"We have to arm the firefighters!!" in 3...2...1...

[WilliamPitt]

2 firefighters killed, residents being searched and evacuated
9:56 AM, Dec 24, 2012

At least two Webster firefighters are dead, and three houses on Lake Road continue to burn after a gunman open fired on firefighters who responded to an early morning fire.

There are no active shooters at the scene, according to a news conference held by Sheriff Patrick O’Flynn.

The fire broke out at 5:45 a.m. at 191 Lake Road on the Irondequoit Bay side of the street.

The gunman open fired on the first firefighters to respond, striking one in the backside. Strong Memorial Hospital confirmed another firefighter was being treated, but it is not clear if he was shot or injured in the fire.

The rest: http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20121224/NEWS01/312240026/webster-shooting?odyssey=mod&nclick_check=1

P.S. It was an assault rifle.

Merry fucking Christmas.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Rec'd, because the LaPierre chorus will be sung...

...and the shame that comes to those singing it should be instantaneous.

[JaneyVee]

2. 2nd Amendment Freedumb

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I just read 2 firefighters have died. Is that true?

How sad.

[bettyellen]

5. I read two died, hopefully one is the shooter.

[JaneyVee]

7. 4 shot. 2 firefighters dead. Terrible.

[99Forever]

4. If only...

... there were heavily armed guards in body amour on every firetruck...

[AllyCat]

8. Hey, in addition to the heavy gear firefighters already wear

they could add bullet-proof vests to the mix! Wouldn't that solve the problem without blaming the poor, innocent guns.

[99Forever]

10. Sure would, but ...

... better make it full body armor for the firefighters too and an AR15 strapped over their shoulder. Can't take any chances!

[RC]

21. Like that'll work really well, when the heat of the fire set off the ammo.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. Just what I was thinking--

Wow, what a thrill--running into a fire carrying explosive munitions…

[99Forever]

53. Did I really need to put one of these...

... on my replies in this thread?

Sorry, I thought such would have made me Captain Obvious.

[ShadesOfBlue]

6. good grief

This country needs serious help.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

26. Yes, yes it does.

But we have a long, violent history, from which we do not seem to be learning.

[tradecenter]

9. Most State Fire Marshal's in the country are armed.

They are POST certified and are able to make arrests. Most are firefighters who came up the ladder and became the law enforcement side of the Fire Service.
But arming regular firefighters? We've got enough on our plates without having to worry about carrying a gun for protection, but if things don't change in this country, it may just come to this.

[kestrel91316]

43. Yeah. Because GAWD FORBID we crack down on the gun owner side of

the equation.

[tradecenter]

48. Has nothing to do with it.

The State Fire Marshal's go after dangerous people, like arsonist's who can be bomb makers, fire starters and the like. They aren't law enforcement officers in the traditional sense, although they do have to go through the POST course, they are the police officers of the Fire Service with full police powers.

[RetroLounge]

55. These were volunteer fire fighters

Take your gun-apologist crap elsewhere



RL

[tradecenter]

62. Why are you calling me a gun apologist?

I realize they were volunteer firefighters, I was at one time also. All I stated was that most State Fire Marshal's are armed also, which is fact.
Where have I said that firefighters should be armed?
Take your insults elsewhere please.

[RetroLounge]

63. and how many State Fire Marshalls were on scene?

So whatever point you are trying to make = fail.

RL

[tradecenter]

64. Some one said that maybe firefighters should be armed

and I responded by saying that State Fire Marshal's are armed and most are firefighters that went into the LE side of the Fire Service. I'm not apologizing for anything.
Geez, take a chill pill, after all, it is christmas eve.
Merry Christmas.

[Zoeisright]

69. Yeah, it's Christmas Eve.

And TWO MORE people are dead in this country because of fucking guns. You know what you can do with your chill pill.

[tradecenter]

70. I really feel sorry for you.

The hatred you carry for people you don't even know must be burning you out. I carry no ill will towards you.
I have to work tomorrow, so you have a peace filled night and a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[Purveyor]

11. Our local township fire department combined with our police so all of our firefighters are also

police officers. They are called 'Public Safety Officers'.

I was quite skeptical of the merge when it took place some years ago but it has worked out quite well actually.

[A Simple Game]

29. So if I want to rob a bank, I should start a fire on the other side of town first? n/t

[cantbeserious]

12. Disgusting - Repeal The 2nd Amendment Now - Outlaw All Firearms

eom

[warrior1]

13. have they found the shooter?

[Lokey]

14. One of firefighters was also a cop

Absolutely effin ridiculous. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[Pachamama]

15. This is now my official "Put a Fork In Me" thread....

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. On a serious note

This is why I wore body armor as a medic.

Not that it would protect me for this shit, or wear it while fire fighting.

Hooray! Chameleon armor for firefighters and moar gunz.

[riverbendviewgal]

22. Who pays for this body armor.

Will this reduce volunteers for firefighting.

My boyfriend is a volunteer firefighter for 25 years....I can see his dedication on every call he takes 24/7

Up here in Canada I think this is unheard of.....I checked 12 pages of google and nothing like this has happened all of Canada.


God help America.

America just may be heading to civil war.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I dd

And this was in Mexico, due to the Cartels. I just did it in one of the most dangerous cities for a while.

Young and indestructible comes to mind.

I expected to see this due to the war on drugs in large urban fire departments. Los Angeles issues it to it's medics when responding to the shooting gallery. This was a small department.

FYI the last wild fire I covered was started by gunz, and it was never confirmed, that cal-fire got shot at.

[zappaman]

60. You are a true hero

for not only being a marine, but being a firefighter, first responder, EMT, and cop.
I don't think anyone here has been in as much danger as you, and I salute you for it!
You are truly the gem of DU!
Have a nice Xmas!

[riverbendviewgal]

17. It was 5:30 am in the morning. - dark out

they were shot in the back....

I just watched the live newscasts..they are not reporting who the shooter was or what kind of gun...THey won't say.

I did note that one of the responders was wounded by scrapel...Can you get scrapel wound from a regular hunting rifle ?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yes

That is the short answer.

More guns...that is the answer obviously.

[In_The_Wind]

18. One. More. Time. ~ No citizen should own an assault rifle.

[JohnnyRingo]

20. This is just crazy

I don't know if we're seeing copycat shooters or if the whole country is driving off the mental and the fiscal cliff at the same time, but we have to find out why- as a nation- unprovoked shootings are becoming epidemic.

It doesn't matter to me that it was an assault rifle- any gun is equally suitable when taking potshots at firemen, but there has to be a reason for the relatively sharp increase in random shootings. Though I'm often sharply criticized here for owning a couple pistols, I don't object to a ban on assault rifle production and common sense regulations with federal background checks. It won't affect me. I also agree that flea markets without paper trails are no place to purchase a gun. I imagine most, if not all, reputable brick & morter gun dealers agree.

I think it would be a good idea to refund the mental institutes closed under the Reagan administration. Their position at the time was that "we have prisons for that", but unfortunately that means a psycho has to commit a crime before we warehouse them in a prison. By then, it's too late.

At least we used to know where these disturbed individuals were, and they were kept away from sharp objects and firearms. Many could eventually be returned to society after their problems were sorted out. It's hard to argue that today's shooter was in any way mentally balanced, but why are we seeing a recent increase in such incidents?

[A Simple Game]

31. Depression often gets worse during the holidays. Many people reach their tipping point. n/t

[grantcart]

34. high capacity clips significantly change the equation.

[JohnnyRingo]

57. That's quite true to a point.

But what do you call hi-cap? Most semi-auto rifles come standard with seven to ten round mags. Extended magazines usually go to 30 rounds. Beyond that capacity they tend to jam and are unreliable.

Ten unexpected rapid fire shots would have easily caused the havoc and deaths we saw today, and it only takes a couple seconds to eject a magazine and insert a new fully loaded one. Those couple of seconds could lower the body count slightly, but no one I know would rush a shooter during that period of time unless they're face to face. Any sane person would be headed the other way.

Personally I don't mind at all if they stop production of the so called "banana clips", because owning only a couple antique pistols, it won't affect me, but that still leaves millions upon millions of them still in the public's hands. No one knows where they are since they never had to be registered, and expecting people voluntarily turn them in seems something of a fantasy. Still, there's no real world reason to own one other than a belief that they make an assault rifle look more military. That's why most honest people buy them.

Ban the extended magazines if anyone thinks it helps, but let's find the root cause of these shootings. It can't be a simple case of ownership, or collectors who own dozens of firearms would be doing most of the killing. As it is, they aren't. Most seem to just go out and buy the ordinance they need at WalMart before hatching their insane plot.

Perhaps Fox News and hate radio is inspiring these people by constantly bombarding them with a message that they have to take action right now. Certainly the recent increase in cases of random mass shootings have dovetailed nicely with the rise in popularity of such media personalities. Others are just complete mental failures who won't find help until they kill someone.

I predict that one day one of these killers are going to be taken alive and cite something specific that Hannity or Limbaugh said as their inspiration. The ensuing civil lawsuits will change the voice of AM radio and Fox News forever, and leave the world a better place.

[beac]

41. All of the above and Fox News has whipped 30-some percent of the population

into believing in the Obamaocalypse.

[JohnnyRingo]

49. You make a good point

Anyone who watches the evening version of Fox News entertainment is certain Obama et al have destroyed "their" beloved country, and they're just months away from internment in a FEMA camp where they'll slave away producing solar panels and CFC light bulbs.

I used to watch Hannity once in a while when he still had Colmes on the show, and I can attest that the daily bombardment of Democratic Doomsday is indeed maddening. I just wish the perpetrators of this recent spate of random shootings just skip to the inevitable final phase of their sinister plan and spare their innocent victims all the misery.

Perhaps along with responsible and tempered gun legislation we can look into laws governing responsible journalism. At least a disclaimer before the "news" show that lets the viewer know that they're about to hear one man's opinion that may not be based in actual facts. I talk to a fair number of conservatives who spout wild conspiracy theories ranging from mass gun confiscation to Obama's Agenda 21, and when I ask where they learned this, they say "it was on the news". Actually, it wasn't.

[toby jo]

68. Responsible journalism is hugely important.

Hate radio controls these people - more and more I wonder if they'll lead them right into violence. They've sure taken them right up to the door.

There are men I work with who are straight mentally incompetent in discussing points of any issue. It's like a brainwashed cult got a hold of them - and I'm talking business owners, not kids.

[AAO]

54. How about an ownership limit of 1 rifle and 1 handgun per citizen.

Everything must be registered. When you want a new firearm, you must at the same time (or earlier) dismiss ownership you current weapon. Less guns to sell or steal. No private owner would sell one of their weapons because they are registered and ultimately accounted for and you will be held responsible. If you report a firearm as stolen, you will not be held accountable, but you would not be allowed to replace it, which would encourage people to appropriately lock up their firearms.

This would not violate the 2nd amendment. You would still have the right to "bare arms" as well as to "bear arms".

This would not automatically eliminate the millions of firearms currently in circulation, but it would set a baseline to by attrition eliminate these weapons, and it would give people a much greater incentive to be serious about ownership, and safety.

Bash away all you want, gun defenders. I don't give a rat's ass what you think. Just trying to make you think.

( Johnny - even though I'm responding to your post - the "trying to make you think" part was not intended for you - you seem very thoughtful, and I agree with much of what you said. )

[JohnnyRingo]

59. Most, if not all, of these shootings are not by gun collectors though.

It seems most of them hatch a suicide mission and go to the closest WalMart or gun show and buy the weapons they need. If volume was indeed a factor, life insurance companies would ask specifically how many guns an applicant owns. They don't do that, and they have the statistics.

I lean more toward mandatory federal screening and especially reinstatement of waiting periods. That would stop many who have past and untreated mental problems and prevent many spur of the moment plans for a shooting spree. These murderers always seem to have a new gun instead of one that has been in the home for years. Giving a despondent potential mass shooter time to rethink their final solution may well save a good number of innocent lives. After all, it's hard to legitimately explain why you absolutely have to have a gun in the next couple hours.

Unfortunately, the NRA disagrees, and thanks for acknowledging what I believe is a moderate view for a solution that is at least workable and within the constitution, as opposed to those who think we can simply "round up all 300 million guns and throw them in the ocean", or what I call an "instant revolution" that I believe would rack up more civilian fatalities than all the mass shootings in history combined.

Common sense gun laws weren't softened in a week, and neither will reinstating them, but we have to head in that direction.

[AAO]

67. The problem with all this mental health business is that it all happens after the fact

How many time have we heard, "he seemed so normal, such a nice guy, kind of kept to himself, but was very polite...". Until he snapped! Many of the people that don't seek help with mental problems are totally unaware they have those problems. All they know is the craziness that has taken them over. This is then their reality, which conflicts in ugly ways with the normal reality most of us deal with daily.

[Chorophyll]

23. Just keep telling yourself: mental health registries and video games, mental health registries and

video games.

Fa la la la la.

[Cosmocat]

36. well

it is just beyond the pale to suggest that guns play ANY role in gun violence ...

[ReRe]

25. It's pretty damn bad when....

K&R

....one can't even heal from one but there is another... on Christmas fucking Eve! And another assault rifle. We now need a Mental Census. Every year, not just every decade!

[morningfog]

27. I do have to wonder about the gun nuts tipping point.

I have a feeling most of those still clinging to anti-regulation after Newtown were not parents. It seems that many parent gun owners changed or softened their position after Newtown. I know several, myself included, who voluntarily surrendered all guns in the aftermath.

There were still plenty clinging to the idea that there is no gun problem. We now have firefighters being shot. I suspect some working class folks, union members, family-focused types will fine this is their tipping point.

There are plenty though, who will never change. Regardless of how senseless the killing, regardless of the body count, regardless of the victims. They are sick. I mean, something is wrong with them. They lack something the rest of humanity has. Empathy, respect for themselves and life, or something. It is sad. We all lose due to a loud obstinate minority.

[mzmolly]

28. "P.S. It was an assault rifle."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

30. Well, after the Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting we obviously have to arm

every guru, reverend, rabbi, priest, nun, and church choir. Yeah, that's the ticket, hold communion at gunpoint.

[Joey Liberal]

32. Merry Christmas, NRA

I would type something really insulting about the NRA, but a DU jury would simply delete it ....

[Ikonoklast]

66. Fuck The NRA.

Fuck the NRA with a pineapple.

[sellitman]

33. People kill firefighters, not guns silly.

Or so they will say...

[WhoIsNumberNone]

35. What's your rationale for shooting at firefighters?

Must be an anti-union thing...

[workinclasszero]

37. Firemen/EMT's and elementary school kids all gotta die

So the NRA freaks can get wood with their weapons of mass destruction..aka assault weapons.

[underpants]

38. I posted the same basic thing on the LBN thread

Merry Christmas Will.

[Thav]

39. The NRA has issued a statement

saying to provide meaningful movement on the matter of gun violence, especially in the tragedy of this shooting, they will place an armed guard by every fire fighter to protect them.

[pansypoo53219]

40. random act of evil. but not random at all i am sure.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

42. Ya know,...If you stop to think about it,...

The gun nuts whole argument is they want the power to take over the country if they disapprove of the government.

Now I ask you,....do you REALLY want THEM to end up in charge?

[Dems to Win]

44. They died to protect the Second Amendment.

[SoapBox]

45. "We have to arm the firefighters!!"

My thoughts exactly.

NRA...enabling killers daily.

[sanatanadharma]

46. The gunners are afraid...

...that their guns will be confiscated before they get a chance to experience the trill of the kill.

[Throckmorton]

47. Is it USA now a failed state?

Is the second civil war upon us?

[NewJeffCT]

50. already said it - use tanks instead of fire trucks

attach a hose to the cannon and you're all set. If they start shooting, just run them over with your tank.

[d_b]

51. armed guards at every house fire

[RetroLounge]

56. The gun humpers aren't here in this thread yet

Once they finish humping their assault rifles they'll be right over to defend shooting firefighters.

Guns don't kill firefighters, people with guns kill firefighters.

RL

[Dems to Win]

58. Kevlar burkas for all! All the time, everywhere!

We must armor ourselves so they can be armed.

[DonCoquixote]

61. The elephant in the room

Namely that the mass media has been rewarding these people with attention, and in turn, the media has more stuff to wax poetic on, and shit out sound bites to fertilize campaigns.

And no, I do not mean Hollywood or Video Games,

I mean the so called journalists!

[eyewall]

65. Which "well regulated Militia" did this murderer belong to?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

71. And their were cops with them. You know, good guys with guns.

And now those cops will have to live with the pain of knowing that thay could not stop the guy before 2 firefighters died. They will suffer just like the cops at Newtown are.
So you want to try that little speach again NRA?