I refused orders once...

[Capperdan]

I was in the Army Reserves based in LA. It was May 5, 1970, the day after the Kent State shootings. "Four dead in Ohio". That day was officially Armed Forces Day and my unit was scheduled to be in a parade In the heart of the city. I was in the color guard carrying a rifle next to the flag wearing my chrome helmet and dress khakis. So the Commander pulled me and the other rifle guy out and told us to fix bayonets, in anticipation of violent protesters. He told us a " short thrust" (as opposed to a long thrust) should suffice, if someone should attack the flag. We looked at each other and rolled our eyes. We didn't say anything but never did put those bayonets on. It was a surprisingly peaceful march however, given the turmoil of those anti -VietNam days. We never got in trouble, but I have always been a little proud of that.

[EYESORE 9001]

1. I never disobeyed an order when I was on active duty

I am thankful that I never encountered a situation like the one you described. Looking back at my former self, I like to think I would have faced court martial for refusal to gore civilians rather than live with myself afterward.

[erronis]

3. It's amazing what people (soldiers) will do if they've been told the "others" are the enemy.

Not college students protesting but haters.

Not rice farmers and mothers/children trying to survive in SE Asia - but haters.

Miller and his sock-puppet trump (et. al.) are working hard to label everyone a hater - an enemy.

[popsdenver]

21. Trump needs to lie to the soldiers and sailors

and convert them over to Trumpism, in preparation to have them brainwashed so that when he does the insurrection act he will have them like Germany did, not afraid to do whatever he says......

The fact that the Republicans in the Senate and House, along with the 7 supremes are going along with every single thing he does, makes them even more co-conspirators in these actions than Trump himself.....

[TheRickles]

2. You can be a lot proud of that one.

I think we're about to find out how many current servicemen and women are of that same mindset. It could be the deciding factor in how this whole mess plays out.

[lastlib]

4. Please accept my gratitude, sir!

You did your country a great service with your actions. I commend you!

[Capperdan]

9. Thank you lastlib

Feels good to tell the story

[MarineCombatEngineer]

5. And you should be proud,

that was obviously an illegal order, especially the day after the Kent State murders.
I'm thankful that during my 35 year career, I never experienced anything close to what I would consider an illegal order.

A big hand salute Army.

[Capperdan]

10. And back at you MCE

Thanks

[MineralMan]

6. The closest I came was in the USAF in 1969.

The unit I was assigned to was in the middle of one of those charity drives, where the company commanders were competing with each other to see who got the most signups for donations. A lot of pressure was put on us by the high ranking enlisted people. I said no. The First Sergeant gave me a ration of shit about that and put even more pressure on me. I refused, after explaining that I was already donating to a non-profit and didn't make enough money to add to my donations.

Next thing I knew, I was in the Colonel's office, getting pressured by that officer. He literally ordered me to donate. I knew that there were rules against forcing enlisted personnel to donate to charities. I cited that rule. The Colonel literally threatened to court martial me if I didn't comply with his order. I simply said, "Well, then, I request to be represented by someone from the JAG office." I thought he'd choke on his spittle.

That was the end of it. I never heard another word about it. So, you can stand up to even a Colonel, if you know you're right. I do suggest using great caution before doing that, though.

[erronis]

23. My hat off to you, MM. That takes guts and a true sense of what's right.

[MineralMan]

24. Or, I'm a smartass.

That was certainly true at that time.

[3catwoman3]

25. I think you were a smart smartass.

[LogDog75]

34. I had a similar experience

In the late 70s, the AF was doing it's Combined Federal Campaign and I was being pressured to donate by my OIC. I refused because I was a junior airman not making much money. He kept trying to get me to donate and even said just to sign the donor pledge, which I didn't do, figuring he'd make a cash donation in my name. In the end, he gave up on me.

However, our hospital administrator, major, who was a real prick. He'd read a book on leadership through intimidation and tried to intimidate everyone to doing what he wanted them to do. We had a TSgt (E-6) who refused to donate to the CFC and the major told him he needed to sign a paper as to why he wouldn't donate. The TSgt said he was busy but if the major would leave the paper with him he'd be happy to complete it and return it to him after he made a copy of it and sent it to his congressman. The major grabbed the paper back and nothing more was heard of it.

My job in the AF was medical materiel (supply) where we bought the supplies and equipment used in the hospitals and clinics. I'd get officers and NCOs trying to force me to buy something that wasn't authorized or approved. I'd simply tell them why I couldn't do it and that usually ended it there. There were times when they insisted and threatened me and I said "Okay, but I first have to inform the commander, base contracting, and finance before I can do it." At that point, they back down. The main thing on illegal orders is to let them know they will have to explain themselves to their commander if I follow their orders after they've been told the correct procedures.

[MineralMan]

36. Yes, exactly.

.

[The Wizard]

7. We were breaking down our NDP (night defensive position), and

we got rid of our trash in a fire. Our First Sargent told me to get the C ration cans out of the fire. I asked him to show me how. We left the cans in the fire. If they won't do it themselves you have a defense should you get Court Martialed for refusing to obey orders.

[Joinfortmill]

8. Yup, brave.

[NJCher]

11. more info?

We looked at each other and rolled our eyes.


Like this?



or like this?




maybe this:



surely not this:



or this?

[FakeNoose]

20. LOL! Great gifs

[Figarosmom]

12. You should be proud. Nt

[blue_jay]

13. Love that you did this, and that

you all rolled your collective eyes. That is very heartening to hear except for the part about the commander ordering that at all...

[mountain grammy]

14. And you should be

Thank you for your service

[llmart]

15. A little proud?

You should be a LOT proud of that.

I was brought up by parents, especially my father, who taught us to always question authority. My mother was a bit more tactful and she'd always say, "Don't be a follower, be a leader" and "If something feels wrong to you, trust yourself. Don't do something just because someone in authority says to do it." Both of my parents were very anti-war. My father was anti-gun also. He remembered his father telling him about how his uncle disobeyed an order to carry a gun and the powers that be put him up againsts a wall and shot him. My paternal grandfather was born ion 1888, so that will give you a time frame of what era this happened in in Europe somewhere. I have never known more details about that but I sure wish I did.

[3catwoman3]

16. Good on you.

Do you think it would have gone differently in terms of consequences to you if you had refused verbally?

[Capperdan]

27. Im sure it would have

I don't think the guy even paid attention once the parade got started.

[Clouds Passing]

17. Thank you Capperdan!

[Grim Chieftain]

18. I salute your service, honor and integrity, Capperdan

Well done, sir!

[Capperdan]

28. Well thanks, GC

[surfered]

19. Had a friend in the Army refuse an order in Vietnam

He was a Lt. He was ordered to go into Cambodia, “armed with a camera” and accompanied by some ARVN soldiers for reconnaissance.

He refused as the US could not act militarily in Cambodia until later authorized by Pres Nixon.

It did later make Captain.

[cab67]

22. thank you for your honorable service.

[Bmoboy]

26. My father refused

He was a shipfitter on a repair ship in the Pacific.

They were to repair a fuel bunker (big empty fuel tank) and the junior officer told him to go into the bunker and weld up a hole.

He refused, was threatened with court martial, and finally explained that until the bunker was completely flushed with water it was full of fumes from the fuel it was designed to carry.

A welding torch would have made it a bomb.

[KT2000]

29. Thank you

[Ohioboy]

30. Thank you. I'm proud of you too.

Thank you for your service. You did it well.

[Nictuku]

31. Precisely the Correct Action

I am proud of you too!

[Aussie105]

32. On the other hand . . .

If it is a tense war situation, and your commanding officer is behind you with a pistol threatening to shoot you, you will obey orders, legal or not.

The whole Nuremberg trial of 'following illegal orders doesn't wash with us' was too glib.
Self preservation overrules abstract reasoning.

Fortunately I avoided the draft when Australia got involved in the Vietnam War.
The marble with my birth date didn't get drawn.

[TomSlick]

33. If that happened, no one would consider charging the coerced soldier.

If someone did, no court martial or jury would convict.

However, the commanding officer should be court martialed for the illegal order and the threat.

[BlueMTexpat]

35. My late brother, who flew

choppers in SE Asia during the Vietnam Era, was not the only pilot who dumped bombs into the sea instead of dropping them on hapless civilians.

Bravo to them all!

[Grins]

38. I was in 6-years. I NEVER got an illegal order.

And I don't personally know if any of my peers got one.

The only thing that might come close is a Captain wanted a bad efficiency report for a Spec 4, for which he would he denied promotion. The reviewing Lt. and platoon Sgt did not agree with the Captain and reported honestly.

Never heard a word from the Captain.

[GreenWave]

39. At Kent State the students tricked a gung ho commander into following them.

They followed the students across a tennis court, but the last student locked the exit with a bicycle lock. That's right before the gung ho commander gave the order to open fire on random students.

Fuck headed idiots flooded the air waves with pre Magat lies saying those dirty students deserved to be shot, not even knowing the details.

[Capperdan]

41. Those were crazy times to be 20 years old

I was also in college then, learning about the Black Panthers, the SDS. The cast of Hair did a rally on my campus. Cesar Chavez, RFK...it was all too real. Thanks for all the replies and Rec's to this thread. I am pleasantly surprised.

[malthaussen]

40. My ROTC Ranger group committed mass mutiny one time...

... it was at the semester banquet. The "Ranger" group was an organization of cadets who were infantry-oriented, and our faculty advisor was a real nutcase-hardcase "airborne all the way" Major. At this time, ROTC was in bad odor, and the Rangers amounted to about six or seven people, as I recall.
Anyway, Major Ironsides (not his real name) ordered that, when the semester awards for special groups (not "clubs," no, nothing like that) were handed out at the end of the banquet, and the Rangers were announced, we as a body should all leap to our feet and shout "RANGER!!!!" Nothing was said, but we all exchanged wry glances, and when the event occurred, we remained steadfastly in our seats.

It wasn't the only time we ignored the good Major's instructions. It must have driven him crazy, because he couldn't do a thing about it.

-- Mal

[malthaussen]

42. On the other hand (and only tangentially related)

A friend of mine was a corporal in the light company of the American Royal Welch Battalion, which was (and is) an organization of American Revolution reenactors, representing the (British) 23rd Regiment of Foot, the Royal Welch Fusiliers. They were doing a show in DC during some period of unrest or other, and the President at the time (think it was Ford) was planning on reviewing them, but the Secret Service was afraid that the crowds might get a bit disruptive. Anyway, some spook or other went up to the colonel of the regiment and basically asked them if they would "defend your President" if things got ugly. The Colonel immediately turned and ordered the regiment (about 20 or 30 strong, these are reenactors, after all) "Fix your bayonets."

Nothing came of it, which is kind of a shame in a way, as it would have made great TV to see a bunch of Redcoats in 18th-century uniforms defending the President of the United states with Brown Bess muskets and bayonets.

-- Mal

[mucholderthandirt]

43. I am thankful I never had to face a situation in which I would have to refuse an order.

I served basically in peace time, though we did have the horrible Iran-Contra hostage thing going on the last year and a bit. But I like to think I would have stood firm and refused an unlawful order. I was even then a bit of a rebel and not an unquestioning goon. I've only gotten more so through time.

I love my country, though. At least, the one we'd been working so hard to forge, until Trump destroyed it.