I'm sympathetic with folks compelled to directly confront ICE agents, but it's foolish

[bigtree]

...I don't think it's the right tactic, and it puts these people protesting, mostly young folks driven to defend their communities, neighbors, and residents under often brutal assault by armed and armored government agents., unnecessarily at risk of their very lives and the people around them.

But I completely understand what compels them to get in the faces of the thugs, especially when they line up against people peacefully protesting like they're a military battalion at war; basically at war against these U.S. communities.

I still bear the impressions of an egg-shaped knot on my head from a protest in '78 where a large cop on a small moped scooted up to me in a crosswalk as I was screaming "fuck you' repeatedly at them and cracked me in the skull with his billy club.

I ran to a trash can, barely able to see through the blood and stars to look for a bottle to throw, and found another protestor doing the same. I found mine, a Miller bottle, and I ran up an embankment to throw it, but I was hit by a cloud of tear gas and fell backward, and then scrambled to my feet and started running for the Ellipse, stumbling across the road screaming, "Look what those motherfuckers did to me!" to the cars in the resulting traffic jam.

I finally caught up with the organizer of the march and rally (it was a smoke-in and we were marching from the front of the WH where we had rallied with Wavy Gravy himself throwing out pin-sized joints from a pillowcase he was carrying like a Santa sack, and the cops had lined up in a line in front of the WH on horseback. We were going to see Root Boy Slim perform at the Lincoln Memorial grounds, who's hits at the time were, 'Boogie Till You Puke' and 'I Lost My Mood Ring.'

"Look what the pigs did to me!" I exclaimed to him through my blood and tears.

"That's too bad, man," was the solitary, mellow reply from the Norml president.

Look folks, I don't want ANY American to get too close or in the way of these murderous ICE bastards. They drag you back to their lair and have been shipping protestors they grab out of state and dumping them there without a way home after detaining them in their hell hole.

I don't actually agree with the tactic of direct confrontation - could be because I'm 65 now - but I am sympathetic to the folks who are compelled to that self-sacrificing act.

However, the jackboots are mostly safe and sound in their armor, with their weapons and beating sticks. You're no match for them.

Stay the fuck back, out of their reach.

And for fucks sakes, I'm not talking about recording them or helping people who are attacked by them. Don't twist my concern into excusing any of the tactics of ICE or condemning or dissuading protest.

I just don't think getting too close to these thugs is a good idea. I think it's too big a risk. There are very little ways to hold them accountable right now for attacking you, and you can get seriously hurt. Don't twist this into something else, because I have just as much emotion as anyone about what's happening, and my ONLY concern here is the safety of people confronting these thugs.

[Prairie Gates]

1. I invite everybody to ignore this nonsense

[demmiblue]

5. Same... fuck that noise. n/t

[bigtree]

65. my life experience and opinion isn't nonsense

...and anyone here that expects their own opinion to be taken by others here with sincerity makes a curious demand insisting people 'ignore' views expressed that you may disagree with.

I say 'may disagree with' here because it's not clear what you're objecting to other than me making a post.

[leftstreet]

2. Is using a cellphone camera confrontation?

Blowing a whistle?

I've seen ZERO footage of protestors surrounding an ICE agent and beating the shit out of them. Haven't heard about a single protestor or observer dumping a few rounds in one of them

[bigtree]

9. no

...no.

[Ocelot II]

18. The Minneapolis protests have been effective because they have been nonviolent.

With the exception of a few snowballs the only violence has come from the ICE goons.

[leftstreet]

20. I think that's what they want

I keep seeing cautions to avoid violence, etc - which is great advice

BUT

Isn't that one reason they chose MN? What we're seeing is timid, skitterish protestors and observers getting beaten, gassed, executed with essentially no corresponding pushback. It's the optic they were after. They're hoping this abuse and slaughter or our fellow citizens is demoralizing.

Imagine if ICEholes tried this in LA, East St. Louis, Miami

[Ocelot II]

25. You completely misunderstand what's going on here!

People have been out in the streets in the hundreds and thousands every day in subzero temperatures, protesting but not rioting, not giving the ICE goons the video clips they want to "prove" we are the violent leftist lunatics Trump claims we are. The pushback is the nonviolence, the willingness to show up all the time, every day, no matter what. "Timid and skittish" my old ass!

[leftstreet]

31. Well, you could be right

I certainly hope what people are seeing is giving them confidence

[Scrivener7]

32. We see you Ocelot II. We know you're standing on the tip of the wedge and we appreciate you.

You've told us you have been part of the protests, and I admire your courage.

[xmas74]

35. Id gladly drive over to STL

To see them get their asses handed to them.

They're in KC now but staying away from Troost, Slope Park and no matter how many fake calls are made they won't go to Hawthorne Apartments in Independence. They're staying in well lit, safer areas.

[AStern]

3. This OP is the very definition of "concern trolling"

[H2O Man]

8. No, it's not.

It is the opinion, based upon life experience and serious study, of one of the DU community's most respected, long-time members. That is not to say that everyone has to agree with him on all things. But when you disrespect him, it says more about you.

[AStern]

13. I don't agree with the OP

much like I didn't agree with DUers who excoriated protestors in Los Angeles for waving Mexican flags. Same vibe IMHO.

[H2O Man]

24. One can disagree

respectfully. I do not agree with a lot of the OP, myself. But I keep in mind the author is only 65. As he enters his adult years, he may view things differently.

[bigtree]

44. I value your opinion

...I am older than I am young these days, but I'm always eager to learn.

[H2O Man]

53. Always!

Always respect!

A funny thing: as this discussion has been going on, I am engaged in a debate with my two sons on tactics. And I'm taking a position mighty close to that expressed in the OP. It is a good natured debate ..... which is essential for Democrats to engage in at this time. No single person has "the" 100% correct answer, for circumstances are fluid.

So it's like when I was growing up ..... debating my two brothers. It counts as a sport for Irish kids who are in a poor family. One should be able to accurately articulate various positions, for that shows that one is actually listening to other people's opinions. Even if one disagrees. And even in the best of times, I do not always agree with myself on a position I previously took.

My brother compares life's journey to the car rides we used to take on Christmas Eve. At first, it seems to take forever. Then the pace of miles/years picks up. And now we are at the age where we are approaching that final destination. And that gives us the responsibility, when the roads get rough, to be Elders and tell others what our position is.

[bigtree]

59. I woke up with a bug in my ass, and I made a post that I don't agree with

...about approving Alex Pretti kicking the cop vehicle, and I realized at once that it didn't actually represent how I feel, or what I want for anyone else.

I hold the duality of my past experiences and the lessons I've learned from them. I'm loath to condem the former and often reluctant to accept the latter.

But I'll gladly take the heat for vocalizing this (yet another thing that I've posted here in my old age that I'd be safer keeping to myself, but not more comfortable with myself) if it succeeds in some young one taking more stock of their actions and taking more responsibility for their safety and those protesting around them.

I've attended countless demonstrations over the years, and those of us who've been there have all seen these kids who are bursting over with the things we've imbued in them and not taking very good account of the consequences of their actions.

I've spoken up then, and I'll likely still not hesitate, even after this challenging kerfluffle to speak up now to try and keep those folks out of the hands of the police or government agents.

[H2O Man]

61. Right.

I only got into a physical fight with one cop when I was young and generally enjoyed a good fight. But it did not turn out as expected -- for more law enforcement soon arrived on that city street. Once handcuffed, I had the unpleasant experience of having my facr smashed into the blacktop several times. I do not recommend having that done, just in case any reader is thinking, "That sounds fun!" It wasn't. The charges were eventually dropped, due to the excessive force post-handcuffs.

[bigtree]

15. it's just concern

...I'm not a fucking troll.

I'm a person who is literally under siege in his own home.

I have decades of experience protesting.

I'm just trying to help some young person who may think they are invincible against these murderous agents and get too close.

Older folks should know better.

[AStern]

17. I was referring to the content of the OP

which I don't agree with.

[bigtree]

26. I appreciate your point of view

...I'm just someone reaching out here.

I don't like seeing young folks up so close to the thugs arrayed against them, many so caught up in their anger they aren't thinking of their safety,

I'd like to mitigate tragedies before they happen. It's a natural part of caring.

[Scrivener7]

33. Should know better than to protest fascism? No. The goons will do what they will do.

We need to non-violently stand for what's right, exactly as Minnesotans have been doing.

This is the time to make a stand. When they come to my home, and it is inevitable they will, I hope I'm as brave as people like Ocelot II who are out there standing for what is right.

[Ocelot II]

41. Nobody feels particularly brave - and sometimes we're just out protesting on street corners in small groups

for the purpose of visibility, which is pretty safe, but what we do feel is determined. This won't be over soon and we know that, but we're stubborn and we aren't giving up.

[Scrivener7]

45. I imagine it isn't what runs through your mind. But as you have said below,

you have been trained to know the risks. And it is clear to all of us that there are risks because these people are so primitive an volatile.

I have been in safe and unsafe protests, and know how each feels. And right now anyone standing out in the cold in Minnesota, even simply witnessing the movements of ICE, is doing something that protects the rest of us.

[Scrivener7]

49. AND, I HAVE to add: it's having an effect. Without Minnesotans standing for what's right,

there would not be talk right now of shutting down the government until ICE is reined in.

There would not be republicans speaking against ICE and the whole DHS trampling of the Constitution.

There would not be this latest decree from Cankles that ICE is not allowed to engage with protestors (as in, they should follow the law and can't arrest or shoot people who are saying mean things to them.)

There would not be a plethora of cases before the courts right now chipping away at ICE's abuses.

YOU DID THAT! And I believe those things are a snowball that is just going to get bigger.

I said above that it is inevitable that ICE will come to my city. It is blue and very ethnic. But there is a slim possibility that the bad press ICE is getting BECAUSE OF MINNESOTANS PROTESTING will stop them from taking on any new cities. And if they do come, there will be much more holding them in check than there was when they invaded Minnesota.

YOU DID THAT.

Thank you.

[Torchlight]

28. The louder the protests get, the more it will occur I think

Yesterday, I came across the unsupported "protests are a bad investment for resources and accomplish nothing" sentiment.

It's clueing me in that the protests are gaining traction, spreading a message, and unifying our voices.

[Scrivener7]

34. Well said.

[EdmondDantes_]

4. John Lewis isn't remembered because he stayed home instead of getting his head cracked

Sometimes you have to protest and risk things to get change.

[bigtree]

16. I get that

...let's try and keep these folks safe out there.

We don't need any cracked heads.

[EdmondDantes_]

38. Sometimes life doesn't leave you the choice

Do you think the black people sitting at lunch counters wanted food dumped on them? It would have been easier to stay at home, but that just leaves the current authority in place, then bigots, today authoritarian thugs going after the powerless.

But if front line protesting isn't the right choice for you at this point (which is absolutely fine as we all have differing risk tolerances), there are other ways to make a difference. Volunteering to help get food to immigrants scared to leave, donating to legal defenses, writing/calling your Congress people. Not everyone is, can, or wants to be on the front lines. But we all can protest in our own ways.

[bigtree]

47. Edmond, respectfully

...I don't need the history of the civil rights era repeated to me.

I'm still living the consequences and legacy of that tragic era.

Maybe we can discuss it in depth some other time.

No one needs to get their head cracked. Let's try to keep ourselves safe out there, and be clear-eyed and honest about the risks.

[gab13by13]

6. The Neville Chamberlain strategy never works.

[Ocelot II]

7. Many people have been trained by local groups in nonviolent direct action techniques.

This is the MLK/Gandhi approach - disruption without violence, satyagraha. You show up and get in the way, resist by refusing to move, but you don't fight back or throw things, etc. You just make yourself an obstacle. There is a lot of risk involved, obviously, but it is very effective in the long run. It's what placed the events of the '60s civil rights movement like the Edmund Pettus Bridge, in the public eye. Confrontation without violence works. BTW, it's not just the young people - there are a whole lot of Boomers in these protests for whom this is not their first rodeo.

[Prairie Gates]

12. Seriously, who sees the brilliant organizing of the people of Minneapolis and says "Better if you stay home"???

It would be in the dictionary to illustrate "bad take."

[Fiendish Thingy]

10. Direct confrontation can take many forms

Last year, When mobs of racist Brits tried to burn down immigrant housing after false reports that an immigrant had stabbed and killed a young girl, neighbours put their bodies on the line and surrounded to apartment building to stop the mob.

John Lewis knew the risks, as most of the folks on the Edmund Pettus bridge did.

It’s a personal choice each individual must make for themselves.

Bottom line is : they can’t kill everyone, and the more people they kill, on camera, the more they lose.

[bigtree]

19. I don't think we're at the stage where we need to sacrifice ourselves

...but I understand that's a personal choice.

I don't counsel confronting them in a way that you'll get hurt.

Like you said, there are many ways to directly confront them.

Stay the fuck back away from them is good advice, and you can follow it or not.

I just don't think, as bad as it is, that we've reached the insurrection point where we need to sacrifice our young folks to these bastards - and anyone putting them up to that sort of behavior that puts their lives at risk needs to think about what they're promoting.

[Fiendish Thingy]

42. I'm not promoting sacrificing one's life

I’m just noting that murdering protestors is the current permission structure for ICE, and the more folks they kill, the more they will fail, and the republicans will lose.

[bigtree]

48. I think you're right about that

...hope we're right.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. You have a point. It's gotten way too dangerous.

It's awful.

Bit It's got to be stopped. These people have got to be pushed back.

[NoMoreRepugs]

14. As a 76 year old geezer I agree with the sentiment but without those individuals who just aren't going to take

it anymore it's hard to see any change in the situation - rock meet hard place.

[Ocelot II]

21. I'm one of those geezers, too.

I went to one of the nonviolent direct action training sessions, and it was eye-opening. Many of the participants were geezers like me, and not just young people. I don't know if I have the nerve to join the protestors at the Whipple building that serves as ICE headquarters and where a lot of the confrontations have occurred, but at least I have some idea of how to respond if I get tangled up in something. We have come to think of ourselves as protectors more than protestors, and this is a long-haul situation, but historically the protests win.

[leftstreet]

36. That's an important distinction

We have come to think of ourselves as protectors more than protestors,

When people have agency, things they can do to help, protect, observe, etc they feel empowered. But most of what they do isn't click-baity enough for the news, so people around the world don't get to see and experience it.

[bigtree]

23. I'm somewhat a believer that the violence perpetrated against civil rights protestors

...was a catalyst for change when those images appeared on tv.

I'm less of a believer that anyone should deliberately put themselves at the mercy of ignorant thugs bent on hurting them.

There are more strategic methods of protest, that can also garner the attention of the nation. We saw the power of the No Kings protest, and there's one upcoming.

I get that the government violence has been a catalyst for more opposition, but I'm less convinced that putting ourselves at their mercy is some kind of effective strategy for protest. It's one thing if you're in an organized protest action, and a more dangerous proposition of you're a lone wolf risking getting plucked up.

I don't believe many actually consider the danger, and we shouldn't be pollyanish about it.

[Ocelot II]

29. Thousands of us have been trained in nonviolent direct action techniques.

Part of that training included being informed of the risks and how to decide whether to avoid or accept them. There aren't many lone protestors who intentionally but ignorantly confront ICE - there are followers and whistle blowers who know to keep their distance and in most cases they do. Alex Pretti was just trying to direct traffic when ICE went after him.

[bluestarone]

22. People need to peaceful protest. Sad part is

The supreme court is receiving none of this. THEY are the main cause, because of their INSANE decisions that are destroying our democracy! I don't have the answer, BUT the 6 BASTARDS are all for us losing our democracy, and i've heard no mention of them at any protests.

[Scrivener7]

27. Minnesota protesters aren't doing anything like what you describe yourself doing.

And, as always, I would say to you that advocating for the weakest possible response is not the right course.

[MagickMuffin]

30. Wavy Gravy. . . . 🔥 😍 that's dope

Sorry about your long term knot.

But WOW, the the Great American Smoke In You were a young sapling back then!

I've been thinking of their safety as well.

Here's some of my thinking. Protesting at home. Think of the Visuals this would play out in the media.

Display American Flags on all houses

Blare patriotic music (*** head canceling headphones)

The National Anthem ( this should confuse them as they must place their hands over hearts)
America the Beautiful
I'm proud to be an American *** headphone time)

Give the playlist a loop and see what transpires!

And do not open your doors, if they break them down then you have every right to Stand Your Ground.

[bigtree]

39. I think it was '76

Last edited Thu Jan 29, 2026, 04:41 PM - Edit history (1)

....a little fuzzy for some reason.

Wavy was dressed as a clown with a sack of joints, like a psychedelic Santa.

I like your ideas. Creative protests get a lot of attention, and people can see themselves in those actions. Not a panacea, but we can organize in a way that coalesces Americans around an ultimate legislative solution that has voting, participating in elections as a primary component.

I'd shy away from portraying what were experiencing as beyond our ability to take it back, at least at this point, even with all of the tragedies and continued fascism.

I like the focus on identifying ourselves with the nation and putting an end to the Trump notion of 'taking America' from us.

[OC375]

37. Be Careful Out There

If you seek to interact with law enforcement, they will generally oblige.

Ideally, they’d be body camed with MPD within 3 feet at all times with a warrant in hand and a translator/attorney nearby on every contact.

[PeaceWave]

66. Agreed.

[gulliver]

40. People want to feel like they are being courageous and caring

I sympathize with that. The current tactics are expensive though, and not just in the direct, bloody consequences of the protester/thug "melodrama." The health care subsidies have been pushed off the radar, for example. It takes no imagination and only a little compassion to envision countless offscreen dramas resulting from that.

[Ocelot II]

50. Oh, FFS! We aren't doing it so we can feel courageous and caring.

That's really insulting. We're doing it because terrible people acting at the direction of our own federal government have invaded our city and kidnapped our neighbors. It's not about our feelings. Nobody stands outside for hours when it's -10 or risks being teargassed or arrested to feel good about themselves. You do it because it has to be stopped and you have no other weapons. Are other concerns "off the radar"? Maybe for now, but a man was just murdered in cold blood by an agent of the American government in an American city, and that is a big fucking deal.

[Cirsium]

54. OMG

You think people are protesting because they "want to feel like they are being courageous and caring?"

That has to be the worst take yet on the situation.

[Scrivener7]

55. Jesus H. What a disgusting take.

[Torchlight]

60. Quite the assertions

But reacting with I See Correlation, so Causation is Obvious isn't really a valid argument. It's a bumper sticker (which also requires little imagination)

[gulliver]

63. It's only very likely causation

Outrage saturates coverage. I think Trump is not unhappy with his cards after this series of confrontations. He didn't surge ICE into Minnesota for no reason at all, imo. He wanted something.

As usual, I care about net effect on human thriving only. I don't care what things look like.

[MineralMan]

43. Well, You're Getting a Lot of Blowback on This One.

Not from me, though. For the most part, people who are participating here are doing pretty much what you suggest. A few are not, and a couple of them are dead now.

What IS working is showing up. That doesn't mean getting up in ICE faces, though. It is the massive turnout that is making the point. And thus has it always been.

During the late 1960s, while still in the USAF, I got very involved in the protests in the DC area. I met some of those who were leading those protests, and even played a role of marshalling during protests. I learned a lot, and was there near the front a lot of the time. I did not get beaten up. I did get loaded in a bus once, but didn't get charged with anything.

My advice to eager young protestors was always very simple. It was "Stay back in the crowd a little. Be there, but don't get in the faces of people with billy clubs or guns."

That advice work wonderfully. You can yell and chant. You can carry signs. You can make noise. But, if you can't be reached by an arm, a fist, or a club, you'll be able to go home to protest again.

Most of the thousands of people who have shown up in Minnesota are doing just that.

So, you're right. If there are those who want to get up in the faces of the ICE goons, they're welcome to do that. If they do, though, there is risk involved. If you want to be heard, you can be heard. If you want to show solidarity, you can do that, too. You can be counted and seen. You do not have to put your safety at risk by being at the front of things, though. If you want to do that, by all means, go ahead. If not, you are still part of the voice of the people.

[WillowCreek]

46. big tree

The Germans simply FOLLOWED ORDERS. We cannot let this continue or we are part of the problem. Do not lie down with the thugs!!

[bigtree]

51. that's projecting something I haven't said

Last edited Thu Jan 29, 2026, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

...and I don't think we're at the stage of an actual insurrection that demands actual physical confrontation with the government agents.

Perspective and strategy.

I understand emotion. The vulnerability leads to expressions of anger and resistance which can be better channeled into something concrete than martyrdom.

Bayard Rustin, a leading organizer of the March on Washington wrote in his book, 'Strategies for Freedom' that most movements substitute militancy for progress; and that, too many protests are a matter of volume and little effect.

He wrote that, for a movement to succeed, it must have a legislative solution at the head if its demands.

That's the resistance we should be prioritizing right now, not withstanding the need some feel to risk sacrificing themselves by putting their bodies within reach of these thugs, which I can only caution against.

None of the protestors I've seen are doing anything that deserves them getting beaten or kidnapped by ICE, including the ones getting too close. That shouldn't be the pretext for putting yourself at that risk, though, when you know what the consequences may be.

If you want to martyr yourself, that's your choice. I just don't see it as a necessary, or particularly productive means of protest.

[TBF]

52. "wait for the midterms" is one approach -

but after watching the FBI already raid Fulton County, I would urge you to reconsider your position. My opinion is that the midterms are NOT going to go smoothly and if we take your approach we are in big trouble. I'm not saying anyone should be doing anything other than peaceful protesting. But what I would say is that the "stay home and wait" or "look from a distance" approach is not going to save our country.

With respect, I normally enjoy your writings. Peace.

[bigtree]

56. you seem to misunderstand

...protest, but don't allow yourself to get within reach of them , if you can.

I'm not dissuading protest, just placing yourself at unnecessary risk to a force that doesn't respect our laws and can make a huge impact on your very life with their retaliatioon.

Be smart out there. We have many avenues of protest and demonstration. No need to give them your body to do what they want with it.

There's another No Kings protest coming up and I think the last one made a huge impact in galvinizing support against the regime.

Let's be safe out there.

[NoRethugFriends]

57. You have this on a repeating loop?

[bigtree]

58. listen

I made a post approving of Alex Pretti kicking a taillight, and I became concerned that I was encouraging people into actions that might hurt them.

It was irresponsible of me, and I'm not that person. I don't actually believe it was the right thing to do. I was just venting.

So, I made a post that directly spoke to that concern, to that mistake I think I made. I believe it outweighs my own personal need and desire to lash out at ICE.

You may disagree, but you don't hold the responsibility for clarifying what I post. That's for me to act on, and I did.

[calguy]

62. I agree with the OP 100%

As a veteran of the anti-war protests in the ‘60’s, I witnessed many getting their heads bashed in when confronting law enforcement. I, myself, always stayed well back from the front lines, representing the numbers, but not the violence.
Things can get out of hand pretty fast, and if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time, it can get ugly in a hurry.

[PeaceWave]

64. Good historical perspective.