BULLSHIT that it's a victory. Let's get our compasses straight as Democrats.

[woo me with science]

BULLSHIT that anything happening now is a victory or that we should be celebrating a Third Way chess game. Let's get our compasses straight as Democrats.

Signing on to austerity packages is not a victory. Going over the cliff is the best we can hope for now, but it is still a decided loss. Even if we go over the cliff, we are stuck with painful, certainly regressive, triggered budget slashing that Obama is fully responsible for, because he chose to validate the Shock Doctrine scam debt ceiling "crisis" last year. We should not be imposing austerity at all during this economy.

If the Democratic Party wants to claim a victory, it will not happen until after this debacle...and only IF the party makes a decision to go back to what truly defines a victory: passionate advocacy for and action toward legislation that actually HELPS people and holds bankers accountable. Let's not fall for the Third Way propaganda of steadily diminishing expectations:

How propaganda works to change our expectations of the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022033331

One of the most destructive aspects of this whole debt debacle, ever since it started, has been the unconscionable decision by our Democratic President and corporate Democrats in Congress to validate the right-wing narrative and framing of what is wrong with our economy and what needs to happen to fix it.

Our Democrats had from Day One of this Presidency to correct the lies about austerity and correct the narrative about the economy and our national values. They chose instead to play along, and we have since been subjected to the disgusting, unconscionable spectacle of our seniors and poor being used BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY as bargaining chips.

What used to be understood as REPUBLICAN lies and talking points about the economy and the deficit were transformed into a devastating NATIONAL, BIPARTISAN narrative about the need for austerity that we now have to fight against every single day.

Every single time Democrats reinforce this narrative, it is damaging to the country.

Obama has his entire second term to start giving us some real wins, but don't you dare try to tell us that this is one of them. They need to give us something that really helps, not expect praise for subjecting us to one of the less painful of the austerity options they helped the Republicans put into place. We need to remind them, and apparently some of ourselves, what a win truly means, and what we should be demanding from our party.

[villager]

1. Our expectations are so low that "it's not a staggering loss yet!" is viewed as resounding victory

Alas.

[GreenPartyVoter]

93. That's a good way of putting it.

[limpyhobbler]

137. yep

[Whisp]

2. this is the pattern - you guys get to ride roughshod on Obama for about 2 days...

call him names, say he's worse than worse and wants to demean us all.

then reality checks in and proves you wrong.

then it's an op like this.

rinse repeat ho hum

[MotherPetrie]

11. Has he withdrawn his offer to the Repugs?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

25. Nope. And if he's true to form, he'll probably sweeten the offer.

[jsr]

88. Precisely.

The rules of intergalactic chess require it.

[Jackpine Radical]

102. He had to destroy SocSec in order to preserve it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

106. That's his story. How soon is he going to publicly state that he wants to privatize it in order to

save it?

Nothing that Obama does would surprise me anymore.

The only thing that suprises me at this stage is that there are so many people who want to be fooled again. They are like kids watching a smiling magician show a card trick and then saying "Show us again. Show us again."

His act of getting elected the first time and giving free passes to the banksters was among his first tricks. And this was after he helped give them hundreds of billions of dollars. His act of saying that he wanted health care reform and than working for health insurance reform was another one. In the Supreme Court, his Solicitor General saved the ACA by arguing that the compulsory-purchase portion was a tax. Yet the show-us-again crowd are willing to think that he did not raise taxes on the middle-class and that he obtained health care reform. He's showed many more card tricks, and is planning on some more. One being signing another let's-send-American-jobs-to-foreign-countries "free-trade" agreement.

There's no wonder why he can't keep from smiling.

[1StrongBlackMan]

126. Okay

[heaven05]

147. keep

sharpening those knives. Problem is a lot of people speak about knowing what's going through the minds of some of our elected officials, like they're a fly on the wall in the white house, come here spew all their right of center bullshit and then get pissed off when shown they are wrong, double down on their bullshit and keep sharpening those brutus/quisling knives waiting for any misstep by our President. They really can't help themselves. Never seen more hypocrisy in my life.

[cui bono]

14. It's not personal. And when you can separate the policy from the man

maybe you will see it too.

You think we enjoy having to be critical of a Dem president? I, for one, would love to sing his praises but I only do it when he deserves it. I don't do it just because he is a Dem president.

[plethoro]

15. With specificity has he withdrawn his offer to the Republicans? Any

answer that is nothing more than an expansive depiction of Obama and/or his motives doesn't work for me. The Chained CPI offer was made. Whether it is culminated or not is not totally important. The offer to cut Social Security was made. By a Democratic President.

[shrdlu]

176. It's worse than criminal. It's a mistake...

...Dems get in good and effective jabs at no-tax right-wingers by reminding that even the sainted Reagan was willing to raise some taxes. Bet your boots, pardner, that down the road Dems trying to preserve remnants of new deal and great society programs will be taunted, effectively, with reminders that even the sainted Obama was willing to cut social security and medicare. It didn't have to be...in the words of Morning Joe: "Sweet Jesus!"

[plethoro]

180. Exactly, shrdlu. I am so pissed off I can hardly type. Even this last minute

announcement by Obama of a cancellation of the cuts he offered, which was non-specific (purposely) is suspect. Here's the problem: Obama won by 4% popular vote although the EC was much bigger. What per cent of the population now thinks he's trying to cut Social Security? 5%? 10%? No matter his sudden change. Most of the these folks don't know what 13-level chess is. Are we going have 4 more years of standoffs because of this? After the first of the year will there be an attempt at reducing ss for certain income levels. In other words means-testing? Anyway, thanks for your post. Have a nice Christmas. Bah Humbug.

[lobezen]

16. He offered up social security yet AGAIN after

he explicitly said during the campaign he would not. What reality check are you referring to exactly?! I've noticed a quite different pattern. Obama says Social Security is off the table. He puts Social Security on the table even when he doesn't need to. He does his usual crappy negotiating job. And then a bunch of apologists tell the rest of us, who point out his lack of negotiation skills and his trashing of traditional Democratic party values, that we "just don't understand his 14 dimensional chess moves" and "he is just so clever and such a phenomenal strategist that we no nothing over reactors just cannot comprehend his greatness."

[leftstreet]

20. +1

[sabrina 1]

32. Did you read what Nancy Pelosi and Hoyer said today? What SHOULD we do

when their own words are telling us they intend to betray the people who voted for them?

I am sick to death of being told to be quiet as we see time and time again principles being sold out AFTER we work so hard to put them in office.

If you think this is about Obama you could not be more mistaken. This is about SENIORS who will lose part of the pittance they already have a difficult enough time trying to survive on.

Why is it always about people who are doing just fine, they will never have to worry about anything the way the people they intend to exploit will.

I don't know about anyone else, but I look out for those who cannot look out for themselves. I am not at all worried about Obama, or Pelosi or Hoyer all of whom are multi millionaires. And maybe that's the problem. They simply cannot relate to the people anymore.

Again, this is about SENIORS, POOR SENIORS. It is NOT about Obama, he is simply the guy who we hired to stop this and so far, we are told, he is playing games and scaring the shit out of Seniors. There is simply no excuse for this.

[Liberal1975]

140. Agreed.

[heaven05]

148. yeah

yeah, yeah, not about Obama my butt.

[Marr]

42. Huh? This is the SECOND TIME this president has stealthily offered to cut Social Security.

The first time, the Republicans couldn't get their moronic Teabagger wing to take "yes" for an answer, but that's about the only reason it didn't go through. He offered. Now he's done it again. The politicians may or may not get their ducks in a row this time, but make no mistake, it's this president who made the offer.

[cliffordu]

62. It's a fucking tactic.

The Repubs will NEVER accept ANY idea no matter how absurd of egregious if it looks like it came from the muslin black guy.

I certainly wish my peeps were paying closer attention.

[Bonobo]

65. So is taking a punch to the nose to injure an opponent's fist.

Social Security has now been put on the table and it will happen again and again and again because Obama has now turned it into a perfectly viable chip.

Republicans: "Your own President Obama made the same proposal [fill in number] years ago..."

[cliffordu]

67. We will see....I hope you will be big enough to apologize.

And, FWIW...Social Security was NEVER really on the table.

[Bonobo]

71. Ostensibly it WAS on the table.

And we will never know for sure whether this was a trial balloon that was given up on BECAUSE some of us expressed outrage while others took the "Don't worry, he's got this" approach.

[cliffordu]

73. Fuck. HE DID have this:

They just gave up and went the fuck home with NOTHING in their hands, couldn't get the fucking votes in a Republican controlled House to PASS PLAN B.

What else would you call that??

He told Boner he was down with 400,000 tax rates, SS cost of living manipulation and whatever else the 'negotiations' have included.

BONER COULDN'T GET HIS OWN CAUCUS TO APPROVE THAT, so he CAME UP WITH PLAN 'B'

That would be the tax increase at a MILLION dollars and ponies and the cuts to food stamps and school lunches and shit, and he STILL didn't have the votes from his own party to pass THAT piece of shit.

OBAMA KNOWS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HE OFFERS, IF THERE IS A SINGLE DOLLAR IN TAXES ATTACHED TO IT THEY WILL NEVER PASS IT.

Everything he's offered from last year until we go over the cliff is bullshit and garlic, just for Boner's benefit.

And the story in the press is growing that the prez is the adult in the room and the R's are a remedial behavior class of 8th grade boys.

Just like it should be.

[Bonobo]

75. So the "story" is that the "adult" offered the very reasonable option of chained CPI.

That will be the long term takeaway.

Like enjoying a quickie and having a baby to take care of for the trouble.

Getting rid of Boehner, shaming the Republicans was the quickie.

Having chained CPI as a potential bargaining chip is the baby we will have to take care of for the foreseeable future.

Stupid ass move.

[cliffordu]

78. Again....Just because he "offered" it means exactly what now??

Chained CPI is out of the picture now.

He makes these offers as one time deals- knowing they will never be accepted...

Remember the Debt limit negotiations last year?

What did he give up? Were "entitlements" on the table? Did they get cut?

Bonobo - you and I have locked horns horribly, and then agreed on many thing this last few years.....

I know you to be one of the more intelligent people here:

Obama KNOWS what they'll accept and what they will not.

I believe there are people in the Republican Caucus working to get rid of the baggers to save the Republican party...and I believe they are feeding the Dems intel on how deep the teabag part of the party's intransigence really is.

The moderate part of the party wants them gone asap.

Don't believe the panic peeps. Don't believe Upchuck Todd. Don't believe Andrea Greenspan, or Joe 'the internist' Scarburrow.


Keep watching. What Obama did with DADT was breathtaking. His "evolution" on gay marriage has been pretty stellar.

What has he really given those scumbags? I mean REALLY?

Lip service?

So fucking what?

[Bonobo]

99. This OP does a terrific job of saying exactly what I think.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022045704

[olegramps]

135. Just how in the hell are they going to make them gone.

They don't dare oppose the most radical right wing idiots in fear of being challenged by more radical idiots. . The only why to make them gone is for people to replace them with Democrats.

[lame54]

167. He gave them 2 more years of Bush tax cuts...

that was the deal

[appacom]

170. I want to kiss you, my new hero!

[whathehell]

166. +10 n/t

[Dustlawyer]

177. Stupid ass move my ass! We all know Obama isn't stupid. The question should be,

what is Obama's end game? He is doing a "special interest" thing, pay back for something, or he is, at best, a Blue Dog Democrat, at worst a Lieberman type Republican. Given his administration is packed with Wall street guys, including Eric "the Useless" Holder, with the lack of any indictments for the widespread corruption and fraud that caused the bubble and crash, I believe our Democratic President has an agenda that is not in line with any of us here on key issues.

[Summer Hathaway]

77. Whoa, dude!

That was awesome!

[cliffordu]

80. Aw, shucks, m'am,

I'm here to serve.....

[AnotherMcIntosh]

95. Actually, they didn't go "home with NOTHING in their hands." They went home with an offer to cut SS.

They went home with an offer from a Democratic President to cut Social Security.

[heaven05]

150. oh

keep sharpening those knives and spreading the lie that political gamesmanship is capitulation by our President to the rethugs. You got four more years to keep trying to make him into the ogre you want him to be to justify your quisling disloyalty.

[Marr]

114. Wow! Now he never even made the offer!

First he 'would never', and anyone saying otherwise was a paranoid leftist. Then it was the responsible, pragmatic thing to do and anyone who disagreed was an unrealistic purist. And now it never happened to begin with.

That's a neat trick.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

122. Neat trick. And they are doing it with just three cards.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

190. Not to mention that he gives validity ...

... to SS contributing to the deficit.

[woo me with science]

202. Amen.

As though that's a SMALL thing.

[datasuspect]

107. why can't sticking up for the democratic party base be a tactic?

oh yeah, that's right: they don't stroke big fat fucking campaign checks.

duh.

[Marr]

110. Validating your opponent's position on not only austerity, but SS + the deficit is a "tactic"?

Your devotion approaches the religious. You have to twist yourself into a logic pretzel to view this as some kind of progressive strategy, and ignore a whole lot of inconvenient facts.

Sometimes things are what they appear to be.

[cliffordu]

127. I ignore nothing.

This is politics 101. I am shocked that anyone hanging around a political message board doesn't get it.
Particularly since he's done it THREE times now.

Funny how SS is never part of the final agreement.

[Marr]

130. This is not "Politics 101", and that absurd claim does not make you look savvy.

You do not introduce an item into negotiations unless you're willing to negotiate with that item. This is Tautology 101.

Just because the GOP leadership hasn't managed to convince their caucus to take "yes" for an answer-- yet-- does not change the fact that Obama said, "yes".

[heaven05]

151. oh

you're so smart and I'm so impressed. Not!!!!!!!!!

[lame54]

168. which part of that is sarcasm?

[Marr]

183. Good argument. /nt

[heaven05]

193. not

Last edited Sat Dec 22, 2012, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)

arguing. Just stating an opinion. Don't care if it means anything to you or not. It really is my opinion about ALL you Obama bashers. Never seen more hypocrisy in my life till I started reading comments about my President posted here. When my President does something really horrible to the working class, like start two wars, one based on a lie that has killed over 200,00 soldiers and civilians at the cost of Trillions of tax payer dollars???, pass an act that stripped americans of a lot of their personal freedoms in the name of freedom and security, commit mass rendition and torture in my name and be suspected of knowing before hand that he knew what the act would be to kick off all of these HUMAN RIGHTS violations that have been done in the name of the american people, then you have a point.

[Marr]

200. So your argument is that he's better than GW Bush?

That's enough to make you cheer and clap your hands, huh? Well, you certainly have low expectations but if it makes you happy, clap away.

[heaven05]

203. yes

it's enough to make me clap and cheer into eternity, if I must and all of you Obama bashers/Quislings are still political hypocrites and cowards for not being patient. Is it just because he's Obama that, according to you Quislings, Obama has to climb two mountains to please compared to the one mountain of any other elected official? I really just end up shaking my head in disgust at the sickness prevailing here. All of you are pretty hard to understand. That's all you can do is whine about what he hasn't/has done with CPI(chained) and forget all about political gamesmanship. Just take your whining somewhere else. I'm finished being offended by you.

[Cosmocat]

89. Right

I like this President a lot, but one of the things I like about him is that he is not a devious person.

Nothing about Barack Obama leads me to believe he would be put an offer on the table that he was not going to sign if it was accepted.

And, Republicans have been raging jackasses for two decades now.

Anyone who hasn't picked up on that to this point is not going to suddenly see the light after this incident.

[kenny blankenship]

174. Exactly, All the shitspewers who squeal about his "mad negotiating skillz!"

can't explain what the fuck he was doing offering to cut safety net programs before he was even inaugurated the first time, when he was just President-Elect Obama.

This Reagan-Republican in a donkey suit wants to cut America's safety net, PERIOD. He created the fiscal cliff as an austerity program and appointed as co-chairs of his budget commission (aka Simpson-Bowles) two enemies of Social Security and Medicare, who together are funded by billionaire Pete Peterson, whose enmity to these programs is hardly less strident or well known than the Koch brothers. Reasonable people cannot really disagree on this, nor the conclusion they point to. Not at this late date. The facts are the facts, and the President started offering to cut our safety net programs before even taking office - right on the heels of his performance as the savior of the corrupt Wall St. banks. I pray the Republicans stay crazy and never get around to accepting his offers - but eventually our luck is going to run out. Who the fuck knows what will stop it then?

[woo me with science]

178. Reality is reality. Well said.

The Third Way puts a great deal of money and effort into Twilight Zone logic. Thanks for this very satisfying callout of the absurd.

[mzmolly]

49. When reality sets in, they're

very quiet.

[woo me with science]

179. What on earth are you talking about? nt

[mzmolly]

185. I'm talking about doomsday naysayers being silent

when their predictions don't pan out.

[woo me with science]

186. And who might these people be? nt

[cliffordu]

61. Yep - the overwhelming angst of about 100 of these posts mean they are losing the narrative.

[heaven05]

143. yep

they keep sharpening their knives and waiting for him to appear. Pitiful.

[Vincardog]

152. what "reality"? The one where President Obama offered a chained CPI to SS? Still on the table

and was always PBO's plan.
He was elected to shield the Banksters from justice and rebuild the Republican brand IMO. He is batting 100% on both counts.

[Whisp]

164. what stinky poo poo

he was elected to shield the banksters? really now.

I think you took the Slossin cutoff by mistake and ended up here at DU. Get you roap map out and find where you were really headed to.

[Vincardog]

165. Tell me one banker brought up on Criminal charges by this administration. You can't do it.

I stand by my statement.

[KoKo]

196. And, they pay bribes to the Govt. by paying "Fines" which keeps 'em outta jail.

It's disgusting.

I imagine someone will say "Bernie Madoff" but that was due to NY prosecuting him. He was small fry.

[Matt_R]

204. From DU Stock Market Watch 21 December 2012

Partial List of Financial Sector Officials Convicted since 1/20/09
2/2/12 David Higgs and Salmaan Siddiqui, Credit Suisse, plead guilty to conspiracy involving valuation of MBS
3/6/12 Allen Stanford, former Caribbean billionaire and general schmuck, convicted on 13 of 14 counts in $2.2B Ponzi scheme, faces 20+ years in prison
6/4/12 Matthew Kluger, lawyer, sentenced to 12 years in prison, along with co-conspirator stock trader Garrett Bauer (9 years) and co-conspirator Kenneth Robinson (not yet sentenced) for 17 year insider trading scheme.
6/14/12 Allen Stanford sentenced to 110 years without parole.
6/15/12 Rajat Gupta, former Goldman Sachs director, found guilty of insider trading. Could face a decade in prison when sentenced later this year.
6/22/12 Timothy S. Durham, 49, former CEO of Fair Financial Company, convicted of one count conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, 10 counts of wire fraud, and one count of securities fraud.
6/22/12 James F. Cochran, 56, former chairman of the board of Fair, convicted of one count of conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, one count of securities fraud, and six counts of wire fraud.
6/22/12 Rick D. Snow, 48, former CFO of Fair, convicted of one count of conspiracy to commit wire and securities fraud, one count of securities fraud, and three counts of wire fraud.
7/13/12 Russell Wassendorf Sr., CEO of collapsed brokerage firm Peregrine Financial Group Inc. arrested and charged with lying to regulators after admitting to authorities he embezzled "millions of dollars" and forged bank statements for "nearly twenty years."
8/22/12 Doug Whitman, Whitman Capital LLC hedge fund founder, convicted of insider trading following a trial in which he spent more than two days on the stand telling jurors he was innocent
10/26/12 UPDATE: Former Goldman Sachs director Rajat Gupta sentenced to two years in federal prison. He will, of course, appeal. . .
11/20/12 Hedge fund manager Matthew Martoma charged with insider trading at SAC Capital Advisors, and prosecutors are looking at Martoma's boss, Steven Cohen, for possible involvement.

[sabrina 1]

205. Obama is not the issue, he is just a politician who will be gone in four years.

What matters is that any decision made now regarding cutting benefits to Senior will impact them for generations to come.

Frankly I no longer care about politicians, unless they are clearly working for the people the way Bernie Sanders is.

Playing games with the pittance that seniors EARNED with their own money, is simply cruel.

This is what we are told. That Obama is just playing games with Republicans. Well you know what, that is even worse if true, than if he was sincere. Let's HOPE he is not playing such a cruel game with the most vulnerable Americans.

Anyhow, he no longer matters in this 'game'. We are now focused on Senate Dems whose inboxes and phones continue to be flooded with calls warning them that they were elected for the last time IF they support any proposal that touches SS.

SS had zero to do with the deficit, it should not even be part of these discussions.

If they want to play cruel games, let them play them with the Wealthy eg, who won't starve if they lose a % of their income.

But leave Seniors alone. When it comes to the President as opposed to the disabled and the elderly, I am on the side of the elderly and disabled. I thought he was too, but no one who is, would play this kind of cruel game, sorry.

[reformist2]

3. If we can restore the tax cuts on people below $250K, I'm fine with (most of) the rest of it.

Huge cuts to defense? Fine with me.

The end of the payroll tax cut? It has to go sometime.

Still, there are some things I'm worried about. Cuts to Medicare, for example. But all in all, this is not the end of the world. And it's all fixable.

[woo me with science]

8. Huge defense cuts won't happen.

That's one part of this that we know both parties have been working on a plan to avoid for months now. Obama's own Secretary of Defense has opined passionately about the need for social program cuts over defense cuts, and it's clear that neither party will accept major slashing of the Military Industrial Complex.

[leftlibdem420]

27. "the need for social program cuts over defense cuts"

Are these people crazy?

[Toronto]

103. Eureka - someone's beginning to hit the nail on the head

Nothing will ever be passed by either a Republican or Democratic government that costs the Military Industrial Complex or the 1 percenters a dime because most of the reps on either side belong to the same club...

[Little Star]

119. True. But I'd like it, if it was offered by the President as part of the great game of chess.....

instead of SS.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

26. If there is truly one thing that is "off the table," it is defense expenditures.

[spanone]

4. well, i agree with the BULLSHIT part.

[msanthrope]

5. Reality kicked in, didn't it??? nt

[sabrina 1]

36. Nothing we did not expect but were told we were wrong. Thanks to the

weak leadership of the party, all the excuses we get are simply not working. They told us in no uncertain terms they intend to betray the people who elected them. I believe them.

[forestpath]

6. K&R

[cui bono]

7. Keeping it real. Thank you.

[Bonobo]

9. "Every single time Democrats reinforce this narrative, it is damaging to the country. "

That is the main point I want to reinforce.

We may have "won" in a tiny, small sense, but in terms of the narrative and the long-term issue of the meaning and importance of SS, we were thrown under the bus by our own president and party.

[lobezen]

17. As long as the Right owns the narrative the

Dems are losers!

[cliffordu]

74. Except that the Republicans don't own the narrative.

they just went home with their tail between their legs.

I really wish people would pay attention.

Oh, and Welcome to DU!!!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

96. Actually, they didn't go "home with their tail between their legs". They went with an offer to cut

Social Security by a Democratic President.

[coalition_unwilling]

120. An offer the Rape-publi-scum did not accept because it was coupled

with a tax increase on their base.

Boner couldn't even corral his own caucus. I'd say that's utter humiliation of him and his party.

[heaven05]

153. that

is a lie sir!

[Dragonfli]

173. No, the "Chained CPI" is indeed a cut, even if you pretend it isn't

They did indeed walk away with that offer, calling a fellow poster a liar is against the rules here, you really should apologize for that.

[heaven05]

191. I

have been called so many names on this site so many times, and told I was wrong and a liar. No one apologized to me. I do not see or read truth in the statement of poster. Yeah your rules are applied ONLY to certain people at certain times. My President DID NOT do what this poster said, therefore IT IS NOT THE TRUTH! This site is very arbitrary in it's rule enforcement. Until I see across the board civility enforced I will not apologize. Period.

[jtuck004]

141. Every time a Democrat says "austerity" a Republican gets his wings. n/t

[MotherPetrie]

10. K&R

[leftstreet]

12. DURec

[grantcart]

13. just beacause you don't get the strategy

Doesn't mean that the man who is responsible for the largest expansion of federal involvement in health care and oversight in the financial industry doesn't have one.

[rhett o rick]

19. So do you think he will cut defense spending? nm

[TheKentuckian]

22. Oh, I get it. I don't subscribe to it and don't call it winning.

[grantcart]

100. Saying that you get it isn't the same thing as actually getting it.

So what is your opinion about the 5% additional offset to affected parties?

[TheKentuckian]

118. What are you talking about? The two year shield or the bump at a certain age?

What does this have to do with the broad game being played to ramrod through globalization, constricting government spending, strengthening the hand of the corporations and shifting more, or the belief that that basically we are on the right path but need to be careful with how far the least are pushed, least they rebel.

There is always a "softener", yay. An exemption for the especially screwed. That doesn't change the course, it reduces the martyrs so they don't become an obstacle that threatens relative tranquility during executing the shock doctrine.

I have no doubts Obama will get his way, I don't see much to indicate I hold with those goals. I don't have to invent a mythology to filter observation.

[sabrina 1]

37. What's the strategy? Pelosi says he's going to accept the Chained CPI. Is she

lying? Hoyer like Obama's sell out on SS also and intends, both he and Pelosi say, to support him.

So just what is this great strategy that millions of Americans seem not to be able find under all the selling out?

And why is SS on any 'table' that has to do with the deficit in the first place?

We saw this same strategy when they sold out on the PO. So you're not making me feel too good about it by reminding us of that.

[grantcart]

86. Here's the technical discussion by the leading liberal expert

The reason that the CPI is 'on the table' is that it is proven that the new formula is in fact more accurate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755883/#50254663

Beyond that the actual cost is about $ 3 per senior citizen in the coming year.

He discusses why in the larger context it is a good deal.

Goldstein is considered THE liberal icon on Social Security.

These are the facts. DU couldn't care less about the actual facts.

Obama's proposal has a 5 % income offset that no one at DU has discussed at all.

Now everyone can return to the hysteria.

[1StrongBlackMan]

129. I keep asking; but no one ...

seems to want to answer:

Why does everyone critical of the rumored deal say, "President Obama has offerred up the chained CPI" without including, "but or and, with protections for the elderly and exemptions"?

That IS the language of the rumored deal.

[heaven05]

155. exactly

I'm beginning to think it's just because Obama is Obama??? All this quisling disloyalty and brutus knife sharpening has got me wondering what or who some of these people on this site are?

[1StrongBlackMan]

160. I'm certain that there is that element ...

but I'm also thinking that the real gripe with the rumored deal has nothing to do with the elderly or the disabled or the poor; but rather, it's about the critics wanting to protect THEIR share of SS. Like for most of us $30 after 10 years, is going to make a difference.

So the tactic is to leave that last part off, so as to hid your real concern.

[heaven05]

169. makes

sense.

[grantcart]

101. Here's a 10 minute explanation of the strategy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755883/#50254663

It answers all of the questions you raise.



They didn't 'sell out' on the Public Option.

Before the affordable health care act the federal government had no role.

The whole point of the public option is to get the Medical Loss Ratio down from 36% to what Single Payer Countries get, around 8-10%.

The AFCA caps the MLR at 20% (or slightly higher in some cases) and puts the federal government in charge.

We got half what we wanted but even more importantly we got the federal government in the game. Canadians didn't get single payer in a single piece of legislation, they got it incrementally over 20 years. Our first step was a much bigger step that Canada's first 5 steps.

[Cosmocat]

92. He isn't perfect

I agree TOTALLY with your on these two points - he got what he could with health care reform and also with the finance regulation.

I have argued this strongly here.

People might be a bit histrionic with it, but they are correct on the point relative to this issue.

His STARTING point should have been where he ended on this.

These situations are different.

He had to take what congress gave him on HCR and Financial Regulation.

He had both sequestration and the end of the Bush Tax cuts as VERY strong leverage, and he put SS on the table.

That is a LOT difference than ACA and finance reform.

And, it is just utter bullshit to say it was some kind of "tactic."

There is nothing about this man that indicates he would put an offer on the table he would not sign.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

97. Actually, he got HEALTH INSURANCE reform, not health care reform.

[Cosmocat]

125. I know, I know

Functionally.

There was some health care reform aspects, but yes, it is mandated insurance ...

[BlueStreak]

18. Here is the only way this is a victory

We wake up on January 1 and discover that Zenmaster, multi-dimensional chessmaster Obama actually conducted this as a psychological warfare exercise to:

- Break the stranglehold that Norquist has on the GOP; and

- Destroy the "Hastert rule" that effectively allows the teabaggers to push Boehner around.

And now that we are over "the cliff," the teabaggers are neutralized, and Norquist is a non-factor, Obama resets the table to drive the kind of hard bargain that we expected from the beginning.

Yeah, if he does that, I have a lot of crow to eat. I don't think I have much to worry about though.

[TheKentuckian]

24. Exactly

The problem with believing that is we could have done that years ago at far greater strength.

[Poll_Blind]

21. First, +1. Second, you should take a look at something- from NYT:

Boehner Cancels Tax Vote in Face of G.O.P. Revolt

With a series of votes on Thursday, the speaker, who faces election for his post in the new Congress next month, had hoped to assemble a Republican path away from the cliff. With a show of Republican unity, he also sought to strengthen his own hand in negotiations with Mr. Obama. The House did narrowly pass legislation to cancel automatic, across-the-board military cuts set to begin next month, and shift them to domestic programs.

But the main component of “Plan B,” a bill to extend expiring Bush-era tax cuts for everyone with incomes under $1 million, could not win enough Republican support to overcome united Democratic opposition. Democrats questioned Mr. Boehner’s ability to deliver any agreement.

This already may be going down. I don't have the HR #, though. I'm talking the "deal", the Chained CPI. I can't be sure. Don't know if I'll have time to track this down so I wanted to get word out there to keep an eye open.

PB

[PoliticAverse]

163. The Part B that passed is HR6684 and Reid said it won't be brought to a vote in the Senate.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2012/h644?utm_campaign=govtrack_feed&utm_source=govtrack/feed&utm_medium=rss

[cliffordu]

23. Sound and fury signifying nothing

A completely fact free diatribe.

Bogus posit to play up the fears of the television believers here.

Fail.

[Bonobo]

30. Shakespeare is rolling over in his grave. nt

[cliffordu]

31. I know. My bad

[sabrina 1]

40. How about being specific. What, eg, do you think of Pelosi and Hoyer

stating this week that they intend to back the President on his 'Chained CPI' bargain?

Nancy says that the Chained CPI is NOT a benefit cut. So, why are they doing this? I admit, the only strategy I see there is they are about to betray those who elected them.

Enlighten me please. I don't see any lack of clarity in what Hoyer and Pelosi have stated.

[cliffordu]

45. IT DOENS'T MATTER WHAT THE DEMS SAY OR OFFER:

THE TEABAGGERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT ANYTHING THE PREZ ENDORSES.

IT IS ALL POLITICS 101.

AND IN CASE YOU WEREN'T LISTENING, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST GAVE THE FUCK UP.

NO MORE PLAN B - WE'RE GOING OVER THE CURB AND THEN OBAMA WILL GET BACK TO SPANKING THE IDIOTS.

I really wish peeps here would pay some fucking attention. The television will hype garbage to you to sell ad time.

[sabrina 1]

64. Nancy Pelosi is a liar then? And so is Steny Hoyer? Is that what you are saying?

Then she needs to go, don't you think?

Has the President made any statement about removing the Chained CPI from his proposal yet?

The Republicans backed out. So the President will be changing his proposal by removing the Chained CPI from it.

This is your prediction?

I intend to bookmark these comments. I remember hearing the same thing about the PO.

And we all know what happened to that. Apparently there was no several dimensional chess after all.

So if you don't mind I will pay attention to what they say and do while you try to read their minds and ignore the words coming from their mouths.

Been there, saw what happened, fool me once etc.

And I'm happy to see that very, very few are going to be fooled again and will not let up on the pressure until we hear a retraction from Pelosi and a clear statement from the President.

[cliffordu]

70. This has all been theater to allow the fucking R's to hang themselves.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK POLITICS IS???

And, one more thing:

When were you fooled once? (etc)

DADT?? Health care?? Lilly Ledbetter??

[sabrina 1]

76. Please do not remind us of the HC debacle. If you think progressives were not

right about that, then we are living on different planets. We LOST in the HC debate and we never needed to.

DADT. Well, let's see. That SHOULD have been passed in Jan of 2009. It was one of the easiest bills to get support on the first day of the new Congress when Dems controlled everything and even some Repubs were for it.

So, what happened? At every turn the Obama administration blocked efforts to end that discriminatory law. Going so far as to try challenge a court ruling stating, correctly, that it was unconstitutional.

And why was this allowed to happen? Well, yes we do know how politics is played. Coming up to the election we were told that there would be no discussion of DADT during the election season and oddly, no discussion of ending the Bush Tax Cuts.

If you think people did not know what was going on, you could not be more wrong.

They held up DADT in order to use it to pretend to the base that they could not get it passed (Lame Duck Congress again) unless they allowed the Bush Tax Cuts to be extended.

What a cynical way to deal with something so important.

What SHOULD have happened is that DADT should have passed in Jan 2009 and the Bush Tax Cuts should have been allowed to expire.

Which means that some Dems WANTED to extend the Bush Tax Cuts and used DADT to pretend they had or lose on that legislation.

Yes, we know how politics work. They are not working for US.

Now we have CTS floating around that Dems are playing games with SS. I'll say this, even if that was the case, it is a vile thing to do.

Maybe to THEM, the wealthy politicians we keep foolishly reelecting playing games with SS is just fine. Well, it is not and I don't know a single person who is buying this fantasy.

[cliffordu]

79. Well.......

Progressives are not in the majority of this universe or world or even the Party and particularly in the Congress......so you really gotta stop sniveling about how you LOST the health care debate.

And complaining about the DADT repeal date is a little disingenuous seeing as how Obama MADE the military do their little study, and admit that everyone in the military wouldn't turn gay is DADT would be overturned.

Complaining about the time line is....well....nevermind.

And that statement about blocking the end to discriminatory law is just complete bullshit.

Ending of the Bush tax cuts were already in place - Obama made sure that they were locked in with the fiscal cliff negotiations some time back....Remember when he chumped most of the Republicans into signing on to this because they NEVER thought these draconian cuts to the MIC could EVER come to pass??? Again. The end of the bush tax cuts are about two weeks away. What discussion did you want??

Your lectures about WHEN DADT should have been dismantled are useless at this point.

SS is not on the table. Keep watching. It was (is) a canard meant to set up the Republicans:

Obama offered to let them cut an "entitlement" and because there was a tax involved in it, the baggers in the party cut Boner off at the knees.

They look like the utter fucking fools they are. Expect more "offers" from the Obama administration. Expect that the fucking Baggers to fall for it every god damned time.

Expect the House in 2014.

Don't fuck with Obama. He will send your party home with their platform broken, strung together and draped around their necks like sad, failed jewelry.

He just did.

[sabrina 1]

81. 'You'? Does this mean you are not a Progressive?

Progressives are not in the majority of this universe or world or even the Party and particularly in the Congress......so you really gotta stop sniveling about how you LOST the health care debate.

That would explain everything.

Progressive policies are overwhelmingly supported by a majority of Americans and of course are already in place in most other civilized countries.

I lost nothing in the HC debate, because I personally am fine. But millions of others did lose. Who did not lose? The previously failing Big Health Care Corps who profited from the bill as they got their hands on public funds taking out of them nearly 20% in profits as they pass through their hands.

Obama offered SS cuts three times over the past year or so. How about offering Congressional Health Care costs and cutting the Military Budget in half? If they want to play games, and that is even worse imo, than if they were being honest, let them play with funds that are actually related to the deficit.

The sniveling over the fact that the people are finally awake to the deceptions isn't going to stop the huge Coalitions of Progressives and Independents and Unions who no longer trust their Reps with their futures. I am very encouraged to see this finally happening.

[woo me with science]

109. There's the Third Way again: "Progressives are not in the majority."

Always the same Third Way group. They are deliberate scenery, and their purpose is to try to get you to believe that your values and principles are a relic, and in the minority now.

They have to do that, because the numbers by which we outnumber them are vast. Polls show that up to 86 percent of AMERICANS, across party lines, want to defend Medicare and Social Security benefits. Polls also showed strong public support for a public option at the time of the health insurance giveaway.

Remember Chomsky telling us that they can't overpower us with force, so they will try to do it by shaping our perceptions and expectations.

The point we all need to grasp here is that we really have one party now, not two. Our electoral system has been purchased, and we are now being managed. Everybody has got to stop pretending to be shocked and surprised when one of the two corporate-selected candidates for President gets into office and immediately continues the process of selling us out...our lives and our children's lives...for corporate interests. We have been purchased. We have a problem.

We waste energy responding to Third Way propaganda that feeds us a constantly changing, ludicrous kaleidescope of justifications for what is happening:

The President seeks the same goals you do, but the Republicans are just too powerful right now.

or

Your views are out of step with the party. The country is more conservative now. You are fringe.

or

What you see as a betrayal is just a compromise *this time.* Adults have to compromise. Stop being a purist.

or

It's all part of a chess game on your behalf that you couldn't possibly understand...

Meanwhile, the corporate government picks up where it left off and continues its work of refashioning this nation and all of us into profit spigots for the ones who own us now, and we are moved steadily into serfdom and corporate fascism and endless war.

It is time to wake up and stop pretending, and instead figure out what we are going to do about it.

One acknowledgement we need to make is depressing as hell: The truth is that we cannot depend on the government we have to save us, or protect us, or represent us anymore. They are working for the other side. We have to save ourselves, because voting alone is not enough anymore.

The other acknowledgement we need to make is positive beyond measure. The propaganda we are fed about being in the minority is absolute bullshit. We saw it during the election, in the way the corporate candidates pivoted leftward in their rhetoric to gain our votes, and we see it every day in polls and in conversations with neighbors and friends. Americans don't hunger for a corporate state; we still hunger for the same values and principles and just society that we always have.

We are vastly greater in numbers than the corporate interests who have hijacked our country. They have power now only because we have allowed them to have it. We can take it back.

[cliffordu]

171. If "progressives" are such a great big spanking

glistening majority,

Why the fuck don't you run anything?

[woo me with science]

175. Ah, the throwaway line. The Third Way chutzpah

that deliberately, implicitly attempts to deny or brush past the billions and billions in corporate money flowing through Washington, into both parties, and also into corporate media and our electoral system. The sheer audacity of your challenge is laughable, as though we were all unaware of the systematic changes that have been made in this country over the past 30 years, not only to entrench corporate influence but to increase it and lock out potential challengers through redistricting, campaign finance restructuring, corporate control of balloting and access to debates, massive lobbying and financial cronyism and a revolving door from the halls of Congress to the corporate lairs of CEO's.

It's always a facile, utterly disingenuous throwaway challenge: "Just run someone progressive," when the truth is that the system itself has been captured and in most cases makes running for national office without deep, corporate pockets, or against a corporate-selected candidate with those deep pockets and the media machine behind him, virtually impossible...and staying uncorrupted once inside that corporate-ruled world even more difficult.

We have a deep, *systemic* problem of corporate money and power in Washington, driving corporate-enriching policy in both parties at the expense of and against the wishes of the people. The Third Way, of course, denies that blatant systemic problem, because they are an instrument *created* by moneyed Washington to perpetuate it. Isn't that delicious?

It is easy to throw out facile, snide comments that deny a blatant reality. You cannot sustain your Third Way fantasy of our electoral system and also explain why most of Congress are millionaires with extensive corporate ties, and why legislation coming out of Washington now routinely bears no resemblance to what the people have repeatedly said we want, but great resemblance to the interests of the corporate backers.

Let me repeat that, so you won't ignore it *again,* or so that you will embarrass yourself even further if you do: The people have expressed our views over and over again. The polls consistently and undeniably show a desire for policies significantly to the left of what is being imposed on us, over and over again. Americans by massive margins and across party lines want SS and Medicare benefits protected, and do not favor austerity. Americans by large margins and across party lines would rather curtail military spending and tax the rich than cut these programs. Yet still our politicians meet in smoke-filled rooms and emerge with proposals for exactly the opposite. It would be hilarious - the stuff of Monty Python - if it didn't translate into millions of men, women, and children impoverished and in despair. And it keeps happening, over and over again.

Why are approval ratings for Congress in the toilet? Why are they in single digits? Because Congress no longer represents us. Because policy now is driven by corporate influence, rather than the wishes of voters, and people are sick and tired of being lied to and stolen from by politicians toadying for Wall Street.

[cliffordu]

184. I'm on the way to a meeting with local activists for a talk and a beer right now

but as soon as I wake up tomorrow, I'll address your.....post.....

AND BY THE FUCKING WAY:

Just because you say you're a 'progressive' means nothing on the interwebs.

I'm not a progressive. I haven't seen a definition of a progressive that anyone I know adheres to.

But I know people who get people elected.

I'm a democrat. I have extreme views on many things. I have prosaic, milktoast views on others.

I have contempt, too......

Mostly concerning strident experts, wannabe pack leaders. Chronic complainers.

[woo me with science]

189. And people who are upset with the corporate takeover of our party?

And with the fact that Democrats have now gone so far right as to put themselves in the business of imposing austerity, against the will of the people, in an economy that has already impoverished its middle class and created the second highest level of child poverty in the developed nations?

Do you have contempt for them, too?

cliffordu, I honestly have little use or care for your contempt, beyond being very sad that a discussion board that used to be pretty good about demanding adherence to liberal values and policy positions now welcomes and protects corporate propaganda up to and including advocating using our fundamental safety nets as bargaining chips.

I do think this discussion has already illustrated what it needs to illustrate.

I will say this: Getting people elected is meaningless if those people do not work on behalf of those who elected them. I am heartened that this OP is now at the top of the Greatest Page; it gives me hope to see so many Democrats being clear-eyed about what is happening to our party, because then we might actually have some chance of repairing it. I think, rather than attacking people who express these sentiments, you might want to think about what they are trying to express to you.

*Particularly* if you know people who get people elected.

[Egalitarian Thug]

194. When governing is reduced to a team sport and combined with a complete withdrawal

into a fantasy world, this is what you get.

[woo me with science]

195. Perfectly said: "a team sport."

I'll take this opportunity to repost my little screed on exactly that. It fits here, down to the waving of party loyalty and namecalling:

How to co-opt a party into Third Way, corporate loyalty
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1489598

[Bobbie Jo]

112. It never ceases to amaze me

how people who spend an inordinate amount of time on a POLITICAL board can be so completely clueless when it comes to political maneuvering.

Unbelievable.

[enlightenment]

158. "The television will hype garbage to you to sell ad time. "

What? Like that MSNBC link you keep posting? Do you have a special decoder ring that tells you which bit of television punditry is garbage and which isn't? Sounds pretty handy - where did you get it?

You should take a walk or something - when you're reduced to yelling and cursing and suggesting that DUer's just aren't as smart as you and your favorite pundit, you've gone over the edge.

[cliffordu]

172. I have NEVER posted an MSNBC link. Fail.

Try again, please.

[coalition_unwilling]

121. I call it support for Obama's bluff. The Rape-publi-scum suck at poker (Obama's

card game of choice). Obama made an offer he knew they would refuse (b/c it included tax increases on their base). In so doing, Obama acomplished two goals: he made himself look reasonable and willing to compromise and he drove a fatal wedge through the heart of the Rape-publi-scum: Norquist said he would back the proposal but Club for Growth said it would primary any R who voted for it.

Say what you will, Rape-publi-scum folded and did not call Obama's bluff. In so doing, they look like a bunch of putzes and chumps.

[sabrina 1]

124. I don't agree. He wanted tax increases, he knew that to get that he would

have to give them something they really wanted. He told us there would 'be bitter pills to swallow for both sides'. The Progressive Caucus believes he was willing to give them the Chained CPI, a policy supported by the Third Way on their website btw. They thought it was vague enough to fool most people into not realizing it was actually a cut. Nancy Pelosi and Hoyer believed him.

I will believe this 'poker' game nonsense when he takes it off the table now that Repubs have turned it down. That would be the way to finish them off. To say 'look I offered you what you wanted, you refused, you won't get that offer again'.

So far I see no sign of that happening.

Talk to us when he makes a clear statement, like Sanders eg, a statement that would have the support of a majority of the people, and I will buy this 'playing poker game'.

Until then, I can only go by that fact that three times he has offered SS cuts to the rabid, greedy Republicans.

If that is playing games, it is a dangerous and cruel game to play using Seniors as a Poker chip. Frankly I'd rather think he meant it.

[coalition_unwilling]

146. I understand your position and the progressive in me firmly agrees. However, the

realpolitiker in me sees this as Obama painting the Rs into an ever-smaller corner, with an eye toward the 2014 mid-terms when the proper framing will bring the House withing Dem's grasp. Polls show that a sizable majority of Americans (53%, IIRC) believe the Rs are now 'too extreme' and I saw polling yesterday to the effect that a majority of Americans now hold Rs responsible for the failure to avert the Fiscal Cliff.

Yesterday, I read that Norquist backed Plan B while the Club for Growth planned to primary any R who voted for it. If that's not a fatal schism, I don't know what is. And the fact that a majority of Americans now view Obama as the 'responsible adult' means that Social Security should be safe now going forward. Instead of calling Obama's bluff, the Rape-publi-scum folded their hand like the cheap punks and putzes we always knew them to be.

[Summer Hathaway]

44. Aren't they always?

Lots of twisted knickers around here tonight.

[cliffordu]

59. Yep.

How ya doin' Summer?

[Summer Hathaway]

68. I'm good, my friend

and hope all is well with you.

[cliffordu]

72. I'm doing well...

[olegramps]

138. A regular mutual admiration society of poke in the barrel enthusiasts.

[cliffordu]

149. Yep, that's right!!

[Egalitarian Thug]

56. Abuse of Shakespeare still doesn't give your 'argument' any substance. n/t

[cliffordu]

57. Mine was no argument.

Mere observation that the balloon floated by some here is losing air.

Big diff.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

108. Bogus to play up the fears of "television believers"

...but it's just fine for the President and his team to frighten seniors with cuts you now claim he was never serious about? I disagree.

[Egalitarian Thug]

117. I know, huh. I mean, some of us don't even watch TV & were totally fooled by those

photoshopped audio clips!

[MjolnirTime]

28. still clueless as always, eh?

[Bonobo]

29. Zounds! Methinks thou should go back to reading thy comic books! nt

[840high]

34. heehee +1

[sabrina 1]

41. How about you, who appear to be so informed, explain that remark.

Eg, are you aware of what Pelosi and Hoyer said this week about the Chained CPI? What do you think of their support for it? Do you agree with them that it is 'not a benefit cut' and could you explain why, if so?

Drive by posts tell us nothing. They are meaningless to a discussion. This is a discussion forum so don't be surprised if someone, like me eg, asks you to discuss the topic of the OP which you certainly have not done so far.

[Bonobo]

48. Methinks he hath left the realm of Midgard and taken Bifrost to the wastes of Niffelheim!

[sabrina 1]

58. Lol, I think you are correct!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Well, "I will never cut Social Security" was a helluva campaing slogan,

Kinda like "Peace with Honor".

[Bonobo]

35. That was just the opening move in the long gambit that won us this big victory! nt

[Skittles]

38. I keep hoping against hope?

[Overseas]

39. Thank you! Well said. Bedrock Democratic values as bargaining chips. Austerity for the 99% is not

our plan. That should be left to the GOP alone. It's corporatist.

We need Democrats to admit "supply side" has crashed and burned, and remember that Demand Side economics did so much better.

And fight for it.

Not be drawn into damaging compromises with right wing lunatics intent on ignoring facts on the ground.

[Mojorabbit]

50. Exactly! I cannot believe how far we have fallen as a party. nt

[patrice]

43. Un-rec. ignoring the facts & just saying stuff doesn't make it so, no matter what labels it wears.

[Egalitarian Thug]

54. What facts is he ignoring? You were just explaining to me yesterday that it was essential

to give in to Wall Street and the republicans because getting things done is more important than being right.


Oh look, here it is...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2037412

[patrice]

63. Please quote precisely how you get that out of what I said in that post. Admitting the POSSIBILITY

Admitting the POSSIBILITY of being wrong is not the same thing as being in fact wrong, or right for that matter. Being aware of the possibility of being wrong results in information seeking. Deciding that you are absolutely and exclusively right results in an end to information seeking, which increases the probability that you will MISS something that you NEED to know, because you have decided that you don't need it since you're already "right". If you miss something you NEED to know/understand, you LOSE, no matter how "right" you think you are. Not KNOWING the difference between things doesn't make them the same. Not knowing the similarities between things doesn't make them different. If you don't know that yellow plus blue makes green, saying yellow plus red is green over and over and over doesn't make it true. Recognizing the possibility that 2 X 2 isn't 6 is what makes a person seek the additional information NEEDED to recognize that 2 X 2 = 4. If you can't recognize the possibility of being wrong you just go around very possibly being wrong, especially about complex things like economics and budget negotiations, and never knowing that you are wrong.

If you can't understand this concept, I urge you strongly for the protection of innocent others to stop considering yourself a "Thug".

[Egalitarian Thug]

83. lmao. You can't even admit it when your own words are displayed.

The very idea that an abject capitulation to republican extortion last year was the 'Grand Plan' all along (still assuming that we get even that crumb) is clearly indicative of a total break with reality.

So, just to bring it over here so those not inclined to wade through your nonsense on that other thread, I will re-quote my reply; "You completely miss the point. Losing is always a possibility, but every time our way has been tried, it has succeeded wildly. It is what Americans across the spectrum want and consistently vote for, and that is why it is invariably removed from available options before any discussion is allowed."

And from my reply before that; "Knowing what is right is important. Standing up and fighting for it, win or lose, is what matters."

The OP is absolutely correct;

"Going over the cliff is the best we can hope for now, but it is still a decided loss. Even if we go over the cliff, we are stuck with painful, certainly regressive, triggered budget slashing that Obama is fully responsible for, because he chose to validate the Shock Doctrine scam debt ceiling "crisis" last year. We should not be imposing austerity at all during this economy."

What used to be understood as REPUBLICAN lies and talking points about the economy and the deficit were transformed into a devastating NATIONAL, BIPARTISAN narrative about the need for austerity that we now have to fight against every single day.

[humbled_opinion]

46. Thank You so much for this OP

I was almost losing faith in people on this forum, some championing painful austerity for those of us that work hard and will be hurt most by allowing our taxes etc to go up. I totally agree that our leaders need to stand up for us, face the political music and do what is right and not be swayed into these insane debates with repukes that only desire to see their rich campaign contributors given more opportunities to get richer.

[Egalitarian Thug]

47. "Third Way propaganda of steadily diminishing expectations"

And hardly a day goes by that I'm not surprised that so many are so staggeringly stupid that they are happy to take a big ol' bite of that shit sandwich and truly believe that that's the very best that could be done, "under the circumstance".

"It's too bad that Granny died of that abscessed tooth and that my 10 year old can't spell cat, but now it's all going to be alright. I'm sure that this is going to fix it all up and good times are just around the corner"

[on point]

51. President had better recognize it wasn't just a repuke candidate rejected, it was their IDEAS too

The whole chicago school, supply side, trickle down, austerity for everyone theft for the wealthy, no regulation predator class caveat emptor, fear mongering bully class nonsense is over. We are not taking it anymore.

It was thrown out in the election.

If the president continues to embrace it he will lose the electorate and his presidency

[99th_Monkey]

52. Obama is to the Right of Ronald Reagan's ghost on Social Security for Pete's sake

-->SOCIAL SECURITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEFICIT<-- RR
http://lawoftime.org/rainbow-bridge/rainbow-bridge-meditation.html

Certainly nothing to be proud of in my book.

[JDPriestly]

53. +1000

Austerity will take us back to Fall 2008. Whether the cuts are to Social Security and other federal retirees or to the unemployed and food stamp recipients, we will go into another recession, another dip.

The Republicans are leading the way, but Obama and Pelosi and perhaps Reid are following Boehner like dogs follow the leader of the pack. It is really ugly and will get uglier.

Of course, Obama always falls for this. He just cannot accept and deal with the fact that the Republicans want him to fail and are willing to see the whole country go down with Obama.

[railsback]

55. Your compass is bent

People say all kinds of shit when bargaining, but it doesn't mean shit until its signed, sealed and delivered. Did anyone actually think this GOP would take ANY deal from Obama? Well, then they got shit for brains. Cantor did a Brutus up ol' Boehner's wazzoo and they went home for the holidays. A revolt. Boehner is gone. All this could have been done in private, but the White House made their offers very pubic - think about it. 2014 is a BIG election. The House is within grasp.

[Bonobo]

60. An analysis of that brilliant post.

"Shit."

[patrice]

66. Honestly, I'm having trouble figuring out if this is for real, or are we being fucked with. It's so

far out, it's hard to explain.

[Bonobo]

69. As for me...

I am feeling that the short term goal of "getting Boehner" cannot possibly be worth setting the precedent of a Democratic president putting SS on the table as a negotiating chip.

It will bite us on the ass in the future. This was a bad game, sent a dangerous message that will be exploited and implicitly communicates that SS IS on the table as long as its cuts are linked to something we want.

[kentuck]

145. Unfortunately...

true.

[heaven05]

156. and

my analysis of your analysis, GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xchrom]

82. du rec. nt

[HiPointDem]

84. kr

[kentuck]

85. Don't count your money while you're sitting at the table....

There'll be time enough for counting when the dealing's done...

[jsr]

87. Are we supposed to be thankful that a Democratic president offered to cut Social Security?

[ProSense]

91. "BULLSHIT that anything happening now is a victory or that we should be celebrating"

Wow, pissing in Wheaties is fun isn't it?

I mean, if someone proposes something and progressives shoot it down, we lose?

Fuck that, and the constant negativity.

Someone should have shot down COLA when President Carter enacted it.

When FDR excluded certain groups from his New Deal proposal and acquiesced to the outrage of the day, it was a victory.

Stop with the constant stuck in the moment outrage.

Get over it.

It's a victory, and I'll celebrate that Social Security is still in tact.

[bbgrunt]

94. best post I've seen in a long time. k and r!

[bananas]

98. k&r nt

[Rocky888]

104. +1

[datasuspect]

105. Big Money is running this show and we're all gonna get fucked until all the fucking is done

believe that shit.

[dawg]

111. Finally something I can believe in.

[woo me with science]

123. It certainly looks that way, doesn't it.

[historylovr]

161. Truer words were never spoken. nt

[bigtree]

113. I'll dare. Boehner's failure to rally his own party to vote for his alternative is a FAILURE for him

. . .and a WIN for the President and party.

Your problem is with your own false and denigrating narrative you repeat over and over about our Democrats. You'll never realize a 'win' from that phony and contrived perspective.

So much of what you've been speculating about this party hasn't come to pass in any substantive or settled manner. You seem to be hoping that if you just stick to your demonstratively false narrative that events will vindicate you. I still don't see a deal where any of your predictions have come true. That may well happen, but it just hasn't.

In fact, our social safety net has actually been enhanced and expanded under this presidency. I've NEVER heard you acknowledge that. You act like there's something redeeming and relevant in your dire predictions, but when they fizzle, all you're left with is your strident and unsupportable attacks on our President and party. It's all chaos and carnage in woo's imaginary world. Everything else is just background noise while you're waiting for that ultimate WH betrayal you've been pining to rub in folks' faces here.

The fact that we've seen none of that come to pass is a WIN, pure and simple. Any time we can avoid feeding into, and confirming your particular brand of political cynicism, I'd call that a definite WIN.

[JoePhilly]

115. Meanwhile, John Boehner lays weeping in a pool of his own sick.

With Obama's foot print on his ass.

All of the predictions that Obama was absolutely, positively, about to CAVE, and kill SS and Medicare appear to have been wrong.

Again.

[Zorra]

116. Here's the Third Way game: "Heads I win. Tails, you lose....call it!"

The Third Way is a think tank that banksters use to insidiously neutralize the Democatic party from within.

Insidious:

1 ~ Proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects: "the insidious effects of stress".

2 ~ Treacherous; crafty: "an insidious alliance".

They know exactly what they are doing, and we know what they are doing as well.

Obviously, it's up to us to stop them. Most voters are uninformed, and have never even heard of the Third Way.

We need to eliminate the notion that RW ideas and austerity measures have a place at our table.

Thank you for another important post, woomewithscience.

[woo me with science]

131. +10000 Keep exposing the propaganda and the real game here.

People will put up with a lot as long as they are snowed into believing that the options put in front of them are the only ones available.

They tend to get very angry when they realize they are being played.

[adirondacker]

154. Well Stated! n/t

[shanti]

128. k&r

[merrily]

132. But, Kool-Aid is so sweet and all my friends like it.

[OnyxCollie]

133. K&R. nt

[closeupready]

134. K&R

[JEB]

136. It's not really about Obama.

It's about the policies. I will never support cuts to SS benefits, medicaid, or medicare. These programs deserve to be expanded and strengthened, not chipped away. Why not cut where the waste and fraud is abundant: DoD? Obama can either lead, or get out of the way.

[limpyhobbler]

139. On a bright note, it's good to see progressives rallying to defend Social Security and Medicare.

Great post.

[watoos]

142. The MSM helps the cons

control the narrative. Other than Rachel and Lawrence turn on MSNBC and they are arguing over Republican talking points. People like Cenk Unygur, K. Olbermann, even Dylan Ratigan were dumped by MSNBC because those people didn't follow the Republican script. Meet the Press should be called, Meet the Republicans. 6 multi-national corporations control all of the MSM, all are owned and operated by conservatives.

[Divine Discontent]

144. right on! the MSM is helping it along as ordered. it's sickening.

[mostlyconfused]

157. Pretty heated debate given that both sides basically agree on taxes

They agree on making no significant deficit reduction via tax increases.

Boehner wants the 4% increase in the top rate only for those in the $1+ million bracket. That will raise enough new taxes to address 1% of the current budget deficit.

Obama wants that increase on the $250,000+ crowd. That will cover 2-3% of the deficit.

Sure, we should drive off the cliff over that kind of difference. They are miles apart from each other.

[lumberjack_jeff]

159. Sometimes, the best you can hope for is hurting them more than yourself.

Social Security? Off the table.
Cuts to military? On the table.
Cuts to food stamps? Not really on the table... at least not immediately.
Raising taxes on the working class? A trivial amount - the SS tax holiday goes away.
Raising taxes on the rich? Very much on the table.

This austerity bullshit truly is bullshit. On the plus side, all of the downside is ramps in slowly, but all of the upside happens right now.

[historylovr]

162. Excellent post. nt

[emulatorloo]

181. You would know about Propaganda. It is your occupation.

[Bonobo]

187. Emulateadem? nt

[emulatorloo]

206. FUCK YOU

[Old Codger]

182. if Dems

Go along with switching to the chained CPI an d cut food stamps and any other low income or elderly programs they might as well just give it all up and go home that would mean that both parties are defunct..IMHO. I have voted in every election I have been old enough to vote in and I may just throw in the towel if this all goes that way.. They are for themselves and looks like only themselves.

[ProSense]

188. After a dramatic week, Social Security is again off the table

After a dramatic week, Social Security is again off the table
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022052075

I know, it's an upsetting victory.

[woo me with science]

192. Just like it was last time?

I am surprised you would link to that thread. It does not speak well for your tactics here, and it certainly does not show what you claim it does.

[ProSense]

197. No,

"Just like it was last time?"

...not really.

In January, it only gets worse for Republicans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022054555

[Enrique]

201. i feel like a moron for actually clicking your link

and clicking the link that the first link linked to. I should know by now that your links are just tricks.

[democrattotheend]

198. Check this out

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal this morning, it looks like the president hasn't been as spineless as we thought: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022054848

[hay rick]

199. kick.