt]

92. They couldn't.

Which is why it was offered.

[GeorgeGist]

104. That's sounds childish.

But you may be correct.

[cui bono]

147. And it was a stupid offer.

That will have repercussions even though it was not snapped up.

[OldDem2012]

99. The GOP is not about to publicly agree to eliminating the massive tax cuts to their....

....prime benefactors. They will never willingly do that in a million years, and the President knew that. He called the House Republicans' bluff and walked away the clear winner.

The GOP will now have to deal with the so-called "fiscal cliff", a cliff they seem powerless to avoid and for which they will be blamed by a large majority of Americans.

[cui bono]

148. You are exaclty right.

Welcome to DU.

[DearHeart]

165. Excellent point!! Welcome to DU!!! nt

[Marr]

323. They could have, and it would've likely slid right into being policy.

These people who are claiming the GOP could not accept the offer and that Obama built a brilliant strategy around that fact are deluding themselves.

The only thing Democrats could even be said to gain from the offer is that, in refusing it, the GOP looked irrational and recalcitrant. Well, so what? They've been looking irrational and recalcitrant for years. They've built their brand around that attitude. And what could we have lost? We could've had Social Security cuts.

I don't buy for one second that this was some kind of brilliant, 'rope-a-dope' a strategy. I think it was exactly what it looked like; a "New Democrat" White House offering a bit of policy that the Third Way has been openly pushing for years. The fact that the Republicans are paralyzed by their own psychotic wing doesn't change that.

[kimbutgar]

93. I read somewhere that he is a good poker playing maybe he was bluffing

He knows boehner lost control of his caucus. Cantor is stabbing him in the back.

[coalition_unwilling]

113. Boner tried to draw to an inside straight. Oops! ROTFLMAO! - n/t

[babylonsister]

102. No shit. Thank you, Will. And for those naysayers, where's the

finger emoticon? I'm sorry, it got old.

[MessiahRp]

109. You had better hope they don't end up taking anything similar to Obama's original offer

Or you're going to be stuck eating a crow the size of 3 Thanksgiving turkeys.

I still don't think we're out of the water yet RE: SS/Medicare cuts.

Obama has shown a propensity to cave to the other side in negotiations and give them more than they could ever hope for even if he doesn't really have to. The HCR bill showed he's not the best at understanding the enemy. He figures if he gives them the farm they want they'll be happy but then they decide they want the farm animals, the equipment and the neighbors farms too... and often times he bends over backwards to give them just that even if he only squeezes a tiny amount of votes out of them.

This time around will likely be no different. This wasn't a one time negotiation. Remember he put Simpson/Bowles in charge and seemed interested in their kill SS conclusions. I don't think that they put Chained CPI in there just to bluff the GOP. I think they truly want that cut. I feel like, as per the usual, Obama's team cares more about looking like they are moderates, ie willing to poke liberals in the eye, to try to win over the media and conservatives that they think are holding out but amenable to liking him.

It's a fool's errand really. Clinton also was dumb as shit about wanting the other side to like him and sacrificed us time and time again giving the GOP the very deregulations that Bush would use to cripple us with.

Sorry if I don't trust Obama. He spent 2008 talking like and campaigning as a liberal. Then he got into office and became better than the GOP could have imagined PLUS they got to campaign against the very ideas they really didn't mind much (because ultimately most of his policies benefited their corporate benefactors). I voted for him. I went strong as hell against Romney in every convo I could but he has never shown a particularly strong penchant for doing the right thing for the people without caving to the GOP and their masters in some way or another.

[MotherPetrie]

110. I don't get where Boehner's failure = Obama's success

They are completely unrelated. Obama still wants a deal with Republicans.

[Autumn]

114. I don't know the first thing about poker, but I sure am glad boner

couldn't hold his party together.

[Historic NY]

115. Its the freaking anxiety.....

were going to need automatic valium dispensers from DU central.

[ailsagirl]

116. Egads-- remember when Archie Bunker and his BS was a joke???

[Bonobo]

117. Next year Repubs: "Obama himself offered to it..."

The issue of cuts to SS is now squarely ON the table for now and forever.

It was off-limits and now it is not.

[Canuckistanian]

118. They're dead. Dead, dead, dead.

They have nothing now. They can't be taken seriously any more.

Off the cliff we go, knowing we weren't the ones driving the bus.

[TheKentuckian]

119. We "won" what exactly? We shrewdly got what saying sit and spin would have from the last shit deal

that shouldn't have been made and further reinforced the concept that we need to cut the safety net, and another "high stakes game" in a few months.

THERE HAS BEEN NO POSSIBILITY OF WINNING JACK SHIT SINCE WE ACCEPTED THE CORPORATE PREMISE.

Yay! The TeaPubliKlans can't say yes to a bad deal so we'll take the previous debacle and crow about military cuts and a tax plan we failed to oppose vigorously enough that they didn't have the votes for that should have sunset years ago!

Do you not get that cutting demand when we have nowhere near enough isn't grand?

Yay, we arguable got the less poison pill for today and that is okay but masterful negotiation, it isn't. The same results could be had without negotiating at all.

Now get those crying about the "cliff" in defense herded back up and get back to cheering its coming.

We when nothing by continuously putting the safety net on the table. Please shut it with the "Obama looks reasonable" horseshit, he looks like a duplicitous, asshole sellout. He isn't impressing anybody that can't stop tripping over their tongues in admiration anyway and a few asshole "centrists" that are going to vote for him anyway while praying and preaching for "Hillary45".

There are no good outcomes, worse off than before but not as bad as it could be isn't masterful, it sucks. We never had to be here and sticking with the game plan and worse, pretending it is working for we the people, is crazy.

There is nothing to gain, therefore what you think is clever gamesmanship is despicable and inherently feeds an environment that can only be counterproductive to advancement. Doing something stupid and cruel in the wisest way possible is not praiseworthy in my eyes. The whole effort must be put to a stop not cheered, no matter what the style. You think the people are winning? What the hell is the game? What the fuck do we win?

[dionysus]

133. .

[TheKentuckian]

250. Did the American people get music lessons? Is that what your response means?

[BigBearJohn]

295. BRAVO. If there are more like you in Kentucky, I'm moving there! AMAZING response. Wish I said that.

[freedom fighter jh]

299. Ditto nt

[TheKentuckian]

309. We could use more, come on down.

[Politicub]

120. It was a thing of beauty

And bo honer sounded insane with the tax increase for $1+ million earners. He's a caricature of himself.

[Gman]

121. Too many here have always thought the worst of Obama first

for whatever messed up reasons.

[woo me with science]

125. And this post exemplifies how fucked our party's compass is.

after years now of Third Way propaganda.

Signing on to austerity packages is not a victory. Going over the cliff is the best we can hope for now, but it is still a decided loss. Even if we go over the cliff, we are stuck with triggered budget slashing that Obama is fully responsible for, because he chose to validate the Shock Doctrine scam debt ceiling "crisis" last year. We should not be imposing austerity at all during this economy.

If the Democratic Party wants to claim a victory, it will not happen until AFTER this debacle, IF the party makes a decision to go back to what truly defines a victory: passionate advocacy for and action toward legislation that actually HELPS people and holds bankers accountable.

How propaganda works to change our expectations of the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022033331

They need to give us something that really helps, not expect praise for subjecting us to one of the less painful of the various austerity options they have put into place.

One of the most destructive aspects of this whole debt debacle, ever since it started, has been the unconscionable decision by our Democratic President and corporate Democrats in Congress to validate the right-wing narrative and framing of what is wrong with our economy and what needs to happen to fix it.

Our Democrats had from Day One of this Presidency to correct the lies about austerity and change the narrative. They chose instead to play along.

What used to be understood as REPUBLICAN lies and talking points about the economy and the deficit were transformed into a devastating NATIONAL, BIPARTISAN narrative about the need for austerity that we now have to fight against every single day.

Every single time Democrats reinforce this narrative, it is damaging to the country.

Obama has his entire second term to start giving us some real wins, but this isn't one of them. We need to remind him, and apparently some of ourselves, what a win truly means, and what we should be demanding from our party.

[cui bono]

149. Thank you!

And from now on no one will bat an eye when cuts to SS and Medicare are brought up by either party since the DEM party put it on the table, more than once now.

Sheesh. And people wonder why the Dems are now center and the Repubs are now extreme right.

Obama puts Wall Street in the WH and he's still the Dem hero who can do no wrong and plays multidimensional chess.

[Bonobo]

154. This is SUCH a great post. I wish I could pin it to DU forever. PLEASE make an OP of it. nt

[woo me with science]

156. Done

(close, anyway): http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022044415

Thanks.

[deutsey]

217. The Dems have been cheering Pyhrric victories at least since Clinton n/t

[MFrohike]

126. And?

Why celebrate? The path has been cleared for a man who worships at the altar of deficit hawk quackery. The deficit hawks are ALWAYS wrong, but we're supposed to celebrate the "win" of a man who is proudly one of them? That reeks of the worst kind of sports boosterism. If your team wins in the process of screwing you, I have to wonder exactly what it is that you "won."

[byronius]

128. K&R.

[juajen]

129. sometimes, good things come to those who wait.

[DonCoquixote]

132. I am the first to defend Obama

However, this was a gamble he took that was not needed, because, we never know if Wall Street will get a clue and say "Dammit, vote for this or we put a damned horse's head in your bed!"

Plus, Obama is great under pressure, pressure WE supply, he and the GOP need to know that no, we will not take this lying down, so the GOP will see our antics and go "Obama may have bought that, but we know his party won't" and Obama can go "See Joehn, look what you did, you GOP fools ruined it, again. (as he smirks like Lucy pulling the football away from the GOP.)

Let's chalk Plan B up to "Good work with the letters team, now let's keep the pressure up!"

[customerserviceguy]

134. I see this more as Boner's weakness than as Obama's strength

In any case, it weakens their negotiating position, which means they won't negotiate.

We're going over the cliff in a barrel, hope all of you have enough security to get through it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

135. So DU is ...

Back on President Obama's side again?

[cui bono]

151. It's not about being on Obama's side or not.

It's about being on the people's side or not and whether or not Obama is on the people's side. So far, not that much.

No offense, but your response is the main thing that's wrong with this board. Thinking it's about whether or not someone is for or against Obama and taking it personally rather than it being about the issues and policies he is supporting and pushing for. If you make it about Obama himself you are always going to be upset when someone criticizes him, hence the squabbles and posts like yours and many others in this thread.

If GWB had done what Obama just did EVERYONE on this board would have been livid. If GWB was doing the drone strikes Obama does EVERYONE on this board would be livid. etc... etc... etc...

But people have gotten into this place where they can't seem to separate the man from his actions and that is not good for the Dem party, since his actions are hurting our party and our democracy. At a time when we needed to fight back against corporate America and the banksters he has embraced them and given them a key to the WH. He had so much political capital when he was first elected and everyone was sick of GWB and the whole mess was GWB's fault and he squandered it. Or did he just do what he always wanted or had to since he is so cozy with Wall Street?

[1StrongBlackMan]

155. No offense but ...

for you to say that President Obama has NOT been on the side of the people is B.S. Just about every move President Obama has made proves it ... except to those that don't want to see it.

People need to realize that in a democratic republic, such as our's, governance is all about compromise ... a progress comes through slow advances.

[cui bono]

157. so cutting SS is being on the people's side?

Expanding warrantless wiretapping is being on the people's side?

Drone attacks is being on the people's side?

Saying it is okay to execute American citizens is being on the people's side?

Having back room deals with big pharma and "health" insurance companies and lying to the people about them is being on the people's side?

Tossing out the public option without even trying for it is being on the people's side?

Putting Wall Street in his administration is being on the people's side?

Not coming down hard on the banksters with tough regulations and investigations and indictments but allowing fraudulent foreclosures to continue is being on the people's side?


Sure he's done some good things and I've defended him on those, but don't kid yourself. He's very much on Wall Street's side. You just don't want to see it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

179. And given all that, he's at damn near 60% job approval. Go figure.....

Perhaps the party left you behind?

"When asked about their ideology, Democrats were twice as likely to be “moderate” as Republicans 32/16. 20% of Democrats said they were “very liberal” to 39% of GOP respondents who were “very conservative”. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=259631

[cui bono]

315. Because the general public was relieved to get a Dem to replace GWB

and never in their wildest dreams did they suspect that PBO might continue GWB policies and go even further with them. They figured they were safe from the right wing/corporate raiding of working people's money so they stopped paying attention. They just think everything is fine, they don't know what PBO is actually enacting and proposing. Most people don't pay attention to the day to day goings on of DC. They just know we have an intelligent and articulate president now so they've tuned out thinking we were in good hands.

And since you bring up polls, why is PBO offering up SS when polls show beyond a doubt that the people don't want it cut.

So back to my original question that you never actually answered. Is cutting SS being on the people's side? Is that what you want? Or has the party left you behind?

[Tarheel_Dem]

317. No one is "cutting SS". Oh, the drama!

Now, I have a question for you since you reached all the way back to GWB. If the people disapproved of the president's policies, why did they RE-elect him? You remember? That just happened. We're not talking about 4 years ago, we're talking about days ago. Your entire thesis makes absolutely no sense, and your disjointed ranting somehow seems out of place?

[cui bono]

319. New question then maybe you'll answer the original one and others in that list.

How do you know no one is cutting SS? Obama put it on the table. Do you have the inside scoop? Did he retract the offer?

Obama was re-elected because everyone knows Romney would be thousands times worse.

And you seem to not have read my post because you didn't address it at all. And your comment about reaching back to GWB makes it sound as if there was no reason to do so.

Please reread my comments, if you don't understand them go ahead and let me know what confuses you and I'll make it simpler. I don't like to post things like this but you never address issues and always post things that are an attempt to insult me, so fire with fire I suppose.

If you care to actually talk about issues without making your snide comments I will retract the above paragraph and we can start anew. If you do care to do that, can you please tell me how all those things that Obama has done (which is not reaching back to GWB except to say that if he had done them every single Dem on this board would have loudly objected - so your comment saying my thesis makes no sense is incorrect and also doesn't explain why it makes no sense, so if you can explain why, do it, don't just say it makes no sense) are acting on behalf of the people? You haven't answered that yet and that was the post you responded to originally. If we're going to discuss this then let's do it and let's do it in a logical manner.

[Tarheel_Dem]

320. Obama didn't run against Bush. The candidate this year was MITT ROMNEY!

I thought everyone knew that, hence my confusion. And since when do you speak for "everyone"? You certainly don't speak for me. Try to confine your all encompassing, grandiose statements to why YOU voted for him, OR NOT.

Again, you don't speak for "everyone". I know exactly why I voted for President Obama. I think that may be the root of the problem with the Obama trashers. They claim to have worked harder, rang more doorbells, walked more pavement, placed more phone calls than anyone else in the president's huge coalition. It's just not true, and no matter how many times that lie gets repeated, won't make it so.

I place no qualifications on my position that SS was never in danger from this president. He knew Boehner couldn't make a deal, especially ahead of the vote for Speaker. "On the table" is just the president's detractors way of being outraged just for the sake of outrage. I'm much more concerned about the 2 mil people who might find their unemployment suddenly stopped, should we not reach a deal. Whether SS recipients might "hypothetically" lose a hundred bucks for a couple of years, compared with unemployed people losing everything, I'd be willing to take that chance. Luckily, we don't have to.

[cui bono]

321. Who said Obama ran against Bush? That has nothing at all to do with what I'm saying.

My point was that Obama has expanded a lot of what Bush did and yet even though everyone did and would complain about it when Bush did it, a lot of people are defending Obama constantly when he is doing those same things. Did you really think I said that Obama ran against Bush? I doubt it.

I never said I spoke for everyone. This is a message board where people voice their opinions. Talking about speaking for everyone... where did I make the claims you listed? And if you are going to use the term "Obama trashers" shall I use the term "Obamabots"? Again, if you want a discussion, you have to curb that kind of talk and also speak to the issues.

As to your last paragraph you couldn't be more wrong with this statement:
" "On the table" is just the president's detractors way of being outraged just for the sake of outrage."
Whether you want to admit it or not, Obama put SS on the table. It is a fact. He offered it up at the Republicans' request and Jay Carney said so at a press briefing. So you can deny it but that doesn't mean it's not true.

I'm glad you are concerned with unemployment. I am as well. Both are a travesty. And one should not be offered up to save the other. PBO has the leverage and has sanity on his side. For him to put SS on the table is a HUGE mistake and something NO DEM should EVER do. It used to be unthinkable until Obama. And there was no reason to bring SS into this negotiation. It pays for itself and doesn't contribute to the national debt or deficit in any way.

Anyway, see? We agree on something. Unemployment should not be suddenly stopped. But SS should not be put on the table either.

Oh, and btw... you STILL haven't answered my questions about how any of those things on my list were being on the people's side. Perhaps that's why you tried to change it to something about Bush running against Obama which I never said.

So, can you answer me? How are all those things being on the people's side? If you're going to call anyone who criticized Obama an "Obama trasher" then prove it. Show me how all those things he does are defensible. Defend them. If you can't then you should apologize for using that term and admit that there are things he needs to be criticized for and that he should be held accountable, just like any other president. If we don't criticize and let him know, he won't get better.

[Stewland]

298. These points are well taken

I voted for President Obama because I saw him as the lesser of the two evils. This being said I had to put a clothespin on my nose to do it. Jill Stein may have been the best choice we had. Obama is just a lite version of Bush. At least he is progressive on some social issues. Romney would have been a huge disaster for not just this nation but for the whole world. Campaign finance reform is what is called for. Until we get it, this dysfunctional system is what we get.

[Skittles]

161. CORRECT

well said, cui bono

[cui bono]

137. Obama has still put SS on the table more than once now.

In the past no one would have dared talk about touching it. Obama has made it common place to talk about it.

How do you know he will take it back off the table if/when we go off the cliff, or tomorrow for that matter?

Save the accolades until they've been proven earned please. Proceed.

[senseandsensibility]

144. I have to agree,

although it gives me no pleasure. Well said without any unnecessary drama.

[msanthrope]

150. No sheet changing, eh??? And I mean that in the nicest way possible, Will.

I really do.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

153. At some point, is Obama going to give up his plan to reduce SS by using a chained-CPI?

Cutting SS is not going to reduce the deficit because it's not related to the deficit.

[Skittles]

160. I keep thinking something is up, that we don't know the whole story

[Fearless]

162. Sounds more like the Republican Party knows how to stick to its guns while we throw the

Baby out with the bath water. Good thing we didn't throw far enough.

[caseymoz]

164. This is better, how?

It doesn't seem to occur to anybody that with John Boehner unable to marshal his party, that means he has no standing negotiate. How is having nobody to negotiate with better for Obama? It's almost guaranteed now no deal will be reached before the end of the year.

Unless Obama knows who would replace Boehner, and that person is likely to be moderate, and can somehow guarantee enough Repubs will vote with Democrats. Does that seem like that will happen soon?

I like how people are reading randomness as pure genius, but, then again, randomness made Hitler look like a genius.

[DonCoquixote]

167. Hitler?

Be wary,as way too many analogies are made to Hitler as flamebait. Not saying that was what YOU meant, but mentioning the H word on here is like pushing a "freak out" button.

[caseymoz]

184. I only said Hitler had a lucky streak . . .

. . . that made him look like a genius. No ideological or political comparisons.

[DonCoquixote]

186. point noted

I was just letting you know that the H word tends to set off a lot of mayhem here.

[agentS]

168. I figured this would happen

Obama could offer ending Medicare, SSI, SS, and boosting military spending by 2 billion a year, the bums would still vote NO.
So we go over the fiscal cliff, which does increase revenue but comes with drastic cutbacks to food stamps and the like.

Bonor the Orange is in deep trouble- he's gonna hafta wait until the new Congress convenes in order to get a deal. And Obama knows this- that means some cuts will be scaled back and CPI gets taken off the table.

All this stuff today is Kabuki theater. Obama and the Dems come out looking reasonable, the less crazy Repubs can say "look at the Tea Party- they're tying our hands" and the teaparty folks look tough in their voters' eyes.

[tavalon]

176. Not to be too contrary,

but I think this says more about Boehner's ineptitude than the skill of this White House.

[cliffordu]

177. K&R.

[Hekate]

178. Thank you Will

But I'm afraid there's still a lot of smoldering hairdos at DU. I think opposition, anxiety, and fury get to be a habit with some, which is too bad.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the Meep-Meep thread very much
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=266312

Hekate

[quakerboy]

181. The president agreed to harm social security

And other important things. Whether it passes into law or not, I count that as a loss.

Kinda like telling your best friend that you want to give your kids away, then realizing that the kids overheard it. Whether you do it or not, whether you meant it or not, they now have that little bit of fear, uncertainty in their hearts. That's damaging.

[hfojvt]

182. there's still 10 more days to go

You cannot count Obama out yet.

He's likely to offer a deal at $700,000 next.

It's a little bit premature to be gloating over his victory.

Like John Paul Jones, his ship has not gone down and he has not yet begun to cave.

[AgingAmerican]

185. Really all we have to go by is his previous deals with the republicans

n/t

[lamp_shade]

187. Rec #184

[Cosmocat]

189. All due respect - bullshit

He is a genuine guy.

If he put an offer on the table, he was prepared to have it accepted.

This whole "he is just trying to make them look unreasonable" bullshit.

If people don't get that they are complete jackasses by now, this little bit of "three dimensional chess" isn't going to be the thing that suddenly sparks some electric activity in the cerebral cortex.

[Rowdyboy]

191. Confusing people with facts is an old tactic.....

And it still works!

[aandegoons]

192. This is absolute bullshit.

A logical fallacy. He could have easily put another item on the table instead of this fucked up version of chains.

It's the whole lot of them which should be in chains not us.

[T Roosevelt]

197. The President only cares about "the deal"

He doesn't care about the legislation. The only way this works as a bluff is if down the road he can tell the Republicans that "I offered chained CPI, and you rejected it", taking it completely off the table by pinning the reason on them. Then he has stuck with that position, and never allow it to be a negotiating point.

History is not on his side on this one...

[joshcryer]

198. lawl, didn't you know, it's all over!

But I expect this is the first step. We'll see what happens.

[Bluenorthwest]

199. So there's a deal now? Social Security is no longer on any table and never will be?

Great. Then the sick and the elderly who were used as something of a financial hostage should be rewarded for the exploitation and for the fear they went through.They have earned the right to future protection promised in great detail.
It was wrong to put Social Security on the table at all. Wrong. To use millions of the least among us as pawns in a political theater is always wrong. When anyone exploits any weaker party for personal advantage they owe the exploited party. When the exploited parties are our elders, whom we should never place in fearful circumstances, that debt is large and needs to be addressed.
Of course on DU, a rich politician's feelings are far, far more important that our elder's peace of mind and well being.
Will, let me know when those offers are fully and officially off the table and Seniors fears have been put to rest.

[joshcryer]

201. Great?

There's 10 days left. No guarantee it's off the table, but it certainly shows even the GOP's unwillingness to gut it. Showing that Obama totally threw it out there and they didn't bite. That's hilarious in and of itself.

[Bluenorthwest]

205. There is no deal. The objective of these negotiations was not 'no deal and Boehner looks bad'

and no one has said the offers have been rescinded. Most of the money I have made in my life has been under fiercely negotiated contract. One never offers that which one can not live with, ever. Using third parties who are unaware (this is what the OP says Obama did, used elders as a prop in the negotiation theater) is a weak tactic and parties so misused deserve instant and full explanations the second negotiations are finished.
If you feel your skills are so weak that you have to hold a gun to granny's head to make a point, later you have to apologize to granny. Them's the rules, the breaks, that's how the deal making train must run. And in future, you owe Granny big time. Big time. Big, big.

[Liberalynn]

209. Well said and I have the same question

do we know for sure that SS is off the table in any deal? I haven't heard that yet from any one official and won't celebrate until that is for certain. The Pres and Boehner could still agree to the Pres deal and then vote on it with joint Dem and any PUKES they can get to go along.

I hoped this was over last night when Boner came out and said he couldn't get the votes. But then watched MSNBC late last night and Bill Press this morning. They were saying Boner could acccept the deal Pres gave him with Chained CPI in, and they could pass it with whatever Puke support combined with Dem support they could get.

When someone official announces Chained CPI is out I will celebrate and offer apology to the President. Until then I am not counting my chickens before they hatch.

[Logical]

207. LOL, our side spins shit as bad as the GOP! Obama can do no wrong!

[Barack_America]

213. He can do plenty wrong, but generally not from a lack of wits.

[blackspade]

218. Will, I've loved your OPs over the years....

But I have to disagree.

Hoping that your negotiating 'partner' will implode is not a good strategy.
I wouldn't say that Obama was lucky, but playing russian roulette, is a dicey proposition.
The odds were in his favor, but he didn't need to use the SS cuts as part of his bargain.
The 'thugs were not going to work with him no matter what and all he did was damage himself with his base.

[Eddie Haskell]

219. Yep

Plan B's defeat has nothing to do with Obama's strategy. He didn't even see it coming.

[truebrit71]

224. So because Boner can't get his sheep in a row Obama is genius?

...I don't think so...Obama lucked out because Boner over-estimated his influence..

I agree that Boner now is left with nothing to negotiate with, but that is more because Boner is an idiot than Obama being the ultimate Ninth-Level 3-D Ninja Chess-master...

[dawg]

226. Did I miss something?

Has the debt ceiling been raised? Have the middle-class tax cuts been extended? Have the sequestration spending cuts been avoided?

Do we seriously think we are better off because Boehner can't control his caucus?

Do we seriously think we will be better off negotiating with Speaker Cantor?

All the high-fiving I see today strikes me as pretty dumb. I am disappoint, DU.

[olegramps]

227. The failure of Boehner's Plan B is exactly why Obama should have stood his ground.

For over four years Obama promised that he would not touch Social Security because it did not contribute to the dept. In fact when the congress raided it to give the wealthy tax breaks it has actually helped to balance the budget since it ran a surplus. He stated that he was firmly committed to returning the Clinton tax rates for those making $250,000 and up. Now it is $400,000 and Chained CPI for Social Security benefits. Disappointed, yeah, I sure as hell am disappointed.

Boehner and his damn party can go to hell. Nothing more than a pact of fascist bastards who are intent on destroying the nation.

[heaven05]

228. well

I told you all that he's not going to betray our standing in a voting line for 9 hours trust. He just AIN'T going to do that to us. Yes we have to keep up pressure, emails, calls ect, but he won't betray us.

[jsr]

232. Kinda like having to beg your spouse everyday to not cheat on ya.

[Johnny2X2X]

233. Boehner

Obama was negotiating with an empty suit. Boehner doesn't have his own party behind him, so you might as well be negotiating with the night janitor at the Capital Building.

This moves to the Senate now, but does anyone really think Mitch McConnell is going to want to get anything done.

We're going over the cliff, period.

[Oilwellian]

236. Bookmarked n/t

[JEB]

237. Way past time

to stop negotiating with Boner. There is nobody to negotiate with on the right. Now Obama needs to negotiate with those to his left. No cuts to SS, medicaid, medicare, tax the rich, cut the wasteful, corrupt defense Dept.

[Tarheel_Dem]

322. Sounds like a civics lesson might be in order? Obama has to "negotiate" with the.....

Speaker of the House. Negotiating with the left is ridiculous, since the "the left" doesn't control the House.

[JEB]

324. Maybe left leaning voters

won't be as willing to cast their votes the next time around if there is not a measure of reciprocation. Many Democratic voters were hoping for better results. I am still hopeful that the eventual deal will be a plus for working people. I'm sure that the 1% and the Corporations will fare just fine.

[Tarheel_Dem]

326. There's always the Jill Stein Party, The Roseanne Party, The Rocky Anderson Party.

They were a resounding success this last election. I'm not sure what liberals don't get about divided government. All their platitudes and talking points aside, they seemingly have no real grasp of who is standing in the way of the kind of deal you're espousing.

"The deal" has to be one that both parties can live with, that's what divided government means. The bellweather of any deal coming from this will be when both extremes go ballistic, then we'll know we've just about got it right.

[JEB]

327. Just keep sliding to the right?

No matter how crazy and uninformed the opposition is? OK, then.

[JEB]

328. I voted for BO

given the alternatives but will continue to support positions I believe in. I really don't think it does anybody much good to be a blind cheerleader.

[Tarheel_Dem]

329. MMMMkay!

[Liberal1975]

240. I am glad of course

But before we all do a victory lap, both of us Obama believers and Obama doubters, let's take the advice of the believers and see what happens. This thing ain't done yet. What if Obama decides that avoiding another a Great Recession is worth giving up even more than he gave away to Boehner?

I don't think Obama was playing Vulcan chess by putting CPI on the table I think he is (rightfully) scared shitless of another economic meltdown. Wall St is scared shitless, the global markets are scared. That fear is what the TeaParty is banking on. Their "negotiating" style is not any different from how terrorists "negotiate" that's why we don't negotiate with terrorists.

[bread_and_roses]

241. He opened the door to SS cuts while he he didn't have to -

I don't call that such great negotiating.

[BlueStreak]

242. Kindly tell me how he's going to get back all the concessions he has already offered

Kindly explain to me how it is a brilliant negotiating strategy to have put lots of cards on the table that will become the new starting point when the next round of negotiations starts, considering that his opponents gave up absolutely nothing in the process.

The only answer I have heard is that it makes how look better in the PR race. But he was already winning that 55% to 10%. Is it really worth capitulating on so many points just to maintain the 55% to 10% PR advantage, considering that Obama doesn't ever actually *DO* anything with that PR advantage? Hell, we rarely even uses the bully pulpit.

No on second thought. Don't wast my time trying to make that argument. The reality is clear for all to see.

Worst.
Negotiator.
Ever.

[arely staircase]

313. generally an offer has to be made again once rejected

eom

[BlueStreak]

314. But they know he is willing to give up chained CPI and at least $400K as the income limit

Obama will never get that back unless he feels so much heat from the left that he is forced to take it back.

But we don't need to argue about it. The answer will be plain to see in a few days.

I predict the final deal will include both those concessions, and probably much greater than $400K -- probably more like $750K.

[arely staircase]

316. there is nothing to get back

when party A mmakes an offer and party B rejects it, party B isn't entitled to show up the next day and say "ok, I accept." yeah, there should be pressure on the left to keep him from offering such things again. but as of now that offer isn't out there. it died when the gopers rejected it.

[JDPriestly]

243. The OP is way overoptimistic.

The negotiations are continuing over the Christmas break, and only the military is winning. No one else.

Worst of all, the country is being divided more than ever. Now they are pitting the unemployed against seniors. And all to save the military budget.

That is just sick, just sick.

[MjolnirTime]

256. The Negativity is strong with this one.

[ibegurpard]

245. And if they come back and accept his previous offer?

How does he squirm out of that?

[MynameisBlarney]

247. DOOOOOOMED! DOOOOOOOOOMED!

The GOP is DOOOOOOOMED!

[madrchsod]

249. i see the "obama lost the first debate" folks still don`t get it

he knew the republicans would never ever expect anything he offered. so now he exposed the republicans in the house putting themselves above the american people.

round two will be really interesting......

[djean111]

251. If I spoke for the GOP, I would just say I couldn't accept a deal that would affect Social Security.

What a gift they have been given!

[AnnieK401]

254. To be fair, is it really that difficult to outwit the GOP?

They think with their guns.

[Jamaal510]

258. "They think with their guns."

Do they even think, though? Many of them still believe that climate change is a hoax and they demonize socialism while relying on public highways and police.

[BlueCaliDem]

257. Thank you! Enthusiastic kicked and rec'd.

Too bad too many around here had already lit their hair on fire. When will they ever trust this president to do the correct thing for this country?

[former9thward]

259. Tell the two million unemployed that lose benefits at the end of the year about the negotiatons.

[nolabels]

262. They tell us they are going to give us pain if we don't give them what they want

You can do mostly just a couple things when pain comes.

One, you can live with it and hope it heals and goes away, or, two, fight it from where it comes from to make it go away, and lastly just die for some reason because you could no longer deal with it.

As a group we seem to of mostly chosen the number two option. The group seems to be holding together for a greater good. It's not much different than watching a flock birds fly south for the winter. They may stop once in while for a rest but process will still continue till they get there

[closeupready]

260. K&R

[Luschnig]

261. Spin this:

Obama & Dems - 1
Boehner & GOP - 0

[Baitball Blogger]

266. Splain for us devoid of negotiating skills.

So, the White House set a trap for Boehner?

[FiveGoodMen]

267. Here's more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022049710

[Robb]

269. They were playing taps for Boehner on NPR this morning.

That's something. K&R.

[sulphurdunn]

270. "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Obama

It's progressives who remind Obama (and the Democratic Party) that there is a price to pay for selling them out. They make him do it, not his worshipers. Politicians and their parties are not sports teams. They represent the interests of those able to bring the most power to bear upon them. They have no loyalties, only interests, and neither should we.

[JEB]

325. Yeah,

that is how I see it. We will only get what we fight for, no matter who is POTUS.

[Ford_Prefect]

271. They say the fight game is won by rounds. I think we just saw round 1.

[CheapShotArtist]

272. After all the "Obama puts SS on the table" and "Obama is caving" threads,

this thread is refreshing to see. The FUDing has gotten so bad on here since the election that I rarely post on here.

[KoKo]

274. But..Will...he governs for "SOME DEMS"...but not for us ALL Here:

Obama's Speech at Brookings Institution 2006...where he lays out that FDR's Programs need "revisiting." (Implication by him..."FDR's Programs are Out-Dated&quot

This is a very important Speech of Obama in 2006 laying out what he would be as President. Do you remember this speech?

Anyway...we all need memory refreshers these days with all the going on these days that frankly gets kind of depressing. But...here it is..in President Obama's Own Words to Brookings in front of the Bankers he saved...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022051328

[Firebrand Gary]

275. So awesome! Thanks for posting this! Laughed out loud!

[JDPriestly]

277. Negotiations are entering phase 2, but they aren't over until the deadline is passed.

That's my opinion. The Republicans got a lot of calls from irate constituents, and they are going home to test the waters with their donors.

[Bake]

278. Did we suddenly get a deal that averts the fiscal cliff, doesn't touch Soc Sec, and

raises taxes on those earning more than $250K? And I missed it?

Damn.

Oh wait. We didn't. So far we got NOTHING.

Bake

[emulatorloo]

279. Will: thanks. Getting sick of these negative bullshit lying posts

from the loud handful.

[grahamhgreen]

282. Because he's negotiating with himself! We were saved from Social Security cuts by..... Boner????

[Bluenorthwest]

283. Two great Will Pitt threads from the past:

"The right wing thrives on vitriol, hate and divisiveness. When the bile they spew goes unchallenged, their disease infects the people around them. They will not lie down, Mr. President. You are going to have to put them down - with true progressive action, not the frail rhetoric of appeasement.
No one has ever proclaimed a die-hard commitment to centrism. No one has ever held a rally to support bipartisanship. Those are Washington DC catchphrases that mean nothing, serving only as a fog for professional politicians huddling together inside the beltway, too timid and too immersed in campaign logic to stand for anything."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7521150


And his theory that Rick Warren's bigotry won 2008 for Obama. Not Obama, not Axelrod, not the American Electorate. Rick Warren won 2008 for Obama:
"What is better for America in the long run? Keep Warren off that stage, or keep winning Red states and annihilate the GOP? Put Warren up there, and maybe we keep winning, and after enough wins, there won't be any more "Warren" types in enough numbers to bother with."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4672637

Pitt is all over the place and his only metric seems to be 'correct = what Will is doing, incorrect is what others especially gay others, are doing.

[WilliamPitt]

288. So much for Juries

"'correct = what Will is doing, incorrect is what others especially gay others, are doing"

Put your money where your mouth is. You have my full attention, link-hoarder. Show me you're right.

[Skittles]

294. not me

I had the feeling something was up

[SkyDaddy7]

296. YES!!

Could not agree more! We have a faction on "our side" that seem to want President Obama to fail. They really do end up eating their words most of the time & then resorting to blaming President Obama for things out of his control like what happened with GITMO & Single Payer. Oh well, I have actually grown use to it after 4yrs but it is still nice to see the FACTS set folks straight like the OP pointed out.

[bvar22]

300. Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth,

the Score is STILL Zero to Zero.

After the last 4 years, it certainly seems like a victory for the Democrats
if the Republicans don't get everything they want and more.... yet.
I guess, in a way, that is a step in the right direction for the Democratic Party.
This, in and of itself, is worth celebrating.


My BIG problem is that President Obama has ,
once again, pushed Social Security into the pot on the gaming table.
All of the threads, your included, praise Obama for Not Losing our Social Security.
NONE have addressed the fact that Daddy is gambling with the Rent Money.

What was once a Sacred, inviolate cornerstone of the Democratic Party,
the Untouchable 3rd Rail has been reduced to a gambling chip.
He HAS set a precedent that has forever diminished the status of Social Security.
The Rubicon has been crossed, and it was crossed by a Democratic President.

Social Security will NOW be On-the-Table in every future Budget or Spending negotiation... until eventually it is lost.
Even Bobby Fischer lost at Chess occasionally.
Obama HAS violated the Cardinal Rule:
Never Gamble with the Rent Money.

The reduction in status from "You DIE if you touch this (3rd Rail)"
to "Lets go ALL IN"
IS a victory for Republicans ,
AND the forces that have always lusted for the Social Security Funds.
THAT is not worthy of a celebration on a Democratic Discussion Board.

my 2 cents.

[grahamhgreen]

307. +1. "Obama HAS violated the Cardinal Rule: Never Gamble with the Rent Money."

Instead of going after Big War, he went after the safety net for the elderly.

Major fail. Unless you're a plutocrat.

[Skraxx]

318. What Planet Do You Live On? Cause On This Planet, Not Only Have Changes to SS Been Discussed

in the past, they've actually been implemented, including benefit cuts.

So nice to see that you are the arbiter of what is 'sacred' and what we are allowed and not allowed to discuss on this Democratic society.

Pray tell, what else is off limits for hypothetical discussions? What else is verboten, oh wise one?

[samsingh]

301. if Obama doesn't pull a first debate on us - he could do tremendous good for this country

1. safeguard voting rights and standards in all States regardless of who's in power
2. strengthen Universal Health Care
3. exand the Supreme Court (i believe he has the power to do it) and roll back Citizens United
4. solidify LGT rights
5. respect the decisions some States are making to legalize Weed. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT AND WILL TRANSLATE TO YEARS OF VICTORIES
6. get gun violence under control. Build a coalition against the NRA so that they are irrelevant as they should be
7. strengthen support for Women and the middle class.
8. invest in green technology and education.

[Number23]

311. K&R Better late than never, especially around here

[Rex]

312. The back tracking is getting ridiculous.

I don't know what will be the next 'thing' when we get what we want and they cut nothing. Should be interesting to watch how they explain it.