I'd really like to see a serious, logical discussion about

[NashvilleLefty]

gun rights and gun control in this country.

But right now all I see is just stupid rhetoric.

When are we going to have a REAL discussion?

I'm guessing never. So i don't even know why I'm posting this. I guess that I'm a just an optimist.

[Scootaloo]

1. So basically you want to see a thread that says exactly what you agree with...

But you don't want to actually start that thread yourself?

[Baitball Blogger]

3. Maybe what the poster wants is more forward movement?

Someone in Hollywood seems to know the right direction:

[NashvilleLefty]

5. This is exactly what i'm talking about. nt

[Scootaloo]

6. Really?

I'm simply saying that if you want to see a particular discussion, well, maybe you should be the one taking the initiative on that instead of wondering why no one else is doing so (a point which I would argue over, but, hey I guess it depends on what your definition of "Serious and logical" is.)

[NashvilleLefty]

8. Maybe you should see my other posts on the same subject

before shooting your mouth off.

Oh, sorry about the "pun" - it was totally unintentional.

But, yeah, I've posted several other threads which makes your accusations totally moot.

Again, why can't we have a SERIOUS discussion? It has been started, and perhaps you choose not to participate. Perhaps you choose instead to point fingers.

I'm willing to talk. Are you?

[Voice for Peace]

26. I think there's a lot of serious discussion going on.. even here, among those DUers

who don't think they know it all.. which I think is many
or most of us.

You have to skip around and ignore a lot of posts.
Thoughtful questions are being raised, thoughtful suggestions
being put forth.

I'm almost entirely ignorant about guns and solutions so
I'm mostly reading and listening to others, trying to get a
well-rounded perspective.

I don't know what is actually doable, nor what will work.
But I'm trying to stay part of the conversation, and re-post to
FB whatever affects me or makes sense to me.

Trying to be informed, and alert, and fair in my thinking.

You can't change the way somebody else wants to discuss,
and there will always be non-serious or contrary folks.

There will always be viewpoints very different from mine, and
I try to learn from them, not just reject outright.

Don't lose your optimism. Keep sharing your best
understanding. Ignore the static or personal affronts --
just ignore them.

[applegrove]

2. The families of the victims of recent shootings are all in touch with each

other. They will soon become Brady on steroids. The discussion has started. Don't lose heart.

[raquel69]

4. All we are getting is

blah blah which won't solve the problem. Even children are telling me this.

[NashvilleLefty]

9. The children shall lead them...

we could learn so much if we actually listen to them.

I mean LISTEN, without adding our own preconceptions to what they are saying.

[Posteritatis]

7. (insert hyperbolic, polarizing response) (nt)

[NashvilleLefty]

10. LOL!

Welcome to DU!

Oh...

[yewberry]

11. All right. I'm an optomist too. You want a REAL discussion?

Stupid rhetoric?

What compromise are you willing to make? The NRA and gun rights activists have run the table. You have had everything you want. Tell me, what do you think we non-gun people have to offer? YOU ARE IN CONTROL. Why are you asking us to supply answers to the problems that you create?

What the fuck else do you want from us? YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

[Skittles]

12. yup

every time they say they want "real discussion" all we get from them is NRA propaganda......I say we have listened to them ENDLESSLY for decades and we are DONE listening to them - I can only hope we don't listen to the climate deniers until the inevitable catastrophe strikes

[world wide wally]

13. How's this for real?... FUCK GUNS

I have no problems with hunting at all, but no deer or elk or rabbit is ever going to give you more than 2 shots. So, let's make it a 2 shot limit.
I'm serious

[Jenoch]

27. There is no mention

of hunting in the 2nd Amendment.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. The more pointless name calling that is thrown back and forth along with talking point rhetoric...

And the better chance we have of even this tragedy fading into obscurity like every other tragic shooting. And then all we get out of it is the status quo. The gun nuts want the status quo so unfortunately, the gun control lobby will have to take the lead with REAL discussion.

[rbennettucm]

15. Skeptical

I'm honestly not sure that we are capable as a society anymore of engaging in an open, honest, rhetoric free, pundit-free, and gamesmanship-free discussion about such a loaded topic. I hope I am wrong. I am afraid I am not.

If we have any hope left at all, I believe whole-heartedly that we must ban ALL politicians from the participating; they are necessarily biased and almost guaranteed to have an agenda from the outset and both are huge liabilities if we are to have any shot at all at meaningful and civil debate. The scariest part of the equation from where I sit is the newly discovered NRA penchant for gauging the public's reaction and biding their time before making public statements following another tragedy. After the Cleveland shooting the NRA could hardly keep it together for 24 hours...and the public had much lower expectations. This week was a test that they passed with flying colors; Advanced SocioPolitical Manipulation of the Masses via Delayed Satisfaction. The public was told that the NRA would make a statement today...and HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people were on pins and needles in anticipation. They managed, in their silence, to appear reverent, thoughtful, even considerate of the need for families of the dead children to be given time to at least bury their loved ones before the real battle of the talking heads commenced. It was a first in NRA publicity moves that don't make them look like crazies clutching their shiny new guns and antiquated amendment - but rather a public interest lobby with real live humans driving the machine. Of course, the speech today was loony tunes, and they really are human shaped turd monsters, but we should all be paying attention....because it looks as though they've check mated those of us who were still harboring hope for a more moderate and civilized approach to reasonable gun control we can all agree on.

[Demo_Chris]

16. Serious? Okay, since you ask...

Serious follows:

Whether we want gun control or not, this incident, nor the next, nor the next, nor the next, going on forever, are NOT going to result in any kind of meaningful anti-gun legislation. We can get angry about it, we can get all fired up listening to passionate speeches from people who agree with our positions, but nothing is going to change until the hundreds of millions of gun owners accept that THEIR weapon is a bad thing and THEY voluntarily remove it from their lives.

Until then, here's more of that serious you wanted:

There are hundreds-of-thousands or even millions of rabid PASSIONATE gun owners who believe that their toys are all that stand between tyranny and freedom. There is no sense debating this here, the point is that they believe it. Even tragedies like mass shootings are seen as acceptable losses, blood watering the tree of liberty if you will. They watch their Fox and they listen to their radio, they talk to other gun owners and they visit their radical right websites, and they believe that the "black Marxist Socialist Nazi Muslim Kenyan" wants to take their guns and destroy America. Or something like that. The how and why details are fuzzy and they don't matter even to the believers, because this is what they have spent their entire gun-collecting lives waiting for. In their minds they are PATRIOTS, they are the GREAT AMERICANS, they are American HEROES--

And they can't wait for the opportunity to open fire.

Keep in mind, they are in full freak out mode. The economy is a disaster and their TV and radio say that it's all liberal's fault. Their political party is imploding (too liberal), their country is changing (F'ing liberals), their God's are under attack (godless liberals!), there are gays in the military and getting married (god dammed liberals!), there's a black guy -- A BLACK GUY -- in the White House and they think he might be a Muslim. Remember, they really believe this nonsense. If they were unhinged under Clinton (and they were) they are batshit crazy on crack right now.

Telling them to surrender their weapons, or worse attempting to collect them, is the signal they have been waiting for. That's what Fox and Rush and the NRA have been warning them about for years. Right now, as I type this at the crack of dawn, there are hundreds of these nutcases sitting in their dark living rooms, lovingly oiling their metal children and thinking about what they will do and who they will kill first. They have waited their whole lives for the chance to strike a blow for liberty (read: kill people) and demonstrate how awesome they and their guns are.

In short:

Dismantling this mess is like disarming a bomb. You don't go in there with a chainsaw. You have to move slowly and carefully and defuse it without setting it off. My opinion is that the thing to do at this time is to back away from these guy's gun cabinets, let the crazies keep their weapons until they can safely be disarmed, and focus our attention on addressing the other side of this problem: mental health.

NOTE/EDIT: In the above post I am NOT talking about regular decent sane law-abiding gun owners. There are as many great reasons to enjoy guns as their are people who own them, and I mean no disrespect to gun owners in general, and if any offense was taken please accept my apologies.

Anyway, that's all just my opinion. If you read all that, THANKS!

[socialindependocrat]

17. I'd say that was seriously paranoid!

You have a group of Democrat gun owners who agree that there is a problem that needs to be resolved.

Now, start again.

Take a deep breath.

I see your edit. Remember you are on DU. You are talking to liberal-minded gun owners.

Your saying a bunch of stuff like, sitting in the dark, oiling our weapons is really not us.

We went thru the last election stunned at the lies Fox and Romney and Lyin ryan were spewing to win an election.

your rage should be at the people who misuse guns - You do seem to target the Repuke side of things.

Your comment regarding mental health would probably be a good place to start.

Now, get serious - really.

[daleanime]

18. It may have been a little over the top in the statement...

but I don't think it was wrong.

[socialindependocrat]

19. He's talking about a small group of people on the right (mostly)

I believe that the Democrat gun owners are responsible shooters who are willing to work to find an answer to the problem.

I have been called a troll just because I try to justify gun ownership
by people who are interested in guns and shooting and collecting.

This troll crap, sitting in the dark oiling my rifle, my precious, my precoius
limp dick talk is not necessary if we are seriously trying to resolve this
problem with identifying mental instability and the potential for violence.

He said he was writing a serious response but he couldn't get past the paragraph
without getting into the mud.

He did say he was sorry in an edit.
I assume he read his own post and saw that it was offensive to some.
Apology accepted - Thank you.

but if you really want to be serious there are things to discuss
and ideas to be put on the table. I was offering him a second
chance to come forth with some constructive ideas.

The whole point of the thread is asking for people to have a serious discussion
without having it decay into name calling and illogical lambasting.

I keep picturing the scene in Frankenstein where all the townsfolk have their
pitchforks and flaming torches and they're ready to linch.

We can't solve this problem without serious committed discussion.

If someone wants to mouth off there are plenty of other threads where they can "piss on the gun nuts".

[Demo_Chris]

22. Yes, it was over the top, but I wanted to make a critical point

We are not talking here about laws to control reasonable and rational people. There are about fifty million gun owning families in America. MOST are just like us. In fact, I am one of them.

But in any group that large there are some who are more serious about things. In the case of gun owners, about one in ten gun owning families are NRA members. There are about 5 million people out there who are so serious about their guns, so comitted to retaining them, that they pay their money to the NRA to represent them. We got a taste of what those folks believe yesterday.

Most of them are still totally-sane non-violent people. But some are not. If only one-in-a-hundred NRA members were potentially dangerous, that's still fifty-thousand heavily armed and potentially violent people you are dealing with. In other words, just slightly less than the number of troops currently stationed in Afghanistan.

All of these percentages are, of course, completely made up. No one knows. But remember, the number is significant enough that "They are coming for your guns!" is a never ending rallying cry for Fox, talk radio, and the GOP. THEY think the number of people swayed by this is significant. They are the ones bringing guns to Teaparty rallies, talking about second amendment solutions, and looking forward to the day they can water the tree of liberty.

So given all that....

Exactly how over the top WAS my post after all? Let me cut to the chase: if anyone thinks disarming America would happen without carnage on an unimaginable scale, they are not thinking the problem through. We can't even arrest people for unpaid traffic tickets without the danger of violence. Even without any kind of gun-grab, the situation is pretty freaking dangerous right now. The situation is unstable, and in my (inexpert) opinion the threat of right-wing terrorism is off the charts.

But again, I did not, in ANY way, intend to insult gun owners in general or suggest that they are anything but good people. Half the people reading this forum own guns. Some are even passionate about them. They have them for hunting, target shooting, protection, or just because they are beautiful and amazing machines. Some own military style weapons because they think they are cool and fun to shoot. I am not talking about them. So again, if anyone took offense I apologize.

And one final point. Let's assume that we can somehow, magically, come up with a way to disarm the American people without violence. How exactly do you intend to compensate people for the property you have seized. Some of these people have tens-of-thousands of dollars worth of weaponry. Even a basic hunting rifle or handgun costs hundreds or thousands of dollars. It would have to be paid for.

[socialindependocrat]

24. Thanks for your reply - Agreed - Wer're on the same page

I have tried to write all my responses in a very low, calm voice

but that doesn't come across on the post.

I find myself having to give people the benefit of the doubt when reading.

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

[Demo_Chris]

25. Thank you! I need to work on my writing style, toning things down. (nt)

[Comrade_McKenzie]

20. When a "right" is abused... then the people should have a right to limit that right...

I don't think I have a problem with limiting rights that have majority support.

Public opinion is always 10-steps ahead of the govt.

[Demo_Chris]

23. You SHOULD have a problem with this

Respectfully, we do not base our rights on public opinion. We base them on the constitution. Every time someone speaks truth to power or demands equality, they are, in the minds of some, abusing their rights.

[Taitertots]

21. A serious discussion starts with the fact that we live in the most peaceful era of human history

Including before guns were even invented.

The serious logical discussion is absent because people are worked up into a paranoid frenzy because a very rare and very tragic loss of life. Serious logical discussion won't come about when people are still terrified.