If only she had been armed and trained...

[PeaceNikki]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/184951501.html

Husband charged in murder of Wauwatosa Police officer

MILWAUKEE - The Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office filed one count of First Degree Intentional Homicide against Benjamin Sebena in the murder of his wife, Wauwatosa Police officer Jennifer Sebena, early Christmas Eve morning.

Sebena, 30, appeared in court Thursday and bail was set at $1 million.

According to a criminal complaint, Sebena admitted to "stalking his wife for several days" because "he had been jealous of other men with regards to his wife."

On December 24th, he "laid in wait for her in the area of [the Wauwatosa Fire Department]. He waited for several hours."

"On seeing her squad car, he came up and began to shoot her after she emerged from her break in the fire department. He said she moved like she was reaching for her firearm. He then took her gun from her holster. He then shot her in the face with her service weapon three or four times. "

[jody]

1. OK Skinner, after your amnesty allowing RKBA topics in GD and seeing the trash it produces I agree

with putting them in the Gun Control & RKBA (Group).

However, the Sandy Hook Tragedy has generated thousands of posts from DUers who know zero about the topic.

When you and the admins discuss this topic, which will be super-hot when the next Democratic Party Platform is written, please consider ways to acknowledge its importance as one of the most divisive, polarizing political issues that divide voters and even we Democrats.

We DUers who regularly post in the Gun Control & RKBA (Group) may not be able to help find solutions to the problem but as a minimum we can help reduce ignorance about it.

[PeaceNikki]

3. Your concern is noted, jody.

[Chan790]

7. I was hoping the amnesty to post in GD about Newtown...

would lead to a few more of our faux-Dem gunnutters getting the axe.

Alas, we're still stuck with them.

[jody]

10. Please post your personal definition of "faux-Dem gunnutters". nt

[Chan790]

22. I think that one is self-evident.

People who are not really Democrats and have extremist-views on RKBA.

(Did I accuse you? Do you feel guilty? As my grandmother told me as a young boy: )

"So he called you an moron? Are you a moron? Then why do you care? If a label bothers you, it probably fits."

[Indydem]

38. What is an "extremist-views on RKBA"

And how does that mesh with the party position?

"Not really Democrats?"

Do you get to make that determination? Are you the all father of Democrats who gets to decide if the rest of us are worthy?

[TheMadMonk]

85. Pretty simple really: Insistence on no/minimal regulation;

Quick to blame everything but guns for problems/events in which guns are central.

Certain that more guns in the "right" hands is the only viable response to guns in the "wrong" hands.

And "Not really Democrats", because so many gungeoneers have repeatedly stated that they pretty much don't give a shit for any opinion on guns except their own.

YOU MAKE THAT DETERMINATION FOR YOURSELVES:
With ever offer of armed insurection. (Funny that you'll offer that in defence of your guns, but not your fellow countrymen.)
With every excuse as to why guns (and possession thereof) should not be the subject of debate, since 2A settles those questions for all eternity.
And even with the view that some of you have expressed, that forcing a confrontation doesn't negate "Stand your ground laws.", that provoking someone to threaten your life, is legal grounds for killing them. That a man with a gun is somehow better or more deserving of life than one without.

Hell that last comes through with every ridiculous assertion of: "If they only had a gun of their own."

[jody]

51. "yo mama" trash talk doesn't bother me. Just trying to determine if you are one of the latest

batch of trolls and disruptors to invade DU like some noxious malady. Goodbye

[hrmjustin]

75. I see you upset a few here. Thank you.

[whistler162]

44. Quite simple... anyone that doesn't agree <username>

on <subject>/

[jody]

61. whistler162 I never cease to be amazed at the eloquence of simplicity. We teach children to read,

write, and speak, BUT NOT TO LISTEN!

It should be no surprise that when a compromise is desperately needed among adults and politicians to prevent another Sandy Hook Tragedy, each side insults and vilifies the other but no one listens.

; "And it repented the LORD that she/he had made man on the earth, and it grieved her/him at her/his heart."

[Indydem]

19. Perhaps you should learn what the party supports.

"We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we
will preserve Americans’ Second Amendment right to own and use firearms."

That is the PARTY PLATFORM

Which means anything contrary to it is Anti-Democrat and a terms of service violation.

Some of the people on DU need to be a little more accepting of divergent opinion.

[PeaceNikki]

20. You forgot the rest...

We understand the terrible consequences of gun violence; it serves as a reminder that life is fragile, and our time here is limited and precious. We believe in an honest, open national conversation about firearms. We can focus on effective enforcement of existing laws, especially strengthening our background check system, and we can work together to enact commonsense improvements—like reinstating the assault weapons ban and closing the gun show loophole—so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.

[Indydem]

23. That does not include:

Repeal the second amendment
Mandatory buybacks
Elimination of guns

So lets have "an honest, open national conversation about firearms."

You aren't going to find that here, because so many DU members are anti-firearms and think owning a gun or supporting gun rights is tantamount to being a republican or personally murdering children.

[PeaceNikki]

25. Did *I* fucking say any of those things?

[Indydem]

28. Not directly, perhaps.

But your OP makes no other sense otherwise.

HE STOLE A POLICE OFFICERS GUN OUT OF HER HOLSTER AND SHOT HER WITH IT.

Therefore, the only way to have stopped this murder would have been to disarm the police officer.

[PeaceNikki]

30. Wow... you gun owners *are* paranoid.

[Indydem]

32. Then what is the solution?

Elaborate.

[PeaceNikki]

35. I don't recall claiming to have a solution. Please show me where I have.

I do know that we need to increase mental health, especially for vets, and decrease availability of firearms.

And I assure you, more guns and more vets is not part of the equation.

[Indydem]

39. "decrease availability of firearms"

Yep. That's what I thought.

[PeaceNikki]

40. Grab 'em, son!!

[PeaceNikki]

42. Yes. To people like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Azana_Spa_shootings

and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

and the 142 guns possessed by the killers in the masss hootings, more than three quarters of which were obtained legally.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

And the hundreds every year who choose suicide because there's a gun fucking handy.

Yes... DECREASE THE FUCKING AVAILABILITY.

[TorchTheWitch]

52. he shot her with his own gun first

That's how he was able to get her police issued firearm away from her and shoot her some more.

No need to make up new facts just to support a position.

[bettyellen]

77. so now you're just making up shit? the vast majority here are for sensibly increasing gun regulation

closing the "gun show"/ private sale loop hole, tighter registration procedures and back round checks, and limits on magazines.
But we all know you know that already, we've seen you interact with these people. You're not fooling anyone saying most people want to take your guns away. That's why you get accused of spewing NRA nonsense. Because it;s exactly what they say.

But you and a dozen others are pretending people want a total ban AND that they people here imagine this will be an immediate cure all. You pretend people here don't care about anything but blaming weapons and taking them away from people, and don't care about other causes of crime. This is complete bullshit, and you all know it.

[shintao]

49. Glue on ya dude

You act like Liberals don't like guns, don't go to war and butcher the enemy to keep you safe. Then you want us to be booted because we see the sense in guns and you don't? You elect Dems, and I would guess everyone of them has a conceal carry permit along with their armed guards, so you are being a bit hypocritical here. LOL!

[jody]

21. PeaceNikki, please accept my apology. I reached my frustration limit, something triggered it.

I thought about personally deleting it but it may serve some purpose as an audit trail.

[PeaceNikki]

27. I get that you're pissed that every shooting is being lauded as a statement for gun control.

But you know what? Many of us are pissed. We have reached our limit and every single solitary case we see and/or are personally touched by hurts. Physically hurts. And we're sick of it. As I said below, this particular case is a sounding board for a few issues:

1) How we create and then care for our vets
2) How we arm civilians
3) Domestic violence -and you could throw gun control in with this topic as well
4) He's a member of a HUGE mega-church and this video is his 'testimony' on how to make a relationship work... FFS. It's chilling to watch.

Guns and domestic violence. Guns and vets with PTSD. Guns and... KILL.

[jody]

36. PeaceNikki I'm a vet, work out ever day with friends who are vets including one from Pearl Harbor,

another who had is 21st birthday on Iwo Jima the day the flag was raised, three with MOH, several with Crosses (one with two), Navy Seals, Green Berets, and more.

I've stood at attention when Taps was played, heard 21 guns fire, and gave a slow-salute to a departed buddy.

Have close relatives with PTSD and lives destroyed, watched a relative in the first wave at Normandy scrape out a living as a quadriplegic and blind and other tales best forgotten.

My frustration was not about the OP, but about the certainty that when the amnesty is lifted OP would be banished to the Gun Control & RKBA (Group).

Yes, you're right, I'm pissed but not about the OP topic.

[Control-Z]

5. What does your post have to do with the OP?

I'm not following.

[jody]

8. Mea culpa, perhaps only DU regulars in the Gun Control & RKBA (Group) understand. nt

[Chorophyll]

14. That's a non-answer.

Please share your expertise, as a gun-owner, on THIS particular post.

[jody]

16. That's all I have to say about that. nt

[PeaceNikki]

17. good. you should do that more.

[Chorophyll]

18. Works for me.

[TorchTheWitch]

54. nothing

Just another excuse to interrupt a thread with the perpetual pro/anti gun shit fest in the main forums instead of them only polluting their own room here.

[Chorophyll]

13. What do we need to know about the topic other than

American people keep shooting other American people, every single day?

What do you know about this phenomenon that I don't?

What's your opinion on this *particular* topic? What do you know about a police officer being stalked and shot by her abusive husband that I don't know, or that PeaceNikki doesn't know?

Seriously, what makes you an authority on *this* post?

[jody]

26. Before Skinner's amnesty OP would have been exiled and ostracized to the Gun Control & RKBA (Group).

That group is vilified and called the Gungeon and not avoided bu all who bring insults and ignorance to fight facts.

I'm not an authority on the OP topic but I do resent it being limited to the RKBA group and not receiving the discussion it deserves.

[Chorophyll]

33. But... so it's here in GD and you're commenting on it.

So it's not limited to RKBA. So... what's the problem?

[jody]

37. See #36 nt

[Chorophyll]

43. Saw it. Thank you for your service.

Sincerely.

Other than that, I'm still not sure what the problem is.

[PeaceNikki]

45. The problem was the 'headline' I chose.

The RTKBA people are pissed that every gun death is being turned into a case for gun control. They're scared.

[jody]

56. "They're scared"! Not in the least. I compete at the national/world level with those from the

highest level of business, government, and professions.

Not one, no not one, is afraid of an all-out confrontation over requiring our federal government to protect all rights that SCOTUS has said pre-exist our Constitution and do not depend upon it.

PA(1776) & VT (1777) declared those rights to be natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable.

Each right, whether enumerated in the First, Second, Fourth Amendments, et al or unenumerated but protected by the Ninth is supposed to be protected by Government.

No right is more important than another and none less.

It just happens that those who have drawn a line in the sand over the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense when government is not obligated to protect an individual unless in custody, fight for all rights for all people.

You and others may disagree on whether there is or is not a threat to replace our traditional form of constitutional democracy guaranteeing a republican form of government to each state with a corporate state but others believe there is a threat.

If you disagree then salute and repeat

[tledford]

69. Yup, but I would clarify by stating that every gun death *IS* a case for gun control.

It doesn't have to be turned into one.

[jody]

47. Thanks and to repeat, I don't have a problem with the OP, just that it would be banished to

Gun Control & RKBA (Group)

Please don't misconstrue anything I said.

In no way am I a hero, but I know and have known many who are and we're all brothers in arms having once obeyed orders from our Commander in Chief, freely elected by We the People.

How can the drone pilot, possibly operating from Nellis AFB NV, live with himself after discovering he followed orders to kill a target he later was told was a "two legged dog", apparently military jargon for Sandy Hook age children in other countries.

Drone targets declared by our Commander in Chief to be deadly terrorists if they appear on video screens to be older than 18 or 15 or 12 or whatever.

With foreign policies like that, how can any other nation respect us?

How can we continue to respect ourselves?

When the atomic bomb detonated, Oppenheimer quoted a phrase from Hindu scripture in the Bhagavadgita that I paraphrase, "We have become death"

[Hoyt]

53. Where it would be buried. Time to quit burying things NRA finds "offensive."

[HereSince1628]

55. We should know that a month ago another cop knew he had held a gun to her head

TWO cops knew this!

He had PTSD and the threat suggests he was also irrationally afraid of being abandoned by her.

Wauwatosa is about 3.5 miles from a large VA hospital with a large psych-trauma unit, and facilities for both in-patient and intensive out-patient and psych day-care service

The Wauwatosa police Dept is about 1 1/2 miles from the Milwaukee Mental Health Facility which will could have held him in involuntary detention.

We should know something really went wrong after the now dead cop told a co-worker.

[Chorophyll]

67. Wow. This story is really a chain of failure.

It just didn't have to happen.

[HereSince1628]

68. Too many times it's like this. The Aurora Theater killers shrink suspected Holmes was dangerous

when he left the campus as a student, she discontinued her follow through...

And I guess one time that could be prevented feels like "too many"

[bettyellen]

72. oh lord, you're just embarrassing yourself now.

Although I think you're right, the RKBA may not be able to help. God knows, most of you all don't want to.
Shameless bullshit, and everyone except for your gunner buddies sees right through it.

[PDJane]

2. I am going to respectfully point out that the only thing you have to know about guns,

especially high capacity guns and ammo clips, is that they are capable of killing more than 20 people, most of them children, in a few minutes. The only real thing that matters is that even a trained person used to carrying can't always save themselves. More guns means less safety, especially for children and women, the most usual victims of abuse.

Educating people on the esoterica of guns and so on isn't going to improve safety one damn bit.

[Paladin]

12. Absolutely True.

And I say that as a person who once was a Gun Enthusiast and as somebody who knows the terminology. You do not have to know the precise weight of a trigger housing for an AK-47 to know that what happened in Connecticut was a preventable travesty. Don't let the gun obsessives tell you anything different.

Here's something to ponder: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) hasn't had a Director in six years. The ATF is the federal government's primary check on the nation's gun trade---and it's been without a leader for six years. Wonder why that is?

[bongbong]

57. It's the NRA

> d it's been without a leader for six years. Wonder why that is?

Widely acknowledged to be because of NRA pressure.

[Paladin]

62. We Need To Spread The Word About The ATF Vacancy.

That is a shameful situation, along with a lot of other shameful things regarding guns right now.

[sanatanadharma]

80. Thank you PDJane

I am respectfully adding the point that the only thing everyone needs know about guns is:

Guns are for killing.
Hunting is killing.
Target shooting is practice to be ready to use the gun for its purpose.
Self-defense is being ready to kill or threaten to kill.
Collecting is fascination with the "cool tool that kills".
2nd amendment is for state sponsored killing because they 'gots lots' of guns (sic)

[reteachinwi]

4. :(

Well made, soul saddening, point.

[PeaceNikki]

6. Honestly, there are several points to be had from this story:

1) How we create and then care for our vets
2) How we arm civilians
3) Domestic violence -and you could throw gun control in with this topic as well
4) He's a member of a HUGE mega-church and this video is his 'testimony' on how to make a relationship work... FFS. It's chilling to watch.

This is a huge story locally. And it's very sad. This happened in the community I grew up in.

It's terrible

[Chorophyll]

9. There is a direct connection between domestic violence and many, many gun deaths

in this country. In fact, until all the details were in on the Newtown shooting, a couple of news sources speculated (ugh) that it was a domestic dispute that spilled out of the house and into public. Easy mistake to make, because domestic "disputes" ending in gun violence happen every day.

I don't think happy, secure people are that into having guns around. I just don't.

[PeaceNikki]

11. Oh, I know. I know. Here in SE WI, we've had 2 mass shootings this year. Both vets. One was DV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Azana_Spa_shootings

[Chorophyll]

15. Ugh. So many issues to be addressed.

Of course, there are similar issues in other developed nations, but not so many shootings. So maybe, just maybe, there is an answer.

What could it be, I wonder.

[reteachinwi]

48. Had to go to WTMJ

to see the video. Reacting to it is so difficult that it seems impossible. Tears press at my eyelids at the tragic nature of this incident. No answers? Can we undertake a cultural, societal transformation based on a cathartic response to tragedy? Are we capable and mature enough to do that? Can we just keep killing each other?

[HereSince1628]

24. That shooting went down about a 1/2 mile from my room "in town".

The stats really pointed at this.

The local station talked about him on the news on Christmas...the guy had pursued her on the computer from his duty post, and had made a movie that celebrated his pursuit of her for an area megachurch. He also was disabled and suffered PTSD

Sad. First cop ever killed in the history of this suburb of Milw. Less than a year on duty.

[PeaceNikki]

29. And *IN* my hometown. My K-8 school was in the news footage.

yeah...

[HereSince1628]

41. And I think he and I may have both attended the same psych-trauma clinic.

Can't be sure, but I think that's what the picture paints

[TorchTheWitch]

58. what is with that church and it's men only "No Regrets" conference?

And he made a movie CELEBRATING stalking his wife for the church? What, is this some kind of woman hating megachurch or something?

I noticed that in the video he says that it was this "No Regrets" men only thing that church does is where he supposedly found Jesus and learned all about making a relationship work... and he makes a film for the church that proudly displays him stalking his wife, he stalkers her and kills her and then freely admits it to police. Appears he bought into the whole "No Regrets" bit hook line and sinker which scares the shit out of me as to what this church is up to.

[PeaceNikki]

60. It's a large non-denominational megachurch.

Run-of-the-mill "Christians"... varying from born-again to funerals, weddings, major Christian holidays.

[HereSince1628]

63. I only saw the bits of it on local tv news. The link up above doesn't give access

If it did at the time it was posted, the videos been taken down from public viewing.

What I know of it was from the description reporters have made about it. It discussed how he found her on the web apparently while he was overseas, and how he pursued a romantic relationship with her.

I'm too old to make sense of it. Maybe this is what 30 somethings do now. Making a video about my romantic pursuit of my spouse to be shared with members of a church congregation would be an incomprehensible exposure of my most intimate private life.

[the antigun]

34. Dang

That's a tough story to read.

[Enrique]

46. "the only thing..."

[HereSince1628]

50. DAMMIT! Seems she told another officer her killer had threatened her

by holding a gun to her head over a month ago!!!

Two police officers knew he was dangerous a month before this happened!

News is never complete and often not correct but something didn't play out as it should have.

[MH1]

79. It's really, really hard to do anything about a threat like that

Ask about this at any domestic violence shelter.

[HereSince1628]

84. Well I think in WI it can be construed as a Class H felony

The threat was made to coerce her behavior.

Such a threat could have been the basis of a restraining order and considering he was already diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder it wouldn't have been hard to roll that towards a visit from the police for possible involuntary detention...

Perhaps more importantly at a common sense level, if it had been reported to supervisors, they would have had an opportunity to shift her assignments or to partner her up.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. Having a gun is not a guarantee that you will be able to win the fight.

I someone is stalking you and attacks by surprise from ambush, having a gun of your own is not likely to be of any help. But if he screws up the ambush, it might give you a chance to live.

Guns can be very handy in many self-defense situations, but there are no guarantees.

[jody]

64. Not having a gun may guarantee you will lose the fight. Don't carry a spare tire if you don't care

about being prepared for the unthinkable.

[PeaceNikki]

65. Yes, a gun is JUST like a spare tire...

...that can kill things.

[GreenStormCloud]

70. Sometimes the ability to kill is necessary.

My wife is alive because about seven years ago she had her concealed handgun in her tummy pack. She was always first at work and had the combination to the door. The building had been burglarized several times in the past few months. So we both got CHLs. Shortly after she got hers, after she parked her car and was walking towards the door, a strange male emerged from a hiding place behind some trees, rushing at her. The situation, and body language, made it obvious that he intended to make her open the door. He would have had to silence her once he was inside to prevent her from calling 911. Since she, like myself, is a senior citizen, and is also a small frail woman it is doubtful that she would have survived being silenced. She already had her hand in her tummy pack holding the gun so she was able to instantly bring it out. The would be attacker turned and fled.

About a month later the exact same thing happened, but with a different male. He too fled.

After that, she was never bothered again while she worked there. Street criminals exchange information, and the word got out on the street that attacking that little old lady was a good way to get shot. She was left in peace.

[jody]

71. Had an experience where three males with suspicious actions approached my car. Window down and a

Colt 1911 with slide locked back. Males were perhaps five steps away when I hit the slide release.

The noise of a .45 slide closing is very distinctive.

Males froze in place, one whispered to the other two, all three turned, and departed the area.

No words exchanged, no threats made, firearm not displayed, incident not reported to LEO, but it was a law-abiding citizen's exercise of RKBA to defend self.

[GreenStormCloud]

74. To those familiar with it, very distinctive indeed. N/T

[HereSince1628]

66. Police here in Wauwatosa wear bullet resistant vests.

He first shot her in the back and then in the head 5! times at least 3 times in the face.

Horrible to even imagine.

[Taverner]

73. I am sick of the gunhadis always hiding behind that false dichotomy

It's like a parrot, always repeating the same jingoism...

[Deep13]

76. Also, an argument against an all-but-cops gun ban.

In that situation, cop guns would have to go too.

[PeaceNikki]

78. um....He shot her with his gun first.

Also, I never called for a ban in any regard. Very few have.

[Deep13]

81. I'm not suggesting you did.

I have seen some here call for an everything-but-lawful-authority ban, though it is the minority view.

[PeaceNikki]

82. OK, but he still shot her with HIS gun first.

So your argument fails.

[Egalitarian Thug]

83. Exactly. This is an all or why bother proposition. Disarm the nation including the police,

or continue to live with the carnage. Cops kill people every day with little notice and less penalty, and as this story clearly demonstrates, trained LEOs can be killed by others with their own weapons as well. The only way to stop this is to remove firearms from the equation. Until then, whatever is done is a waste of time.