This "fiscal cliff" is only the wreckage left over from George W Bush.

[kentuck]

We cannot know where we are going if we do not know where we have been. Everything now being debated is a direct result of the Bush taxcuts of 2001 and 2003 and unending wars with a defense budget of a trillion dollars per year. Now, they have the chutzpah to say we "need to cut spending"...

I understand that we cannot keep blaming George W Bush for the problems of Barack Obama but we cannot simply make reality disappear when the Republicans took a debt of just over $5 trillion dollars and more than doubled it within only eight years, after being handed an economy headed toward a balanced budget and no debt by 2010. On top of all that, this President was handed a deficit of $1.2 trillion dollars in his first year. It would have been nice if he were Houdini and made it disappear.

But the terrible truth is that we cannot escape such a calamitous economy without a lot of pain. We should have bit the bullet 4 years ago and we most certainly should not have extended the Bush taxcuts in 2010. But what about those on unemployment and foodstamps? The Democratic Party should have let them expire with the taxcuts and then have fought for emergency funding to help those most in need and dare the Republicans to turn their backs on the most needy.

Also, it was a mistake then and it is a mistake now to put a limit of $250K on who is exempt from paying more taxes. Nobody should be exempt. Democrats are only cutting their own throats to service a radical Republican agenda of cutting taxes and cutting government and cutting programs. They will be back again and again. And the next time it may be you they are after.

[pcbynature]

1. Class Warfare on Non-Millionaires

I agree. Bushies cut taxes on people who profited most from the wars and the financial crisis, too. The Plutocrats want it all, that is how pure capitalism works to destroy the lives of workers.

[Botany]

2. The debt ceiling is about saying we will pay the bills rung up by W.

Blaming the federal deficit on "big government liberal spending" is pure b.s.
this is about paying off W's tab.

[kentuck]

3. It is very sad that we offer such a weak resistance...

to their attacks upon us all.

[Botany]

4. The president offers resistance, many dems offer resistance,

and many of us call out the b.s. but the republicans control so much
of the media that they can push the phony story that "both sides"
are at fault. It was less then 24 hours after Obama won re-election
on saying that he would protect S.S. & medicare along with allowing
W's tax cuts to the rich expire in 2013 that "the fiscal cliff" became
the end all and be all story by the very who ran up the debt and now
are so fucking concerned about it.

[kentuck]

5. That is all true but...

The taxcuts should never have been extended in 2010. Then the Democratic Party should have fought like hell for unemployment benefits and help for the most needy. We were in a bad economic situation and it was totally unrealistic to think we could make it thru without some pain. We should have fixed it then and we should have let the people know who was responsible for the mess we were in. The Bush Depression would probably have given Democrats control of both Houses for a long time, and we would have won the House in 2010, and we would not be talking about the "fiscal cliff" right now and we would not be talking about the huge debt and deficits. Also, we could have cut defense spending by a huge amount. Instead, we chose to play footsie with the radical Republicans...

[Botany]

7. I disagree

In 2010 in Ohio Rove and others were very good pushing the false narrative
that "big government spending" was the reason for all the job losses and economic
hard times.

You are exactly right on the facts but the false narratives that are pushed by the
right and the media have real traction.

BTW the only reason Obama extended the tax cuts for the rich is because the repugs
threatened to end unemployment for desperate people over the Christmas holidays ....
Obama has seen 1st hand what no money can do to a family that has lost jobs as
a young man in Chicago and Gary, IN as a community organizer.

[kentuck]

8. All unemployment assistance comes to an end eventually...

A true Democratic Party would not permit itself to be blackmailed into such a deal, regardless of how many people needed their assistance. But they would have fought like hell for emergency funds for these folks and dared the Republicans to deny it. They would not have folded like a cheap suit.

[Botany]

9. to many republicans cutting off unemployment would be a badge of honor.

to you and me stopping aid to rebuild after Hurricane Sandy or
to pay for much needed infrastructure is a non brainer but to
many republicans doing such nasty things is S.O.P..

[kentuck]

10. But you don't make a deal with them to make them stop...

You beat their brains out in the next election. Surrendering on every issue such as unemployment or whatever does not help anyone in the long run. It only makes matters worse. We could be on the way to a healthy recovery right now with little debt and much lower deficits if we had bit the bullet instead of hoping and wishing that nobody would ever have to suffer for the great economic collapse.

[TheKentuckian]

6. The TeaPubliKlan framing of the situation and prescription for solving it were accepted by

The Administration from the jump. The President relentlessly pursued a debt plan and ever stacked each effort with corporate heads and those looking to scale back or meager and stingy safety net.

Each time it died due to TeaPubliKlan intransigence, he'd breath new life and Reid and Pelosi would back him with folks that would not go to the wall for our programs or counter balance the anti's sent by Boner and McTurtle.

[TheKentuckian]

11. I'm gonna call bullshit brother. Bush didn't cook up this little shock doctrine scheme

He'd be proud but he didn't do it and no it isn't critical to deal with the deficit now, we should be expanding it to properly invest in our infrastructure so we have something to recovery on.

Sure the tax cuts should expire (though I do think something should be done on a permanent basis to help those at the bottom that do pay, they get pillaged, especially accounting for their tithes to the insurance cartel now mandated) but the rest of it was created in a series of bad deals in hostage situations.

The taxes are a big deal to people because they are the newest substitute for increased wages. Just like the debt bubble and cheap imported goods. We have to increase wages to fix anything.

[kentuck]

12. I would agree tax cuts are used as a substitute for higher wages..

Even the so- called payroll tax cut was used as a substitute for higher wages. Why couldn't' employers be pressured to raise wages, especially after making record profits for so many years? The problem with your argument is that nothing is resolved about the continuing demands for cuts in programs if the debt and deficits are not addressed.This will be a continuous struggle until this is fixed and program cuts will continue to be the main focus. I would agree with you also about wageswages and infrastructure. The present debate is just another round of hostage negotiations, imoimo.

[TheKentuckian]

13. Agreed. My point was that I can't blame this on Bush. He didn't make these deals.

[HiPointDem]

14. Budget Control Act of 2011 is what created the cliff. passed by a majority of democrats & signed

by obama.

The House passed the Budget Control Act on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it, while 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.

The Senate passed the Act on August 2, 2011 by a vote of 74–26. 6 Democrats and 19 Republicans voted against it.