The European Plan for Ending the War in Ukraine

[surfered]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2025/11/23/2355181/-Russian-stuff-blowing-up-Trump-s-surrender-plan-goes-from-fait-accompli-to-FUBAR

[Emrys]

1. That's an improvement, but I don't see any way Putin's ready to accept any deal right now,

even the heavily skewed one Witkoff and Vance supposedly cooked up.

He may stall for time by play-acting some sort of negotiations in response, but he can't afford for the war to end.

[Disaffected]

2. 16 and 17 are unacceptable IMO

All occupied Ukrainian territory must be returned.

And how could this possibly be successfully "negotiated" after a full and permanent ceasefire? I would guess the chances of Russia voluntarily giving up occupied territory are about the same as Trump ordering the release of the Epstein files.

[drray23]

4. This is something Zelensky has proposed

He said he would consider that to end the war.

[Disaffected]

6. OK, I was not aware of that.

But, the problem remains - how do you get the Russians to vacate the occupied territory if not by continuing military action? I would be very surprised they would do it as a result of negotiation. I hope Zelensky doesn't sell the farm here....

[drray23]

8. So what zelinsky said is that he wants to be sure

That this territory is not officially given to Russia but can be contested later via other means. For example, sanctions and the like.
He said he would prefer of course to get it back outright but he was willing to accept that compromise if other conditions are met to stop the war.

[Disaffected]

10. OK, maybe there is something there.

Other means could also include I suppose renewed military action which would however be unlikely but more likely to work IMO than sanctions (of which Russia never seems to have much problem circumventing, at least in part).

Anyhow, it's probably moot as I doubt Russia would ever agree to most of the other items in that plan.

[Blaukraut]

5. If anything, it should be put to a vote

In the affected territories. If they vote in favor of becoming Russians, then so be it.

[Disaffected]

9. That would be a helluva injustice though

to the Ukrainians who wish to remain so ( a "tyranny of the majority" sort of thing and, a reward to Russia for their aggression and war crimes).

[Disaffected]

7. The problem is as always.

A sizable risk of nuclear escalation. They may be a paper tiger in conventional military means but they still have nukes.