Adam Lanza was wearing a bulletproof vest. How could armed teachers have stopped him?

[AZ Progressive]

Or rather, for that matter, armed security guards or even a single police officer?

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/12/20/the-other-loophole-bulletproof-armor-newtown-guns

"Adam Lanza wore a bulletproof vest as he opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., last Friday, killing 26 people—20 of them children under the age of 10. James Holmes, the alleged perpetrator of the Aurora, Col., theater massacre in July, wore an armor vest and a ballistic helmet."

Ordinary citizens with concealed guns are no match for a gunman with a bulletproof vest, and even armed security guards and a single police officer are no match for a gunman with bulletproof vests and military grade machine guns, and imagine if gunmen load their guns with armor piercing bullets (as in the case of the bank robbers in the 1998 North Hollywood Shootout.)

[MrSlayer]

1. Shoot him in the face?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Sure, you could try that.

I think you'd need to be an awful good shot to do it, though.

And the chaotic conditions would make it difficult.

[MrSlayer]

12. The OP asked how it could be done.

Shooting him in the face is how. You could go for the femoral artery too I guess. Headshot seems more efficient.

Since the whole thing is hypothetical, the armed guard in my scenerio is well trained and competent. He/she can make the shot against an amateur like this Lanza jerkoff.

Besides, he was a complete coward, the second authorities started to arrive he opted out. If there was a guard there or someone to confront him he probably wouldn't have done it at all or shot himself much sooner.

But that's all speculation, it could have gone another way entirely.

[graham4anything]

30. Zimmerman was a coward too.And a member of a security force when he shot & killed Mr. Martin

yeah, I want a million Zimmy's all over the country playing Paul Blart Mall Cop excpet that Paul Blart didn't have a gun and commonly forgotten was he was an inept asshole too

[MrSlayer]

33. I think we've gone off the rails here.

How do we get from well trained security to a fucking cowardly asshole like Zimmerman or a buffoon movie character being the defense?

We're no longer talking about the same thing.

[Hugabear]

39. By suggesting armed guards at all schools

By doing so, you're going to wind up with a bunch of Zimmermans at schools all over the country.

[MrSlayer]

57. I didn't suggest anything.

The hypothetical was brought up by the OP, I just went with it.

And one would hope that wanna be tough guys like Zimmerman would be shunted off in the interview process. Only real pros should be considered for such positions.

None of this is going to happen anyway.

[yardwork]

69. I don't think that there are enough "real pros" to place an armed guard in every single school.

The poster is correct. If the NRA's stupid idea were put into play we would have hundreds of thousands of George Zimmermans standing around lunch rooms holding enormous guns. This would cost millions of dollars. And it's very unlikely they would prevent many massacres.

[MrSlayer]

75. I agree with that.

We shouldn't do anything those idiots suggest.

[jmowreader]

55. Why do people forget that, I wonder

Paul Blart Mall Cop was supposed to be a comedy, and competent law enforcers aren't funny. Incompetent ones are a comedy staple; think Police Squad, Police Academy and South Park's Officer Barbrady.

[graham4anything]

92. Zimmy wasn't funny. He killed an unarmed man.

[jmowreader]

124. I must point out three things here

Zimmerman isn't a cop, he wasn't trying to be funny and I didn't mention him.

[exboyfil]

112. We do not know his motivation for stopping the

rampage. Maybe he accomplished what he wanted. Maybe he saw the corpses and felt guilt.


Armed Security at every school

How effective was Neil Gardner (armed security) at Columbine? Why didn’t he run into Columbine and take down the shooters? One of a two of first responders to the Sikh Temple shooting was shot even though he was forewarned and working with his partner. The same for the Ft. Hood shooting with one wounded as a team of two first responders encounter the shooter outside the building.

Four cops were killed in a local coffee shop in Washington.

Four cops killed including two SWAT by Mixon in Oakland.

Most recently two cops killed outside a grocery store in Kansas.

The Newhall shooting is instructive as to what happens when you are outgunned (so unless the security is carrying a long rifle with a 30 round magazine he would have been outgunned).

Remember based on statistics and the population of the U.S. you can go 80,000 years without encountering a mass shooting event. Guards have marvelous training but, unless you are in an active combat zone, it is difficult to keep your guard up.

Not to say that you could have some deterence value to an armed uniformed officer at the only entrance to a school. That is usually the first target.


Video of police station shooting. What would have happened with a single armed officer at the entrance of a school? In this case that was the first one to go down. Lamar Moore was using a 20 gauge pump action shotgun (Moosberg Model 500 which carries from 5 to 8 rounds). I don’t know what load or which version he was using. Consider how long it takes to reload a shotgun compared to a magazine fed weapon, how many rounds can be fired before reload (max 8 vs. 30), and how fast a semiautomatic fires in comparison to a pump action shotgun.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110128/NEWS01/110128009/Watch-video-released-by-Detroit-police-showing-police-station-gun-battle

Of course a couple of husky 12 year olds should have been able to take Lanza down.

[MrSlayer]

133. I don't want this.

All I did was mention how to kill a guy wearing a vest and it turned into a big brewhaha.

I don't want guns in schools, I don't want armed guards in schools. But if we did have them I laid out how I thought it should happen.

I'm in favor of universal health care that includes mental health and tighter gun laws.

I'm with you.

[thucythucy]

128. Who pays for training and arming

all these well trained armed school guards?

[MrSlayer]

132. Ideally it would be the government.

Which is probably the main reason it won't happen. All that baggers are for this nuttery but not a one would pay for it. Socialism you know.

[MANative]

23. My husband was a cop for a dozen years and my dad

a SharpShooter marksman in the Army for 27 years. They both say they were always trained to shoot for body mass. Head shots are ridiculously difficult, even for trained snipers.

[randome]

27. Hell, if a few kids or teachers get killed, it's worth it, right?

Because no police officer ever misses what he shoots at.

[dlwickham]

43. as opposed to 20 some kids and teachers being killed

not to be callous but a few kids killed is better than the alternative

[peacebird]

54. Except for the teacher who kills a kid accidentally when trying to kill a shooter.....

[dlwickham]

93. and that's why they should have trained guards/cops/whatever

a teacher should never be put in that position

[rustydog]

82. Who gets to decide what child dies tomorrow?

If it is yours, your sibling,your parent, is that OK with you because you've decided that is a price we are going to have to pay and accept?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

29. Thank you...that was my take on it too. n/t

[MrSlayer]

38. Ok, my dad was also a cop and a sharpshooter.

And yes, you are trained to shoot the body. But that does not mean that it has no effect when you hit a guy wearing a vest. Getting shot with a vest on still hurts like getting kicked by a donkey. It would put a skinny punk like this Lanza character on his ass. And remember, he killed himself at the first sign of authority coming. He had no stomach for a fight.

And accuracy is not impossible for a well trained pro. My dad can still spell your name on a paper target at the age of 70.

Acting as if there was no chance to stop this dude because he was wearing a vest is ludicrous.

[AZ Progressive]

4. The Aurora Shooter was wearing a Ballistic Helmet

Look back at the article in the OP.

[MrSlayer]

5. I know he was.

That isn't the question that was asked. It was about the latest asshole.

[AZ Progressive]

8. If you are in a panic, do you really think you can accurately shoot someone's head?

Comeon, be realistic.

[MrSlayer]

24. Absolutely.

That is realistic. A well trained shooter can hit the mark like he/she is pointing their finger. And not everyone panics and freaks out in stress situations, particularly people trained for such situations.

If you're talking about putting a gun in the hand of an untrained teacher or whatever, I'll agree. But a trained pro can make the shot fairly easily.

[frylock]

32. really, dude? you're smarter than this.

[MrSlayer]

41. Ok, never mind.

It's impossible to ever hit what you're shooting at.

I'm failing to see how what I'm saying is stupid or out of line.

[frylock]

61. have you ever fired a gun?

have you ever fired a gun under duress?

[MrSlayer]

73. Yes, many times. And not really, not to hit anyone anyway.

My dad was an army sharpshooter and a police officer for thirty years so, yes, I know how to shoot. I'm pretty good at it, not as good as he but good enough to hit what I'm aiming at.

Now, to answer your second question, no. I've never been in a shoot out with anyone but I have been in plenty of street fights and dangerous situations and I'm not a panicky guy. It's not bragging or internet tough guying or anything but I'm just able to maintain my cool in hairy situations. That doesn't mean I'd be able to dead eye people like Wild Bill Hickok but I don't think I'd just loose my head and shoot at random if something did happen. If I'm alone, the first thing I'm looking to do is escape. That is always the best option.

It's all hypothetical anyway. It's not like I walk around carrying a gun. I don't even have one in my house. When I had kids I gave my gun to my dad to hold and he still has it. I only use it when we target practice, maybe twice a year.

I have a dog for home protection. She's a big sissy though so its not much protection but at least she'll bark.

[exboyfil]

113. Watch this video of a police station getting

shot up by someone with a 20 gauge pump action. He is wearing no body armor and using a weapon not in the class of a 30 round magazine semiautomatic carbine. They take him down after he shoots four officers (all survived but one definitely because of her vest). They are using the desks and other furniture for cover. An armed guard/LEO stationed at the front door could be the first one shot in the school just like in this scenario.



http://www.freep.com/article/20110128/NEWS01/110128009/Watch-video-released-by-Detroit-police-showing-police-station-gun-battle

[JHB]

134. I used to do pretty decently at the range, but am now long out of practice...

The nearest I've come to shooting under duress was with air-powered pistols in paintball games (also long out of practice). Not a strictly even comparison since the air guns had less mass and lighter kick, but it was amazing at what range you could miss thanks to a little jerking of the trigger pulling it to the right.

[MineralMan]

52. Cops are well-trained, or are supposed to be.

Yet, they miss way more often that they hit their targets. There's no guarantee that school security people will be better trained than cops. In fact, it's highly unlikely.

[MrSlayer]

62. It's all hypothetical.

You are correct. In my hypothetical the guards are well trained, well paid ex-military types that don't need to work for Blackwater or whomever.

None of this is ever going to happen in reality. Hiring these guys would be government spending which we all know is "socialism". The people screaming most loudly for this are the people least likely to want to fund it.

[MineralMan]

64. LaPierre is proposing a volunteer corps of guards for schools,

not hired professionals. He proposes that the NRA train them, and that they volunteer. Who do you suppose will be eligible for this? I'm betting only NRA members.

Google School Shield. The NRA has already launched a website. No content yet, but it's coming.

[MrSlayer]

81. That's a terrible idea.

As someone mentioned above, the volunteers would most likely be a bunch of Zimmerman or Minuteman types just itching to shoot someone.

It has to be real pros or nothing.

[MineralMan]

120. Well, that's the NRA's idea for what to do.

Expect them to flesh out their website soon, and then watch the teabaggers sign up so they can carry their guns around our schools.

[MichaelHarris]

67. see these guys?

they didn't hit dick

[Hassin Bin Sober]

72. And there you have it.

There are DOZENS if not hundreds of videos like that - cops ducking and panic firing.

And this one is an example of the cops being a little more in control - about as good as it gets.

[MichaelHarris]

96. and according to the NRA

Last edited Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:19 PM - Edit history (1)

we want all that in our schools, the ducking, the firing, bullets flying!! My nips are hard at the thought of it!

[NewJeffCT]

90. That's 99% of the problem

They're proposing a very expensive solution to the problem, when you have a GOP controlled House that is so intent on protecting millionaires that they won't raise taxes even a penny on the richest Americans.

[randome]

20. With people coming and going all the time in a school, what is it you imagine happening?

The guard stands ready with his weapon drawn and an itchy trigger finger ready to fire at the first sign of trouble?

That's not a viable scenario.

[MrSlayer]

44. No. Of course not.

I'm starting to wonder why I bothered answering. Obviously the answer everyone is looking for is that there was nothing that could be done simply because he was wearing a vest.

Why is it impossible for security to react to a situation without him/her being a hyper-paranoid, finger on the trigger at all times superhero/psycho? And why is it impossible that anyone can hit what they shoot at?

[1-Old-Man]

15. Then shoot him in the foot, either way, he won't be going anywhere.

[AZ Progressive]

25. You really think someone can think reasonably in such a panicful situation?

Puhleeze, be reasonable. Even police get panic. Think about all the situations where police accidentally kill someone because they couldn't make a reasonable judgement at the heat of the moment. It would be hard to make a reasonable judgement in such a quick time.

[frylock]

34. i bet you could plug him in the eye from 50 meters behind the back..

right, sport?

[rustydog]

89. Are you kidding? you've never been in a shooting situation have you

are you like the gamers who brag about sniper shots at 1000 yards? Real life to someone who is trained and practices regularly still produces shots that missed. what would occur to the teacher who "qualifies to carry but has nefer been shot at? The armedcivilian passing by and hearing the shots...odds are they will be severely wounded or shot dead and the shootr will be killing more people.

One school deputy at columbine shot at least 4 rounds at one of the shooters from 60 yards and missed. The shooter entered the school and the carnage continued...

Assuming that others being armed guarantees the bad guy will lose is a horrible premise, but that is what the NRA and most2nd amendment hardliners cling to, a false premise.

[1-Old-Man]

141. Actually, yes I have.

And the comment, for those who are just to fucking dense to see it, was metaphorical - meaning of course that there places where a bullet might strike a person that would not be covered by a vest. If you're to fucking stupid to realize that you've got no business posting replies.

But as to your first comment - I served three tours of duty in Viet Nam, on the ground, as a grunt. I not only have been in shooting situations I have been on both the delivering and receiving end of a gun, with a Bronze Star with V-device as well as the Purple Heart. I know what a real assault weapon is and can do, I am more than familiar with what a .223 can do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Standard training is double tap center of mass and reevaluate.

By the time that happens cop or teacher is dead.

[MrSlayer]

31. Why?

Was this dude Rambo? Robocop? Taking two in the chest even with a vest still hurts. Still stops you or slows you down. I'll bet anything this guy still missed more than he hit with his shots. It's not like this Lanza was a fucking Seal or something, he was just a skinny little punk point blanking kids. At the first sign of authority coming he killed himself.

You're giving him too much credit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I am taking into account what you are not

He was suicidal.

Also Mr. Lanza actually suffered from a rare syndrome where he did not feel physical pain.

Serious, I was trained to drop and not move if I got shot when wearing level III-A armor...I also took care of a few cops who were, who were so jacked up on Adrenalin, they didn't want to have nothing to do with us EMS types until they saw the holes.

[MrSlayer]

66. So there is no way anyone could have done anything?

We just have to wait for the guy to kill himself?

I don't doubt the validity of anything you're saying here but getting blasted in the chest with a vest on is still going to knock you down and getting hit in the head is still going to kill you even if you can't feel it.

I don't like the way people are making this little putz into an invincible killing machine. He was not and it was not impossible to stop him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. A shotgun might knock you off your feet

A bullet, even a .45 ACP, no, not really. Another rifle will defeat the III-A by the way.

It, quite honestly, will stop folks who are not intent on killing themselves by cop.

Nah, what we need to do is stop these hunters before they show up at a school, church, shopping mall, place of work, and other public places. If you have to engage an active shooter, you are already behind the eight ball.

This is where all kinds of things the NRA wants is not a solution, it's just adding gas to an active fire.

Yes, a trained shooter might take the very difficult head shot, and even succeed, but we should make it plain, it's unacceptable to get to that point.

[MrSlayer]

83. I'm with you on that 100%.

This is the wrong conversation. Prevention should absolutely be the focus.

But the question was asked, so I answered. I'm not in favor of any guns in schools or anywhere in public really.

[SQUEE]

99. Actually much of my initial training was to engage Spetsnaz in a Nuclear Physical Security situtaion

And we assumed when they started to raise hell in the cantonment areas and kassernes, as well as the Pershing II sights prior to a push through the Fulda, they would have body armour and "sphera" helmets, it was decided best action was start at groin and allow the muzzle to rise. Idea was to score a femoral hit before reaching COM.

[spanone]

26. the toes, go for the toes.

[dlwickham]

42. and we have a winner!

or the leg or any other part of the body not covered by the vest

[Rex]

46. But you are taught to aim at center mass

so how much money will it cost to train teachers to hit a small moving target like the face? Your answer it sounds easy, which no doubt you intended but did not derail the overall point - which it seems everyone else got but you.

[MrSlayer]

104. And what was that point?

That no one could have done anything? I disagree.

[Recursion]

3. Because getting shot in the torso when you're in body armor still knocks you out

That's a kilojoule or so of kinetic energy, spread out across your rib cage. You will definitely drop what you are holding and be stunned. There's a high probability you will lose consciousness (it was a punch to the chest that knocked out Tyson, remember).

[AZ Progressive]

6. The North Hollywood shooters were shot multiple times

The bullets simply bounced from them.

Go to 2:32 in this video:

[frylock]

130. i think you discount the affects of adrenalin

[NYC_SKP]

7. Since you ask....

Several solid body shots with 12 ga slugs would knock him down, or buckshot rounds to the head or face would probably distract him.

Alternatively, buckshot to the legs could easily throw him off and damage to either femoral artery would kill him in a matter of minutes.

Handguns, on the other hand, would require more precise aim and would have both a greater danger of harming others and of missing altogether or just pissing him off more.

Not advocating for any of this, but if you're going to ask a technical question you need to be prepared for answers.

.......

[AZ Progressive]

14. Your asking police and security guards to be armed with shotguns when on guard?

Yep, you really feel safe knowing that you could be in the crossfire of a shootout between a gunman and an armed security guard. So that is better than responsible gun control?

Still, an ordinary citizen would not be able to carry a shotgun around, lol.

[NYC_SKP]

37. OK, just a second, OK? You asked a question and got an answer....

...that you then turn into "Your [sic] asking police and security....".

Look, I'm not asking squat from anyone.

Just answering your question, not recommending anything from anyone about any shotguns or guards and shit.

[Rex]

50. They already do this in schools, have been since the 1980s.

We've had cops in schools now for 30 years. Your point is a very valid one, just some in here are going to snark at you for pointing out the obvious stupidity of the NRA talking points from today.

Just ignore the snark.

[Toronto]

58. I believe the cops in the schools to which you refer

are A) secondary schools and B) there as much to control violence in the schools, as to keep out gang bangers...

[NYC_SKP]

144. Typical "did not comprehend the reply" response.

Pathetic.

Somebody asked a question, I answered, advocating nothing.

[budkin]

9. So basically those kids are just SOL if one of those dudes gets in there?

[MrSlayer]

47. That appears to be the consensus.

No one can hit anything they shoot at regardless of training, everyone panics like a child when shit goes bad and a vest makes you invincible.

It's amazing.

[MindPilot]

10. An armed teacher could have shot the gun out of his hand

then used some martial arts moves to subdue the shooter while catching the gun as it falls. It's really easy to do; I see it on teevee all the time!

Shouldn't be necessary, but


Just as a aside, no shooter would make it past the nuns who taught in my school. Sister Anna John would have taken him down with a ballistic eraser strike, and then neutralized him with a yardstick.

[NewJeffCT]

22. No - they could have used deadly ping pong balls

like that Texas congressman who claimed ping pong was deadlier than guns. I've even heard that Russian special forces are switching to ping pong paddles & balls as their standard issue weapon.

[Bucky]

94. In all Chuck Norris's hostage rescues, the gunmen usually stop, hold still, and look around helpless

That's when a trained cop, theater usher, deacon, line chef, or school guidance counselor can spring into action and take out the bad guys with a flying scissor kick.

[KittyWampus]

136. well actually, the answer is obvious. Teachers need grenades and/or tear gas.

Along with ancient Korean war machines.

[Bucky]

138. Hwacha talkin' bout, Wampus?

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

If it was good enough for Monty Python....

Arming the teachers and commit them to a fire fight in a school full of children with walls that will not stop bullets. What a great idea. why not just let them call in an air-strike. The military could let loose with a Hell fire Missile and no more Adam Lanza. want-a-bees.

Teachers jobs are already long. How much mandatory training will they need to hunt down and kill an intruder. why no just turn the U.S. Army into school teachers?

[randome]

16. You bring a bullet proof vest to a shooting contest, we bring a tank.

It's so easy.

[graham4anything]

95. I am not joking that I would rather have a drone waiting for the mass murderer than 1 more kid

zero tolerance
no guns in streets

they couldn't clean it up themselves, now it's too late

no more

and the public won't stop this time. Social media has outgunned the NRA

[napoleon_in_rags]

17. Rifle bullets go through vests. nt

[AZ Progressive]

21. Armed teachers would be able to draw a rifle fast enough!

Yep, they would be able to draw it as fast as the rifleman

[obamanut2012]

28. The chalk rail would make a great gun rack

[boston bean]

45. I say we give em fully auto weapons

behind bullet proof glass that they can run to and shoot the killer through a little square?

No??.... won't work????

[obamanut2012]

77. this made me lol

[napoleon_in_rags]

85. I hope you don't think I'm saying teachers should carry rifles.

I'm just pointing out a fact. The only safe way to defend against kevlar armored shooters is for people to walk around with rifles, concealed carry doesn't matter.

[NewJeffCT]

18. Cops arrived on the scene of Columbine

and were not able to stop a majority of the killings.

Additionally, while some RW publications have decried the fact that there were no men at Sandy Hook to overpower the shooter, when the killers entered the library at Columbine, it was full of high school students, male and female, some of whom were “jocks”

Yet, they somehow didn’t want to charge two armed psychopaths…

[X_Digger]

49. One misconception about columbine..

Police waited until they had sufficient force to confront the shooters. They secured the perimeter until SWAT arrived

Now, the tactics have changed. "Active shooter protocol" is the new training regime. Confront the shooter as soon as possible with as much force as can be mustered quickly.

[NewJeffCT]

84. There was an initial confrontation with the police

then, those police called for backup, the two killers then went into the library while the police waited for SWAT. The library was where over 20 were either killed or wounded.

[X_Digger]

103. Right.. today, police (and assuming SROs) would engage and stay engaged.

That wasn't a dig at the officers on scene, btw- those were the tactics at the time.

[Logical]

106. When you read the detailed description of the shootings you are begging.....

the cops to enter the building sooner. It annoys me to read it.

It seems like the police do not want to risk anything even though they know people are dying.

[exboyfil]

117. Yes and in at least two cases

One cop of a two man team was put down even after being forewarned and prepared. A single guard at the door is going to be the first casualty (like in the Detroit Police Station shooting). Now you want two guards? $20B/yr.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. Obviously, make sniper training a prerequisite to teacher cert.

We should also issue them armor piercing rounds and small ordnance such as hand grenades.

[WinkyDink]

35. Give teachers grenades!

[AZ Progressive]

40. Columbine High School Had Armed Guards During Massacre In 1999

So much for the idea that armed guards or police officers would be the solution:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/columbine-armed-guards_n_2347096.html

"In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School. The destruction occurred despite the fact that there was an armed security officer at the school and another one nearby -- exactly what LaPierre argued on Friday was the answer to stopping "a bad guy with a gun."

Deputy Neil Gardner was a 15-year veteran of the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff’s Office assigned as the uniformed officer at Columbine. According to an account compiled by the police department, Gardner fired on Harris but was unsuccessful in stopping him:

Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.
After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."

The second officer was Deputy Paul Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket. When he heard a dispatch of a woman injured at the high school, he responded. He, too, fired at Harris but didn't stop him."

[Glassunion]

60. Well, 60 yards is a very long shot with a handgun.

I once shot at a target that was 100 yards out with a handgun from a bench. The bullet hit the ground before it reached the target. I can't imagine that 60 yards would be easy by any stretch.

[onenote]

91. Well, if that's where he was relative to the shooters what was he supposed to do

How do you guarantee that a guard get close enough, or in proper position to take out the shooter, particularly when the guard presumably will not want to hit any bystanders or other innocents, while the shooter not only will be firing back at the guard but won't give a damn whther he hits anyone else.

[Glassunion]

114. I'm sorry.

I get what you are saying completely. I'm not saying that we should have guards at all. I was just commenting on the difficulties that even a police trained individual would have had in that situation. I feel the officer had acted quite appropriately, the situation was stacked against him to begin with.

[pnwmom]

48. And maybe the armed security guard, who probably doesn't get a whole lot of shooting practice,

would accidentally hit one of the kids or teachers instead.

[MineralMan]

51. Standard training calls for aiming at the center of mass.

that's what the vest protects. So, odds are the armed teacher would shoot once, and then get shot.

[Iggy]

53. I've Yet to See A Bulletproof Vest

with head or leg extenders..

SHOOT the perp in one or both knees.. that will end the battle. Mr. Lanza looks like he weighed maybe 120 pounds. even with a vest, a shot to the chest with a large caliber pistol is going to knock him on his ass... slow him down.

That said, I am not in favor of arming teachers or principals. I am not an NRA member, but Mr. LaPierre does have a point: we spend Billions on foreign aid to arsehole nations like Pakistan.. and the deadbeats in congress just spent $2 Trillion on two wars of choice. the notion "we can't afford" to post one or two armed cops in every school and "we can't afford" state of the art security systems in our schools is total, weak bullcrap.

[AZ Progressive]

125. Wait a minute, you don't expect the gunman to shoot back?

Shooting the gunman in the knees won't stop a determined shooter from shooting back, maybe disabling him from walking.

[Iggy]

139. Another Fantasy Lander

you do realize, right, that if I shoot you in the knee with a .38 or .45, you're going to be in immense pain? how are you going to aim your gun straight when you're writhing in pain?? and probably in shock from the injury????

are we dealing with Robocop here?

how convenient you ignore my main point: that a perp wearing a Kevlar vest is NOT invulnerable. the notion a vest makes you some sort of unstoppable superman is a total joke.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

56. The answer is obvious

Give the teachers depleted uranium ammunition. Maybe some mustard gas. And put landmines in the hallways. That'll keep the nutjobs away...

[Glassunion]

63. The Audio Visual Team's job just got a lot harder...

[The Straight Story]

59. Pffft use a light saber, cuts right through em (nt)

[Glassunion]

65. I'm confused. I read the article, is body armor a bad thing?

I've been stabbed and that shit hurts. When at work, if we are having someone arrested that day, I have a vest on. Are vests now bad and only the tools of criminals and madmen?

[WhoIsNumberNone]

70. It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if not just anybody could buy one.

I have no problem with anyone who has a security/law enforcement type job having a vest. But much like assault rifles and cop-killer bullets, what does your average civilian really need one for?

[Glassunion]

79. "What does your average civilian really need one for?"

What if I'm walking home in a hoodie, with some Skittles and an Iced Tea?

[WhoIsNumberNone]

86. So do you wear one every time you leave the house?

[Logical]

107. maybe you missed his point. Zimmerman.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

109. I didn't miss his point. Did you miss mine?

[Glassunion]

115. A hoodie or a vest?

Hoodie - just about every day in the colder months.
Vest - only when I have to accompany security (I'm not in security)

[WhoIsNumberNone]

116. When you are putting yourself in a situation where it's reasonable to think there could be trouble

it's a reasonable precaution.
What your previous post seems to be implying is that if only Trayvon Martin had been wearing a vest when he went out to buy Skittles, he could have survived Zimmerman's attack. So do you think it's reasonable to wear body armor to the convenience store?


And to clarify- I did mean a vest.

[Glassunion]

118. Reasonable? I don't see why not.

A vest hurts no one. If someone wishes to wear one for whatever reason what is the problem? What does the vest do or have the potential to do to others around the person wearing it?

[MineralMan]

68. Many years ago, I used to compete in pistol competitions.

I could, and probably still can, make a good shot at a head-sized target in a classroom sized space, if I have the time to aim properly. Generally, that time isn't available. That's why trained cops are taught to shoot at the center of mass. Most of them could hit a head if they had time, like they do at the range. There is no time, though, when some guy is firing off rounds from a semi-auto rifle or pistol. Taking time to aim properly at a smaller target gets you shot.

So, armed teachers? I don't think so. If they aimed for center of mass, they might actually hit their target sometimes. If they're shooting, say a 9mm pistol, the shooter will simply aim at the teacher and fire a few rounds. That's it.

This entire exercise is foolish. The answer is not in arming teachers, who don't want to be armed in the first place. They want to teach. The answer lies elsewhere, and not on the schoolgrounds.

[Taverner]

74. The NRA is crazy. All kinds of crazy.

This last press conference should be evidence to that

[TheManInTheMac]

76. Arm them with rocket launchers. Duh!

[JoePhilly]

78. A teacher's body has a way to shut that whole think down!

[wickerwoman]

100. DUzy!

Why oh why can we not recommend posts?

[rustydog]

80. There you go thinking again!!!!

Everyone on the Right and the NRA knows for certain it is a GIVEN that the flag-waving, gun-totin HERO will be the winner by default. more guns means the shooter will lose, duh!
If that fails, then the good-guy should be able to pull off a "head shot" no problem negating the kevlar.

[libdem4life]

87. Somehow he walked from the parking lot to the school with 3 guns...apparently one that didn't

fit up his ass...and that some clever Security Guard might have just had the training or the skill, or god rest him, provided the first fatality OUTSIDE so the Principal was not the first person to be aware. Or, maybe he'd have had time to press his 911 button and do some talking. That is what they are trained to do. At least she'd have had immediate backup...if not prevention.

Geez, guess we all just better throw up our hands and let 'em come at us.

The defenses get stupider every day.

[AZ Progressive]

88. And you think that the killers are stupid?

Many of these shooters were gifted children or known to be intelligent. You think they would be stupid to not take potential armed security into consideration?

Ok, lets say that one school has armed security. They will pick another target. Will everywhere have to have armed security?

[libdem4life]

122. They are likely also psychotic and some would argue insane, as well.

What we do know, is that he knew no one in the school was armed.

And not every "target" has a classroom of little ones. That we also know.

Pretend like the classrooms are airplanes and the pilots and attendants are teachers. We figured out a way to keep them safe without burdening them with guns and we all got used to it.

[Travis_0004]

97. Although a vest will stop a bullet, it is still painful.

When somebody is shot with a bullet proof vest, they still feel pain, sometimes get broken ribs etc.

When people get shot, even with bulletproof vest, they do feel the pain, and it affect them.

By your same logic, should cops not be issued guns because some criminals have bulletproof vest?

[former-republican]

98. Ban bullet proof vests

[onenote]

101. I don't know that its been confirmed that the Sandy Hook shooter was wearing body armor

Also, despite reports describing the Aurora shooter as wearing body armor, the reality apparently is that he was wearing a tactical vest that provides easy access to multiple magazines of ammunition, but is not body armor or made out of any bulletproof material (its made out of nylon). The vest worn by the Aurora shooter was manufactured by a company known as TacticalGear and probably retailed for $100 or less. A true bullet proof vest or body armor will cost upwards of $400 or $500. Here is a link to a description of the type of vest that the aurora shooter apparently was wearing. Nowhere does it give any suggestion that it provides protection from bullets. http://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest

I say this not as support for the idea of arming teachers or even placing armed guards in schools. That's a bad idea, not because the shooter may be wearing bullet proof clothing, but because a teacher or guard, no matter how well trained, will always be at a disadvantage when confronting a homicidal maniac. The teacher or guard will always be a bit slower on trigger because the teacher or guard will always be concerned about hitting an innocent person or bystander -- will always have to wait for a "clean" shot. On the other hand, the homicidal maniac will be firing back at the guard/teacher indiscriminately -- the shooter doesn't care whether or not innocents are hit -- indeed, there are no "innocents" -- just targets and potential targets.

As far as the suggestion that an armed teacher or guard can take out a shooter with a bullet proof vest by shooting them in the head or leg -- I suspect that these people have an inflated sense of the marksmanship of the average trained gun user. Consider that this is likely to be a panicked situation and the homicidal shooter may not be standing still presenting a clean target and will likely be firing in the direction of the guard/teacher, the idea that the guard/teacher can "pick their spot" simply is going to be unrealistic many if not most of the time.

[SQUEE]

102. Actually its pretty easy

Equip them with 5.7, in its proper and original configuration.

[former-republican]

105. You are posting way over the ballistic knowledge of most members here.

[SQUEE]

108. And that seems to be part of the problem

We are arguing over something that many on both sides don't understand, and I mean on a technical level.
The Belgians, created a round and 2 platforms to utilize it that are actually tailor made for the exact scenario being debated.
FNH made the P90 specifically for non "hi-speed" rear echelon personal. And the round is engineered to penetrate most common configurations of body armor. Compact, and to be honest a less than intimidating design,and simple to use.

[former-republican]

110. "Believe me" I know all that

That's not what members want to talk about here.

[bullimiami]

111. They dont have money for teachers. Where are they getting the budget for armed security guards.

[Glassunion]

121. Well we could start by not declaring trillion dollar wars

Everytime there is a republican president.

However even if the money was there I do not think schools need armed guards. I would make school building code changes with that money.

[Crunchy Frog]

119. Well obviously. They all need to have "cop killer" bullets.

[Aerows]

123. The one in Aurora was, too

AND a helmet.

All of these Rambo-wannabes keep thinking they can "shoot them in the face" and "take them out like John Wayne" don't realize that when a tragedy like this happens, it happens quickly.

Even the most prepared human being on the planet, someone vigilantly looking for a situation like this is going to be daunted by body armor. That's why members of our military and our police officers wear it, and they are far more prepared and vigilant than Joe Six-Pack who thinks he's a badass because he shoots on the weekend. That's because they KNOW they are going into a dangerous situation during the course of their jobs and are expecting it.

Who expects to get shot at during a movie, or teaching a class?

[onenote]

135. not so. later reports indicated it was not "body armor"

it was a nylon "urban assault" vest made by a company called TacticalGear. Police officials have confirmed its not a "bullet proof" vest and no where on the company's website does it indicate that the vest offers any such protection.

http://www.gjsentinel.com/breaking/articles/retailer-who-sold-to-aurora-shooter-getting-backlash

[valerief]

126. First you get invisible. Then you get an invisible machine gun. Then, making sure you're not

wearing any cologne or anything, you sneak up behind him and shoot him in the head.

Otherwise, it can't be done. Well, not unless you OUTLAW FREAKIN' ASSAULT WEAPONS AND KEEP THEM OUT OF HIS HANDS TO BEGIN WITH.

I vote for option 2.

[southernyankeebelle]

127. Maybe the teachers can borrow from their students the bulletproof backpack that are flying

on the shelf.

[Jenoch]

129. There has been so much

bad reporting and misinformation on this story, how do we know for sure Lanza was actually wearing a bullet resistant (there is no such thing as a bullet proof vest) vest?

[Marrah_G]

131. All security guards can make a headshots on moving targets and under extreme pressure....

....pretty much never.

[Blackhawk44]

137. simple solution... steel bullets

a steel bullet would defeat any
non-hardshell Body Armor

[TroglodyteScholar]

140. With a head shot, duh!

Every teacher, regardless of their stance on guns, should have to demonstrate the ability to successfully connect with a head shot! What good is a teacher if they can't do that?

( , for those who are so impaired)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

142. Teachers would have to be sharp shooters

like John Wayne

in the middle of a science experiment I can't imagine going for my gun and shooting the intruder in the middle of the forehead with kids in the way.

[Chiyo-chichi]

143. Do we know how he got an armor vest and a ballistic helmet?

I assume he didn't take those from his mother. Did she buy them for him? Do we know?

Not the most pressing issue in all this, but where/how/under what circumstances did he get them?