What will a perpetually bored cop do in school?

[Atman]

Face it, the overwhelming odds are that NOTHING will happen. Day in and day out, the cop goes to the school...and stands there. And stands there. And wanders the halls as nothing happens.

How long do you think it will be before the bored cops just start finding things to go after? Seriously, there will more than likely be no real security threat...so "mission creep" will inevitably set in. Some schools might actually find this attractive.

Be afraid. This proposal is bad on so many levels.

[Archae]

1. And what if the cop flips out, like the one in northern WI that wounded my cousin's son...

And killed 6 other kids?

[madaboutharry]

7. Are you talking about the incident in Crandon?

That cop wasn't on duty at a school. It took place at a party and he was after an ex- girlfriend. I am sorry about your cousin's son, I hope he recovered well.

[Archae]

24. He's still recovering, physically.

Yes, the Crandon shooting.

Mentally, I hope he is too, I mean he saw 6 friends shot to death in front of him.

[Kingofalldems]

2. A cop would become a highly paid hall monitor

[kydo]

3. the cops at my local schools never looked bored

I hit reply to soon cause I meant to add this.

There are cops on school grounds already. There is nothing wrong with it. Now armed guards is a different thing. Armed guards should not be at schools they would get bored. Armed guards are for prisons.

[Atman]

5. There are cops in the schools with security issues

Lapierre called for armed guards in EVERY school. I live in a small CT town that doesn't even have a police department. We have 1 marine cop for the lake. Do we really need an armed guard in our school? Do I have to pay tax dollars for Wayne LaPierre's paranoia?

[kydo]

8. no, no security issues at the schools

seeing how every school in the county I am in has cops on grounds. They are usually county deputies or state troopers. Mostly its because my state spends more money on their drug program D.A.R.E. then they do on other educational programs. So for the past 20+ years there have been cops at all levels of school. They help with crime but also engage the kids, community building. The kids know their names, and the cops know them.

And they have never looked bored.

But look I agree we do not need the armed guards in schools. The cops that are on many school campus now and while they are armed they don't stand guard out front with rifles.

I don't want armed guards with rifles pacing the entrances of schools. Schools are not prisons.

[Atman]

10. DARE is a whole different scam.

Police departments rely on the funds, but DARE has never been proven to be effective at stopping drug use. But the police get really cool new SUV's with fancy graphics.

[kydo]

20. I know hence why I called it a joke

[GoCubsGo]

4. My high school had a cop.

That was back in the 1970s. He didn't seem bored. He was too busy dealing with truancy, drugs, fights, students who we drinking... Granted, my school had over 2000 students. I could see cops in elementary schools and small schools being bored.

[Atman]

6. This isn't what LaPierre is advocating.

High school's, especially large ones, have these issues and hire cops. That is different from what LaPierre is proposing.

[kydo]

18. cops vs armed guards

That is the confusion. Cops, police and law enforcement are not the military and armed guards.

Many schools across this country already have cops. Many have cops not soley because it is a high crime area or that school may have security issues, but they also have them for other reasons. This is not new, in the 70's and 80's I remember having cops at schools. I'm a military brat went to many different school from all over the country. When my kids were in school they had cops.

But armed guards, thats what the nra wants. They want armed guards to patrol the perimeters like it was a military base or prison yard.

We don't need armed guards at schools especially when most schools already have cops. We need less guns.

[Atman]

22. We had cops, too. Not full time, though.

They'd just drop by occasionally and wander around. But it was the 70's...they couldn't stay long because they'd get a contact high from all the pot smoke wafting from the bathrooms.

[GoCubsGo]

19. I understand that.

I'm just pointing out that there can be lots of other things for cops to do in as school besides act as armed guards. And, I am not saying that I advocate what LaPierre is proposing. I do not.

[Fumesucker]

9. He'll be fucking with the "different" kids, the blacks, the goth types (or whatever's replaced that)

The ostracized kids (and there always some) will come in for a great deal of negative police attention because they are "threats".

And so on and so on.

Not all of them of course but enough where I can see the entire exercise as a net negative as far as the kids are concerned.

[Atman]

11. Precisely my contention.

They will eventually have to "justify" their presence.

[Fumesucker]

15. Not even that, it's just what some largish percentage of cops *do*

As naturally as breathing comes to them they're going to want to screw with anyone who isn't cookie cutter cleancut and cheerfully bright.

By no means will it be all cops but there will be a substantial minority who will act that way.

[Lizzie Poppet]

57. Goths are still there. =)

It's a surprisingly long-lived subculture.

As for the cops in schools thing, I like that this thread is actually talking about the problems with the idea instead of just vilifying it because that jackwagon LaPierre suggested it. That's inane, especially considering Bill Clinton made the same sort of proposal in 2000. Ideas should stand or fall on their merit, not their origin.

My take? It would be a hideously expensive waste of time.

[Smarmie Doofus]

12. They'll hang. They'll schmooze. They'll distract other support staff...

who should really be doing things.... including idle superfluous admins...and they will all all hang and schmooze together.

That's always been the way at any school I've worked in.

[Atman]

13. And they'll help get kids accustomed to a police state

Just sayin.

[notadmblnd]

14. He'll harass the students

[hobbit709]

16. Same thing I did as a perpetually bored kid in school. Get into something.

[HereSince1628]

17. Thing is the NRAs solution says the shootings can't be stopped

The approach of law enforcement to such things isn't one lone cop standing against the assailant, it's a heavily armed tactical unit. Law enforcement doesn't really want to put themselves at risk either.

setting aside the issue of cost, or diversion of police protection, setting aside mission creep.

Are there actually psychologically adapted people who can do this?

How do you construct the personnel requirement so you get a LEO who is both psychologically prepared to be a measured and comforting friend of children, who often test and tweak authority, and the warrior ready to suicidally face death to protect them?

[Phentex]

21. Crossword puzzle.

I think it's a stupid idea.

[davidn3600]

23. Many schools already have armed "Resource Officers" that take part in educating

They tell kids the dangers of gangs and drugs.

In schools that do this, the officers don't get bored.

[Atman]

26. DARE is a scam.

Cops should be really protecting people and "fighting crime." They're not hall monitors or teachers.

[Fumesucker]

27. DARE has been shown ineffective or even counterproductive

In other words having cops in the schools doing that is a total waste of money.

Not to mention if the cop is busy doing drug education that doesn't work they are not going to be on guard for an Adam Lanza shooting out the windows and walking in.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Controversies/20070111184521.html

The popular Drug Abuse Resistance Education (DARE) program has consistently and without exception been found by scientific research to be ineffective and sometimes counterproductive -- that is, worse than doing nothing. That’s the conclusion of the US Department of Education (DOE), the US Surgeon General, the US General Accountability Office (GAO), and the American Academy of Sciences, among others. The Department of Education strictly prohibits the use of any of its funding to support DARE in any school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I know what the data says but I really like DARE.

We have a wonderful DARE officer who has been in our school for many years and knows our community pretty well. She spends a lot of her time on gang awareness activities, which our kids really need. And the kids just love her. She's a born teacher.

I realize this is just one cop and not all DARE cops are as good as she is. And I hate the idea that DARE is supposedly going to solve the country's drug problems. But I do think our program is very good.

[Fumesucker]

37. The problem with DARE is that they don't tell the whole truth and they do sometimes lie

Then once the kids find out they've been lied to about one aspect they think the whole thing is a pack of lies, I can't really say I blame them, there are plenty of us here on DU who are really skeptical of the Democratic party because they can't be trusted to tell the whole truth.

If you lie to kids it will backfire on you just about every time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Oh I know. I just feel lucky that we have such a great DARE officer.

And the program at my school does seem to work. But I've seen DARE in practice since it began and know it's not always effective. And some of the DARE cops shouldn't be anywhere near kids.

[Atman]

39. "It seems to work." but it really doesn't.

That's the point. That's what all the research has shown. It simply doesn't work, but it makes parents feel good. The kids who are inclined to experiment will still experiment. The cautious ones, and those prone to accept authority anyway, will "behave" as they're told they should.

It's not unlike AA, which no study has shown to be any more effective than any other method of quitting drinking. If you're determined to quit, you'll do anything necessary to remain sober, be it by attending AA or by some other method. With DARE, if you're already a "good kid," you're likely to remain a good kid, and you're just going along with the program because that's what good kids do.

Interesting side note: our son who "flunked" the DARE program did wind up doing a little experimenting post-high school. Nothing serious. But he went on to earn his Bachelors and got a good job by 24.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Once again. In MY school, it works.

We have the data. Our kids are less likely to be be involved in gangs or to be arrested as teenagers. Our DARE program is paid for through a grant from the county and they do follow up yearly to be sure they aren't wasting their money. All evidence seems to point to our DARE officer. All of her schools have good data.

[Fumesucker]

41. So you're saying that an exceptional individual can overcome the inertia of a failed program?

That may be great for your particular school but our nation wastes a great deal of money and energy on this nonsense, to no overall good effect.

And it is indeed nonsense no matter how well it may work in your particular case.

[kydo]

43. I think all the person was saying

was she liked how it worked in that area.

I hate DARE its a joke feel good lets pat everyone on the back for claiming to do something but not really, do something about drugs. Its premise is a farce.

But I like that it brings cops into the classroom for educational purposes. Its getting to know your community thing that I liked about it. The actual DARE program is a scam joke bad idea stupid wast of money.

[Fumesucker]

45. I don't find lies to be particularly educational

Children should not be trained to be entirely trusting of cops, an incident my daughter had with cops on her 17th birthday taught me that hard lesson.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Many kids are only exposed to cops when they see them arresting people they love.

DARE exposes them to cops in a different light. That's a good thing, IMO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Yes. Happens a lot in supposedly 'failed' programs.

I also teach kids who are supposed to fail. And the majority of them do not.

It means don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet.

[Fumesucker]

55. From my point of view that means if your program is exceptionally good

Then if the average is to hold there must be an exceptionally bad one to offset your good one, a program that does considerably more harm than good.

I'm going to go with the scientific data on this one, DARE on the whole is a waste of money and time that could be better spent on other things, I know they filled my daughter's head with a considerable amount of nonsense back in the late 80's and 90's and from what I've seen the program is no more based in reality now than it was then.

I've been reading your posts for a long time, I think you are an exceptional individual and as a grandfather I really appreciate what you do so please don't take my disagreement personally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I didn't like it when my kids were in it either.

I'm not saying it is always a good thing. Just that it seems to work in one school that I am quite familiar with.

I don't believe we should take anecdotal data and apply it widespread to draw a conclusion about the entire program. That's one of our problems in education today. We need to zero in on what individual kids need. And at my school, the DARE program appears to be keeping our kids safe and out of gangs. Note I'm not mentioning drug abuse since I don't have access to that data - don't know if they HAVE that data. But the largest concern we have is gangs. We have used DARE to do what we can to keep our kids out of gangs. And it appears to be working. So I support continuing the program in my school. I write letters to the county commission that awards the grant asking for it to be continued. But I wouldn't dream of writing a letter to Arne Duncan asking him to fund DARE programs nationwide. Except - if our DARE cop could be in charge, I may consider it.

[Atman]

56. The data is based on long-term studies.

Not the number of kids who pass the program, or don't do drugs in school. They looked at whether kids stayed clean and/or stayed out of drugs after graduation and into adulthood. DARE did nothing to change the statistical likelihood for one to abuse. Therefore, it is a waste of money.

Are YOU tracking your students for years, or merely giving anecdotal evidence based upon those you see during school? Big difference.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. 15 years of data

Does that fit your criteria?

[Atman]

63. It doesn't answer the question.

Are you speaking of the fifteen years you've observed the program in school, or is your data based upon observing the DARE "graduates" for 15 years afterwards?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. How could we get data from kids currently enrolled in the program?

What kind of data would that be? Anecdotal? Self-reported?

I already explained this. Because the program is funded by a grant, data is collected to follow up on kids who were enrolled. Fewer are involved in gangs and fewer are arrested as teenagers. The data is disaggregated by school and school district.

[Atman]

33. But woe to the politician who votes against funding it.

It's really a quite brilliant scam, at that. Would you want to be the politician running against "drug education?"

Funny story: many years ago, our then fourth grade son heard my wife and I discussing the sham of DARE at the dinner table. A few weeks later we received a rather concerned call from his school principal. He was the only child in the fourth grade who would not be taking part in the DARE awards ceremony, as he refused to answer any of the questions on the written test given at the end of the program. He told his instructors that it was proven not to work, and therefore it wasn't worth his time to take the test. That's my boy!

[Fumesucker]

42. So what did the principal have to say about the situation?

That's really a funny story, I had to deprogram my own daughter back in the late 80's from some of the crap they were teaching in the DARE program in her school.

I did tell her not to discuss it with others, those who disagree with authority don't do well in school here and my daughter is quite outspoken, always has been.

[Atman]

47. He was very popular with the teachers.

Lucky for him. Cute, an artist with a great personality. As you did with your daughter, we advised him to go along. But then we refused to allow him to participate in the child fingerprinting campaign, and had to explain, once again, that sometimes you need to speak up against nonsense.

Anyway, the principal wound up giving him a special recommendation to the city's new Visual & Performing Arts magnet school gifted program. Unfortunately, while he was strong on tests, not so much with homework, and fare as well once moving on to an inner city high school. He didn't have enough credits to graduate, so he dropped out, got a GED, then got his Bachelors in just two years by going to school 24/7.

As you pointed out to proud2blib, there are always exceptions when you're dealing with exceptional people. That doesn't mean DARE isn't a waste of money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. DARE officers aren't there every day.

Ours is in our building one day a week for 9 weeks. That's all.

[muddrunner17]

25. Probably become complacent and unprepared for an actual event.

[HereSince1628]

34. I can't imagine doing unannounced drills to keep the LEO attentive, either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Principals will ask them to deal with unruly kids.

That's what they'll do.

And no, this teacher doesn't like that idea at all.

[ksoze]

30. Columbine had an armed Sheriff and VA Tech had armed Police.

Will not work.

[BeyondGeography]

31. Think about sex

[SummerSnow]

54. think about sex..

and force a student into a sexual relationship through fear.He has a gun.Hired and armed rapist. Lets not forget an armed teacher who might use this to rape a student.

[kydo]

35. The armed guards would also be bored

at church and mall detail would suck.

Also can we please stop calling these supposed security details cops? The nra and the nut jobs that are suggesting this insane idea don't want cops or law enforcement, they want armed personal like the people that guard high security military bases and prisons to set up perimeters around schools thus turning our schools into occupied war zones.

The douche from the nra did mention money and banks. But money guards last time I looked carry firearms, (generally not assault military style rifles), wear bullet prove vests and ride around in armored trucks.

Me thinks if the nra and many other really stupid people want all of us to be like the people that deliver money to banks, armed, in pairs, wearing bullet proof clothing, riding in armored vehicles to our gated communities, that each individually have their own adt type home security system, and a gun for each person in their household.

Um no thanks to that type of lifestyle I'd rather be shot dead then be forced to live like that. (no pun)

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. The same thing bored guards/cops do at gov't buildings, courthouses, banks, etc.

Having a boring job is nothing new. I see people sleeping on guard duty often.

[MADem]

44. Flirt with the teachers and office staff?

Tease the janitors?

Do his homework from his part time college classes?

Skateboard in the hallways?

[jsr]

46. Excellent question.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

48. We have one in our school on a permanent basis

we never see him. He's always in his office. I have never seen him patrol the school. The only time I've seen a cop patrol the school is when he is off sick.

[BlueStreak]

53. We really need one armed cop at every entrance at minimum.

If you have one armed cop for a building with 10 entrances, the perp will simply break in to the part of the school where the cop isn't.

And for this to be effective, considering that Brother Wayne wants to make sure the killers have military hardware, then our good cops guarding every entrance need to be armed with grenade launchers, and maybe some chemical agents as well.

And to make sure we have enough firepower, we need to develop the technology for a school guard to push one button that will trigger the National Guard to fly over and drop cluster bombs on the school.

Yeah, I think that should do it.

[lbrtbell]

49. He'll go nuts and kill everybody!!!11!

Good grief, what do you think every cop does, every day? Volunteer for duty in the most dangerous neighborhoods, to alleviate boredom? It's a good day for them, when they don't have to face someone who might kill them.

Police work is 95% boredom. Paperwork, stakeouts, patrolling. It's not a constant shoot-em-up as portrayed on TV and in movies.

I'm not saying I think every school should have a cop (though security guards would be nice). But I do believe that a police presence could be a good thing for inner-city schools that are plagued with crime. Kids need a safe place to study, so they can make it in this world. It's hard to concentrate when your peers are engaged in dealing drugs and other crime.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. "Mission creep" is exactly right.

[SummerSnow]

52. Bad move...

So if they are suggesting armed cops or guards in school will they be properly trained in dealing with all types of students.Many children have emotional issues and if a student with emotional issues cause s disruption in class I would hate to hear about a armed guard shooting and killing a student cause he thought he was a threat.I see the handwriting on the wall.

[Enrique]

59. guards are not a new concept

to answer your question, all we need to do is look at the innumerable people who currently work as guards.

Maybe some DUers have held such a job.

[ThoughtCriminal]

62. They would have to rotate them

But with 98,000+ schools, they're going to be stuck there on at least 1 out of 5 days.

[Atman]

64. Our city had 43 schools.

One per school, at what pay grade? Springfield, MA (I no longer live there) already went into receivership. Where is the money supposed to come from?

[Nevernose]

65. We have two on campus during school hours

Here's what they do:
Break up fights
Write traffic tickets
Stop truants
Look for drug use on campus
Handle strangers on campus that aren't near the front office.
Handle thefts
Occasionally take care of severely disruptive students
Provide first aid, CPR, and aed
Gang interventions and intelligence
Handle most weapons cases (though I usually take care of knives myself, and personally have taken one gun away from s student).
All that, plus we have two unarmed hall monitors. The cops are not only POST 1&2 certified, they're generally experts at dealing with children.

My wife's school has 200 kids. Two school police on campus at all times. Desks for metro, metro gang unit, north Las Vegas pd, Henderson pd, city Marshall, metro gang unit, and once the tribal police chased an armed gunman into campus. Those two school cops work all freak ing day long.

[dionysus]

67. we already have cop in the schools here because the STUDENTS are known to bring weapons into the

school from time to time.

meanwhile where i grew up a cop or armed guard in the school would be pointless.

[knitter4democracy]

68. Trust me, they won't be bored. We never have enough staff.

The school I worked in with one, that guy was seriously busy. He did patrols, he dealt with kids with drugs, he dealt with truancy big-time, he did cafeteria duty every day so one of us teachers wouldn't have to, he went to all the main sporting events and many of the not-as-popular ones, he often unlocked stuff for us when we couldn't find someone with the keys, and he spent a lot of time developing relationships with kids so they would go to him with anything important. Good guy, actually, and we were lucky to have him. Kids often forgot he was a real cop, though, and would confess stuff to him he'd have to do something about and then complain that he shouldn't have said anything.

If we'd had a bad cop, though, that would have been hellish.

[coalition_unwilling]

69. We need to put a teacher in every gun store - n/t