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"Earnings Test" could wipe out entire fields including teaching, counseling, social work, & journalism
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sop
(17,026 posts)
haele
(14,924 posts)If a program's graduates earn less than if they hadn't enrolled, that program shouldn't be eligible for a federal student loan.
Okay, doesn't sound too bad, but...
You have other federal programs out there that encourage professionals and retirees to "pick up the slack" in some careers - like Education (Teach for America ring any bells?). Or the Government can determine that AI can backfill other career paths, meaning you don't need as many actually trained and educated mathematicians, or engineers, or service -including Medical Service - professionals, so who needs a Master's Degree when online Tech Training or Community College can bring an entry level employee up to speed.
My stepdaughter just became a licenced "Certified Behavioral Therapist", which used to require a 3 year Special Education program at a CC or Jr. College, similar to Certified Substitute Teacher. She only had to take 55 hours of Child Development 101 and the legal requirements for certification training; 45 online and 10 hours Red Cross Basic Medical and First Aid training.
I'm not saying she's not capable to do the job, but I'm not sure she has sufficient training and education to recognize when she's in over her head, and since she's working with Autistic and non-verbal kids, it can be really easy to be thrust into deep water - especially dealing with parents who might have different expectations that the employer and school district.
Conclusion added as edit -
Basically, if the Federal Government -the Department of "Labor" working with the Department of "Education", determine that a month or two of tech/familiarization certification training school or an online testing program similar to CLEP is a sufficient substitute for four to six years of education and a degree for an entry level position, that's the way their student loan policy will be enacted.
No more $75k or $150k loans for an engineer or nurse. $5k for a certificate from Trump U that says "yup, you can go apply somewhere now"...
Silent Type
(12,181 posts)aren’t likely to provide a decent income.
“The earnings test they’re proposing says: a degree only gets federal loans if graduates earn more than the average high schooler in their state.”
Not for cutting off loans, but wouldn’t mind a warning like on poison and cigarettes, and maybe some other restrictions.
Dang sure would have helped restrict trump’s fraudulent university and similar ripoffs.
MichMan
(16,401 posts)Colleges might have to cut the cost of tuition if they want to continue to offer those programs.
Wiz Imp
(8,371 posts)
slightlv
(7,128 posts)Go over that list... first, and foremost, these are professions that skew female. They are "helper" positions. They don't skew finance, at least from what I can remember from the list. But social worker? It may be integrated now, but it is historically a female career field, as is teaching.
With all the dismissals of high ranking women from the military, the massive numbers of women stripped of federal service, and now denigrating their professional degree work... I think one thing becomes clear. They want all women at home, barefoot, and pregnant and completely dependent on men again. P2025, people! Just because on the surface it sounds reasonable, never attribute "reasonable" to this administration. There is always an underlying agenda.
Biophilic
(6,306 posts)
Diamond_Dog
(39,305 posts)
AllyCat
(18,399 posts)So rather than pay these highly trained and USEFUL professionals more, let’s make sure we don’t have any by not offering them assistance to go to school.
Might as well stay home and be dumb, indentured servant of a domineering white man.
Were winning!
Cirsium
(3,212 posts)Why should teaching, counseling, social work, & journalism pay more than home making, and why should women need anything more than high school home economic classes?
Cirsium
(3,212 posts)Maybe you forgot the sarcasm tag?
Calling Trump’s policies reasonable is unacceptable. It’s not the first time either.
MichMan
(16,401 posts)If a student wants to borrow $120,000 in loans to pay for a college degree that, based on the salary, makes it impossible to pay back, that's their problem. They will soon learn what ROI means the hard way.
iemanja
(57,194 posts)And there already exist mechanisms to compel people to repay student loans. It's the hardest form of credit to avoid paying. You can default on credit cards without consequence except for your credit score, but not student loans. They garnish your wages.
The result of this Trump policy that you defend is to decimate our medical system and higher ed. Nursing shortages will be chronic, and no one will be able to afford becoming an academic. I guess if you want to make sure only the extremely wealthy have options in life, this is the way to go. It is not, however, a Democratic or democratic value. Then it's not likely that the wealthy will want to become nurses, so the end result will be deaths.
Last time it was your full-throated support for ICE deporting people whose speech you didn't like.
MichMan
(16,401 posts)It is specifically referring to occupations where the average salary is equivalent or less to the average where you only need a HS diploma. According to the data, the average salary for a RN is $100k per year while the average for a HS graduate is $42k or less than half.
If your position is that those earning nursing degrees don't earn more than your typical HS graduate, it doesn't make any sense.
iemanja
(57,194 posts)Trump has downgraded nursing from a "professional" to non-professional employment category and said they aren't eligible for loans.
MichMan
(16,401 posts)
SomewhereInTheMiddle
(600 posts)iemanja
(57,194 posts)SomewhereInTheMiddle
(600 posts)Very discouraging.
Melon
(927 posts)They may exist, but not government funded. This means the degrees all have to have an ROI.
Prairie Gates
(6,918 posts)We know that over the medium to long term, college graduates earn more across many professions, including the ones mentioned here. The earnings test, however, sets an unrealistic timeframe during which one wouldn't make up for the college cost. There is nothing on its face wrong with a loaning body insisting that ROI be considered. But insisting on a timeframe that you know is unrealistic is a backdoor way of spiking the investment in the first place. It's a backdoor defunding of university education. A teacher will more than make up for college costs over 15-20 years, but not over 3-5 years. That's the problem with the BBB's earnings test.
These degrees can also be entry points for higher level degrees that do pay better. In some cases, a 2 year associates degree in nursing can get you into a job, which then may pay your tuition for a higher, better paid degree or specialization. or may cut costs for transferring to a higher level program at a university.
The concept of not investing a lot in degrees that pay poorly is a good one, but not sufficient for making longer-term educational investment decisions.
markodochartaigh
(4,701 posts)The difference in base pay for an rn with a bachelor's in nursing vs. an associates degree is usually about a dollar an hour, in the 80's it was a dime.
Some registered nursing jobs do require a bachelor's, especially management. But usually nursing management doesn't pay a whole lot more until you climb several rungs on the ladder. And if you want to make sure that you are never roped into a management position the best thing to do is stay at the associate's level.
jmbar2
(7,481 posts)A few years ago, her employer started pushing AAs to upgrade. I think it had something to do with improving their accreditation scores. She had a choice between RN and and a Masters for the same investment. Came with a pay bump, but she was already well-paid, so it wasn't a big one.
markodochartaigh
(4,701 posts)The town where I lived had a diploma program, an associate's program, and a bachelor's program. The diploma program was going away, this was in 1981. The associate's program had a 100% pass rate on boards, and the bachelor's program had a pass rate in the 70's and was in constant danger of probation.
In my experience there was little if any difference between bachelor's and associate's degree nurses on the floor, unless you knew someone well you rarely knew which degree they had. The absolute best nurses were the diploma nurses. Always.
The first nurse that I saw actually kill a patient had a master's degree.
And I knew a number of nurses with bachelor's degrees who simply hated patient care, got their master's and went into management. It was good that they were off the floor, but the only reason that they weren't terrible managers is that they were almost never around.
I think that nursing is a job where it is the person, not the degree which matters. But then I think that about a lot of jobs.
KentuckyWoman
(7,362 posts)Ultimately the goal is take economic freedom from women, forcing them into marriages to survive. Remove access to birth control. Make marital rape legal. Take away any rights to the justice system. Turn the clock back.
And they'll do it "in the name of Jesus".
Starbeach
(276 posts)Just a coincidence.
NotHardly
(2,368 posts)
ShazzieB
(22,009 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 25, 2025, 01:02 AM - Edit history (2)
That's what I'd like to know. Do they actually think all married women who work outside the home are doing it just for funsies? As much as I loved my career, I would have gladly taken a year or two off after my daughter was born instead of going back to work after a measly 10 weeks (all I could get off without losing income that was needed to pay the mortgage).
If they think they can force women to stay home no matter what their husband's income is, they're out of their damned minds. Living on one paycheck hasn't been a viable option for a lot of families in years. To keep up with today's rapidly rising costs, especially housing, a family either needs 2 wage earners OR one person making a much higher salary than is attainable for more than a rapidly shrinking minority.
In the supposed "golden days" of the 1950s that those morons lomg for, a man could make enough money to support a family just by working on a factory assembly line without any special skills. But now most of the factories have been deunionized, and only the executives make a comfortably livable income. Everyody else, from the laborers on the factory floor to the office drones, is making barely enough to get by. The shareholders come first, the execs are expected to keep wages as low as possible to maximize profits, and the rich continue to get richer while the poor get poorer and poorer.
In addition to facing the fact that women enjoy having careers just as men do, they need to get a clue that even women who want to stay home won't be able to do it unless a lot of things change.
ColoringFool
(131 posts)ShazzieB
(22,009 posts)There will of course always be women who have no choice but to work to support themselves, their children, etc., just as there always have been.
I was speaking specifically to the point of the Project 25 aim of all married women permanently removing themselves from the workforce and devoting their lives to homemaking, but I probably could have worded it more clearly. In fact, I may just go back and tweak the wording a little!
Warpy
(114,275 posts)If a profession is severely underpaid, one doesn't work to raise the wage to a reasonable level, one simply makes it impossible for anyone to get the education needed to do the job.
Never mind that these are all absolutely necessary jobs, unlike the ones in banking, hedge funds, ad agencies, and I think we can all come up with long lists of jobs that are less vital but much more lavishly paid.
Republicans. We can count on them for shitty priorities ever since Teddy Roosevelt went out of office.
mike_c
(36,867 posts)...there are arguably better ways to achieve them than undergraduate college, or at least more efficient ways. Specialized vocational training comes to mind, at employers' expense. But that still misses the point that if maintaining a college educated population benefits society, then higher education should be free or low cost to support that public good, as it is in many democracies. That goes double for professional fields like STEM fields that usually require postgraduate degrees for entry. This is the richest country in the world, for cryin' out loud!
Personally, I think this whole debate is just another ugly aspect of American anti-intellectualism. "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge, nah nah nah!"
Iris
(16,795 posts)haele
(14,924 posts)Too many "Wunderkinds" and Nepo-babies "Quit College after Two years and made Millions" - through influence, social class, and marketing themselves.
They honestly believe the 80's and 90's movie tropes(that their boomer parents grew up with) in which all you need is a 10 minute musical montage and a wise or wacky mentor, and you can end up being the star of your life making millions - on your own merit.
Totally ignoring the hundreds of thousands of equally talented and deserving people behind the scenes making their prosperity happen.
What's that old saying -
For the want of a nail, a kingdom was lost..."
They're all thinking they can fly whenever they want without the nuts and bolts that need to be maintained supporting them along the way.
Iris
(16,795 posts)haele
(14,924 posts)20 years in the Navy (retired Chief), 30 years of work experience, and the equivalent knowledge of a PE in RF and Networking, but needed a degree to step from topped out Senior Technician to Systems Engineer/Manager.
So, I spent $45k on a BS in Business (IT Program Management), with my Navy schooling and actual work experience cutting about 2 years (~90 credits) of classes off the total 4 year if full time program. 3 to 4 hours of in person class a week, 2 - 3 hours of homework, no weeks off for 3 years...
Easiest degree to get while working full time and raising a family.
And it ended up getting me an immediate promotion with a pay increase of around $20k a year and a lot of ceiling left for more advancement and raises.
About $30k of it was Federal Loans, totaling at around $51k to pay off over 10 years. Two more years to go...sigh.
Puppyjive
(902 posts)Trump is doing this. I want to scream in his face and tell him what an idiot he is.
